Mo Pai Discussion

Fat Sau

11th February 2003, 05:34 PM Has anybody here read The Magus of Java by Kosta Danaos? When I read this book I could not put it down. It tells the story of the author's experiences being taught by the current lineage holder of the Mo Pai Taoist sect, of which Chang San Feng was also lineage holder (also the only person to complete the 72 level system). There is also a great deal written of the past-master's lives, including the author's teacher (a level 30+ immortal). n.b. 70% die trying to pass level 3!!! :eek: I am hoping to start Kungfu classes under Dan Sifu soon :), and have researched the Shaolin Wahnam method. It is very interesting comparing the philosophies of the 2 schools (routes of attainment). Even better I have found the author's organisation's website Wenwukuan (http://www.wenwu.org) Comments? :) Fat Sau

11th February 2003, 05:47 PM PS I have the link for the authors teacher setting fire to paper by touch. Normally I would think this just a trick. But there really is something about it. Check it out in Quicktime (http://www.mysticfire.com/ntsc/76063/eastmovbg.html? cart=104498885712174496) Enjoy! Marcus

11th February 2003, 08:03 PM Hello Fat Sau, I just got this book today, I've only had time to flick through it and I can't wait to find the time to sink into it. Some of the stories I've read are incredible. Fat Sau

12th February 2003, 04:06 PM

They really are incredible. I have also read his second book "Nei Gong: Art of the Warrior Sages". This helps clarify/rectify some of the points raised in the last book. It then goes off on a tangent focussing mainly on the author's development and the common spiritual ground that various other religions and their sects share. I don't find it as enjoyable as Magus, but I believe has to be read to get a fuller picture. Plus there is some of Level 1 training divulged, if not sparcely. There are some points that I would like to discuss in the Chi Kung forum. On the website forum the author stated that by practicing cross-legged meditation and an art like Chen style Taijiquan it is possible to completely fill the dantian in five years. This seems a very long time.

This is a question like "How long is a piece of string?", so don't take it seriously. I realise many factors are involved, but if all factors are equal, how long do you think it would take to achieve a full dantian in the Wahnam school. When the Wahnam school has such expedient methods? One thought I had was that the the Shaolin Wahnam method is based on different principles, eg dantian kept semi-permenantly open with energy flow until the flow has built up to a point where it is full. Thus aquiring the full effects of a truely open and full dantian. Is my theory close to the Shaolin Wahnam's School's Chi Kung philosophy. Any thoughts? Jon :) Marcus

12th February 2003, 06:41 PM Out of my depth on this one, anyone else care to offer a reply?:) Antonius How many liters does your Dantian hold? ;)

12th February 2003, 07:11 PM

But seriously...this should be a topic for the Chi Kung forum. So who wants to start a new thread? Fat Sau 12th February 2003, 08:36 PM Sorry guys, that was an ill-thoughtout rushed lunchtime post. After reading a bit of "The Complete Book of Shaolin" I answered my own question :o. I'm sure there will be more to come though hahaha :p. Still. It's worth checking out the links for the wenwu forum and the Quicktime clip - the master is at the end of the clip. Apparently he was told that he would be filmed for research purposes. He cured one of the producers of an eye infection immediately by passing less than 1% of his power through an acupuncture needle. I won't spoil anymore of the book for you Marcus. Has anyone else read this? Antonius I'm reading this now. I'll comment once I've finished. :) Marcus

22nd July 2004, 03:58 AM

22nd July 2004, 10:35 AM

Hey Antonius, I shall look forward to your thoughts on this book. I must say that I found it an incredibly good read and it caused me many questioning thoughts regarding the whole

approach to the training of energy. It's one of the few books that I've read more than once and I must admit to being intrigued about the absence of information on Level 3. Got to go Ollie's had a number 2 and I've realised that I forgot to bring the Nappies and wet wipes, oopps :rolleyes: Ah, the subtle joys of fatherhood. Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Budda Fat Sau

22nd July 2004, 03:34 PM

I'm reading this now. I'll comment once I've finished. :) Looking forward to that. Cyberkwoon had a lot of debates about this recently. However, the kids threw insults at the skeptics of the threads, and it all went downhill from there :( . Sher-fu Andreas, a member of the Mo-pai joined the forum to try and help answer questions (although he is limited in what he could say) he was treated quite badly in my opinion. He left the forum giving his email address to allow people to ask questions. His website is LungHuShan (http://www.lunghushan.com). Andreas announced the news that Sifu Chang has now retired from teaching and healing (I beleive this is to do with the interest generated by the documentary and books). The most senior student will help the school's existing students finish their "training" (I take this to mean "level"). So far noone has achieved the infamous Level 4 coupling of the dragon and tiger or yin and yang (this person will become the successor of the system). It was interesting to hear Sigung's response to the questions posed in the latest Q&As about this book. Incidently after a car crash in Thailand my other qigong teacher recently visited a very powerful "Tok-tok doctor in Jakata" with a similar ability, who could channel huge amounts of electricity through his fingers. He said that the treatment was so short he could not take anymore, it was very intense. one or more treatments and he and his wife were fixed. He said it was hard to control his body (body jerking around, face shaking etc). He really wanted to ask the doctor whether he could set newspaper on fire at touch but declined (doh!) Good Reading Jon Antonius

22nd July 2004, 11:28 PM

I read the threads on cyberkwoon. As I expected, it was a witch hunt. Even talking about basic energy experiences (like self manifested chi flow!!) will often get you ridiculed on other forums, so you can imagine what happens to people who talk about pyrokinetics and across-space striking. Recently, I was browsing a forum where they ridiculed a guy who politely and coherently asked about selective breaking (e.g., breaking the bottom but not the top of two stacked, supported bricks). Actually, I considered posting a comment. Since I can break the bottom brick, I felt that I should answer some of his questions. But the people on the forum were just too rude. I chose to ignore them. I thought Andreas was quite generous and clear with his comments. It would be nice to have him on our forum. He might also be curious to read Sifu's comments on the subject (http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans04b/jul04-3.html). Actually, that's not a bad idea. Maybe I'll write him an e-mail. :) mopai

14th January 2005, 12:37 AM I've heard a man could set a pile of paper on fire with his nei kung. He is ChineseIndonesian, and a very well known healer. Pyrogenesis seems to be nothing for some people. But it coressponds to the level of power they have achieved.Pyrogenesis only shows how much power one has. But after that, he has all paranormal abilities.Seeing the future,karma,communicating to the death.I believe this help someone to know what karma is. Meditating will alter the practitioners mind. They become calmer, more dinamic,creative. I will not say that tens of years of practicing nei kung just to set somehing on fire is a good thing.And other naive purposes. Indeed, we can afford a match to burn something. I know I haven't witnessed pyrogenesis with my own eyes. But when one day I met this man, he could electrocute me with his power. So It could be possible that he is able to do pyrogenesis (burning things with his qi) which is written in a book (Magus of Java). Not more that 1% of his total power. Even some people said the strongest ordinary man could be knocked out with his bioelectric flow. I want to ask why did he need a lot of time to get abilities like pyrogenesis, levitation, telekinesis, remote viewing, etc ? (More than 18 years). The master said that what he did was nei kung. And nei kung is higher than chi kung. Nei kung deals with both yin and yang. Where chi kung only deals with yang chi. But what I want to underline is the master used his abilities to heal people.Yet, he could kill people from more than 10 yards away with energy blast. You guys have any opinions ? Antonius Welcome to the forum, mopai. :) Have you met Sifu Chang? Are you his student? mopai

14th January 2005, 01:15 AM

14th January 2005, 04:40 AM Greetings, I have already ask mr John to be his apprentice a few years ago. But he refused subtlety. He said he didnt accept any new students. So I never ask him about that again. But, he helped me a lot which I cant describe in detail here. In the past times, he healed many people with his abilities. I hope in this forum, there are no insulting words where I used to get from other MA forums. I know westerners are usually skeptics about eastern art especially regarding the mo pai lineage. :) I just want to know what Mr Wong Kiew Kit's opinion about Mr John and his lineage. Zhang Wuji 14th January 2005, 05:56 AM I read both books too, and in fact, far from making me sceptical, they "softened" me for the more incredible feats I read about later on. This lineage is very fascinating. I have been studying Chinese ideology for years, and Mozi was always sort of derided in favour of Kongzi and Laozi/Zhuangzi. Many Chinese scholars regard Mozi as some sort of very poor cousin to the above giants. Mr John (can't spell his Greek surname, please excuse me) was the first one to make me realise there was something more to Mozi than most Chinese think and this began my own research. Actually, mopai, when I first saw your user name, I guessed you were sort of affiliated or at least a fan of these books. You won't get any derisive words from me - I am Chinese and am a fan of all the great Chinese philosophers, including Mozi, and I know that they were also excellent spiritual and martial arts cultivators. I suspect the reason why Level 1 & 2 is hard for most people to attain has to do with the fact that most of the time people spend in meditation is wasted. My guess is Sifu's advanced students have probably attained them already because they are adept at building energy at the dantian. Never estimate the powerful skill of being able to "relax, and focus". So many of my fellow Shaolin Wahnam students have told me that they feel this perceptible ball of energy in their abdomen (and even I, the beginner feel this from time to time). But I am honestly surprised at the author's lifestyle - not quite puritanical for a Taoist cultivator, but I guess his system allows it. Antonius


Hi mopai. :) You won't find insults here. I have read "The Magus and Java." A while ago, I invited Sifu Andreas to our forum. (He politely declined.) It's nice to meet someone who has met Sifu Chang. You are very welcome on our forum. My teacher, Sifu Wong Kiew Kit, does not post openly on these boards, though he does

spend some time reading here. To the best of my knowledge, Sifu Wong has not yet read "The Magus of Java," nor has he met Sifu Chang. However, you can read about Sifu Wong's opinions here: http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans04b/jul04-3.html As for "chi kung" vs. "nei kung," my opinion is that "chi kung" is just an umbrella term for many different arts of energy cultivation. We could just as easily use the term "nei kung" instead of "chi kung" for arts like One Finger Shooting Zen. "Chi Kung" is a relatively modern term, and one that you will not often find in classical texts. However, I find term very useful for general classification. mopai 14th January 2005, 03:01 PM I have read a bit about Mo zi only from The magus of java. Interesting enough. Still I'm glad that you and the other guys give some respects to the mopai. And we can discuss the MA side without throwing harsh words. I'm a mopai fans, and I am always curious about the stuff of chinese legends. Including their teachings.But until now, the mopais tend to be close about their art. I tried for a couple of times to meditate and reach total calmness.Though it is always very hard and I dont really know I have ever reached that state or not.If I have, then It would be for a very short time.I cant maintain it for a longer period.Its so difficult to sit still in this age.I guess I will try to do the meditation tehniques like what is described in kostas' second book, Nei Kung. According to Nei kung, a level 3 mo pai student have cut four string that hold dantian in its place, then make the dantian mobile.And they can move it at will.It feels like a soft qi lump. I'm also wondering what's the relation about qi gong and paranormal abilities such as talking with spirits, gods, and the sort of it ? If I wasnt mistaken, I have read from question and answer that Master Wong KK can do this at will.Is there any possibilities that he would ask the gods to teach qi gong or nei kung tehniques ? mopai

14th January 2005, 03:14 PM

Hi mopai. :) You won't find insults here. I have read "The Magus and Java." A while ago, I invited Sifu Andreas to our forum. (He politely declined.) It's nice to meet someone who has met Sifu Chang. You are very welcome on our forum. My teacher, Sifu Wong Kiew Kit, does not post openly on these boards, though he does spend some time reading here. To the best of my knowledge, Sifu Wong has not yet read "The Magus of Java," nor has he met Sifu Chang. However, you can read about Sifu Wong's opinions here: http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans04b/jul04-3.html As for "chi kung" vs. "nei kung," my opinion is that "chi kung" is just an umbrella term for many different arts of energy cultivation. We could just as easily use the term "nei

kung" instead of "chi kung" for arts like One Finger Shooting Zen. "Chi Kung" is a relatively modern term, and one that you will not often find in classical texts. However, I find term very useful for general classification. Thank u for you kind words, Antonius. I have read the Q&A section before I join this forum. And that's the reason why I join this forum. :D I have post a question to Q&A email address regarding the magus of java. But I guess It hasnt been replied yet. One finger shooting Zen ? the one that is able to put down a candle ? :) Marcus Hello Mopai,


I would just like to welcome you to the Shaolin Wahnam forum. I have read the Magus of Java and it is a pleasure to have someone on the forum who has met Sifu Chang. Kind regards Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha mopai

15th January 2005, 02:49 PM Thank you for your warm greeting, Marcus. I see you are a wanham instructor. I think Mr Wong KK is a great martial artist, and also a very wise man. After reading some of the Q&A in his personal website, I am very interested in his qi gong and his experiences regarding the spiritual side of qi gong. But it's a pity that he doesnt contribute and answer in this forum as well. Darryl


Dear Mopai, Welcome to the forum :) As a term of respect to our Sifu, could I ask you not to refer to him as Mr Wong KK, but instead, to refer to him as either Sifu Wong, Master Wong or even just Wong Kiew Kit. Thank you Antonius


Mopai, I'm sure many people would be interested to read more about your experience with Sifu

Chang. And yes, Darryl has given some good advice. You are very welcome on our forum, but we are obliged to be honest with you about showing respect towards Kungfu masters. I'm sure it was just an honest mistake, but it is polite to use a master's full name, not an abbreviation. For example I have not met Sifu Chang, but out of respect, I refer to him as Sifu Chang. It would be impolite to refer to him as J. Chang or Mr. John or even Sifu J.C. Thanks! :) mopai

16th January 2005, 03:04 AM OK no problem about that. I will refer him as Sifu Wong. I feel no comfortable to say my detailed experiences with Sifu Chang. I really dont want to exaggerate Sifu Chang's abilities in front of Sifu Wong. But I will tell you how Sifu Chang heals people with acupuncture. I have met him a couple of times to help my parents by holding their feet which I acted as ground.Because the bioelectric current must be channeled from the patients body to the ground. After he sticked some needles and I held my parents' feet, he continously sent a steady flow of electric current.Sometimes the current became stronger hence made their muscles jerk.Also did with my hand muscles. My mother had a pain in her leg. Maybe she got a rheumatoid arthritis. But after the first treatment. She could run without pain. The pain had gone. Prior to the treatment, she could hardly walk. If I was not mistaken, I also heard that Sifu Chang could heal cancer as well, but probability is 4 among of 7 patients. Unfortunately the 3 patients were died instantly (whose I believe the doctors and the medic have gave up treating these 3 patients and sent them home to live their short time) and the other 4 patients were healed instantly. Since that time, he has never attempted to heal patients with cancer. Antonius 16th January 2005, 04:49 PM Thank you for sharing, mopai. Very interesting. So when you were acting as a "ground," you could feel Sifu Chang's energy? What did that feel like? (By the way, I'm happy to hear that your mother is now able to walk. :)) mopai 17th January 2005, 01:03 AM It felt the same like when you touch an open electric wire.The same jolt.But it was benevolent and not so intense like a 220v current. But strong enough to make you startled. Antonius


Very interesting. Thank you, mopai. So does Sifu Chang still take patients? How did you come to meet him?

mopai

18th January 2005, 08:18 AM I think he only heals close friends and relatives now. It was a few years ago, when he still heals patients. I have address of a chinese doctor who could heal patients with qi.The patients said the qi feel so hot.And the doctor was able to set paper on fire as well.If you interested to meet/contact him, I will give you the address. What about Sifu Wong ? does he heal sick people too ? mopai

18th January 2005, 08:41 AM I've met some mo pai students, they are very humble person. There is a high degree of difference with an ordinary kung fu students, which usually are pretty arrogant.For them, "if you cant proof it, then it is a hoax".There are only a few forums where I do not get ridiculed for asking opinions or sharing thoughts about the magus of java.This forum is one of the few forum. ;) I will share my thoughts on forums which give some respect to Sifu Chang. Have anyone of you heard about mao shan pai? I heard there is a very powerful kungfu taught in that lineage. Maybe a kind of shen gong. Sometimes they use magic (black)?? mopai

19th January 2005, 02:02 PM Guys, this is a copy a got from mopai yahoo forum : (this copy's origin is from a post in wenwukuan forum) A guy who wrote this copy added some notes with this mark (*) : I added this copy with this mark (>>): -----------------------------------------------------------------------Do you by chance have a copy of some of the posts at the Wenwukuan forum? How long was the forum up and can you remember anything else Kostas cited from the Mo-Pai text? Were there any other interesting facts or revelations that were discussed there but have not been mentioned in the books or at CK?< Mostly it was re-itteration of points mentioned in the book but other thing of interest that did come up including the following information. Some i took as notes, others i cut and pasted and have put these here so others may have a better understanding of why the mo-pai may be making the choices they are + references to other practitioners and risks. Direct information from the site i have put in quotation marks. 1.alcohol, coffee and cigaretts do not affect training... anything goes so long as it does not damage your nervous system, enjoy. 2.The 'Light Body' ability that occurs naturally as a part of nei kung training had been achieved by a friend of kostas named Lee, who is a Korean martial arts master and demos it routinely. I think he is the one mentioned in the book so his nei kung is from a school other

than John's. He is a low level but he he can break 4 by 4's while maintaining his 'light body'. He was able to do this as he grasped the secret of light body well before he would of developed it naturally in the mo pai system. 3.The levels are not set in concrete for abilities, they are merely a guide and it is different for everyone. This is why they are so selective and careful in their training. Also different people will develope different abilities though some are universal. 4.Striking a person with your yang qi has the same affect whether you have yin (to project) or not, the only difference is the strength of your yang. Even making love is dangerious at level 2. 5."A health-related program like Chen tai chi can keep you alert and well. Wu style might even be better at that than Chen, if the late Mae Yue Liang and the still ornery Wang Peisheng are any example. But MoPai neikung is not health oriented." *I am not sure if it was in the book or forum but it was mentioned this training can lead to an earlier death as you are altering your energy from health uses to martial power so you have less sustaining your body. This is why you should not train too hard. 6.Mo-pai nei kung is very similear to Tibetan gTummo yoga "The best book I have seen written from the Tibetan standpoint is Clear Light of Bliss. You can find it on Amazon. Many practitioners of Tibetan Yoga have written to me saying: "hey, what you describe is exactly like the completion stages in XYZ." Duh. Human beings have two arms and two legs. Go figure." 7.60% of the people attempting level 3 have died "The people who have died or been injured have suffered from strokes, heart attacks, and kidney failure" 8."It's not a problem at all, in fact it is desired, to combine meditation with kinetic training. This is the reason that we recommend a practice such as tai-chi with a qualified teacher to all who have an interest in neikung. I would say that you are very much on the right track. What we have seen in practice is that people who follow such regimes will normally, in the course of five years, reach about 70% of Level One, which is wonderful." >>I've met a young man who could reach level 2 for only 3 years of training 9."One of the foremost living masters of neikung in China is a woman, Yang Meijun. She is the head of a Kunlun Qi gong and martial arts school, best known for her instruction of the Wild Goose style, which

is part of the body of knowledge she possesses." 10."The main concepts in the MoPai are universality (do onto others), universal justice (not revenge - I have been awed by how my master lets karma take its course without interceding, and have tried to follow his example), submission to the Will of Heaven, freedom from material possessions (Liao Sijo literally did not have a pot to piss in, when he could have had anything and everything he wanted)." Hubert

19th January 2005, 02:52 PM Thanks for sharing, mopai, that is some fascinating information. I have just bought "The Magus of Java", and I am looking forward to reading it. It is strange how less than a year ago I would have dismissed it as rubbish without even trying, whereas know, after all I have experienced with Sifu and Shaolin Wahnam, I don't have a single doubt that it is all true... I am not sure if it was in the book or forum but it was mentioned this training can lead to an earlier death as you are altering your energy from health uses to martial power so you have less sustaining your body. This is why you should not train too hard. I remember Jeffrey quoting a similar discussion he had with Sifu. Not sure which thread it was, but it was about why some Taijiquan master would die early, which could seem paradoxal. Marcus


Hello Mopai, I seem to recall that Kosta Danaos had a website and forum that was terminated due to unsolicitated negative attention. I have been keeping an eye on www.lunghushan.com website, which I think is very well done though I keep waiting for many of the sections to have content other than "coming soon". In case I havn't already mentioned I found The Magus of Java to be a fascinating read. I look forward to reading anything you may like to add to this thread. Once again it is a pleasure to welcome you here. Kind regards Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Antonius


This is slightly off topic, but since mopai's last post mentioned both Yang Meijun and Wang Peishang, I thought I would correct something. Sifu Wang Peisheng and Sifu Yang Meijun have both passed away. Wang Peisheng died earlier this year, and I think Yang Meijun died a few years ago (at the age of 104). Coincidentally, I'm currently learning Wild Goose qigong in Yang Meijun's lineage (via Dr. Bingkun Hu) at schoo, and learned some Taijiquan in Wang Peisheng's lineage (via Sifu Zhang Yun) a few years ago. mopai


Hubert, From my point of view, an internal training will be lethal enough while you have reached a high level. Because incorrect training will enable your strong qi to damage some organs.Like the heart. I was told by a mopai insider, that there was a mopai disciple who died because his heart tendon was cut off.And the doctor examining the body was very surprised with this incident.The doctor said the death similar to this case was possible when someone fell off from an aeroplane. :confused: Indeed, there is still a risk for a lower level students. But with a guru's guidance, the risk will be minimalize. But these facts (or myths ??) make me reconsider the benefit and the loss of internal training. They also scared me a bit. I will look for a similar discussion with Sifu Wong regarding "early death" you mentioned. Marcus, www.lunghushan.com is still under construction for a long period, and that really makes me feel bored, too. I think you should find a better source. :rolleyes: Antonius, Thanks for the correction and the info. Fat Sau


Hello again everyone, haven't been here for a bit. It's great to see this thread being started up again. I was shown this website by a student of this teacher. This man has had some contact with Sifu Chang (I'm not sure how much). It explains the development stages of the Mo-Pai's Thunder path of cultivation in the more traditional way. I would be interested to hear Sigung's comments on this. www.QigongResearch.org (http://www.qigongresearch.org/mod.php? mod=userpage&menu=13&page_id=5) Enjoy! Jon

seandenty

17th May 2005, 10:05 PM

Hi to All, It looks like this thread has been inactive for some time. I’m a student of the author of The Magus of Java. I live in the states and am interested in joining discussions centered on neikung and authentic systems and teachers. I’m also happy to answer any questions relating to Mo Pai that I am permitted to. Suggestions/recommendations on interesting threads to check out are much appreciated. Best, Sean Marcus Hello Sean,

17th May 2005, 10:22 PM

Let me take this opportunity to welcome you here to the forum of the Shaolin Wahnam Institute. It's a pleasure to have you here and I look forward to reading your posts and thoughts. It's hard to direct you to specific threads to check out, but one that is causing much interest at the moment is this one in the Shaolin Kung Fu section: http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3103&page=1&pp=10 Anyway, have fun and I wish you well with your practice. Kind regards Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha LeeWeiJoo

18th May 2005, 04:59 AM

Greetings and welcome Sean :) Andrew Welcome Sean.

18th May 2005, 06:58 AM

I’m also happy to answer any questions relating to Mo Pai that I am permitted to. As long as you do not break any of the forum rules and regulations, you are most weclome to answer (and ask) as many questions as you wish. Andrew

Michael Udel

18th May 2005, 04:05 PM Regarding the book, Magus of Java , did anybody else notice that Danaos reported there have been two people who achieved level 72? He claims the first was Bodhidarma and the second was Zhang San Feng (sp?). My copy of the book is back in Texas, or California, or maybe a hitchiker snatched it out of my car when I was driving between the two, so I can't quote you the page number, and heaven knows the mind plays tricks, but...Bodhidarma, level 72 in the Mo-Pai Taoist system? This should definitely have been examined in the infamous Zen/Tao thread. I think there were many places in The Magus of Java where Danaos had problems with the language barrier, and he said as much in a thank you to a fellow student who translated for him when speaking to Sifu Chang. However, I think Danaos filled in some of the blank spaces created by the language barrier with stuff like Bodhidarma being a Taoist Mo-Pai master. ???? It also begs the question, if Bodhidarma was the first person to reach level 72, and he lived about 1,000 years after Mozi, how did Bodhidarma know there were 72 levels unless he was an active member in the sect, and not just a guy whose own practice got him to a place equivalent to level 72? Danaos says there is a book describing all 72 levels and that students who reach level 3 are allowed to copy it if they can read classical Chinese. Who wrote the book—Mozi? Bodhidarma? Zhang San Feng? Luke Skywalker? I mention Luke Skywalker because Danaos continually makes references to Star Wars throughout the book. Since this thread is called the Magus of Java, I may as well get it all out. During the story of John Chang's Sigung battling the blind, evil, former warlord, does the plot make much sense? John Chang's Sigung stops a warlord and leaves him blind as a lesson. Ten years pass, the blind, evil warlord has caught up to the Mo-Pai master in ability level, I guess the Mo-Pai master was on vacation from training??, and the blind, evil warlord searches for and finds John Chang's Sifu in a hut in the woods. The man who accelerated his training based on pure hatred then says that he won't kill John Chang's Sifu because the guy was kind enough to offer him tea? I think Sauron made the same offer to Gandalf, but Tolkienn failed to mention it. Okay, okay, it's just a martial arts story, but to me it's Danaos filling in the blank spaces with some George Lucas variants. In Nei-Gong Danaos admitted he altered the facts in the case of the ping-pong ball, but I think there's a lot more that got altered. Let me be clear, this is a critique of a book, not an insult to John Chang or the Mo-Pai martial arts system. I'm in China right now because the language barrier is preventing me from just chatting to one of my teachers, much less learning the entire history of a martial arts system, so I know how tough it is breaking through the language barrier. I think Danaos used a normal amount of "poetic license" for a work of fiction, but it's being treated like non-fiction, which it ain't. Michael seandenty

18th May 2005, 04:42 PM

Thanks for the warm welcome. Best, Sean seandenty Michael,

18th May 2005, 10:39 PM

I like your line of questioning. Even as a student of the author, I like to maintain a healthy level of skepticism. If my memory serves me, I think about 50% of your questions are addressed in the book. Perhaps a reread is in order. Regarding the book, Magus of Java , did anybody else notice that Danaos reported there have been two people who achieved level 72? He claims the first was Bodhidarma and the second was Zhang San Feng (sp?). That's correct. Those are the ones John Chang knows of. There certainly could be others. My copy of the book is back in Texas, or California, or maybe a hitchiker snatched it out of my car when I was driving between the two, so I can't quote you the page number, and heaven knows the mind plays tricks, but...Bodhidarma, level 72 in the Mo-Pai Taoist system? This should definitely have been examined in the infamous Zen/Tao thread. Boddhidharma was never a member of the Mo Pai. Nor does the book make that claim. I think there were many places in The Magus of Java where Danaos had problems with the language barrier, and he said as much in a thank you to a fellow student who translated for him when speaking to Sifu Chang. However, I think Danaos filled in some of the blank spaces created by the language barrier I can assure you that this is not the case. It’s true that Sifu Chang’s associate sometimes translates more involved/complex ideas, but Kostas intended the book to be a serious work as well as a document of his actual experience with his teacher (from what I’ve heard John Chang’s English is actually not bad). Of course a work of this nature will always draw controversy just by its very nature. And really, why should you take it seriously? Whether you choose to believe or not is really a choice. It also begs the question, if Bodhidarma was the first person to reach level 72, and he lived about 1,000 years after Mozi, how did Bodhidarma know there were 72 levels unless he was an active member in the sect, and not just a guy whose own practice got him to a place equivalent to level 72? The 72 levels of power correspond to the 72 energy centers of the body. This is written about in many spiritual/meditation systems and is certainly not exclusive to the Mo Pai. And again, Boddhidharma was not a member of the Mo Pai.

Danaos says there is a book describing all 72 levels and that students who reach level 3 are allowed to copy it if they can read classical Chinese. Who wrote the book—Mozi? Bodhidarma? Zhang San Feng? Luke Skywalker? Chang San-feng. Whether he wrote it or spoke it is anyone's guess. Since this thread is called the Magus of Java, I may as well get it all out. During the story of John Chang's Sigung battling the blind, evil, former warlord, does the plot make much sense? John Chang's Sigung stops a warlord and leaves him blind as a lesson. Ten years pass, the blind, evil warlord has caught up to the Mo-Pai master in ability level, I guess the Mo-Pai master was on vacation from training??, and the blind, evil warlord searches for and finds John Chang's Sifu in a hut in the woods. The man who accelerated his training based on pure hatred then says that he won't kill John Chang's Sifu because the guy was kind enough to offer him tea? I think Sauron made the same offer to Gandalf, but Tolkienn failed to mention it. There are many more equally unbelievable stories that have not been written about. Many of these Kostas has personally witnessed and or captured on video for the benefit of his students. You might also be suprised to read Sifi Wong Keiw Kit's comments about such "fairy tales." There is a link earlier in this thread- check it out. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. Okay, okay, it's just a martial arts story, but to me it's Danaos filling in the blank spaces with some George Lucas variants. In Nei-Gong Danaos admitted he altered the facts in the case of the ping-pong ball, but I think there's a lot more that got altered. Funny you should mention; many of Kostas student's thought George Lucas ripped off the Magus of Java when the book was first published. Kostas sent Lucas a copy of the book before the forth Star Wars film came out. In all likelihood, it's just a coincidence. As for the ping-pong ball, that was an honest mistake. Let me be clear, this is a critique of a book, not an insult to John Chang or the Mo-Pai martial arts system. I'm in China right now because the language barrier is preventing me from just chatting to one of my teachers, much less learning the entire history of a martial arts system, so I know how tough it is breaking through the language barrier. I think Danaos used a normal amount of "poetic license" for a work of fiction, but it's being treated like non-fiction, which it ain't. Are you sure about that? Hope that was helpful. Who are you studying with in China? That's awsome. Sincerely, Sean Denty Michael Udel 19th May 2005, 02:30 AM

Hello Sean! Thank you for a very methodical and poignant answer to my review of the book. Your considerate response to my post is an example of why this forum is such a wonderful place. Thanks again! Now, back to the book review! Yes, yes, I concede the book did not claim Bodhidarma as a member, but you gave a better explanation of his connection to Mo-Pai than I found in the book. I think I could have inferred Bodhdidarma's indirect connection, but my interpretation of the way it was presented by Danaos was that he was implying a direct connection for the "name drop" value of Bodhidarma. My comments about the fight with the blind, evil warlord were not based on whether or not I believe in such abilities, but whether or not it made sense for someone who, after being blinded, was able to accelerate their training past the guy who blinded him based on the premise that with the power of hatred such a feat can be accomplished, and that such a person, consumed by hatred, would spare the life of anyone remotely in their way just because they offered him some tea. The plot line is certainly within the realm of possibilty, and the whims of an individual can be influenced by a variety of factors. So, yeah, sure, it's possible, but the narrative doesn't offer any support for such an action. I think all of the so-called "extraordinary abilities" featured in the book are attainable and within the boundaries of human potential, not in a hypothetical sense, but in a real sense. I've never seen levitation, pyrogenesis, etc., but I've seen or experienced similarly "extraordinary" things first hand, enough to hopefully keep my mind open. Excellent point about Sifu Wong's comments regarding the existence of "fairy tales." Sifu has talked about these kinds of things openly in his Q & A for years. Besides having deities do your bidding (http://shaolin.org/answers/ans04a/feb04-2.html) (Question 8), the walking through walls (http://shaolin.org/answers/ans98b/dec98-2.html) (Question 1) story stands out as a very interesting "extraordinary" ability. I arrived in Guangzhou, China about 5 weeks ago. My purpose here is to learn Cantonese so I can communicate directly with my first qigong teacher, Ou Wen Wei (http://www.pangu.org/), who now lives in San Francisco, but does not speak English. I expect to be here four or five years, supporting myself by teaching English, and studying (outside of a classroom) to become fluent in the Cantonese dialect and in the Chinese written language. This area of China is where Master Ou grew up and where Cantonese is prevalent. Master Ou gives all of his lectures in Cantonese, which is one reason I wish to learn it instead of the more popular Mandarin (Putong-hua). I recently attended the Intensive Kungfu Course in Malaysia with Sifu Wong, so I am now studying with him, albeit not in the normal "come to class twice a week" sense of things. Considering you live in the US, but are the student of a man who lives in Greece, you may be familiar with this system. I had very high expectations of the Intensive Kungfu Course (http://www.shaolin.org/general/kf-course.html), and they were all exceeded. For me, the primary emphsasis of Sifu's teaching begins with the

spiritual aspect, and then flows downward to the energetic (qi) and finally the physical (jing) levels. At the Intensive Kungfu Course, I experienced the highest level teaching I have ever attended. I was specifically looking for a martial arts system that emphasized spiritual practice (many give lip service to "spirit", but don't deliver) and provided a methodical, systematic training program for developing actual combat skills using its martial arts practice. I found it. The fact that I don't have to attend classes in a fixed time and place every week is an advantage for me. Sean, are you familiar with the documentary film Ring of Fire: An Indonesian Odyssey (http://www.mysticfire.com/index.html?cart=1116078372450886)? I expect you know it is what inspired Kosta Danaos to travel to Indonesia to find Sifu Chang. Have you ever seen the documentary, or read the companion book, Ring of Fire ISBN: 0892814306? This is perhaps my favorite documentary, and I watch a lot of films. Nice talking to you! Best, Michael Udel seandenty

19th May 2005, 05:09 AM

Michael, I have to say I’m also really impressed with the caliber of this forum and its users. I have to admit that I’m more than a little jealous of your study in China. I have often dreamed of visiting China or India and studying the ancient spiritual sciences hidden away in mountain retreats. When my son is a little older I may consider teaching English abroad. I teach middle school. Yes, I own a copy of Ring of Fire. It’s also one of my favorites. I will have to politely disagree about the book. You are entitled to your opinion, but I will make a couple points. My comments about the fight with the blind, evil warlord were not based on whether or not I believe in such abilities, but whether or not it made sense for someone who, after being blinded, was able to accelerate their training past the guy who blinded him based on the premise that with the power of hatred such a feat can be accomplished, and that such a person, consumed by hatred, would spare the life of anyone remotely in their way just because they offered him some tea. The plot line is certainly within the realm of possibilty, and the whims of an individual can be influenced by a variety of factors. So, yeah, sure, it's possible, but the narrative doesn't offer any support for such an action. The warlord had trained to level 52. Liao was only at level 40 and not really a threat even if he wanted to be. Level 52 is a world away from level 40. The warlord (Lim) offered to spare Liao’s life if he agreed not to interfere in the fight- the tea really didn’t have anything to do with it. Despite their agreement, Liao does try to kill the warlord and is blasted threw the side of his house.

Pai Lok Nen played an active and vital roll as a protector of the people in the community in which he lived at the time. I think the fact that the warlord is able to catch up to Pai Sifu in, terms of his level of power, makes sense when we consider that this warlord had been training in quiet isolation over a ten year period while Sifu Pai was busy doing good deeds, healing, teaching and being active in his community. Case and point: John Chang does very little healing and has retired from teaching entirely; one of the main reason for this, from what I’m told, is so he can train in the higher level practices. Sifu Chang, in his active healing days, served as the personal physician to the head of the Indonesian government. Hundreds of people would come to him daily for healing. Not to mention the fact that he oversees a thriving, million dollar international business. Thanks for sharing your experiences with your teacher and Sifu Wong. I look forward to hearing more of your experiences on this forum. Best, Sean Michael Udel Sean,

19th May 2005, 06:18 AM

I enjoyed discussing The Magus of Java with you. Thanks for your insights. I really do appreciate your reasonable nature in discussing a topic that has importance to you. It shows your good character. I have often dreamed of visiting China or India and studying the ancient spiritual sciences hidden away in mountain retreats. Who wouldn't, eh? I am extremely blessed to have found, completely by chance, three different teachers, all of them "World Class." Sifu Stier mentions the serendipity (http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php? t=2314&page=2&pp=10&highlight=serendipity) of each of his teachers finding him, not the other way 'round. In my case, I was not looking for a qigong teacher when I found Ou Wen Wei, I was urged to attend his lecture by a customer whom I'd helped in printing her flyers for said lecture; I was not looking for a kungfu teacher when I found Sifu's web site, but merely killing time between classes in the school library; and I was not searching for a teacher of Chinese Medicine, Taoist Qigong, or Tai-Chi Chuan when chance introduced me to Richard Peck, I was just looking for someone who could relieve my grandmother's neck pain. The story of how I finally found Richard Peck clearly illustrates the concept of the master finding the student only when the student is ready, but it's too lengthy to tell at the moment. My three teachers have several things in common, one of them being they are all extremely generous men. Generous to a fault. I believe their generosity connects to another quality they have that I admire. My impression of each of them is that they don't believe in enshroudng their knowledge with secrets. Sifu posts valuable information on his web site so anyone interested can benefit. He could hoard all the knowledge for himself and a few chosen disciples, but he doesn't. My other two teachers have the same attitude that knowledge is to be shared among as many people as possible (who could reasonably be expected to benefit).

Teachers, especially good ones, can do whatever they think best, but I believe the time for secrets is over. There are serious side-effects to secretive behavior, even when done out of necessity. Hide the teaching far enough out of reach, literally and/or figuratively, and the side-effect is the art is lost forever! Michael Ray

19th May 2005, 09:50 AM Dear friends, I have never read "Magus of Java" but I would like to know what is the ultimate goal of a member of the Mo Pai? (Mo Tzu is pretty interesting, too bad my classical chinese needs some work :o ) Also, does John Chang have a family? If so, are they okay with him practicing such advanced spiritual techniques that require isolation? Best, Divineshadow seandenty Michael,

19th May 2005, 04:12 PM

I’m in agreement with you on the whole sharing thing. Sounds like you’ve been very fortunate to find some great teachers. Looks like you’re a student of Pan Gu Shengong. I’ve studied a little Pan Gu with one of my old teachers- very interesting story behind that system. Divineshadow, All your questions are answered in the book. The Mo Pai is first and foremost a Kung fu school. The ultimate goal, I would imagine, is as varied as the students of the Mo Pai. Who knows what motivates men; power, greed, spiritual longing, passion, love; probably a combination of all of the above. Let’s face it we are complex beings. If pressed, I would have to say enlightenment is the ultimate goal. I believe there is, in all of us, a deep, intrinsic need to find the truth (another word for enlightenment) of our being. This is just my opinion. Yes, John Chang has seven children! I’m sure they made some sacrifices, but, to the best of my knowledge, John Chang was pretty much financially set for life before he begin practicing in isolation for long periods of time. This enabled his family to live comfortably while he was away. I have one son and he keeps me pretty busy, so I have no idea how Sifu Chang accomplished what he has with seven kids. Peace, Sean Ray [ Divineshadow,

19th May 2005, 11:09 PM

All your questions are answered in the book. The Mo Pai is first and foremost a Kung fu school. [/QUOTE] Thank you Sean, Although this may be answered in the book considering where I am (China), I have access to resources right now that I may not have again for some time. Can you tell me when the Mo Pai sect was developed (if it really is Mo pai then this may have a big impact on my research) and who developed it, also if it is a kung fu school it teaches with a self defense slant as well, are their animal forms or yogic asanas? Thanks again, Divineshadow Michael Udel

20th May 2005, 12:29 AM

Sean, Yes, Pan Gu Shengong has an interesting background. Master Ou is one of a few people in history to make an ostensibly credible claim for such a longlasting conversation with the creator of the universe. Master Ou says that since his first introduction to Pan Gu while he was imprisoned during the Cultural Revolution in late 1974, Pan Gu has been continuously showing him "movies" inside his mind nearly (or perhaps completely, depending on the interpreter) non-stop, even during sleep. My desire to learn more from Master Ou has brought me to what I expect to be a multiyear sojourn in China. Whenever I'm around Master Ou and the interpreter is willing, I have experiences like the following: Living near Dallas,Texas (USA), I was giving long distance qi healing to a classmate about 50 miles from my home, and stopped the pain in her wrist in 15 minutes where other therapists, including an excellent acupuncturist, had failed to reduce it at all. Her wrist hurt so much she was going to see an MD about surgery. After the wrist, she mentioned another ailment, so I continued sending her qi every day for a month. Toward the end of our sessions, she mentioned a friend in Colorado, without giving her name, and said that she was due to give birth, but the baby was turned the wrong way, and asked if I would help. I said I would help, but that a condition like this was so potentially serious it would be better if Master Ou helped. I told her I would inquire about it. I spoke to Master Ou's interpreter in San Francisco, where Master Ou lives, to ask if he would help, and then waited for the response. It was Thursday. Saturday, I talked to my classmate, and she told me not to bother with Master Ou's assistance because an examination Friday revealed the baby had turned. The examination was prompted by the mother, who on Thursday evening felt the sudden turning of the baby, and went in for an exam the next day. Later, Saturday night, Master Ou's interpreter contacted me and said that he already

took care of the problem. I didn't know it before that event, but Master Ou can/could link from my mind to my classmate, whom I'd not named, and from my classmate's mind to her pregnant friend in Colorado, whom I didn't know in the slightest, and then turn the baby in her womb remotely from San Francisco. There have been many such events, and other reasons from my personal experience to give credence to Master Ou when he talks about Pan Gu showing him movies in his mind continuously for 31 years. Strange, but true! Michael seandenty

20th May 2005, 03:55 PM

Michael, That's so cool. What a great story. Any literature out there on Pan Gu Shengong? Master Ou ever come to the States? seandenty

21st May 2005, 02:36 AM Can you tell me when the Mo Pai sect was developed (if it really is Mo pai then this may have a big impact on my research) and who developed it, also if it is a kung fu school it teaches with a self defense slant as well, are their animal forms or yogic asanas? The Mo Pai was founded by Mo Tzu (Mo Ti) which means Mr. Tattoo. He was born in 469 B.C.. As for animals and yoga, could be, but not to my knowledge. Of Course there's at lot a don't know. Best of luck in your research, Sean Michael Udel Sean,

21st May 2005, 02:40 AM

A Chinese citizen from Guangzhou, Master Ou has been residing in the US since 1999, and has an office in downtown San Francisco, California, USA. He lives in one of the nearby suburbs in the Bay Area. He travels regularly in the USA to Portland, Oregon; Boston, Massachusetts; New York City; Honolulu, Hawaii; and Flordia. Outside the US, he regularly travels to the Bahamas, Hong Kong, Indonesia, and Malaysia. It is quite common for students, even new students, to visit Master Ou in his home for instruction or qi healing if it is more convenient for them to go there than into downtown San Francisco. Anyone familiar with the traffic on the Bay Bridge can understand the reason. Two of his books have been published in English. You can get some information on them here (http://www.pangu.org/InEnglish/Books/BooksHome.htm). It seems a lot quicker to get the book from Master Ou's secretary than ordering on Amazon.com, which often takes weeks due to the fact that when they get a request for a book online, they e-mail Master Ou's secretary to send a book to their warehouse, where they then send it to the online customer. Not very efficient.

Just an FYI. I re-read my post and want to clarify that when Master Ou turned the baby, it was not telekinesis. The primary effect of qigong is to strengthen the life force, improve physiological function, and improve the immune system. Since I am nowhere near Master Ou's ability level, I don't know exactly how he does it, but he turned the baby by sending qi to the mother and guiding the qi to do what it is normally supposed to do in a healthy person, allowing the baby to turn by overcoming whatever qi blockage or diminished physiological function had prevented it from having the proper head-first orientation in the womb. Because of the language barrier: I do not yet speak Chinese and Master Ou does not speak English, I have learned about Pan Gu Shengong with very little direct contact with Master Ou. Because the power of Pan Gu Shengong comes from the philosophy of kindness and benevolence, the benefit from the qigong comes from improving one's understanding of this philosophy. Reading Master Ou's books, articles, and lectures is one way to improve the understanding of kindness and benevolence. Sean, if you are looking for a teacher and method for advancement, both Shaolin Cosmos Chi-Kung and Pan Gu Shengong are excellent. I value and practice both, and both can provide great benefits with relatively minimal face-to-face contact with the teacher. The reason so little face-to-face contact with the teacher is possible is that the teachers have refined their method away from traditional class attendance to allow more students to benefit. Michael mopai

22nd May 2005, 10:13 AM

Hi, I've been practicing meditation for some period.I did it regularly until one day, I felt a strange sensation. My lower belly, approx at dan tian point, jerked uncontrollably.And after that time on, the shaking comes quite often.It shakes very hard and moves my body and torso, too.It scares me a bit.But I ignore it and keep meditating everyday. Have anyone of you experienced the same sensation as mine ? Any advices ? Thanks beggarsu

21st June 2005, 08:41 AM What does Mo Pai translate to? Because from stories about the immortals I've read, I've always been under the impression chan san feng learned from The Fire Dragon of Dragon Gate Sect, and thus under that lineage. beggarsu 21st June 2005, 09:29 AM mopai, yes, this is a normal development to not be afraid of. It is refered to sometimes as "starting the fire". This is common in babies. Your body is just realizing again that the dan tian is the source of life, as opposed to the "air breathing" you have become conditioned to in after-child life. It is good to not pay particular attention to it and just continue enjoying your meditation. It is a good development sign, as most people pick

up the skill of filling the dan tian when they do stance training, whereas you got it from (i'm assuming) sitting meditation (?). mopai

22nd June 2005, 10:14 AM hello beggarsu, Yes, I got the sensation merely from sitting meditation.But a guy told me to ignore and change the concentration object to eliminate this shaking. He was right, and since then I didnt feel it again. If I'm not mistaken, mo pai mean mo from mo zi (or mr tatto) and pai (sect/clan). You can find in the internet about mo zi. :) iansanityy

24th July 2005, 05:56 AM Hey mopai, you said earlier that you have actually met John and seen him heal? Could you give me any information regarding his location in indonesia, I'm planning to go there and find him. Antonius 24th July 2005, 11:16 AM Anyone thinking about going to see Sifu John Chang should read this thread: http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3498 ivan1

23rd September 2005, 05:16 PM After reading some comments on page 1 and 2 and seeing texts in the book such as. Nei kung is higher then chi kung because it deals with yin and yang. while qi gong deals with yang. Qi gong deals with both energies, dealing with one will produce imbalance in the other. How could the author make a statement like this is beyond my reason.

This sounds like this book is coming from someone that doesn't know what he is saying. The highest forms of cultivation transend duality :eek: And by reading the reviews that people say this book is written on what was observed but not written from the writers personal experiance. Can anyone post some of the reason behind this. As I had heard many stories of great masters, such as a master making a cooked chicken appear in a students jacket because they were training and the student was hungry. beggarsu

24th September 2005, 08:41 AM

Hello ivan1,

Nei kung is higher then chi kung because it deals with yin and yang. while qi gong deals with yang.

My guess as to what the Master might have meant would be the difference between kinds of Qigong. My Master says that when you feel the energy when you do Qigong, this is the yang energy, then use the yin energy (a gentle visualization) to do high level qigong. I've seen this described in Qigong books as the difference (although it can be arbitrary) between quiescent and dynamic Qigong. ivan1 25th September 2005, 07:31 PM Interesting, Beggarsu I know you have much more qi familiarty then me, but from what I have read. Yang is usauly felt as warmth, and yin as cool or cold. But then I also have high vibration sensations and when I use palm diagnostic on my dog and go over his aura i can feel a strange strong windy sensation. Anyone comment? beggarsu Dear ivan1,

25th September 2005, 11:09 PM

Yang is usauly felt as warmth, and yin as cool or cold. I believe that when things are classified into Yin and Yang, Yin and Yang can still be applied to classify other things. Like it is true that many classify Chi Feeling into yang feelings like warm and yin feelings like cold. But I think the Yin and Yang classification in your earlier posts was meant to classify Qigong Types such as Yang types like Dynamic Qigong and Yin types like Quiescent Qigong. ivan1

26th September 2005, 01:48 AM I just said this is basics I know. Just like they teach you in school, and someone tries to explain much higher stuff to you. You just dont understand. But I am open minded and as my awarness grows so will my knowledge. darkrider am just me at the moment, i have no title, no offering.

23rd May 2006, 09:40 PM

i come with empty hands, should you ask anything of me, i will answer all i can, sincerest greetings, i have many questions burning within me, so please forgive that. hello to all as well) so, is this really true, has sifu john chang really retired?can others still find him and become students or be healed as before?....-humbly, darkrider darkrider

24th May 2006, 05:11 PM (please respond to the last one mopai) was sifu andreas, the one in the book, here? could someone tell him that i want to speak to him?-humbly, darkrider

Antonius

24th May 2006, 05:41 PM

Darkrider, Sifu John Chang has retired, and is no longer taking students. "Mopai" has not posted on our forum in over a year. I don't think you are likely to get a response. Best, darkrider

24th May 2006, 10:12 PM i read a far off post of yours antonius. and i understand more now. tell me though. will he direct you to a senior student if you ask?-darkrider Antonius

24th May 2006, 10:20 PM

Dear Darkrider, I had some email correspondences with Sifu Andreas years ago, but I have not heard from him in a long time. At one point, he had a website, but I do not know if he is still teaching. You can try to find his website. But I would give up hope of contacting Sifu Chang directly. Best, darkrider

25th May 2006, 05:54 PM if only i had known about everything years ago.....sifu andreas....i pray he hasent given up.........i meant about sifu john chang though, would you be directed to a higher-up student if you asked?he hasent moved, has he? hes still where kosta was directed to find him right? lastly..why would you give up hope? all others who do only get turned away...(wheww)darkrider Antonius

25th May 2006, 06:15 PM

Dear Darkrider, Sifu Chang wants his privacy, and I for one respect his right to that privacy. I do not know his current location, but as I understand it, he is intentionally difficult to find. Even if you managed to find the town where he is living, you would never get a chance to meet him. I recommend that you either find Sifu Andreas, or find another teacher. There are others out there, if you know where to look. Best, darkrider 25th May 2006, 07:05 PM

i agree, and respect that privacy too. but if we are destined by the winds of heaven to go where we are, it is so. the game...has definitly moved since that book was made...the easy way to play has been changed to a harder version...the chess pieces have been shifted...knocked off...whatever.....but the goal remains the same, no? one question for you. why arent you going to him? it is true, so many will not clear the gate, but so many will as well. for now, as it has been for years since ive been alive again, theres always a chance to move your player back to the beggining, and move it to the end, or the beggining? let the game, begin. -respect to all, darkrider Antonius

25th May 2006, 07:13 PM Why would I go to Sifu Chang when I've already found a high-level master? "Why seek treasure outside when you have priceless jade at home?" darkrider 25th May 2006, 07:24 PM hey! is anyone else reading this, or is just no one there? comments and getting involved(mabey) would be nice!! darkrider 25th May 2006, 07:33 PM the reason im here....the reason we're talking.....its because...my whole life...ive searched for something, something more. ive always wanted to be a warrior, every miserable day of my life, waiting to find that thing, an end to the bleakness. this is the only real way to become one, you see. and here it is. ive finally found it. the jade you so speak of is not in me. it is far away.i speak the truth and tell no lies. it is not easy either to just sum up all this in words either. nothing, i promise you to the sky, matters to me more than this. ive been shredded my whole life, incomplete, with this though...i can become whole, at last. and...i can help others...like me too..so they wont

have to go through what i went through ever again. -peace to all, darkrider Tapio Raevaara

25th May 2006, 07:37 PM

Of course we are reading! :) So, what I think? If Sifu Chang does not wish to be found (for whatever reason), we should respect his decision and not even try to seek him out. Trying to get in touch with him would be a poor use of time, it would be better spent trying to find another, willing master. Best Regards, Tapio Antonius 25th May 2006, 07:39 PM The jade may not be inside you, but it is closer than you think. You just need to open your eyes. darkrider 25th May 2006, 07:44 PM i have, antonius. and i see where it is. i was so blind to it for so long.-d Tapio Raevaara

25th May 2006, 07:47 PM

Old Chinese proverb (I think): When a student is ready, a teacher appears. darkrider 25th May 2006, 07:51 PM i dont know if the teacher is ready to appear.....but i am ready. ive been for years, and id give up anything, or anyone, just to be a student.(nice proverb)d

from the heart, and soul, and body, anything....anything for this* Tapio Raevaara 25th May 2006, 08:19 PM I once thought for a long time that I'm ready. Teacher didn't appear, although it was a close call. A year later I finally found my teacher and realized, that previously I wasn't as ready as I thought. Obiously, I am not you, and I can only speak from my experience. I'm sorry to hear your life is miserable. But just like you think you're ready while you actually may not be, your life may not be as miserable as you think. Perhaps it's your clinging to your misery which makes it so. You can make your life better even without a teacher, and you can start by smiling. :) Forget your misery for a while - when you remember it again, you may find it's not there anymore.

There are lots of jades around, but you're not going to see them, if you keep your eyes fixed on a single one - which seems to be out of your reach, behind a bulletproof glass. Things have a way of sorting themselves out. I think it's best just to enjoy the ride, there are always good things ahead. :) Best Wishes, Tapio darkrider

25th May 2006, 08:36 PM that is almost true. that would be nice....to be blissfully unaware of this...but...i can not give up...as long as i hear the children cry! Charles David

25th May 2006, 11:52 PM

Dear Dark Rider, We have a good deal of Taoist influence in our school, so when Anthony says: The jade may not be inside you, but it is closer than you think. You just need to open your eyes. you may not be able to interpret his words quite correctly, mildly arcane as they are. Being a Shaolin Kung Fu school, we also treasure simple, direct and effective speech. Allow me to interpret his "Taoist" words into "Zen" words: Our own teacher, Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit, is a extraordinarily gifted teacher and healer, as are many of the Instructors in our school. You might consider looking around this forum and its related websites and decide if we might not be able to offer you what you are looking for. I was once in a situation like yours, so I understand your words well enough.

Still Human, darkrider 26th May 2006, 08:25 PM as i said. words alone are not enough to say what is.words are hollow, never showing what we feel, which is as loud vast and clear as an ocean. darkrider

26th May 2006, 09:14 PM on that note, this is more than about me. this is about others, who's lives are litterally in a box in living hell every minute, who will never see the light of day, and no one, not no good person but me knows that this is happenning to them. the situation as it is is bigger than that.

barrys

26th May 2006, 09:20 PM

Darkrider, I spent years "knowing" there was something terribly wrong. When I managed to trust that there was no mythical perfection everything started to look better. Before it happened, when anyone told me that was what I needed to do, I didn't believe it, it made me frightened and angry. You are searching. It's being suggested to you that you are here. Take the opportunity. What's the worst that could happen? You meet a bunch of nice people and nothing changes. :) Welcome, Barry darkrider

26th May 2006, 09:39 PM i appreciate your experiences in life, especially as you are my senior. buti feel no anger, and i feel no fear,only a great tiredness from walking life again , and, like i said, this is big. so big, a person who has a positive look on life would hurl his guts if he knew what i knew. take heed everyone, there is a great ugliness in our world. i must do this to stop it, even if i have to scrape after where im going.really.-i bow to you in the center of this gathering,darkrider barrys

26th May 2006, 11:39 PM

Darkrider, Peace and blessings. With a warm heart, Barry HugoDarien Hi!

28th May 2006, 12:58 PM

Darkrider! Here I meet a instructor that he said is the only one that teach Wang Liping teach and I guess he have learn from the teacher of Magnus of Java! Hes named is: Shen David ! But note he dont want to be contact only on this imail: [email protected] See

Regards Hugo darkrider

28th May 2006, 10:59 PM

^ ^ ^ right right, you have your eye on the ball hugo:) how would i contact him if he doesent want to be contacted only by mail?(tyty) darkrider 28th May 2006, 11:02 PM *bow* good karma your way for all eternity barrys. my path is going to be brutal, im glad your life is a peacful one-respectfully, darkrider HugoDarien 29th May 2006, 08:32 AM how would i contact him if he doesent want to be contacted only by mail?(tyty) yes you can contact him on that email! He only don't wanted to be contact on the other email that you can read in the Internet! Contact him on that imail he knows many good high masters and yes I belive he said to me for a week ago that he have trained whit the Master of the Magnus of Java many years! But don't be surprise if the fee are high I belive he told me that 1 day coast 100 dollars or 1000 dollars I don't remember well! I belive this is the best person you can contact! I found many names of many Masters on this school: Universal Tao of Chi Nei Tsang right now I don't have time to found the list but I hope you do! PS I just didn't have much time like now! Regards~Hugo darkrider

30th May 2006, 08:28 PM what do guys think of this?(who havent spoken) you know, no matter what, were all in this together, and this is so larger than large, that you must have some feelings on this? any women here think anything?-respectfully, darkrider Charles David What do we think of what, exactly?

30th May 2006, 08:37 PM

Inquiringly, darkrider 30th May 2006, 08:46 PM well, everything. neikung, the people who do it, the struggle for everone once they make it to make it out alive so to speak. feels like the 1930's or something..... you feel?- really, darkrider

beggarsu

30th May 2006, 09:08 PM

Hello darkrider :) , I personally agree with what some Shaolin Wahnam instructors have said in some of their replies to you. I think you are overworrying a bit, perhaps try locating another teacher. Certainly you should respect Sifu Chang's wishes and not seek him out. Although genuine masters are rare today and the past, you can find one if you seek earnestly. For example, if the conditions under which he took the vow haven't changed, Swami Yogananda mentions in his book "Autobiography Of a Yogi" that the great Saint, Mahavatara Babji, has been alive for millenia, and is still there physically to this day on the Himalayas! There are also pictures of Saints like Swami Trailanga, who are said to be very old such as 300 years, in the late 1800s, and records of them being around in the 1600s! I'd have to give the same answer that Sifu Anthony gave as to why I am not so worried and trying to seek out Sifu Chang or other masters, as I train currently with a master under whom I have seen and experienced things beyond anything I was familiar with before, and under who'se training I obtain countless and uncomparable benefits. I would advise you to calm down for awhile and enjoy life some while keeping on the lookout for other masters or trying to properly and patiently arrange with a *willing* high level master proper meetings. kind thoughts , Aaron darkrider

30th May 2006, 09:30 PM i appreciate your thoughts, i really do, but im really not worrying like your saying. its just that ive been searching for this my whole life, and now the conditions on the chess board have changed. its very stressful, as well as stressful leading this sardonic and boring thing that other people call ''life''(people who live around me) ive been so to speak, in a box my whole life.all i want to do is do this thing ive searched for my WHOLE life, and start living!:) i know there are such immortals out there that have lived that long(even evil) but baby steps. not everybody can just approach a millenia age immortal and start yapping. appreciate your ideas alot, darkrider AlexBaranosky

30th May 2006, 09:38 PM

Darkrider! Welsome to our humble forum. I am not exactly sure what it is you want to know. What is it that you need? What is (are) your aim(s)? I am certain that Master Chang is not the sole holder of truth. I am sure there is someone else who can help you. All the Best, Alex

darkrider

30th May 2006, 09:45 PM

well you make a hard argument there. besides what i want, one of my aims, is to stop others from suffering as i did all these years, and to help yet others along the path im going, i will, and dont just tell me, ''if you really want to help, go join the firemen''r something. please dont make me out as a big person, i am just as humble as you, and i only want to be included, not excluded. thats one of the points of martial arts isnt it? but what are your goals? your aims? ? -very respectfully, darkrider AlexBaranosky

30th May 2006, 10:38 PM

Darkrider, Helping others is good. I don't think you should be a firmean, that is one crazy job! But one thing I noticed in life is that you have to help yourself before you can be of much help to those around you. You may already know this, of course... I don't think anyone is not including you, and I didn't mean to say you weren't humble. I just liked the sound of "our humble school" to be honest. You have made repeated references to terrible things that have happened or do happen. This is true, terrible things do happen and it is a shame. From my experience and of those I know and care about, you have to find a way to let go of them and to steadily but surely brush yourself off and move on to a new life of radiance, selfrespect, hope, and progress. One way to start doing that is just to Smile. but what are your goals? your aims? ? I want to be happy, healthy, at peace/content, to understand and be wise. And then to help others do all those things once I am firmly doing so myself. All the Best, Alex Charles David Dear Darkrider,

31st May 2006, 03:22 AM

To answer your question: what do you think about...everything I think everything is wonderful Regarding your second question what do you tink about neikung and the people who practice it

I would say that I absolutely love practicing chi kung and I am not able to convey how much learning this art has changed my life. The other people I have met who practice genuine high level chi kung have been the most beautiful and inspiring people I have ever met. I hope you find what you are looking for. With Shaolin Salute, darkrider

31st May 2006, 07:20 PM to truly say what im feeling, and this is what im feeling, open this link. i mean it.

http://us.share.geocities.com/bende_man/Carl_Douglas_Kung_Fu_Fighting.mp3 darkrider okay, okay, try this one (sorry)

31st May 2006, 09:31 PM

http://us.share.geocities.com/guardian_shadows/Carl_Douglas_Kung_Fu_Fighting.mp3 AlexBaranosky Dude!

31st May 2006, 09:46 PM

That one doesn't work either! barrys

31st May 2006, 09:54 PM I love that song :) . My daughter and I do a mean duet of it in the car :) . Not quite sure where you are going with that though. Still, best wishes, Barry mark v 31st May 2006, 10:14 PM

Dear Darkrider, What will happen when you find this master. Did lord Buddha and lord Jesus, not teach us enough to change ourselfs and help us to heal the world. If you can not find what you are looking for in there teachings. You may have a problem. For there are no higher Masters. I wish you good luck on your quest, Seek and ye shall find.... AlexBaranosky

31st May 2006, 10:22 PM What does the song "Kung-Fu Fighting" have to do with anything? darkrider aha! so it did work!!-nya ha ha, darkrider darkrider

1st June 2006, 02:46 AM

1st June 2006, 08:19 PM

sigh..............try this one all.

okay, go to this site, and click on ''hear my voice''. it should work.

http://profiles.yahoo.com/tinoandsteve

i wish i could hear it barrys :) AlexBaranosky 1st June 2006, 09:06 PM If you're having trouble hearing that song "Kungfu Fighting" then click on this link. **LINK** (http://www.myspace.com/12840351) It's my myspace page which just happens to have that song playing. (and it's been that way for a couple weeks, there are NO COINCIDENCES I TELL YA!)...

darkrider

2nd June 2006, 01:20 AM

what does that mean? ''there are no coincidences i tell ya''? ? AlexBaranosky 2nd June 2006, 04:00 AM It means that I happened to have Kungfu Fighting as my song on Myspace. darkrider

2nd June 2006, 04:16 AM

;) ah, i see, therefore, it is HugoDarien Dear darkrider do you contacted Sifu: Shen David :confused: darkrider

2nd June 2006, 01:13 PM

2nd June 2006, 05:41 PM

i have not gotten that far yet hugo-shen david?:confused: i like writing words like that too, but it confusing:) HugoDarien i have not gotten that far yet hugo-shen david?:confused:

5th June 2006, 11:18 AM

Why not darkrider? i like writing words like that too, but it confusing:) not at all! :cool: darkrider 6th June 2006, 03:25 AM wait wait wait, please refraise all that. starting from your last message, because i have no idea what you said at all, except for the thank you part.-respectfully, darkrider Antonius 6th June 2006, 03:33 AM Okay folks, what does any of this have to do with "The Magus of Java"? Please stick to the topic, or take the conversation to private messages, or to another thread. Thanks. darkrider 6th June 2006, 07:52 PM :D i know i know, i was waiting for the hugos next response then i was going to ask somebody to start talking again.(this was starting to be really funny to me) i have news by the way, hugo and everyone.-darkrider :D

darkrider

6th June 2006, 08:04 PM

i coudent wait for the next reply of somebody. i have talked with sifu shen, and the news is not very good. kosta, was forbidden to do the mo pai training. and though this was said, he had students, who could not pass level 1. sifu andreas,though a good man, is still struggling to get past level 2 as we speak. as far as i can see, kostas only destiny in this was to bring the word to other places, not to suceed. what a shame........ there is much discord in the mo-pai, since the highest leader is half retiring, half not, and thus is not teaching the students 100% of the time. but lo and ho, there are many other paths people, so where this door shuts, there are more to walk through. dont give up. -more later, darkrider HugoDarien

7th June 2006, 08:20 AM

Thanks Darkrider For Talking Whit Sifu Shen!:) Tu Le Hi there darkrider,

7th June 2006, 10:24 AM

Could you answer this please? I thought that both Master Kosta and Master Andreas are currently still mopai members but was only allowed to pass their current level because of a certain incident in 2004. Could you please confirm this? Thanks. Tu Le. Tu Le

7th June 2006, 10:31 AM One more question, sorry to bother you. Is Master Kosta level 3 or 4? Note: level 5 is fusing yin and yang (from a Mopai student). darkrider

7th June 2006, 05:41 PM what i said tu le was what sifu shen told me. i sensed discoured in the mo-pai, and he seemed to confirm it. beware though. the only problem with the written word is that anyone can say what they want. this could very well be being used to dicourage anyone in the u.s. from going to the mo-pai. what i said could be true, or kosta and andreas could be at a slowly climbing level. so many things though will happen that ill never know because im here. im sorry i cant confirm it. remember though people, look for the other doors. knocking at only one will not work all the time.-anything else?-darkrider

(no problem asking questions by the way tu le) darkrider

7th June 2006, 06:50 PM my dad once said, oh yeah, kosta got past level four'', when i asked him long ago if kosta ever made it. well, i dont know any more. he says he did, sifu shen says he dident, now you say he did. i really dont know anymore. it appears as though either master sifu john chang stopped teaching him, or this is intentionally being said to discourage. you have to have a very strong will for this........ darkrider 7th June 2006, 06:52 PM :) your very welcome hugo. it was a pleasure doing it, and some should know whats going on.:) HugoDarien THANK YOU! ;) I hope someday you find your teacher! :) darkrider

8th June 2006, 11:15 AM

8th June 2006, 03:35 PM

peace forever, hugo. domo, domo, domo:) and thank you:) Tu Le Darkrider, Hugo,

9th June 2006, 07:35 PM

Man, you are blessed with good karma to have the contacts of all these masters. The "will of heaven" or Jodo must be in your favour. Hopefully, you will train under a good one. Darkrider, Did Sifu Shen tell you what level he was? Have you had any experience in his abilities? Did he elaborate to you on his experiences in the Mopai? darkrider

9th June 2006, 07:43 PM

:o ive apologized so many times to heaven for all the bad things ive done after reading the magus of java second time, i felt enlightment, at last i had found god, once and for all, and at last, i knew that i had to be responsible for my

actions, because judgement existed......before...i almost turned evil....the only thing keeping me from going that far was freinds gone, who i dident want to forget.......and since then, ive tried to turn my actions all the way around. i even apologized to the master for everything i had done wrong and evil, everthing in one sentence. im honored by you tu le-praise the good, god help the damned, humbled darkrider

9th June 2006, 07:48 PM he hasent told me yet though what level he is or anything. but hes been studyin nei-kung for over 15 years, and hes an archeologist. im too humbled in his presence and unaquianted to ask that yet. i feel its something special, like invading his private space for now. he has told me that he met many masters, including, god bless him, master john chang.-peace, darkrider HugoDarien Thanks: Darkrider and Tu Le for your words!:)

16th June 2006, 02:34 PM

Night ! :rolleyes: Jak

17th June 2006, 11:22 AM Well....I enjoyed the various responses to the Mo=Pai sect. Has anyone spoken to any senior students of Wang Li Ping? It appears that besides the book - Opening the Dragon Gate - there has been virtually nothing in relation to the group. Whats the deal? Thanks, Jak ps I sent an e to Sifu Wong Kiew Kit and haven't gotten a reply - yet. HugoDarien Good Day! Jak :)

19th June 2006, 11:00 AM

As I longer know: Sifu: Shen told me that he are the only one certified instructor or teacher that have learn from Sifu: Wang Liping and that he, Sifu Shen are the only one that are certified to teach in all the part of the worlds there Wang Liping don't teach( outside China I believe)!

He told me that the only way to be contact whit Sifu: Wang Liping is to at least learn few days from him, and then you may could see or talk to Wang Liping, Sifu: Shen have many photos of Master: Wang Liping but he didn't want or can show those to the public! except to the ones that are practicing Master: Wang Liping Chi Kung etc! I hope this may be a help to you! Hey you can contact and ask Sifu: Shen for your self! Regards ~ Hugo Jak Hugo:

19th June 2006, 08:58 PM

Hi! Thanks for getting back to me, I appreciate it. I would like to speak or email Sifu Shen if possible. It's interesting that Sifu Liping is no longer teaching or if he is..his students are difficult to find. How do you know this Sifu Shen? Does he have a website or does he teach privately? Anyway....thanks again for the feedback. Jak HugoDarien

20th June 2006, 12:26 PM Hugo:Hi! Thanks for getting back to me, I appreciate it. Good Day amiable good beautiful healthful immense in love friend of pure heart Jak! hey is always good for good in fact to hear from you such kind of words something that I hear almost never! How do you know this Sifu Shen? Does he have a website or does he teach privately? Jak When I had read the Book: open The Dragon Gate I was interesting in find some teacher or Wang Liping itself on the Internet! But of all the Sifu's I ask about Wang Liping only Sifu Shen answer me! The first page I found about Sifu Shen and that I saw his email was this ( this email that are on this Homepage- [email protected] he said is only for students so he give me this other Email: [email protected] that any one can ask him about any thing about Chi and Masters! http://mantak-chia-universal-tao.com/instructors_practitioners/table/table_cntp1.html More information about him you can find here: http://www.tao-garden.com/Inst/InfoInst.php?typeID=509

I believe the only Homepage about him and others masters are this: http://www.universal-tao.com/ Regards ~Hugo :) :p 3rdlevelMoPai

10th August 2006, 01:38 AM Hello to all those interested I just came across this site and read much of the past comments since 2002! Just wanted to let all those interested in Mo Pai/Nai Gong to know that Kosta and Andreas have sent you off into two entirely different directions. What I mean by that is Kosta was considered by John Chang to be unworthy because of his book. You see, it wasn't what John wanted or expected. So, around 2000 John said he wouldn't continue teaching Kosta, and he is no longer considered a student, even though he made it out that he was. Andreas keeps telling eveyone that John Chang has retired, but this isn't true. And I might add that the truth doesn't hurt to be told, even here. I felt it is important for people to know the reality of this aspect of Mo Pai and John. Andreas is known for his "secretive" nature. He likes to make things appear to be mysterous than they really need to be. The truth is, John was forced to "retire" because he was told by "his spirit master" (two before his immediate teacher) that he could not be Mo Pai's master any longer because he allowed non-Chinese into the school. You see, John made a promise to his teacher NOT to teach non-Chinese...and he broke his promise on three different times: Kosta, Andreas and me. This is the real reason why he has retired from the leadership of Mo Pai. Yes, I am the first ever Westerner to be excepted into Mo Pai back in November 1990! Pak John was surprised to have an American on his door step asking to be a student. It was in June, 2000 that I finally reached the 3rd/2B level. While my teacher Pak John is no longer my teacher I am still practicing daily. It was sometime in 1994-5 I believe when Kosta came to find Pak John. (John Chang isn't he real name, but a name to make it harder for people to find him) The word "Pak" is used as a respectful expression of endearment toward my teacher, it loosely means father. I still refer to him using this. It was in 1996 that Andreas started calling Pak John, sher-fu. But prior to that time Pak John never knew or was called that. He simply told me to refer to him as John. In Kosta's book of course are going to be a few language problems, I had them all the time when I was with Pak John. However, Pak John was a little problematic...I found he "changed" his stories. To hear his talk early in the 1990's, and then to hear them through Kosta's eyes/ears was strange to me. While John means well, I believe he is something of a man that needs attention and gets it. That is why he allowed the first documentary to be done...and he wasn't happy with that either. In 1996 when Lawrence Blair came to make another documentary only about John, it turned out to be just another mishap and John was unhappy. It seems it didn't feature him in what he was expecting, just like Kosta's book. It was supposed to be strickly and only about

John, but it was mostly about Kosta. As intelligent as he thinks he is, he never understood this aspect with John. Kosta isn't and never will become a 4th level, he is "still" only a second level. He maybe something else in another school however. It seems likely he found another teacher because he is a determined person. It literally takes years to advance, I've been at it since 1990 and am only at the third level. I am/was Pak Johns most dedicated student. All his other 3rd level students couldn't perform at a demonstration for third level students. He was severly dissapointed and told me so. All of them failed when they were supposed to push a chop stick threw a piece of board. I can say that all the things Kosta said about Pak John's abilities are completely true. Lawrence Blair's second documentary included my testing whenI was shot and moved boxes from a distance, etc. However, Kosta got it wrong on many things, people don't die from incorrect third level training. He also didn't realize that only dedicated students Pak John liked would test them at ten times their arm length...Kosta said two other students were tested at five. This is because he knows who is truly a dedicated student. He also mentioned that his pellet didn't get smashed when he was shot, it was because low level students don't get the rifle pumped up as much as when a higher student performs. My pellets were literally smashed. I had to laugh at his concepts why his wasn't. I guess he likes to over-intellectualize eveything...didn't you get that impression from his book? Also, Pak John didn't have to hold me or touch me when I was shot, at the third level your Dan Tien is full, whereas as level two it isn't. By-the-way, Andreas, isn't Pak John's spoksman, John is old enough to communicate to others how and what he feels. It is just a quirk of behavioral nature that some people like to make others think they are more special than they are, and Andy is just such a guy. I know for a fact that he very seldom trained. Even when I spoke to him on the phone, he was impressed at how much time I trained...it was becasue he didn't train. Even Pak John knew this and didn't give him any more to do way before his retirement. When I was in Indonesia with John, Andy was there with his dad, who I really liked. He was more interested in chasing those beautiful little Indonesian ladies, not to mention that he is a heavy, heavy beer drinker. So, when he was there he wasn't real interested in training from my perspective. So, when he talks he does know a lot about what he is talking about, but as a student of Mo Pai, he really isn't one; he just talks a big story! When I first met John he was treating a guy from California who had been in car accident some years ago and lost the use of his legs. He went to see if John could help him, he also had this attitude of protecting John too as if he was his protector also. One of Pak John's longest and closet friends, Henky isn't this way. So this means that what John wants is somehow turned around by Andy. Both these two guys act as though they are "still" his students as he is retiring. This just couldn't be further from the truth. Andy was asked by Pak John to make a copy of something he wanted me to see, it took Andy three years to finally send it to me, but only after I emailed him and called him so many times. As much as I wanted to help Andy he didn't like or want to help me. I neively considered him a brother student, but he seldom if ever would keep up his friendship with me. I even went to Brisbane to see him and his father, an act of friendship that was never returned. He continued to remain alusive and vague. When I

asked him about our teacher's teachers, he gave me different names to try and throw me off. Pak John finally gave them to me and this is when I finally realized that Andy was in a different ball park than I. After, so many years of visiting Pak John, in Indonesia, and Santa Clara, California where his daughter and Son-in-law live. I have much to tell and have seen much. And much of what Kosta said about John's abilities are very real, you would be very ignorant not to believe them. I know that some of you guys really want to believe and question whether John is real or not. He is real, I've been at his side almost every year since 1990 till he was told he couldn't be the master of Mo Pai in 2003. I have a very short tape of my testing for moving on to the third level. I can let some of you see it if you're interested. The testing is only for validating that your Dan Tien is full, so it is short...and the rest of the tape is of Pak John's teaching for the third level, this I will not show...unless I know you personally and know your intentions. I've documented all the levels to the fourth level. While Pak John didn't teach me this level, I've acquired the information from our many talks and put it together. If anyone is interest, I will gladly tell you how to do the first and second levels...and the phenomena that is associated with training. This is most important, as it validated your training and allowed Pak John to know exactly where you are and when to be tested. He would never tell me what I was to experience, but rather I was to tell him...like I would make it up or something! Anyway, happy trails to all. If you are interested, I am free to discuss openly. Sorry this is so long, but there is much to say...Jim Andrew Jim,

10th August 2006, 07:23 AM

I had so much difficulty reading your post that I have edited it. The original post was one extremely long paragraph so I have edited the formatting to make it easier to read. I have not changed ANY of the content. The editing was done so that any of our members who are interested can read the post more easily. Please, in future posts, consider the ease of reading for members here. I don't intend to edit your future posts. Most people will not bother to read such long unformatted paragraphs. Thanks, Andrew Antonius Dear Jim,

10th August 2006, 11:31 AM

Thanks for that account, and welcome to our forum. Interesting stuff. Do you think that Sifu Chang (Pak John) would be happy that you are sharing your version of the truth? Best, Konoha1401

10th August 2006, 11:43 AM I've documented all the levels to the fourth level. While Pak John didn't teach me this level, I've acquired the information from our many talks and put it together. If anyone is interest, I will gladly tell you how to do the first and second levels...and the phenomena that is associated with training. This is most important, as it validated your training and allowed Pak John to know exactly where you are and when to be tested. Dear 3rdlevelmopai (Jim), I am certainly very interested. How does a Mo-Pai student do the first and second levels and what are the phenomena associated with training? With gratitude, - Konoha1401 Zhang Wuji 11th August 2006, 04:19 AM Thanks Jim for taking the time to write all that. I enjoyed reading your posts, since the Magus of Java and Nei Kung are two of my favourite books, and it is interesting to read about a different perspective. I have learnt long ago not to believe everything I read and I was always wondering if anything Mr Danaos wrote was inaccurate. That said, I found his exposition of Mo Pai very fascinating. I certainly believe all the feats that Master John is said to have done. Previous Shaolin masters and my Sifu today have done many of them, so rest assured that we are not ignorant of what Master John can do. The yin-yang aspect of MoPai neigong has always fascinated me. Let me quickly summarise for those who have not read the book. Mr Danaos (Kosta) has stressed the interaction of yin and yang energies. To achieve Level 4, yin and yang energy must be brought together in the dantian. If the power of the yin energy is not harnessed, the yang energy will stay within the limits of the human body. Most of these theories are in line with what I do know about Taijiquan theory. I have read classics attributed to Zhang Sanfeng that he had combined yin and yang within his own body. The idea that yin force is required to send energy outside the body also fits with the available facts. It is surprising to me that the well-known but elusive "empty force", the power to move things or strike from a distance has been mastered by so few. If empty force is a function of how much internal force one has, then generations of diligent masters should have no difficulty in sending energy blasts out of their fingertips. Yet, empty force is a very rare art. It appears that there is something more to empty force than simply having a great deal of internal force. I have always wondered if yin energy (or rather, mastery of it) is the "missing link". Some of the phenomena in Mo Pai training at Level 3 and above are found in other systems too, including our own. I don't know about levitation but our Sifu has written about Ho Fatt Nam Shigong s classmate being able to walk through walls and Yang Fakun Tai Shigong's ability to astral-travel. As for telekinesis, our Sifu is famous for moving clouds.

Speaking of levitation, I wonder if the art of qingong can explained through yin yang interaction. Kosta wrote that yang qi wants to go up and is in direct opposition to yin qi. It is the yin force of gravity that keeps us stuck on earth while the yang qi is a force that seeks to expand outwards. I thought this was quite a good theoretical basis to explain why qinggong masters could leap several metres or land safely from cliffs - they were tapping into the yang energy's opposition to gravity. Jim, I am also interested to hear your take on Kosta's explanation of how one is unhurt by air gun pellets. You have written that the pellets are smashed when fired at higher power, but what accounts for your not being hurt. Is it the yin force that converts that kinetic energy into something else? Would this be the same power that protected Master John when he was in a car accident, ie, that the crushing force was dissipated or simply re-directed? I ask this because this seems to be an extremely high level of Taijiquan - the power to neutralise an incoming force and change it into nothingness. Lastly, I apologise if I seem to be talking about things I do not understand. I certainly have no experience with most of the things I wrote above, which are merely intellectual musings that came up when reading the books by Kosta. Still, I thought they would make for an interesting discussion. 3rdlevelMoPai Andrew - Thanks, I'll remember... -------------------------------------------------Anthony - Thanks for the welcome.

11th August 2006, 08:23 PM

In light of the fact that Pak John thought the world was ready for learning about his school and Nai Gong, and the fact that he simply dropped me without any concern in favor of his own karma. While I can't really say what he is really feeling, I would have to say it doesn't matter to him anylonger, at least that is what I am telling myself...I do know that he has accepted his fate and wants nothing more than to train "by" himself. You have to know the Indonesian culture to understand his behavior, especially his background. On the surface, their culture may appears similar, but it really isn't...if you lived there for any length of time, you'll know what Indonesian "rubber time" means. Not too long from now Pak John will be moving to Bali for "the rest of his life" in reclusive training, only his wife will be with him. He was going to take two of his students before all this happened, but now he will train alone, until he dies...a sad fate for us, but it was his attitude that Nai Gong should not be surpressed, I'm just following/carrying his dream, and mine. I taught three different martial arts and never "just walked" away from my students, or left them dangling, I could never do that when you consider the devotion your students give you. Ever read Andreas's website, Pak John was quoted as saying, "...never hurt anyone's heart..." Well, I will leave it at that. Jim 3rdlevelMoPai

11th August 2006, 09:01 PM

Konoha1401 Before I say anything about the first two levels, please let me know your intentions with the knowledge of Mo Pai's Nai Gong? I do not want it wasted upon wanna-bees or for you to put it in your knowledge "bank" and wish you could do it and never get around to it. You have to be truthful with your self and know that you have what it takes to endure the years of long hours in meditation/concentration; being interested isn't enough. If you only want to train for a year, I can't help you...but talk to me more, OK...you have to be dedicated! To show my dedication to my teacher, I went to Indonesia to find him not knowing where he was or his name, that said something to him. Give me your email address. We'll talk more. I would love to tell you all about the phenomena that has happened to me. Several come directly from the Nai Gong training, and I will explain later, but there is also the "other side"...strange things seem to happen, as well as appear before you. Once when I told Pak John about something that happened to me he looked over to another person and said quietly...must be spirits...I really didn't like the sound of that, but it is really exciting when something does happen. After all, you spend so much time in reclusive training, and anything that happens can pick you up. Some of your senses really heighten, but everyone is different and other things will happen to you than what has happened to me. Pak John would always say when I tell him what happened to me..."Aw yesss." It seems he would remember something similar but would kept it to himself. I'll be more specific in email because of the controversial nature...I'm not so sure this is for the masses. Jim 3rdlevelMoPai Zhang Wuji

11th August 2006, 11:14 PM

I too find solace in Kosta's books, it seems to be a central point for people's hopes. I just wish Kosta would have been more truthful from making everyone think he is still on the good side with Pak John, but this deception helps his book sales I suppose. If I hadn't believed in Lawrence Blair's documentary or his book I would not have ever searched for Pak John, and I would not have experienced what I had, I am thankful I trusted my heart. Sometimes you gotta believe. The problem is, most of us can't tell when our heart are telling the truth. Oh yes, please excuse me if I offended you, I didn't mean ignorance as an insult. I do not know Kosta. But I get an impression from the way he spoke about himself, and I will remain neutral until I meet him. I hope that will be soon, as I sent him a letter the other day. Correction: In level 4, the two energies are not brought together in the Dan Tian. They are brought together "down" to a lower area; this is the yin yang picture you seen. I would very much like to talk to you about Taijiquan, as I am ignorant about it. I am familiar with "Empty Force". When Pak John when on his retreat in Borneo for two years, I didn't know what to do, I found an alleged Chi Gong master who had a little power. When I visited him he demonstrated what power he had but couldn't knock me over as he claimed he could. I did feel his Chi removing or pushing my Chi aside which

made me instantly ill, but it didn't do what he said it would do. I asked my teacher later about it and he said my yin prevented him from doing what he said he could do. Anyway, you may have heard of him, Paul Dong (real name). He has written two books. Fun reading, but you can't compare him to Nai Gong. There just isn't as much power. He (Paul) did tell me that he had a teacher in China who is much more powerful than he, but again, it is only the development of the yang. He teaches "Empty Force," in his training called "Standing on Stake." One of his books teaches this. He is a really humble man at seventy years old and living in the Bay area. There are several Chinese in San Francisco who are more powerful than Paul; some are surprisingly younger. But Empty Force is alive and well and is really not very rare or too far away, as Paul is teaching many causian students this in a local park center. Masters of Nai Gong can do many things as you have stated, it is just a matter of which level your at that determines what they can do. Pak John doesn't have total levitation, but partial. He said in a few more years of training he will have mastered it completely. At present, he literally can jump over a house. The only draw back is he has to meditate for two weeks to prepare. But Chi Gong, or the development only of yang can literally do some strange and powerful things despite being a weaker development. When I was in Indonesia I had come across another type of Chi Gong school, as there are many in Java. This one was called Kalimasada. I met the grand master family of the school. They only teach up to a certain level and keep the rest strickly for the family. At the master level, they can ignite paper into fire and knock over items from a distance. I wanted to test them first hand but didn't get the chance. However, I don't believe this is "yin." Pak John said that all these "other" schools are only based in yang, and have nothing to do with Nai Gong training. My internal force has been developed to a great degree. However, I need Pak John's yin in order to "shoot" out my Chi...as I can't do it on my own, darn! But, several years ago when I was in Pak John's home testing, I was supposed to knock over glass cups...I kind of missed and literall broke a one-inch thick glass table top from my expelled Chi. Pak John said that when he checks my Chi for the third level I have to break a tree!? I ask him how thick and he said about six inches thick. I wish I had the necessary yin to do this, but it only comes from long, hard and difficult training. I am not so sure it is so terribly painful as Kosta said. To levitate, John said that one must have yin, as yang alone isn't capable of the power to do so. Also, yin force doesn't "redirect" or convert, as Pak John said to me. It has something to do with a force or energy that simply protects one, you would see the difference once you've been shot. The Karis' knives have this power also. The first time I saw them respond to Pak John I thought I was dreaming. A book entitled "Magic and Mystery in Tibet" also tells about this aspect too. I have a feeling much of the information you're talking about in other systems are very similar to Mo Pai's. However, after doing much research in Tibetan mysticism, I found they have several schools that approach the same power or ability with totally different training. If you know anything about them you'll know they are not to be scoffed at, they really have powerful masters that are stronger than Pak John. You really need to

read "Magic and Mystery in Tibet" It is really an exciting true-life adventure. Look it up in your library, if not there, do a "interloan library search." She, (Alexandra David-Neel) discusses her interactions with lonely, mystic masters and has many esoteric experiences. The air rife event is simply the Nai Gong power or energy that protects the developed individual. When I was shot the second time there was a very, very small red dot that appeared, but it wasn't the same for my hand...there was nothing to be concerned about. When this event happened, there were many people around taping the event. Several were focused upon my stomach and recorded just how little impact it had, yet the pellet was literally smashed, and there was not much of a reaction on my skin either. It really was something to see. Prior to doing this test I developed a severe headache that lasted all day. Kosta was wrong about if you doubt it would be harmful, I did and still had no problem. Also, maybe we are experiencing semantics in our discussion. Were probably talking about much of the same the thing but using different words/language. I appreciate and welcome your inquisitive nature. I wish you could have been there to see the actual events. If and when Lawrence ever releases his latest documentary you'll see one of my testings. Hopefully, when I finally attain some visible power/abilities on my own I can demonstrate them as my teacher did for his students, but I can't say when this will happen. Jim Konoha1401

12th August 2006, 05:50 AM

Dear 3rdlevelMoPai, I am certainly not only interested, but have devoted my life to this training. Yes, my entire life. I have gotten rid of many petty attachments. I have learnt from a master and practising his chi kung everyday. I've also bought many, many taoist meditation/chi kung books/tapes. Many of them do not contain the proper teachings. I am lost at what direction to go. I have saved up for a plane ticket to travel to Indonesia to find Pak John, but decided not to purchase my plane ticket, because of your recent posts. Since you appeared, my heart has opened. My aims: - Be forever healthy. I would like to remain healthy for the rest of my life. I would wish, being at the age of 60 maintaining the flexibility of limbs (not developing arthritis), fit enough to compete with youngsters in sports, and enough mental clarity to say, complete a college degree. - I also aim to be fit at a high level. Having close to limitless endurance. Since level 2 deals with filling up the dan tien, my aim of accomplishing qinggong and high level endurance will be quicker. I have the actual training methods of qinggong. However, my current chi kung master's system does not emphasize on building energy at the Dan Tien, but circulating energy, whereas in your system it seems as though it starts off by building energy (basing this from Kosta's book). I believe that qinggong is only

accomplished if you have sufficient energy to lift you up (making you lighter). Thus, I decided that Mo-Pai nei kung would serve this purpose very well. I know its going to take blood, sweat, and guts (don't mean that literally ofcourse) which is why I have dedicated my life to nei kung training. I would love to hear your stories in my e-mail. But, in my opinion, it would be unfair to those on this forum who are interested in hearing them. A few (or many?) forum members here are actual believers of spirits, entities, etc and there are posts on experiences with spirits on this forum, so feel free to post your experiences here. I hope the moderators agree with me here. My e-mail: [email protected] With sincere gratitude, Konoha1401 Konoha1401 Another thing.

12th August 2006, 06:57 AM

I am willing to dedicate at least and only at least 3 hours to training every day. If I'm not working, then, the more the merrier. That is, I'll train the whole day. If I don't train at least 3 hours, then I don't deserve training. If prompted to do so, I would give my life to last this limit. (reason for 3 hours, is because there are other thunder path masters who expect their students to practise nei kung at least this required time. Not to mention, the long periods of sexual retention associated with it. I'm willing to do the same.) With peace and gratitute. - Konoha1401 Zhang Wuji 12th August 2006, 08:33 AM Correction: In level 4, the two energies are not brought together in the Dan Tian. They are brought together "down" to a lower area; this is the yin yang picture you seen. I would very much like to talk to you about Taijiquan, as I am ignorant about it. Anyway, you may have heard of him, Paul Dong (real name). He has written two books. Masters of Nai Gong can do many things as you have stated, it is just a matter of which level your at that determines what they can do. Pak John doesn't have total levitation, but partial. But Chi Gong, or the development only of yang can literally do some strange and powerful things despite being a weaker development.

At the master level, they can ignite paper into fire and knock over items from a distance. However, I don't believe this is "yin." Pak John said that all these "other" schools are only based in yang, and have nothing to do with Nai Gong training. My internal force has been developed to a great degree. However, I need Pak John's yin in order to "shoot" out my Chi...as I can't do it on my own, darn! To levitate, John said that one must have yin, as yang alone isn't capable of the power to do so. Also, yin force doesn't "redirect" or convert, as Pak John said to me. It has something to do with a force or energy that simply protects one, you would see the difference once you've been shot. Also, maybe we are experiencing semantics in our discussion. Were probably talking about much of the same the thing but using different words/language. HI Jim thanks for replying to me, and to all of us. It is much appreciated. I am afraid I do not have time to respond to your informative posts, I thought I would quickly comment on the portions from your post I have pasted above. Yes, I agree that a lot of differences could be semantic in nature. Generally, our system does not distinguish between yin and yang energy. Reflecting our Zen Buddhist roots (which does not in any way displace the Taoist teachings), our training is centred on tapping and receiving cosmic energy, circulating qi (chi to you) and building internal force. The concept of combining yin and yang, which seems to be central to Mo Pai training, and is the basis for the powers and phenomena. Could you elaborate more on what kind of difference "yin force" would make? As you have alluded to in your post, yang force (qigong or chi gong) itself could be very powerful. Unless i am mistaken, the yin-yang combination in the Mo Pai is the central training method to achieve the powers Master John in known for, but such powers can also be attained through other means in other systems, including those with purely "yang force". I would be interested in understand what you mean by yang develoment being a "weaker development". Finally, I should make it clear that while i am very interested and curious about the Mo Pai, I have no intention of pursuing this neigong training, having found the best Master I know in Wong Sifu. As such, if you feel that you would prefer not to reveal any more information, i am fine with it. I am grateful as it is that you have provided so much information, and thank you once again. Antonius Dear Konoha

12th August 2006, 01:48 PM

You mentioned a few objectives in learning the Mo Pai system. Basically, you want randiant health into old age. My experience with people seeking Mo Pai is that most of them are after paranormal powers, not health, so your post struck me as unusual. If

you are seeking radiant health, then you need not seek the ends of the earth. Nor do you need to practice for 3 hours a day. All you need is 15 minutes, twice a day. And you only need travel as far as Las Vegas this October. Many people think that this sounds too good to be true, but it's not. Those who have learned from Sifu Wong and practiced what he teaches know this from direct experience. Radiant health is at our fingertips thanks to the skills taught by Sifu Wong. Is this "power" any more far-fetched than those described in "Magus of Java"? I must admit to being curious about Mo Pai. The stories are fascinating, and so are the abilities described. However, my curiosity remains just that -- curiosity. Like Zhang Wuji, I've already found what I'm looking for, and have no need to search any further. Sifu Wong is more powerful than many people think -- and many people already think that he's powerful. I do not know if he is as powerful as Pak John or not, but certainly, he is easier to get tuition from. And more importantly, he is the healthiest, happiest person I know. Respectfully, Konoha1401

12th August 2006, 05:04 PM

Dear Antonius, I am partially aware of how remarkable your Sifu is, basing this off the limited knowledge on the internet, as well as direct experience. I am convinced that he has helped literally thousands. As I compared martial arts from kung fu to karate and the Shaolin Wahnam videos, I know that his school still holds one of the best kung fu sparring methodology today, due to the short number of generation transmissions directly from the Shaolin Temple , which is why I am planning to attend an Intensive Shaolin Kung Fu course if I am accepted as a student. I too, hold a high regard of your Sifu as well. Right now I aim to practise mainly mo-pai chi kung and nei kung for those above mentioned reasons. I also need to genuinely experience, not just read and faithfully believe, the supernatural powers. I need to see to what extent the human potential is truly capable of. My main emphasis is on qinggong. Please, do not attempt to annihilate my goals. At this point I do not wish to reveal any more info about myself, except to Jim. I do have one question for everyone. How does Wong Sifu move clouds without ever aiming to develop yin energy, or combine yin and yang at the perinium and control the thunderbolt, etc? It's pretty marvellous skill at whatever angle you look at it. I know that he has achieved the Microcosmic and Macrocosmic Orbit, but I am not sure if he has combined yin and yang energies, or has developed or control both yin and yang energies, which is a prerequisite for telekinesis. (Correct me if I'm wrong). Has anyone had the honour to witness Wong Sifu dispersing clouds? If so, then can you please elaborate on your experience. If you are relunctant to do so, I understand. Oh, did I mention my gratitude to Jim for posting. I guess not. Thank you Jim for your

posts. It saved me a great deal of money and cleared a lot of misconceptions from Kosta's book. Regards with peace and gratitude, - Konoha Konoha1401

12th August 2006, 06:11 PM I forgot to mention in my previous post, while I was looking at Shaolin Wahnam videos, I immediately felt attracted to the peaceful nature of Shaolin Wahnam sparring. The reason: I would rather spar slow and steady with no contact using forms(and later speeding up) then to kickbox randomly while suffering injuries. In my opinion, it helps develop skills, and both sparring practitioners end up happy. Tapio Raevaara 12th August 2006, 07:21 PM Please, do not attempt to annihilate my goals. We wouldn't do such thing, unless your goals were of evil nature. But are you sure what, exactly, your goals really are? I don't believe being (extremely) healthy is what you truly seek. Shaolin monks dedicated their lives to their practice, too. But they did not seek merely health and endurance (which is a result of a good health) but something of a completely different magnitude: the highest possible attainment - Enlightenment. Good health was only a by-product. What will happen when you reach your aim? You're 60 years old, you've spent 60 years to reach the mid-point of your life. Your purpose is fulfilled. You look back, but what do you see? What have you achieved? Do you have friends and family? Are you happy? What does your future look like? Where to now? How are you going to utilize your hardearned health and endurance? What would be the purpose of doing so? What are you willing to give up to reach these goals? In my honest opinion health should never be our ultimate goal. That would be a waste of time. Being our birth-right, health is something we should claim at the very beginning. It helps us in our journey to reach our higher goals. It's much the same with so-called supernatural abilities. In the end, it's really quite irrelevant what they are. What they can give you is much more important - how can we put them into good use, to enrich our lives, perhaps to seek spiritual fulfillment. Without purpose, these skills are empty. If I spend twenty years to be able to jump high and run fast and long, I must have a pretty solid reason - the reason is not to be able to jump high and run fast and long. Now it's time for some exceptionally wise words (Thank you, temple_dog, for providing them (http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31702&postcount=16)!): Shakyamuni Buddha was walking by a river and met a yogi who recognized the Buddha

and wanted to impress him with his skills. The yogi explained to the Buddha, "I have been practicing for fifty years and have reached the point where I can levitate completely across this great river at will." To which the Buddha replied, "I am sorry you have wasted so many years when the ferryman over there would take you across in his boat for a single coin." P.S. Welcome to the forum! :) Jak

12th August 2006, 09:13 PM Good response. The question is what are you really looking to accomplish? From my research I am under the impression that there are many paths. I remember being with Sifu Wong and speaking of Iron Fist. It's okay to train for this - certainly if one should be a tight situation, this skill could come in handy. However as Sifu Wong said there is a tradeoff in that playing the piano may prove to be difficult. Think about it - how is this going to benefit you and others? Exactly as the story about the Buddha - like, wow you can levitate but at what cost? Certainly we all would like to be able to levitate or have certain powers - but realisticly of what use are they in todays world. Sifu Wong struck me as a down to earth guy. Yes, he is a master and could more than likely kill me instantly (I think I aggravated him once, yet his wisdom and compassion at my stupidity overlooked this) but in any event we spoke of other masters and in reading Sifu's books he mentions other masters in fellow comradeship - which shows wisdom. He has mentioned great masters like Yan Xin and Wang Liping. Anyway, I am not here to defend Sifu Wong in that there is no defense necessary and the choices you make (Konoha) are yours only. I wish you the best in your decisions. For a man who is at an early age (Tapio) the post was excellent in the summation of what is important in life. Family, friends...yes health is important but just remember balance. I too have searched and realize the training that is necessary but at what cost? I had dinner with Bruce Kumar Frantzis in Berkely CA. It was just the two of us and I felt it was a good time to ask some questions that actually I thought twice about (he must get hammered with the same questions) - I said "Is a person able to project his/her qi at another person?" His response was "It's bullshit" not possible. Bruce is a straight talker. He is fluent in mandarin...etc -look up his accomplishments sometime impressive his intention is to break the mystery of the arts which are primarily an Asian foundation. In particular the Taoist end of things. Mind you - the ability to use empty force on people WHO ARE NOT AWARE may not be possible as Bruce said. It has been said that there are students who are so in-tuned to their techers that they are moved by the qi. Then again - as is the case with Yan Xi who has healed and literaly moved hundreds of people with his chi or in fact cosmic qi however, this is where virtue comes into play - does one have the ability to move or inflict pain on another person without their knowledge or would they and for what reason? I also appreciate Jim's information and have contacted him via a private post. I am awaiting a response to some questions I have asked him. Seems like a nice guy - who is he though and why does he what seems to be out of the blue, decide to post on this

site? What is his intentions? I have spoken to Micheal Winn about the tape of Pak John's setting the paper on fire (I have this on file at home) and Micheal basicly said it is BS. He said that he has personally seen this "trick" done in Zhonghua (China) and that the chemicals do this are common. I can personally rip phone books in half - sure I can make a few bucks in a bar (as I am not built like some of these pro-wrestlers) and bet that I can do it - however - it's really a technique that is involved. I had to do this in one of my testings - my other Sifu is the son of the founder of Tae Kwon Do. The chinese arts are the superior (in my opinion) but keeping an open mind is good also. I personally am very impressed with the gong fu of Sifu Wong and I personally went to Malaysia for the women (just kidding) to learn Qi gong from Sifu Wong. I am, as I said, somewhat perplexed as to the sudden appearance and intention of Jim with these posts. He has mentioned that Kostas was thrown out and my source says that this is true. In any event - why all this information? It could be that this particular discussion concerns Mo Pai, I know that I was looking for some feedback about this. I think there are other post topics that deal with other subjects. So, it could be that Jim came across this and was kind enough to inform us of the situation and for that we are grateful. Konoha, you need to be careful once entering into certain areas - there have been those that have lost their minds literally when dealing with spirits and having to delve deep into the mind. Again - I don't think Jim is saying the wrong thing but, who is Jim? What is his credentials? Why would he go to a site and seek students or be willing to teach students? 72 levels? Jim stated something like 15 or so years to get to the 3/4 level so how does one get to the 8th level nevermind the 40th level. Finally with Mo Pai - what is the goal? What is the purpose? Does one seek the Tao or enlightenment? I was told a incredible story in Malaysia and will repeat it only because I was never told to NOT speak of it - there was a master who trained for fifty years - his accomplishment was that he could scale vertical walls with just his hands and feet! Sort of like spiderman only spidey used webbing. The point again is - ok...this is unbeleivable but how is this going to benefit this master? Jak Antonius 12th August 2006, 09:49 PM How does Wong Sifu move clouds without ever aiming to develop yin energy, or combine yin and yang at the perinium and control the thunderbolt, etc? He doesn't move clouds; he disperses them. Has anyone had the honour to witness Wong Sifu dispersing clouds? If so, then can you please elaborate on your experience. If you are relunctant to do so, I understand. I have not seen Sifu do it, but I have seen one of his disciples do it. And yes, I'm reluctant to talk about it because words always fail. Furthemore, talking about such things always seems to attract the wrong kind of attention -- attention that I personally would rather do without.

Is a person able to project his/her qi at another person?" His response was "It's bullshit" not possible Just because Sifu Frantzis cannot do it does not mean it's not possible. I've met and trained with Sifu Frantzis, and he is a powerful man, but I am not surprised at his attitude. I have never seen empty force demonstrated, but I have seen more than enough to steer clear of statements like "it's not possible." Konoha1401 Dear Tapio and Jak,

12th August 2006, 11:40 PM

We wouldn't do such thing, unless your goals were of evil nature. But are you sure what, exactly, your goals really are? I don't believe being (extremely) healthy is what you truly seek. My goals are certainly are not of evil nature. Why would I want to practise nei kung for destruction? I can only think of a few reasons in why one would do this. For power/glory to satisfy ego. For avenging someone (get to the present times). That's just pitiful. Ever heard the laws of karma? I remember there was a master saying that goodness will always triumph over evil. I believe him. I believe that you will eventually suffer for your wrongdoings. I am striving to become a good Catholic, practise correctly the Ten Commandments, pray earnestly, alongside with nei kung meditation so that I can truly see God (yes, I consider this ability a supernatural phenomena). I do not want to have one single tad of bad karma within me. Yes, seeing God is another goal. I have more goals to describe, but I cannot set foot on at least one of them if I do not first aim to become a good student. Right? Right now, I need to solely concentrate to be a devoted student of Mo-pai chi kung/nei kung, as well as a good Catholic and nothing else. Later, when the time is right (and only if), I can then begin to consider(one at a time) my objectives, goals and higher goals, other spiritual systems, etc. Just to let you all know, initially, I was reluctant to post my aims. I want to mention, that I do not aim for Enlightment. Actually, far from it. I am certainly not ready for this. First thing is first. I am very sorry if I did not fully responded to you guys. I know you are only trying to help, and I appreciate the effort, but I can handle this on my own. Dear Jim, this is my e-mail again: [email protected] With peace, :) - Konoha Konoha1401

13th August 2006, 12:15 AM If my posts are in any way disrespectful to Wong Sifu, anyone who felt I insulted thier master, I sincerely, to the bottom of my heart, apologize. I too, wish to one day learn Shaolin Kung Fu from Wong Sifu.

God bless. - Konoha Jak

13th August 2006, 01:34 AM Just because Sifu Frantzis cannot do it does not mean it's not possible. I've met and trained with Sifu Frantzis, and he is a powerful man, but I am not surprised at his attitude. I have never seen empty force demonstrated, but I have seen more than enough to steer clear of statements like "it's not possible."[/QUOTE] I did not state that empty force was not possible. Here is what I said "Mind you - the ability to use empty force on people WHO ARE NOT AWARE may not be possible as Bruce said. It has been said that there are students who are so in-tuned to their techers that they are moved by the qi. Then again - as is the case with Yan Xi who has healed and literaly moved hundreds of people with his chi or in fact cosmic qi however, this is where virtue comes into play - does one have the ability to move or inflict pain on another person without their knowledge or would they and for what reason?" Please read carefully what I stated. Sifu Frantzis is telling me personally his opinion. I am sure he has enough "standing" to make a statement like that. Also note that I said "people WHO ARE NOT AWARE" so as an example I have the ability to project my chi for what purpose? If I am a Qi gong master who has the power to heal - great! but what if I don't care for my neighbor? Can I use "empty force" to harm this person? So maybe there are folks out there who get knocked over and can't figure it out? I can appreciate your stating that you have never seen this and your defense to "anything is possible" mentality. Mind you, if you have seen clouds disbursed this would be a projection of chi - so - how do you define "empty force"? Stay well, Jak Antonius Dear Jak,

13th August 2006, 01:54 AM

I did read your post carefully, and I even quoted it. I think your post was unclear, not my reading of it. However, it's good that you clarified Sifu Frantzis' opinion. Personally, I don't really care how much standing a master has. I base my opinions on direct experience. I've met plenty of masters with "standing" who say that chi and internal force are not real, and I know from direct experience that they are wrong. So if a master tells me that something is not possible, even if he is a famous master, I take it with a grain of salt. I have written many times about empty force on this forum. My definition of it is

simple: the ability to injure or strike someone without touching them. The key is that it must work on anyone, not just students. In my opinion, this skill is certainly within the realm of possibility, but few masters today have it, and even fewer are willing to talk about it. Dispersing clouds is obviously due to chi transmission, but that's nothing special for Shaolin Wahnam. That level of chi won't injure someone. I can transmit energy without contact, and several of my students have felt it. But the amount of energy required to injure a person is completely different. It's like comparing a kitchen faucet to a roaring waterfall. Same idea. Big difference. Dispersingly, Jak

13th August 2006, 02:04 AM

Anthony: Thanks for the response. I am in Seatte and your on the east coast 10pm your time so again thanks for the reply and try to stay cool! My mom lives there and I don't miss the humidity. Jak Konoha1401 Dear 3rdLevelMopai(Jim),

13th August 2006, 06:06 AM

Some of your senses really heighten, but everyone is different and other things will happen to you than what has happened to me. Pak John would always say when I tell him what happened to me..."Aw yesss." It seems he would remember something similar but would kept it to himself. I'll be more specific in email because of the controversial nature I did not quite understand what this paragraph meant. Could you please elaborate? Thanks. - Konoha Zhang Wuji

14th August 2006, 02:18 AM If my posts are in any way disrespectful to Wong Sifu, anyone who felt I insulted thier master, I sincerely, to the bottom of my heart, apologize. I too, wish to one day learn Shaolin Kung Fu from Wong Sifu. God bless. - Konoha Dear Konoha

Thanks for the apology. I will be honest - I initially found your attitude somewhat ungrateful. Because of our Sifu's generosity, masters of other systems and their students are free to post here, and make their system or style known publicly. Had it not been for this forum, would Jim have posted here, and would you have had the opportunity to ask those questions? I did not get the impression that you insulted anyone of us, though one or two of your posts were obvious snubs. I don't want to quote them here in case they are taken out of context, but if you re-read your posts in this short thread, you will know what I mean. Antonius and Tapio were only giving you advice from their own experience from the goodness of their hearts. We know that our training brings us good health (at the very least), and since that was what you said you wanted, they suggested you learn from Shaolin Wahnam without putting down the Mo Pai in any way. Comments like "thanks but no thanks" ("but I can handle this on my own") are not very becoming, aren't they? Be that as it may, you have apologised and that is that. I just thought you should know about how you were writing, in case you ever wish to become a Shaolin Wahnam student. Antonius mentioned that it is easier to get tuition from Sifu. That does not mean that you will get it, even if you asked or begged. If Master John can turn away aspiring students, so can any master of a high-level art if the student is undeserving. Konoha1401

14th August 2006, 03:49 AM

Dear Zhang Wuji, Had it not been for this forum, would Jim have posted here, and would you have had the opportunity to ask those questions? I am now awakened to how extremely lucky the opportunity to ask my questions. The answer to your question - no, I would not have had this opportunity if it wasn't for Wong Sifu's forum. I am now very grateful for Wong Sifu to be genourous enough to allow my questions. I am sorry if I have come about as a snub. Please forgive me. I will strive to do what I can to respond to all of Shaolin Wahnam students/instructors posts. The thing is, I am a little slow. I don't have your level of intelligence. I can only apply hard work. Forgive me of my stupidity. God, I'm making a fool of myself. Antonius and Tapio were only giving you advice from their own experience from the goodness of their hearts. I am partially aware of Antonius advice. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but is this what he is saying: In my experience Shaolin Cosmos chi kung is the best for health, I give you (Konoha) a rare opportunity to learn and practise this. The thing is, I have already learnt Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung, and has and continue to practise Sifu Wong's chi kung everyday till death. I know that from direct experience Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung is the best. But, I want to practise something different while continue my everyday practise of Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung. (I will need to change my "Has Learnt from Sifu Wong" to yes. Pity there isn't a maybe option. I want to remain secretive.) I

am sorry to elder brothers Antonius, Tapio, Jak for ignoring their advice. I am sorry to Sifu, if Sifu felt I have betrayed him. I am really am. He has already done so much for me (clearing blockages, temporary happiness, generosity of sharing information on Chinese arts). I am also sorry to call him Wong Sifu in place of Sifu. Right now as I am typing, tears are beginning drool in my eyes. I have broken the Ten Shaolin Laws. Please arrange some sort of punishment for me. It's just that, I want to achieve my goals, no matter what the cost. My main goal is achieving the art of qinggong (including the high level endurance arts) . Why? Think about it. Don't you feel sad that many chinese "supernormal" arts are degrading, and later become extinct from the face of the Earth. I am determine even if it cost me my life/reputation to restore the art of qinggong. This as well as seeing God will make me truly happy. I am not asking for fame or fortune by attaining this art. I only need to restore the art. I feel sad, that Sifu said that his Sifu used to witness the art of qinggong, and have no evidence to prove to those annoying disrespectful sceptics. After everything he has done for me, I do what I can to help Sifu, even if it cost me my life. (Please tell me when to not use the word Sifu instead of Sifu Wong, I feel that I am not deserving) I guess my goal of maintaining radiant health till death is already underway with my consistent practise of Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung. One of my secondary goals, is to see and talk to God. Chang Pak has talked to God. I want to do the same via Mo-Pai nei kung. About my family and friends. Yes I spend a lot of time with my family (sisters mum and dad). I am making friends at work, and enjoy being a conservationist. But these are only past times. It only feel temporary happiness. I'm still depressed at the degradation and extinction of Chinese arts. "I just thought you should know about how you were writing," I have realise this. I shall try my best to respond to my Shaolin Wahnam brothers and sisters, even if they consider me not a brother. I try to listen to everything and type polite/nice sentences/responses. Thank you for your post Zhang Wuji, I'm in shame. - Konoha1401 Konoha1401 14th August 2006, 04:36 AM Dear Zhang Wuji (or elder brother Zhang Wuji, if you still consider me a brother) [ Comments like "thanks but no thanks" ("but I can handle this on my own") are not very becoming, aren't they? Be that as it may, you have apologised and that is that

Answer: No they are not. In the future I will try to best of my ability to be simple, direct and effective. I am sorry for typing that sort of comment. Antonius mentioned that it is easier to get tuition from Sifu. That does not mean that you will get it, even if you asked or begged. If Master John can turn away aspiring students, so can any master of a high-level art if the student is undeserving.[/ I don't know what to say. What can I do? I've mention that I am willing to sacrifice my life to help Sifu, even if I am an ex-student. :( - Konoha thunderindo To Jim,

14th August 2006, 05:19 AM

Your first posts really upset all Mo Pai members. Quite a lot of MoPai members surf the net so we are quite aware of the world think of us. Some don’t believe and think of us as a hoax which we can still bear due to their ignorance. But your posts are difference, they were written by a Sifu’s disciple who are supposed to understand him, yet the posts themselves badmouthing and dishonoring Sifu many times. As bad as you might think about Kosta and Andreas, I never read them wrote bad things about Sifu. Among the many Sifu’s western disciple, you are the only one that done this to him. You might have hatred and resentment in your heart because you cant train further. But you know yourself that it is not up to Sifu to continue teaching you. You know the reason yourself, each lineage has its own rule set up by their ancestors, and all the lineage holders are strictly expected to obey them. Sifu had tried to teach you and bore the risk of breaking the rule, but finally he has no choice but to uphold the rule. For this thing only you should be grateful to him regardless what level you can train up to, but what you have done really disappoint him. Most people (Chinese or non-Chinese) will already be grateful to be accepted as student, irrespective of how far he can go in the training. You must remember that you are not the only western disciple, there are Kosta, Andreas and still many more, but they can understand the situation though it is also hard for them at the same time. It is never Sifu’s intention to accept a student and then just ‘walk away’ as you said, this clearly show that you only see this from your own point of view – your own benefit - you clearly missed Sifu’s good intention and all the trouble he had to undergone to accept you and train you untill you can reach your current level. Mind you that you are the one indebted to Sifu, not the other way around. During your 10+ years of your training Sifu never charge you anything, not a single cent. Sifu never expect you to repay anything, showing your gratitude is already enough for Sifu – and

your gratitude ends immediately when Sifu cant teach you further. All MoPai students have no rights to claim anything from Sifu, you and I are not an exception. Your comparison that you never leave your students is not a fair comparison, it is just to justify yourself, you hadnt done/sacrifice as much as what Sifu had done to us. Another thing you should know, even among chinese students, higher level training is reserved only to those deemed worthy. With your attitude I really doubt you can meet the criteria even if you are allowed to go further. To forum moderator and all readers, it is not my intention to create a mess in this forum, but since Jim wrote false thing about Sifu Chang, his disciples and other things, I have to make it straight. Jim were implying that Sifu’s intention in letting Blair and Kosta making documentary and book is to get people intention and that Sifu was unhappy because he was not the center of the book/documentary. This is utterly nonsense. Sifu was never aware that the documentary was to be aired on TV, he thought it only for Blair private documentation (even for that private purpose Sifu was not immediately aggreeing to be documented). Sifu only knew that the documentation being aired after a friend of his son told his son about this. Money and fame are never Sifu’s goal then and now (though it will not be hard for him to get them should he choose so given his skill and power). Kosta was not seen as unworthy because he hadnt made Sifu the centerpiece of the book. He also accused Kosta lead people think that he is still Sifu’s disciple to make money out of the book. I don’t know were he got this information from, as far as I know, Kosta never show up again in the net after his official forum (wenwukuan) closed. At the time the book was launched he is still a Mo Pai member. I am forced to believed that Jim hatred & frustation led him to wrote all of this about Sifu. Just for information, other western disciples are fine and many are still in contact with Sifu from time to time. I have also known Andreas personally and have no problem with him untill now. Jim said that Sifu is forced to retire from Mo Pai, in fact he is still the Mo Pai leader, only he is not involved in the operation as much as before. Jim said Sifu was ‘problematic and changed his stories’. Jim, you have to understand there are 2 things about this, one being language barrier which all western disciples faced and the other being you cant expect Sifu to remember all detail of an event. Doing things we deemed extraordinary is as casual as strolling in a park for Sifu since he has done it so many so times so many years, how can you expect him to remember all the detail perfectly. I have been around Sifu just for 5 years yet have seen so many things that if you asked me, I can only tell you the global part of the story. It is only humane to do that. Jim, now about disclosing level one and two training method, have you had Sifu’s permission to do this? Even if you are ex-student you don’t have the right to do so, you still have to ask Sifu permission to do this. Mo Pai teaching is not to be disclosed to public, there are dangers associated with training it unsupervised. You are telling them lies if you said it is not so.

Even when supervised, some students unconsciously make small deviation from the method which lead to internal injuries. During my apprenticeship I have seen enough students injured due to wrong training, near death incident is not unheard of, and I personally know every person that experienced this. Too all people trying to get training method from Jim, I am not trying to scare you, the danger is very real. Be very careful. I don’t have personal problem with you, Jim, I never met you, just heard of him from Sifu and all I heard from Sifu are only good things. I wrote this post because I cant stand being silent after all you had wrote. Seeing someone we dearly loved and honored being falsely accussed is not something we can be silent for. I hope this post can clear all the mis-information that you wrote to all forum readers.

On Behalf of All Mo Pai Members Grieved by the posts.

@ Jim, If you want to continue debating, do so via privately PM, I don’t like taking up MoPai internal matter in public forum. Don’t disgrace MoPai further with your action. Konoha1401 Dear thunderino,

14th August 2006, 06:02 AM

A big welcome to the Shaolin Wahnam forum from me. Thank you for clearing puzzling facts. Is it true that Jim was the most dedicated student of John Pak? :) - Konoha Tapio Raevaara

14th August 2006, 07:37 AM Lots of great posts, here. But before I add anything to the ongoing discussion, please let me clear a few misunderstandings - it appears I've presented myself in an unclear manner. For a man who is at an early age (Tapio) the post was excellent in the summation of what is important in life. I thank you for your compliment, although it was never my intention to say what's important in life, and after re-reading my own post, I still don't think I did. I only

wanted to raise some questions for self-reflection. My goals are certainly are not of evil nature. Why would I want to practise nei kung for destruction? Again, it was never my intention to imply this. I know your goals are good, not evil. If you got the impression that I'm accusing you of something, I sincerely apologize! Antonius and Tapio were only giving you advice from their own experience from the goodness of their hearts. We know that our training brings us good health (at the very least), and since that was what you said you wanted, they suggested you learn from Shaolin Wahnam without putting down the Mo Pai in any way. A small correction here: I did not suggest this, alhough I'd have gladly done it, if I had been asked. Absolutely no harm done, Wuji Sihing, just wanted to be clear. :) About my family and friends. Yes I spend a lot of time with my family (sisters mum and dad). I am making friends at work, and enjoy being a conservationist. But these are only past times. It only feel temporary happiness. I'm still depressed at the degradation and extinction of Chinese arts. Happiness is a skill found within. If a person is happy or unhappy just depeding on external circumstances, it's like being adrift on the sea. You say you're only able to find temporary happiness in your family, friend and work, because of the depressing state of the Chinese arts. Do you think that will change if you manage to improve the status quo? I don't think so. By definition, happiness brought by external circumstances is circumstantial - thus, temporary. You would still be a slave to the circumstances. Your goal of dedicating your life to restore the glory of the Chinese arts is truly admirable - you should be happy doing it, not depressed! :) Best Wishes, Tapio HugoDarien 14th August 2006, 09:15 AM I felt it is important for people to know the reality of this aspect of Mo Pai and John. Yes is really important! Thank you Jim for give us more light - and Welcome to the forum!:) Regards Hugo :) HugoDarien

14th August 2006, 09:20 AM Not too long from now Pak John will be moving to Bali for "the rest of his life" in reclusive training, only his wife will be with him. He was going to take two of his students before all this happened, but now he will train alone, until he dies...a sad fate for us..... Jim I understand Jim what you feel. I wonder if there going to be a sussesor after Master Pak John die? Thanks Antonius

14th August 2006, 02:02 PM

Dear thunderindo, Welcome to the forum. And thank you for sharing. There are always at least two sides to the story, and it's good to hear another perspective. Personally, I hope that the discussion continues in public. I understand that Mo Pai is secretive, and we respect. However, this discussion has already been made quite public on our forum, and I feel that it is important to continue that discussion in public. I am curious to hear Jim's response. Best to all, raja jin

16th August 2006, 02:35 AM Good luck to all those students studying mo-pai. dont let negative comments & people stop you from attaining your goals. Rahmid

16th August 2006, 05:12 AM

Hello, I wish to pursue nei kung and was wondering if anyone could instruct me in the first couple levels? If you could meet me personally that would be great! I live in the Cleveland, Ohio area. Here's my emial [email protected] And to Jim, I have yet to decide which side to believe. But I was wondering, level 3 students can deflect attacks correct? Like the pellet gun. Are you using your yin or yang energy? Thanks Rahmid Konoha1401 Dear Rahmid,

16th August 2006, 05:20 AM

Are you using your yin or yang energy? The answer to this question is in the book "The Magus of Java". - Konoha Rahmid

16th August 2006, 05:27 AM Yes and no, In the Magus of Java Kosta explains that John filled him with Yin energy then shot the pellet. But if you are lvl three do you have such mastery over yin? Or is it Yang doing the work? And if it was John doing the Yin manipulation wouldn't he be able to block it WAY better than Jim(but Jim said that he could take it when pumped more and said john explained it was because of Kosta being weaker, but wasn't it John doing the work?) Rahmid Konoha1401

16th August 2006, 05:43 AM Hmm. Well I don't know which side to believe, Kosta or Jim? I'm also clueless in whether or not John Pak actually transmitted yin chi from a distance to Jim before the attempt to stop the bullet. (Awaiting for the answer to Rahmid's questions.) Rahmid

16th August 2006, 05:59 AM

Well, this is what Jim has said: He also mentioned that his pellet didn't get smashed when he was shot, it was because low level students don't get the rifle pumped up as much as when a higher student performs. My pellets were literally smashed. I had to laugh at his concepts why his wasn't. I guess he likes to over-intellectualize eveything...didn't you get that impression from his book? Also, Pak John didn't have to hold me or touch me when I was shot, at the third level your Dan Tien is full, whereas as level two it isn't. He says he block the impact from the pellet because his dantien is full. That would mean he used yang to stop it, becuase your dantien stores yang, correct? And if John used Yin on Kosta the effects would be radically different, no? Yin and Yang are opposites, lol I'm more on the side of Kosta as of now. Jim implies that kosta was a bad student and John knew it. But if he knew it, then why didn't he just turn him away like he did to hundreds, possibly thousands! And Kostas said i his books John approved of the books. Also Kosta never said Lvl three training can kill. But ya never know, but if Jim doesn't reply soon, i'm gonna assume he was just one of

those downers that just like to get people stired up and then watch the aftermath. It's happened in other forums i watch more than once! Rahmid unseen

16th August 2006, 08:34 AM Hi Jim,You are spot on with your description of certain people as far as i am concerned u said everything as it was.Can we talk Rahmid

16th August 2006, 05:07 PM

Hello again, I'm confused again: "All of them(lvl three students) failed when they were supposed to push a chop stick threw a piece of board." In the book, Kosta was told the story about how John went to california because he was told of a master there. They met and the master pounded a nail into a table using his hand. Then John simply pushed a chapstick through the table. John asked Kosta why he was able to do this and he wasn't. Kosta said it was becuase John combine yin and yang, when the california master only used yang. And John said "right-o!" figuritivly of course, : p . So wouldn't you have to be lvl 4(at least) to do such a feet? I dont mean any disrespect of any sort, just your saying many things that conflict with what both books have said and i'm confused. And the books make perfect sence in my head. Thats all really, I really hope to learn from you if your willing to teach! Your the closest person to nei kung that i've met, and I severly wish to learn. Rahmid Antonius 17th August 2006, 01:14 PM Out of curiosity, does anyone know what "Mo Pai" means? Or does anyone have the Chinese characters? Or both? :) Rahmid 17th August 2006, 03:16 PM I may be wrong so dont be afraid to correct me, but I think it's just named after the founder, Mo Tzu(which means Mr. Tattoo, they think he was a prisoner at some point because of the tattoo's he had and the name change). Rahmid Antonius

17th August 2006, 03:50 PM

That's what I originally assumed, but it's confusing because I'm not clear whether "Mo Pai" is Mandarin, or Cantonese. If it's Cantonese, then "Mo Tzu" would be "Mak Tzi", which would make it "Mak Pai." Anyone have the chinese characters? Rahmid 17th August 2006, 04:23 PM sorry this isn't a real post, just my comp or somthing is freaking out and saying some one is posting every 5 mins, I have like 10 emails for ONE post! Hope this fixes it Rahmid Konoha1401 Dear Jim and/or Thunderindo,

17th August 2006, 10:22 PM

Does the Mo-Pai nei kung system involves closing a practitioner's sexual gate to develop the thunder power? What I mean is, does it involve him to draw in all their genitals (Penis, perinium, testicles) into his body? Does the system require one to drinks his/her own urine? (Gross. How disgusting.) Does the system involves the circulation and mixing of vapours with saliva through five organs, with tongue, through gall bladder, etc. then later ignite the true fire in the lower furnace? - Konoha Konoha1401

17th August 2006, 10:29 PM I heard that the mo-pai system involves chi kung exercises such as: Reverse breathing, tortoise breathing, micro-cosmic orbit breathing, macro-cosmic orbit breathing. Is this true? Zhang Wuji 18th August 2006, 01:39 AM Out of curiosity, does anyone know what "Mo Pai" means? Or does anyone have the Chinese characters? Or both? :) Hi Antonius Were you expecting me to post in reply?:) These are the Chinese characters, and Mopai is spelt in the modern Hanyu Pinyin 墨派 "Men Pai" means school or sect, so Mo Pai is most likely an abbreviation for 墨子门派 (the school of Mozi)

I have always found Mr Kosta's use of Chinese terms very confusing. He uses Mandarin and Chinese dialects interchangeably and even Japanese to boot. "Jodo" is obviously Japanese but he asserts it is a Chinese word. What Rahmid said about the Mopai came from the books. What Mr Kosta writes is fairly close to the known facts but it is quite obvious he was using secondary translated sources. It was always been my bugbear -people writing authoritatively should be using personal experience or authentic sources (which could be oral tradition). I had spent hours in bookshops and libraries looking for writings by and about Mozi and they were pitifully scarce. He was even omitted from my compulsory module in Chinese philosophers. When I have time, i will post a typical passage from his writings. cnholmes 18th August 2006, 12:13 PM people writing authoritatively should be using personal experience or authentic sources (which could be oral tradition). Zhang Wuji, Very well said - I agree wholeheartedly with you. Here is my posting on this from a while ago. http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4914#post4914

It is important to have good sources of reference, IMO the best source is direct experience; after that is a 'primary' source, like the murals Sifu mentions here, which are documented evidence of someones direct experience; lastly is secondary sources which is someone saying what they think is meant by the evidence in a set of primary sources. Very bad is where academics all refer to each others work with no 'real' evidence behind any of it. Also bad is hiding behind a title when your argument crumbles. All these are, however, fundamentally and irretrievably flawed. Mainly because of that same problem "how do you explain the taste of mango to someone whos never tried it?". No two people will have the same direct experience, and if you don't really understand whats going on you miss a lot. Then, if you create a primary source by describing your experience, your words might not convey the true essence and the reader will read it with pre-conceived ideas which get in the way. From this you can see that secondary sources are always a case of 'chinese whispers', where the message is changed ever so slightly at each stage. Finally, on all 3 counts its important to remember two things about the person relating the story. 1. Who they're telling their story to.

2. Why they're telling it. Both of those can affect the content and tone of the information. And of course, as Plum Blossom says, you have to have a focussed argument to tie it all up. Its a flaw in western academia that they are selective in their evidence. It comes from having to make a bold statement at the beginning of your study, then finding evidence to prove it. No one wants to write in their thesis "OK, I'm wrong, lets go back to the beginning and start again".

I'd just like to add that when dealing with interpretations of secondary sources, linguistic and cultural divides can create many errors and greatly magnify others. This is very often pointed out by Sifu in dealing with Chinese Classics. Regards, Chris. zenbone 18th August 2006, 02:42 PM Jodo is usually spelled 'jodoh' in Bahasa Indonesia, the Indonesian language. It is a Javanese term (sp. Jodho). While it relates to 'fate' or 'the will of heaven,' it is almost exclusively used with reference to things that are a match or have been brought together. A man and a woman who are meant for each other have 'jodoh.' If a keris likes me and indicates it wants to serve me, then that is also jodoh. It is assumed automatically that this was brought about by heaven or God (or, in Bali, by the Gods). Meeting sifu Djiang would be 'kehendak Tuhan' - the will of God. Having a good teacher/student relationship would be an indication of jodoh. Hope that helps. Lei

29th August 2006, 12:46 AM

Hi to all the members Djiang Sifu was in Greece in 2002. So he wasn't rejected Kostas in 2000. He never rejected him. On the contrary, Sifu was enjoying his visit in Greece and made a short but very amazing demonstration of electrogenesis along with some therapies There are at least two students of Kostas that can hit from a distance the videotapes boxes with the yin "help" from Sifu and they are near the end of level 2a (I thing that they have allready complete the level in a way) It is a very sad situation, all these things about who is good and who isn't, who is more stronger than the other, who is the student that Sifu love or hate etc, etc. We, as humans allways believe that the knowledge must be given to us, like we own it.

We never really appreciate what it is given to us from Above. We are arrogant, selfish and all the time we desire more and more, like we are immortals. Some people in this life had the privillege to be in the Mo Pai or in other Pai's as well. This is more than enough. God wanted to be that way for us, so everyone has to accept it. If it was Sifu's decision, or some spirit's, it doesn't really mater. Because in reality, if the student has a sincere hart, he will find his Way one way or another, either in Mopai, or in other Pai etc. Sorry for my bad English God (or whatever you believe) bless you all Antonius Yasoo, Lei. Welcome to the forum. :)

29th August 2006, 01:14 PM

Because in reality, if the student has a sincere hart, he will find his Way one way or another, either in Mopai, or in other Pai etc. I couldn't agree more. :) HugoDarien

29th August 2006, 03:19 PM

Hello! Yasoo, Lei. Welcome to the forum. :) I couldn't agree more. :) Welcome to the forum from me too, Yasoo, Lei! And I couldn't agree more too! Now one question! Do The teachings from the Magnus of Java have some connection whit the Quanshen school or the Mao-shan tradition of great purity:confused: I mean who is the founder is there any lineage that we can see? Thanks! Good-bye! andyseattle 29th August 2006, 11:17 PM Hi, I am a bit confused. I am not affiliated with the Mo Pai in any way but I have been trying to follow the Internet discussions for a few years.

I have had email conversation with various people, but it is still confusing what's going on, from various conversations I've been able to piece together, basically something happened with 'Raja Jinn', and some Australian students, so 'Pak John' decided not to teach any Westerners anymore. (Some people say they were kicked out, some say not kicked out just not taught anymore), who knows. Anyway, none of that is any of my business, anyway. Except I guess the 'Mo Pai' is now closed to non-Chinese. Which seems a bit silly, because I've met bad Chinese just as bad Westerners. But, whatever. But I've been wondering if any of you know anything about the Mo Pai martial arts forms. Do you think they are at all related to Baguazhang? The art is called 'Pai Le Chuan', what is the 8 for? Is the 8 for like the 8 different 'energies' in taiji (peng ji lu an etc.) or is it like 8 as in gua (are the forms done in a circle at all?) Thanks in advance! Luo Lang

30th August 2006, 01:19 AM

Welcome to the forum Lei, I would like to thank you for your nice contribution. As Anthony Siheng wrote, I also could not agree more. One thing I would like to ask you, if it's allowed to share, is: I have the impresssion that Mo Pai is very Taoistic influenced? Would you agree? Respectfully, Roland Lei geia kai se sena Anthony:)

30th August 2006, 01:35 PM

HugoDarien, Luo Lang, Antonius thanks a lot. Yes, Mopai has similarities with Daoist neidan. But it is not an "orthodox" daoist school like Quanzhen, Maoshan, etc. But in my opinion is a lot Daoist oriented comparing with other Ways of cultivation. It is one of the main lines of Motzu teachings, so it is just a Mohist school having a martial art too. It is a closed door school, so the lineage remains "inside" the family. And, no, paleichuan is not similar to baguazhang. That's all I could say for the matter. Thank you again for the warm wellcome

Take care andyseattle

30th August 2006, 05:21 PM

Thank you, Lei. HugoDarien Good Day!

31st August 2006, 09:13 AM

When you said that Mopai has similarities with Daoist neidan! It reminds me a comment of a book, he said: Having learned all the practices (except kan & li) from Master Chia, I have no difficulty following David's brief clear instructions. So maybe if you have read this book or some student of Mopai read the book you feel some similarity! http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Gong-Practical/dp/0595174973/sr=11/qid=1157015194/ref=sr_1_1/104-4558014-9119127?ie=UTF8&s=books Can you please explain little more what this names means?: Mopai Motzu Mohist paleichua May god Bless you friend Lei. Good-bye! Lei Dear HugoDarien:)

31st August 2006, 11:56 PM

No, I am not familiar with this book but I will try to read it in the future. Mopai - Mo comes from Mo Tzu and Pai means method/family etc Motzu - The name of the mystic/sage where Mo Pai comes from Mohist - Someone who follows the MoTzu's teachings paleichuan - eight thunder fist. The gong fu of Mo Pai I believe that I said everything I could say about Mo Pai. Thank you God bless you

andyseattle

1st September 2006, 12:08 AM Don't you think this is so frustrating? Like dangling a carrot in front of a horse and then saying it can never have it. If Zhang San Feng was really a member of this 'Mo Pai', then possibly taiji came from 'Mo Pai', but we have no way to validate it or anything. Does the 'Mo Pai' have any splinter lineages or offshoots? Any other teachers out there? It seems like maybe all the Mo Pai people should just go away and stop teasing if they don't plan on teaching their martial art anymore. andyseattle

1st September 2006, 06:22 AM Actually I have to apologize, I wasn't really thinking. You said you just can't teach Westerners anymore, right, not everybody. Konoha1401

1st September 2006, 06:58 AM There goes another Mo-Pai student. Oh well. Yes, you are right. That kind of attitude should be fixed. :) BTW, I think nearly everyone in the world would be a Westerner (culture) by now. Dear Lei (if you ever return), I just like to ask, how is Kosta? I would like to wish him and his family all the best. Good luck and best wishes, - Konoha HugoDarien

1st September 2006, 11:49 AM ...No, I am not familiar with this book but I will try to read it in the future. Mopai - Mo comes from Mo Tzu and Pai means method/family etc Motzu - The name of the mystic/sage where Mo Pai comes from Mohist - Someone who follows the MoTzu's teachings paleichuan - eight thunder fist. The gong fu of Mo Pai I believe that I said everything I could say about Mo Pai... Hello :) Lei Thanks :) Well I belive is the best book in English on the subject I have buy it, and going to read

it next week so I write my comments latter! I found some interested article about the Sage Motzu, see here: http://www.humanistictexts.org/motzu.htm I remember too that there are others Immortals that have Martial Art in their training, some could be special whit the Palm etc! Yes I belive too that you said all! May you always remember that you did a very good thing here on the forum and sure going to do in the future! Take Care HugoDarien A Photo of the White Cloud Temple for you! Lei

1st September 2006, 12:16 PM

I believe that I said everything I could say about Mo Pai. dear friends. This is what I wrote, not that I am leaving the forum. It seems like maybe all the Mo Pai people should just go away and stop teasing if they don't plan on teaching their martial art anymore dear andyseattle Why are you saying this? Jim, wrote some thinks about Kostas and his students and I wrote the "other part's" answer. I am not here in this forum with the purpose to teach you or any other person anything. I am not looking for students nor do I advertise Mopai here in this forum. Others are looking for students and are quite "open" and generous. Jim seems to be one of those. Not me, so please don't confuse things. Where from my posts did you get the image of me trying to "tease" anyone about my art? Please indicate it to me. I am here just to clear things up. Just that. But if from my part it seemed else, then I apologize. dear Konoha1401 Kostas is very good, his family too. He is just too beasy working all the time many many hours a day. Thank you for asking. dear HugoDarien thanks for your words and the photo of cource. God bless you all HugoDarien 1st September 2006, 12:23 PM

dear HugoDarien thanks for your words and the photo of cource.God bless you all Thanks Lei :) andyseattle

1st September 2006, 04:16 PM dear friends. This is what I wrote, not that I am leaving the forum. dear andyseattle Why are you saying this? Jim, wrote some thinks about Kostas and his students and I wrote the "other part's" answer. I am not here in this forum with the purpose to teach you or any other person anything. I am not looking for students nor do I advertise Mopai here in this forum. Others are looking for students and are quite "open" and generous. God bless you all Well obviously Jim should not be teaching according to Thunderindo, it is against the wishes of his teacher, 'Pak John'. I am not going to go against the wishes of your teacher. I am not from the East, so obviously, 'Mo Pai' is closed to me. I don't understand when you say others are open to teaching. They are not open to teaching Westerners, right? But I didn't realize that 'Mo Pai' is still open to Easterners, so I'm sorry for my comment. As I put in the next post, I apologize. Antonius

7th September 2006, 02:40 AM I hate to break it to you folks, but the secrecy surrounding Mo Pai is not unusual. In fact, it is traditional. These days, everyone assumes that all of the secrets are being taught openly. Either that, or they assume that there never were any secrets. The truth that many don't realize is that there are secrets. Powerful ones. Some schools choose to keep their secrets, and that is their prerogative. Other schools don't have any secrets to keep, although they may say they do. And other schools choose to share their secrets openly with deserving students. Obviously, Shaolin Wahnam is one of these. I cannot criticize Sifu Chang for closing his doors, but I must admit that, when reading Kostas' books, I was moved by Sifu Chang's desire to spread his art to all races. His dream was to have one Level Four student from each race of man. To me, this seems like a noble dream. My Sigung, Ho Fatt Nam, had a similar dream. He asked Sifu Wong to spread the Shaolin arts to deserving students worldwide, no matter what race, gender, or religion. Sifu has worked hard to fulfill that dream, and look how many people have benefitted. How many people are alive today -- alive physically, mentally, and emotionally -- that

would otherwise be dead if not for Sifu's efforts? I look forward to a day when more masters choose to share their arts more openly. The world will be a better place for it. HugoDarien

7th September 2006, 09:04 AM I look forward to a day when more masters choose to share their arts more openly. The world will be a better place for it. Good Day! Thanks for the information Sifu Anthony. I look forward too, that more masters choose to share their arts more openly. Regards Hugo HugoDarien

7th September 2006, 11:42 AM Dear HugoDarien..No, I am not familiar with this book but I will try to read it in the future... In my opinion the book: The Art of Chi Kung by Sifu Wong is a much more better book! for more information see here: http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5425 Regards Hugo darkrider

12th September 2006, 10:35 PM hugo, i feel it is rude to quote right out, so ill just say it. theres a reason that these things are kept at a reasonable(sometimes not) amount, secret. the day that everything is shared is the day that the human race alone, knows fully, each and everyone, that they for sure, are alone. picture this for a moment if you will; jedi-mopai this was, in little pieces, brought together to form the original of george lucases jedi, then, with a few pieces cut out to fit star wars, fully behind the jedi. although missing lightsabers,(one has been built) they are real.

now, picture this. if you will; sith-?

in short terms, the whole thing of star wars is mixed with truth and untruth. but for the real, weve seen what the wonderous can bring. i quote from, star wars, knights of the old republic, what are the jedi without the force?strip all that away...and you dont have much what if someone took it upon themselves to learn this, trained in the nei-kung way, and brought all this to some others who could make a person hurl from the sight of them? (no jk) basically, no need for the jedi then. then what would stop those others from taking out the jedi at their leasure? already powerful themselves from evil? have you any fathom of the terrifying?

although not ''jedi'' themselves, the don's of the south know people who could do this, and have for a very, very long time. when our domain is no longer plagued by evil, war and lies....only then so god help the good will, with a limit still, more be revealed. -much respects, d Chi Addict


Hi Darkrider, Personally i enjoyed the Star Wars series very much. Yeah i know...which guy doesn't..:rolleyes: Anyways, a lot can be learnt from a 'science fiction' film. Episode 3 was my favourite. I think the premise of the mythology wasn't just abt good overcoming evil. Although both are moral definitions, the 2 seemingly opposing ideologies, when taken to the extreme, becomes the same.

2 sides of the same coin as they say. I don't think it is possible to totally eliminate evil, as they will always exist so long as there is a good side. A paradox i know.... Btw Hugo, i agree with you that Master Wong's Chi Kung book is excellent. I borrowed from a library and got quite a lot out from it. :D darkrider

13th September 2006, 05:20 PM okay.....i think i should have said something a little more clearly........brrr..

just because i was mentioning star wars, does not mean i was talking about THAT directly. i was talking about how star wars is based on reality, not about how reality is based on star wars. reality, ok? R.E.A.L.I.T.Y :( so please, dont just kill all i just said with how great star wars was. i was talking about things based on facts, and outcomes. nothing more, okay?? i said, no, j.k!-d..... seandenty

22nd September 2006, 09:59 PM

Hey Guys, Interesting discussion. I was a student of Kostas for a few years; interesting experience that. Real Kung Fu still exists in China, very much like Star Wars... good movie. Best, Sean Chi Addict

23rd September 2006, 09:39 AM I was just using Star Wars as an example Darkrider. But I might have digress a little yes? :p I think masters do their best to preserve the secrets for various reasons. Maintaining superiority, keep it for the deserving, prevent abuse of power,etc. They have their rights of course. Regardless, I still think it will be a real pity for the rest of mankind. But, for the sake of stimulating discussion -- Is it wrong to allow common people to train for such powers? By that I mean the average decent, physically qualified and willing person.

While it certainly is right to say bad people will abuse them, good people can also use it for self-protection and act as a deterrent. It levels the playing field so to speak. An analogy might be the issue of gun-control laws. If only the military and police are allowed firearms, what of an oppressive government who could do anything they please? The reasoning that it protects people as it prevents criminals from getting it is a fallacy since criminals don’t follow the laws in the first place! They always obtain it illegally. The reasoning that it protects people as it prevents immoral characters from obtaining such powers is a fallacy since they’ll find other ways to get it (As seen in Lim, the warlord, in Magus of Java). What then of the helpless ‘mortals’? Why can’t the willing and deserving learn to protect themselves? Can they not take up responsbility for themselves instead of relying on saviours? That doesn’t mean one can’t, or is wrong to keep secrets (even if it’s traditional). But I was pondering on the validity of using that particular reasoning. I think Star Wars ep 3 is great on many fronts (expect the love story) because it covers this aspect on several levels. The deeper message is both good and evil will always exist in mankind. Yin-Yang polarity. seandenty 23rd September 2006, 06:57 PM It's simply that you have to prove yourself to the Master. They test your character and resolve; and first you have to actually meet a master. raja jin 24th September 2006, 01:02 AM Hey there guys, there are plenty of great system around (as others have stated previously) but they just follow different methods and some of the terminology differs. it all depends on what you are looking for & what your goals are.there are many schools out there which use what is termed "Yin Energy" very early on in their training. maybe the results effects are not as great, but the skills do come very quickly & you dont have to wait 20 years. training 4 hrs a day,not having sex,etc, the list goes on. remember,Its not what the master can do or demonstrate for you that matters,but rather, Will the teacher share the correct & full teachings with you & how long before you can start using & applying the energy you have built in everyday life for multi purposes. for example if a person were to reach only level one in the mopai then borrow or build the equal ammount of yin chi to unite with yang,can you imagine the power !!! theres no need to go to level 2 or 3 . Thnx Guys seandenty 25th September 2006, 10:40 PM

Hi All, Yes, I agree with Raja Jin here, there are lots of great teachers and good martial arts systems. However, neikung in my experience is something totally different. The traditional goal of neikung is enlightenment and liberation. The Daoist concept of liberation is basically the same as the Buddhist one; however it existed long before Buddhism entered China. The reason for the various tests and basic secrecy is very fundamental to this type of practice; the power generated is tremendous and there are many moral and ethical pitfalls to be wary of. This is true of the Lei Shan Dao (the thunder and lightning path) which John Dijang represents, as well as the other five major Daoist lines. It's the master’s obligation to test the student and find out if he or she is really ready. Since my study with the Mo Pai, I've discovered the existence of several Masters in China who have achieved the same types of abilities that John Dijang possesses. I even met two of them. Trust me, most people would walk away when they found out what's really involved in undertaking these practices; I went though a great deal of sacrifice and sweat just to be able to meet these masters and I can definitely say these practices are extremely rare to come by and are not taught openly or to the public. If you've read through some of my earlier posting in this thread, you might be interested to know that I found what I was looking for. Perhaps if this post generates some interest, I'll share some of my experiences in China. Best, Sean Luo Lang


Dear Sean, Your open heart is very much appreciated. Thanks for sharing your interessting experiences. you might be interested to know that I found what I was looking for. Perhaps if this post generates some interest, I'll share some of my experiences in China. I am very interessted to hear more of your experiences in China, when meeting Masters of differnt styles:) shaolin_mike 26th September 2006, 10:06 AM I maybe getting sidetracked here but I just wanted to share something. There is a lot of talk in this thread about special powers and wanting to learn different arts so you will be able to perform these amazing feats. Well from what I have read and experienced I can tell you this: the human being is capable of great things, amazing things which seem like miracles to those who do not know about them. These impressive powers may seem attractive to others but the real truth is that they are mundane, because they still deal with the material world, as opposed to enlightenment which is the highest attainment. Also, these powers could easily become a distraction and therefore a hindrance to the spiritual progress of a practitioner. There was a great story by Shrii Shrii Anandamurti on this subject. He was a highly

realised yogi and him and his followers had many many incredible abilities so he was speaking from experience. He would tell everyone not to use their abilities as it only flatters their ego. He made a comparison to a baby crying while the mother is cooking dinner. The baby wants his mother but the mother is busy so she gives him a toy to play with. The intelligent baby knows this is not what he wants, he wants his mother not the toy. The mother symbolises final enlightenment and the toy symbolises siddhis or special powers. Anandamurti says we should not be satisfied with the powers but instead strive for the final goal. I hope you bear this in mind while you are searching for a master to teach you. Peace Shamsher 26th September 2006, 10:24 AM Bravo Mike, what you wrote is very grounded and sensible. with respect Sham. Chi Addict

26th September 2006, 02:35 PM Yes sean do tell us more about your experiences in China. :) Piers Sean, I'd like to hear more too.


piers shaolin_mike

26th September 2006, 06:00 PM Bravo Mike, what you wrote is very grounded and sensible. with respect Sham. Cheers mate but it only sounded that way because Im paraphrasing a very wise man :) seandenty Dear All,


It’s great to see a little interest on this thread. I understand that the comments made were intended to be helpful and I think they represent a valid caution. However, this is an important topic and since it was brought up, I’d like to use this opportunity address an important point on the powers that come with the practices being discussed. I once held that same belief, that spiritual power was something bad or a distraction from so called true spiritual practices. We’ve all heard or read this cautionary in spiritual books; it’s like a mantra, “Warning, power corrupts!” Gee, really? I’m going to speak frankly here; most people who use this type of propaganda are trying to establish their power. Have you ever heard the saying, “those who speak don’t know and those who know don’t speak?” Of course you have.

Do you know what it means? Let me fill you in; those in power, “who know,” don’t have to say anything, because real power doesn’t need an excuse or words to back it up; and those in power, who don’t know anything, better be really good at convincing people with words, otherwise people might realize they don’t know anything. This statement, I’ve come to believe is quite contextual and very Chinese; something about which most westerners have little or no idea. These abilities are simply a byproduct of correct practice. They are not a substitute for enlightenment and wisdom, but they are the signs that you’re progressing toward actual enlightenment. Ironically, one of the masters I recently met in China is a devoted Buddhist and uses his powers to heal and help build up his community; He actually can trace his masters back directly to the founding patriarch of shaolin, the Bodhi Dharma or Da Mo, which ever story you prefer. The practice he teaches is the original neikung of shaolin; which has now been lost in the temples and monasteries. I would like to relate some background that was passed on to me from my teacher who has spent career as an anthropologist for the last 15 years in China researching and studying these arts and gets paid thousands of dollars by universities and governments to talk about China’s culture and spiritual traditions. The tradition says that when Da Mo reached Shaolin, seeing how the monks were dedicated but unsuccessful in their practice he retired in a cave to ask the help of Heaven in order to support the monks. He lived in a cave for 9 years, during which he not only became fully enlightened, but received Ling Bao, manifested divine scripts that appear from nothingness, the history of which goes back at least 2 millennia in China; long before Buddhism appeared in China. These Ling Bao were the full transmission of the Lei Shan Dao (otherwise known as the thunder and lightning path), namely the Lei Shan Gong, the Tai Yi Shen Gong and the Wu Xiang Shen Gong. It’s interesting to note that they were not Buddhist in origin, but rather Daoist. The final element is that when Da Mo taught, the transmission became known as the Shaolin Wu Shu or the five arts of Shaolin. Namely: Yi Jin Jing, Shi Shui Jing, Long An Zhuan, Yi Zhi Chang and Jing Bu Gang. They only became known as Buddhist practices by proxy and were wisely adopted as Buddhist practices, just as many Daoist groups adopted elements of Buddhism. When I was recently in China I witnessed a rare ceremony where my teacher was made a family student of a living neikung lineage that retains all of the teachings; the very teachings of Da Mo. This is an extremely rare occurrence for a westerner to be accepted as family into this lineage. Over three hundred monks and lay practitioners from the eight sacred mountains, including a group of Shaolin monks, showed up to witness the acceptance of a westerner into their family. Of all the people who participated in the ceremony, I found it ironic that the masters with the most power and achievement knew the least about when to speak and bow and other details of the superficial aspects of Buddhist practice. The truth is that the people who always shun power and, even worse, claim they have power, but refuse to demonstrate it on grounds that it’s some kind of ego trip and it would be contrary to some ethical or moral code, basically have no achievement. They hide behind clever words, but, as I said before, the actual practice of these arts is far more involved than most people currently involved in the superficial aspects of them care to know. This path is full of irony and missteps, but that’s the nature of the search.

When you find a real master and they demonstrate their abilities in front of your eyes, it has a way of convincing you that maybe you’re on to something real. If you’re just told to believe, “hey, I’m enlightened,’ then you just have to take it on faith that the person is telling the truth. Unfortunately the truth is, anybody can say nice things and sound very profound and a lot of people just believe it even if it’s crap. On more than one occasion, my teacher told us an experience he had with Wang Li Ping in China. Yes, my teacher is a close student of Wang Li Ping from the book which some you made have read called Opening the Dragon Gate; just one of his many masters, all of whom have achieved. Anyway, he asked about enlightenment and how one really can know if they’re enlightened. Sherfu Wang was silent. Suddenly he stood up and left the room, locking door behind him. A moment later he walked back in the room, passing right through the wall as if it didn’t even exist. My teacher’s jaw dropped as Sherfu calmly and simply explained that when you are enlightened you are truly one with your environment; not just intellectually or spiritually, but totally. Many can talk of such things, but very few people have achieved it and can transmit the teaching and fewer still are willing to teach. These demonstrations of power serve one purpose; to inspire and give faith to deserving students. Point of fact, Sherfu Wong Kiew Kit has on many occasions demonstrated the breaking of bricks and this cloud dispersing demonstration that I hear people on this forum refer to from time to time. These demonstrations, while not representative of full achievement, are way beyond ordinary human capacity and serve to inspire students and build faith in the practice, not demoralize them or cause people to become inflated and insane with greed for power. If anything, they make one more humble. Yes, power can be misused; that’s why these things aren’t taught to the general public. The reality is that without power you can never reach the goal. Even if you are a Buddhist scholar who shuns power, at some point in your life you will discover that it’s necessary. This is of course why all or a least many Buddhist teachers teach morality and ethics first and then teach power. At least that used to be the case; today of course, these levels of achievement have all but become extinct. Even to the extent that, when people like John Dijang are written about, instead of recognizing him as true master, he is criticized and slandered. Such is modern life; sadly, the magic has all but died in our culture. Sherfu Wong Kiew Kit has written, to me personally, on more than one occasion about his grand master, Immortal Li. Sherfu Wong is certainly aware of such abilities and, from his writing on the subject, obviously holds them in high regard. Immortal Li was a great master with powers like a God. The belief that these powers are some kind of ego trap that furthur tie us to the material world is utter nonsense; on the contrary, anyone who has acheived these abilities has completely liberated themselves from this mundane existence. They have broken the bonds of karma and firmly rooted themselves on the path to the full enlightenment of the Buddha. Please don't be confused on this point. These abilities are real and despite the fact that most of the modern world is completely ignorant of them, they are very important and meaningful teachings. I hope, one day that this power, and the blessing it carries, is revealed to the world again, but there is a right way and a wrong way and apparently timing is important. John Dijang’s deepest wish was to help the world with this blessing. Unfortunately, a

few bad apples ended that opportunity for the rest of us. But, perhaps there is a reason for all things and all things unfold when they are ready to. It’s a difficult system to achieve and comes with many risks. Other teachings are more refined and much quicker. Who knows, if we play are cards right perhaps the west can win back the blessing that so many agree it has lost. My teacher has encouraged me to share these secrets with you all, and I’m happy to be of service. It’s my deep wish that this teaching will be reborn and the wish of the masters living in China. Otherwise it will die. These posts represent the possibility of a real opportunity. Otherwise I would not be here to waste your time and hold carrot in front of your faces. I’m here because I sense a maturity and kinship and because my teacher asked me to. But, first we get to know each other. We can share a little and dream together, if you are interested, and, if not, that’s okay too. Enough for now- Best, Sean raja jin 26th September 2006, 08:11 PM hey there guys, topic seems to be heating up again lol, well sean they were some really interesting posts & great stories there. its very interesting what you said about devine scripts manifesting from other sources,etc. while in indonesia i had the opprtunity also to meet several people who were said to have devine gifts. this will sound ridiculous but these items do appear almost magicaly & out of thin air to the meditator from higher beings & sources. some are like jewels,others weapons & lost or ancient teachings to speed up the journey of the practitioner. one of the "gifts" i managed to see was like a yellow old stone said to be given from a higher power during an extended period of fasting & meditation. this stone once put in any mobile object(car, even an airplane so im told!!) made the thing impossible to move. like weighed down by millions of pounds you will just see the car sitting there & unable to go anywhere. i dont know the value of such an object but it was very amazing and i tested it myself on various occasions. once the stone is set-nothing moves,he he. very strange indeed and powerful. btw........one word about searching for personal power etc. i also was constantly put down and almost berated by others & so called masters for searching out such skills. they termed them as "Low level" and called them blockages to real enleightenment etc. well if these people cannot even perform so called " Low Level" skill,how can they ever expect to obtain high level skill such as enleightenment? fortunatley i got away from these kinds of people & found others who delight in such demonstrations and use power as a mark of advancement. i agree with sean that these powers directly prove ones mastery of chi and show the progress one has made. thnx guys great forum ! Shamsher Dear Sean,


thank you for providing us with that information. I haven't the time now but would like to discuss some things with you about your post later when i have some time(in this thread).

God Bless Sham. raja jin

26th September 2006, 08:31 PM Guys, i wasnt sure where to post this one ! but since we are talking about thunder path various and methods,i thought i could share it here. i recently found a very interesting topic about another gentleman who also studies & teaches various methods of nei-kung ,thunder path and other taoist methods on the internet.one webpage claimed he studied mo-pai nei kung but left after a dispute? the topic eventually leads to the drinking of ones urine (lol) termed the golden elixir or drink of life for various benefits inclding health,improving chi etc. ha ha ha :)) i will throw the link here for curious minds( i hope moderators dont mind?sorry) http://www.thetaobums.com/lofiversion/index.php/t1007.html they also give a few of his breathing techniques, anyway what i would like to know is..does sifu wong or any of the shaolin wahnam students have any experience with this kind of practice. i have heard of the native american indians doing this but never ,ever, in the taoist or chinese tradition. i wont be trying it he he,im just curious about its ffects and benefits if any. thnx guys seandenty Hey all,


I'd just like to add that I have a tremendous amount of respect for Sherfu Wong and really admire both him and his students for their abilities. I just felt I should add that. Best, Sean raja jin Yeah i would like to second that too ! Great work guys.


unseen 27th September 2006, 05:38 AM Dear Sean, U have studied with many masters as u have said,these took u a long time to find.May i ask u with all due respect,as your master asked,Wang Li Ping a alike question.With all your masters and axceptance from them.That is what can u do,from all your abilites that u have aquired.From yur many years with them seandenty


Dear Sean, U have studied with many masters as u have said,these took u a long time to find.May i ask u with all due respect,as your master asked,Wang Li Ping a alike question.With all your masters and axceptance from them.That is what can u do,from all your abilites

that u have aquired.From yur many years with them I can chew gum and walk at the same time; beyond that, nothing. If you take a closer look at my posts, you'll see that I've spent most of my time searching. The teachers I speak of are all quite new to me. I did progress to the second part of the Mo Pai level one training. But that's really not as big a deal as some might think. I do know some masters though and they can do all variety of amazing demonstrations. The training I have undertaken this year is the same taught for thousands of years, in it's pure, original form and with the blessing that is required to carry it through. It's still being taught to today by people who have reached real immortality. That's a good feeling. In a few days, I'll post a few final reflections and give some resources for those who care to delve further. I will include details about the abilities I was shown and perhaps talk briefly about the various levels of this type of training and the abilities that indicate mastery over these levels or achievments. At that point, I will have shared what I think is reasonable and sensable. I hope that this becomes a stepping stone for those of you who were taken with Kostas writing, if you wish it. That's really all I'm trying to do here. Thank you, Sean HugoDarien

27th September 2006, 12:23 PM hugo, i feel it is rude to quote right out, so ill just say it. theres a reason that these things are kept at a reasonable(sometimes not) amount, secret. the day that everything is shared is the day that the human race alone, knows fully, each and everyone, that they for sure, are alone. d Hi, D is ok you don't seem rude to me! Yes there are many secrets out there but nowadays we can find many things on the Internet, for example you can read interesting things here: :http://www.taoists.co.uk/index.htm http://www.stanford.edu/~pregadio/index.html http://www.taorestore.org/trs/interview.html http://www.eng.taoism.org.hk/general-daoism/development-of-daoism/pg1-2-8-37.asp PS. This links are just for information and not for talk about them in this thread, if you or I want to talk about them, then you should start a new thread!

the day that everything is shared is the day that the human race alone, knows fully, each and everyone, that they for sure, are alone.

Well I belive that when Jesus Christ came back, (somewhere in the year 3000 according if you belive in the bible) then we will know everything, from the beginning until the end! I belive we are never spiritual alone:D Btw Hugo, i agree with you that Master Wong's Chi Kung book is excellent. I borrowed from a library and got quite a lot out from it. :D Good Good , I read in this book: The Teachings and Practices of the Early Quanzhen Taoist Masters (Suny Series in Chinese Philosophy and Culture) by Stephen Eskildsen (Author) that the best book in English about internal and external Neidan is this one: Science and Civilisation in China, Vol. 5 nos 2, 4 and 5 by Joseph Needham http://www.amazon.com/Science-Civilisation-China-Vol-5/dp/0521303583/sr=16/qid=1159360379/ref=sr_1_6/104-1283238-2959912?ie=UTF8&s=books Dear Sean, Your open heart is very much appreciated. Thanks for sharing your interessting experiences.I am very interessted to hear more of your experiences in China, when meeting Masters of differnt styles:) [QUOTE=Chi Addict;48543]Yes sean do tell us more about your experiences in China. :) Sean, I'd like to hear more too. piers PLEASE I hope and pray too, for more words from you dear Sean! ...Let me fill you in; those in power, “who know,” don’t have to say anything, because real power doesn’t need an excuse or words to back it up; and those in power, who don’t know anything, better be really good at convincing people with words, otherwise people might realize they don’t know anything. I love those words! When I was recently in China I witnessed a rare ceremony where my teacher was made a family student of a living neikung lineage that retains all of the teachings; the very teachings of Da Mo. This is an extremely rare occurrence for a westerner to be accepted as family into this lineage. Over three hundred monks and lay practitioners from the eight sacred mountains, including a group of Shaolin monks, showed up to witness the acceptance of a westerner into their family. I wish good wishes for your teacher and I feel good, because he have been accepted into the family!

...On more than one occasion, my teacher told us an experience he had with Wang Li Ping in China. Yes, my teacher is a close student of Wang Li Ping from the book which some you made have read called Opening the Dragon Gate; just one of his many masters, all of whom have achieved. Anyway, he asked about enlightenment and how one really can know if they’re enlightened. Sherfu Wang was silent. Suddenly he stood up and left the room, locking door behind him. A moment later he walked back in the room, passing right through the wall as if it didn’t even exist. My teacher’s jaw dropped as Sherfu calmly and simply explained that when you are enlightened you are truly one with your environment; not just intellectually or spiritually, but totally. Many can talk of such things, but very few people have achieved it and can transmit the teaching and fewer still are willing to teach. I feel so happy that you know histories and that your teacher know Celestial Immortal Wang Liping, wow Wang Liping is so amazing! I would sure be whit a dropped jaw many days remembering that experience, something that it must feel so strong to see it whit you own eyes and not just read it in the Internet! ...My teacher has encouraged me to share these secrets with you all, and I’m happy to be of service. It’s my deep wish that this teaching will be reborn and the wish of the masters living in China. Otherwise it will die. These posts represent the possibility of a real opportunity. Otherwise I would not be here to waste your time and hold carrot in front of your faces. I’m here because I sense a maturity and kinship and because my teacher asked me to. But, first we get to know each other. We can share a little and dream together, if you are interested, and, if not, that’s okay too. Enough for now- Best, Sean I want to dream whit you and many others about this so much interesting subjects, now I feel that the tears I have share for this Chi Kung arts begin to heal, because I was hoping and hope still and still whit tears in my eyes that precious arts like Martial Art and Chi Kung don't be lost forever, I hope this arts be alive to never be lost again! Regards:) /Hugo seandenty


Dear All, I think we’ve come to a good stopping point. You all have my respect and I’m pleased with the general common courtesy and level of respect shown by the members here. I told David you were a good group and you didn’t let me down. So, as promised, I will share a taste of my experience. As some of you have rightly guessed in emails to me, David is my teacher. If you do have an interest in continuing these conversations, I would invite you to email me personally. Please send me an email even if you have already contacted me; in the

subject line of your email just write “FOUNDATION” in caps. In the email please write your full name and nothing more. Please, no further comments or questions; save those for David. Please don’t PM me as I won’t be checking the forum here any time soon unless David asks me to add any further information about these experiences. What follows is a personal account of my recent trip to Asia that I shared with some fellow students. This particular letter focuses in on my experience with two masters I met who are in the Lei Shan Dao, thunder path lineage. Like John Chang or Dijang, whichever you prefer, they displayed abilities beyond the scope of mainstream reality, including telekinesis, pyrogenesis, alteration of fluids and matter (alchemy), manifestation of spiritual light and sounds and other incredible things. They are both amazing people too. Please note that I hold both these men in the highest esteem and personal attacks would be very hurtful. It’s easy to say hurtful things when you’re looking in from the outside, but both these men deserve your respect even if you are only reading about them. To protect their privacy, I have not used there actual names. Sherfu J, the master that recently accepted David as a family student, has trained over thirty students to the so called level four and above. Apparently this is usually accomplished in only a few years with the training that he gives. When you compare that to the fact that the head of Mo Pai, John Chang has brought no students to this level in thirty years, it’s easy to see that the Mo Pai system is a much more raw and unrefined technique. Despite Sherfu Chang’s immense power, he is one of the highest masters of the Lei Shan Dao alive; he hasn’t been successful in his teaching, in part because he never intended to do so. In all this time, he has only truly accepted two students as real family, both Chinese. Here’s my letter: “Okay here is a taste of what I experienced. Jordon’s description of Sherfu L was very accurate and my experience was very similar. I can actually still feel where he touched the top of my head and my mid eye point when I practice, so I think there was something to what David said about the empowerment he gave helping us with the practice. L’s treatment was more of an empowerment I would say, as opposed to a healing or diagnosis which a better descriptor for Sherfu J’s treatment; I’m sure that both masters probably do both. When L touches the top of your head with his qi, you literally see a light like a Forth of July sparkler. You don’t see with your visual center, but, at least it seemed this way to me, you see it with your mind or perceive it with your mind; it’s still very physical and bright. Also the music he played while he was treating me was really interesting; some kind of chanting like nothing I’ve ever heard. It really stuck with me. During the treatment, as L worked on various points around my body, my muscles would contract so strongly that I couldn’t keep my hands held together in the position he had me hold no matter how much I resisted. After when we meditated at L’s house, I felt a steady pressure on the bai hui point and it felt like my whole body had been pressurized with qi. Sherfu L was also a very gracious host. He offered us a great deal of very strong Chinese tea and said some blessings for us. He’s very devoted to Kuan Yin the Goddess. After we left, I could still feel a bit of a buzz and felt very calm. Even a few nights after,

I could feel his energy or the effects of his energy on many of the points he worked on; especially the upper points. I still feel the effects of his treatment as some areas have been permanently activated. L is also a martial artist and has done a lot of work with the military if I remember correctly. He looks it too with short cropped hair and definitely an athlete. The guy was very gentle, but there were a few pictures of him on the wall doing some hardcore kung fu; the guy could probably kill you with his pinky. According to David he teaches a technique where you gradually learn to absorb higher and higher voltages of electricity from a wall socket or a generator directly into your body to boost your power. I guess when you get really good you can absorb energy directly from the environment; you just suck it in to body. David said these students learn to absorb over 200 volts or something like that. Anyway, it’s enough to kill you quick; pretty amazing. Sherfu J was totally different. Where L is very modest in the way he lives, very simple and in a modest area of town, J is a little more… well let’s just say he likes nice things. When we met him for the first time, he was wearing a bright red basketball jersey and matching shorts with some sporty flip flops. He had a big smile on his face and came out to greet us very warmly. His home is very nice, with marble flooring, big overstuffed leather coaches and a giant big screen TV. Actually in the setting we were in, I found it quite tasteful. From what I gathered, when you’re in Sherfu’s town, you really get taken care of and he entertains a great deal. After the second day I realized that the material luxuries are most likely really for the people who come to visit and that Sherfu and everything about him is about taking care of other people. From my short stay with him, I really feel I’ve met one of the most amazing people I may ever meet. From what I’m told, He spends most of his time doing charity work and helping people during our stay he fed us and paid for our accommodations and seemed to be very concerned with our comfort and really went out of his way to make sure we were doing well during our stay. And the food was really amazing. The day after the ceremony, which was also quite an experience, Sherfu came to visit our hotel a few blocks from his home and began treating us one after the other. He would have each person sit in front of him with their feet on a wet towel. Then his assistant would come over and ground your feet by pressing the main energy point firmly and passing his qi into the sole of the foot. Then J would activate his qi by concentrating and doing a short breathing exercise while he pushed the qi into his hands by pressing them into the air in front of him a couple times. After he’s done this he asks the person to stand and holds their hand while he directs the qi into their body by pushing his other hand along the length of his arm and then into the body. When he “injects” you with his chi, the muscles in your arm gently, but irresistibly contract as his qi courses into your body. His qi is more like a steady magnetic force that produces a strong gentle current wherever he moves it in your body. At this point he relaxes and begins systematically touching various points on that side of your body. He touched different points on different people and each time the corresponding part of the body would gently and suddenly contract. When he was done checking a given side of your body, he would use this same technique of guiding the qi to pull his qi back into his arm. This was very interesting to watch. After he checked each person he would give a detailed report through the translator about the condition of each persons health and status of their over all energy and issue a clean bill of health or advise further treatment.

Sherfu recommended further treatment for several people in our group, including myself, later that day. The healings and treatments he administered that afternoon were probably the most remarkable and amazing things I have witnessed in my life up to this point. I will certainly never forget what I saw and what I went through. The only thing I can compare it to is watching my son’s birth. It wouldn’t be appropriate to share what others in the group went through in terms of their treatment, but I can tell you about my experience. I’m sharing this because, if I were you I’d want to hear it and hopefully it’s worth telling. Anyway after a big lunch at Sherfu’s house, I was asked to stay behind with the translator and some of Sherfu’s students. Three weeks earlier Sherfu L found an imbalance in my kidneys. He didn’t make much of it, but suggested I take some herbs which he prepared the following day and said that he felt the imbalance was due to improper qigong practice. Perhaps he planted a seed in me; I don’t know, but I had some experiences in the weeks after and something told me to go to China even though I didn’t really have the money. As a side, David said that many people who practice the Healing Dao methods end up with this type of imbalance. In any case, on the morning that Sherfu J tested us, as he passed his qi into my left side the qi began to pulse, stopping and starting in a kind of rhythm as my arm contracted and released. He said that I had a fairly serious blockage in my kidney area and would need to draw some of the stagnant blood out and prepare some special herbal pills. One of the members of our group had been through something very similar and having shared their story, prepared me to some degree for what I was about to experience. That afternoon Sherfu had me stand on his porch as he lanced the veins in the back of both my knees with a prong the size of a knitting needle what seemed like at least a half inch into the flesh. After he got the blood flowing he used his qi to push the affected blood out of my body. What came out of me was about a half pint of what looked like roof tar. It was literally black and thick like a paste. Sherfu said that if I hadn’t come to him, I would have been quite possibly hit with a stroke within the year. After the treatment I actually felt really good. I was given several large herbal “pills” to clear anything that was left in my system. According to Sherfu, because of the properties of the type of medicine that I was given, I will never have to worry about this problem again and will be able to reach my optimal health. I guess these pills have a lot of qi and are a specialty of this lineage. I have to say, I really have been feeling good since I’ve been back. The Translator who was with me told me that when he met Sherfu he was completely paralyzed in his left arm and couldn’t turn his neck at all. Apparently he had the same kind of blockage or blood condition as me, but more advanced; he said that he was totally cured within two years of meeting Sherfu J. In addition to the treatments I experienced and witnessed, Sherfu and his student, the translator, demonstrated there ability to transform water into this sweet nectar with their qi. Some people in the group had asked David if they could see this particular demo, so David politely requested for the group. Basically Sherfu just took a bottle of ordinary water and let everyone have a taste. Then he set the water on the table and pushes some qi into it for a minute or two. When he’s done we all got to taste it; it’s like sweet honey, but not like any kind of recognizable sweet taste. His student did the same demo later that night. It was really amazing and, at the same time, just very matter of fact and done with out any preparation. I’m told Sherfu’s favorite demo is to take a nice steak in his palm, crack an egg on it and fry it to a perfect medium rare right in his hand. Pretty freaking slick.

We also got to see a woman demo her yin yang gong by giving David a jolt of qi. The women in our group were very inspired to see a woman, who had two children no less, who had achieved this power. The next morning at 6am, Sherfu called me back to his house and gave me several weeks worth of some more common herbs to take as a tonic and asked me to come back when I had an opportunity to do so. He was very kind and wished me well as I left that morning. Because I had to catch a connecting flight that afternoon in Shanghai, Sherfu arranged an 8 hour taxi ride through the Chinese countryside which was a great way to end my trip. That’s my story.” So, it’s been real, as they say and I’ve enjoyed chatting with you. Goodbye and God bless you all in your respective practices. Best, Sean Chi Addict 28th September 2006, 09:34 AM Much appreciated for sharing your experiences Sean. Also much thanks to Shaolin Wahnam for running such an open but well-moderated forum. I do hope there will be a revival of these teachings soon. There is much benefit it can bring to everyone. Shamsher


Hi Sean, what I wanted to ask you was: why would someone who can pass through walls be necessarily enlightened? That person may be cultivated to a high level but not necessarily enlightened. Not that I would know:) portcraig 29th September 2006, 05:31 AM I went with Sean to Thailand and met Shifu L, who David introduced us to. It was quite an experience for me. When he touched the different points I felt electricity pour through. I have felt different since that happened. David to me was quite normal, very educated, and knowledgeable about China, its culture, and of course Masters. I don't know what David was into in his younger days but right now he is focused on living and studying with Shifu J in China in order to try and achieve Yin Yang Gong. I met David for the first time in August. I attended a two week Foundation Training retreat which he taught to a group of 7 people in Thailand. I didn't go to China with Sean as I didn't have the extra money or time to go. Sean was

the only one of our group to go. We were all invited. I was not sent to this forum by David to defend him. I am just giving my experience and point of view. Jordon Hi Guys,


I think it's important to say something here about the guy who calls himself "Raja Jin". I don't intend to take part in this discussion, I just want to let some of the forum members here know who Raja Jin is and why you shouldn't listen to him. Raja Jin's name is Tony #####, he lives in Brisbane, Australia, and he suffers from a mental illness. One of his friends named Steve (who is also from Brisbane and suffers from a mental illness) was treated by John Chang a long time ago due to severe physical ailments. Sifu Chang treated Steve with acupunture and Qi and he was cured. I think this is why Tony seems to have such an interest in the Mo-Pai and the thunder path practices. Tony is in no way affiliated with the Mo Pai, or any other school like it. He has developed a reputation over the last few years as a trouble maker who likes to spread rumours about people such as Andreas, Kostas and now David. He can be quite irrational and he also has a history of threatening people. If you want proof just go to the Cyberkwoon forum and read some of his posts. It's all in this thread... http://www.cyberkwoon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11654&highlight=mopai You will see that he probably suffers from Schizophrenia, and I was told he is also Bipolar. I know that what he has written on this forum so far doesn't sound much like the ramblings of a schizophrenic, but please don't take him seriously. I think you guys have a great forum here so I thought it would be best to let you all know that Tony doesn't know anything about these practices (or any of the people who teach them), even though he says a lot of things and trys to make himself sound like he knows what he is talking about. Regards, Jordon Antonius

29th September 2006, 11:05 AM I've taken care of Raja Jin and his post, but I deleted his name from your post, Jodon. We're not in the business of making named accusations like that. Okay, back to our reguarly scheduled programming. raja jin

29th September 2006, 12:17 PM Dear jordan, Its very nice to see you have taken such an interest in me and my posts.

Considering the fact that i have never met you before or even heard your name,basically sums up everything. As far as rumours about Andreas & Kosta are concerned..........everybody knows about the true nature of these individuals and the punishment they bought upon themselves and others. so nothing more really needs to be said. cheers. unseen 30th September 2006, 06:38 AM Dear Jorden. Jordon there seems to be a lot of mental illiness in Brisbane,from what u say.Where do u think it may come from.Also it is a long way for this Steve to go for accupunture treatment don,t u think darkrider 2nd October 2006, 05:47 PM whenever i think of mental illness, i cant stop shaking. how close was anyone who did not get mental illness, to getting it?...... good thoughts, good thoughts...-darkrider Chi Addict Hi guys,

3rd October 2006, 02:35 AM

On a related note, i wanted to share something related to this thread. Years before i even read abt the Magus of Java, i remembered watching a few Taiwanese variety shows where they invited neigong masters to perform various feats. One of them was giving qi 'massage' by lightly touching the particpants' face. You could see their face contort from the reactions to the 'electric' flow. The master also lightly touched other parts, causing the arm to jerk uncontrollably. At that time, i was thinking wow this master must have a lot of chi to do that. On hindsight, he was most probably a yin-yang gong master. Interesting. Anyone recalled watching that show? darkrider 6th October 2006, 06:32 PM this is not about anything between raja jin and jordan, so dont group me together. about that yellow stone that manifested out of thin air, raja said that it could hold down anything, a car, or a plane. you said what use is that'', just think. if an enemy is escaping in some vehicle, simply put it down, and he/she cannot run away.

in other words, theres always a use for something, you just dont always know what for. 'wonder what pieces of it could do?;) think mc guyver, with just gum and a paper clip. -respect to the good, darkrider Omar

21st November 2006, 05:05 AM Quite an amazing thread, this is. I've been up all night reading through it, time passes so fast when you are enjoying yourself :eek: Early on ther was some discussion about Chang San Feng, and I became curious about him. Heres a nicecly put together page of information about him. http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/chang1.htm I will now go do my morning chi kung and then get some sleep. Thank you to everyone contributing to this thread so far. hermit 14th December 2006, 05:55 AM I just started reading this thread...does anyone know how I can reach 3rdlevelmopai? HugoDarien 22nd December 2006, 12:50 AM I dont know dear hermit but you can be introduce to the magic of tao in this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFzitJzlwYQ Regards ~ Hugo Antonius Dear Shifu Andreas,

24th December 2006, 04:52 PM

We have had several emails back and forth over the years, and I have shown nothing but respect for your teacher and your organization. I have made public announcements on your behalf, edited threads for you on this forum, and personally fielded numerous questions from people looking for your teacher. I made this effort for one reason -- as a gesture of respect. Sadly, that respect has not been reciprocated. I am extremely disappointed that, in spite of all my efforts to help your organization, you chose to publicly disrespect us in your first post -- and on Christmas Eve nonetheless. Christmas is a time for spreading goodwill and love, not anger and aggression. Our family forum is not a place for angry political battles amongst other organizations.

As far as I know, Jim (aka 3rdLevelMoPai) has not broken any rules, so he has not been banned. If he has been posting misinformation about your teacher, then someone from your organization could have contacted me privately, as they have done in the past. Or you could have posted a response long ago. You may remember that I sent you an email after Jim's first post bringing your attention to it and inviting you to respond. You chose not to respond to me or Jim until now. Our forum is generally open to outsiders who follow the rules, but I believe that this has gone on far enough. I will consult with my Sifu, but I think it is probably time to delete all of the "Magus of Java" threads and wash our hands of this matter. After all, this issue has nothing to do with us, our students, or our organization. We are innocent bystanders. Certainly, this kind of Christmas "cheer" has no place on our family forum. Sincerely, respectfully, and disappointed, Andreas

25th December 2006, 12:32 AM

Dear Antonius, I'm sorry it has happened this way, but this situation is what it is. Yes you’ve been kind, understanding and helpful, but and the same time you’ve stood by and done nothing. You have numerous anonymous members with multiple accounts having conversations with themselves and attacking others…who are incidentally all part of the Grandmaster Jim misfit club. I’d hardly refer to that kind of environment as one where people could have an intelligent discussion, and talk things through. This is the place where Jim was allowed to post his lunatic ravings, and was even aided by a moderator in making his crap readable. I explained my terms to Jim in July and waited 6 months. If he really is level 3 and been truthful in his post, then he won’t have a problem facing me and Shifu. If not, well no matter how good it sounds, it will be obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense. Am I being aggressive, no…just cleaning things up. Think its time 3 members from your forum here in Australia, 2 in Brisbane and one in Perth and Jim get a dose of reality. Warmest Regards & Merry Xmas Andreas.. raja jin


I think Everybody ought to take a deep Breath ! This challenging stuff is just crazy. Most people have calmed down & over all have just been content with what they know trying to better themselves. Forgive your Enemies & learn to love thy neighbour. Surely the World will be a better & happier place. Andreas

Dear Tony(Raja Jinn),


Hope you have had a nice Xmas. I understand your point and appreciate your good intentions, but what's right is right. You rang me and apologized to me a short time ago and got Tu Le to own up and apologize...and certain posts were taken down also on another forum...everything solved. But understand, I've given Jim 6 months and now it's time to face the music. I have his address and details now...so either he takes down these posts and posts an apology as I asked him to 6 months ago or he meets me at Shifu's. I doubt he has the stones... so I'll probably have to look him up in the US. You know once upon a time, when men were men, and sheep weren't nervious...men had the stone's and honour mean't something. We will see what level Bali Bruce is soon enough. Anyway, enjoy your holidays...and thanks again. Warmest Regards & GB Andreas.. raja jin 25th December 2006, 08:48 PM Well i just wish everybody well & hope we can all get along for a change. Thankyou for the kind words Andreas,and yes once again i Apologize for any harm i have ever caused on these forums. Sincerly, Tu Le Dear Andreas,


Can't we all just get along. Look, I'm pretty confident that Antonius Siheng and Sifu will make a decision to delete the entire MAgus of Java thread. Again, I apologise for any inconvinience I have caused to you. So, Dear Sifu and Siheng Antonius, Siheng Andrew, Please, can you remove the entire thread "the MAgus of Java"? Surely, it has nothing to do with Shaolin Wahnam. Don't forget: ONE WORD HAS THE ABILITY TO START A WAR Andreas, - Smile from the heart

:) If you don't know how to, heres another example: :D Oh yea, Merry Christmas Everyone. Oh wait, just past.... Happy Boxing Day!!! Tu Le


Forgot to tell you Andreas. Jim doesn't know how to delete his messages on this forum. Actually, nobody except for the moderators can delete or modify their own posts after a given time limit. So the posts are there for good, unless the moderators can do something about it. So, I ask you again moderators: Can you please delete this entire thread "Magus of Java" so that everyone can move on and forget the whole thing? HugoDarien


Hello! I just want to said: PLEASE, can you have litle patience, my Sihengs and Sifu are thinking, it going to take litle time! Regards Hugo PS. I belive they are going trought all the post in the thread, to make a wise desicion! qistudent

26th December 2006, 02:46 PM Whatever Sifu Wong and the moderators decide to do with this thread I respect since this is their house and we are guests here. I just wanted to add that a lot of valuable information has been shared here. People who have read the book were full with questions and this thread was more than helpful in answering certain questions. People in the future will read this book and will have the same questions. Most have nowhere to go and will be more than happy when they discover the amount of useful information that has been shared here. Would it be possible to only have the negative and offensive deleted from this thread and to keep the discussion open? I have nothing but respect for Sifu Wong and the organization for allowing us

to have this discussion here. Qistudent Antonius Dear all,


I received an apology from Shifu Andreas via private message, and I have accepted his apology. At his request, and with Sifu's permission, I have deleted one of his posts. I have discussed the matter of this thread with Sifu Wong. Despite Tu Le's request, we have decided to leave the thread open for the time being. We have many good reasons for this decision, but the most important is that we want to encourage peace among the different groups here. As many of you have seen, challenges still happen today. Shaolin Wahnam has been challenged many times, in public and private, for its open honesty about internal force, curing incurable diseases, and other so-called "supernatural" powers. We have also experienced our share of internal political battles. However, Shaolin Wahnam overcame all of these problems and remains a happy, healthy, and unified family. We would like to encourage the same in others. In the spirit of the holidays, I would respectfully request that everyone take a few days to practice forgiveness. Afterwards, if people choose to do so, they may continue posting their opinions in this thread. I trust that the discussion will remain respectful and reasonable, and that everyone will work towards a peaceful resolution, either in public or in private. (Note: We will not be deleting any more posts for the time being. For the record, we cannot simply delete someone's posts just because a few people request it. Even if a user requests that his own posts be deleted, the moderators and administrators have to be very careful not to delete evidence or disrupt the flow of a thread. It would be better to delete the entire thread. This is common practice on internet forums, and is the reason that one typically cannot edit or delete one's own posts 15 minutes after they have been submitted. Nevertheless, there are rare times when administrators choose to edit or delete posts for the benefit of the thread and the forum.) Happy holidays to all, Tu Le

27th December 2006, 12:07 AM Andreas, sir. I pmed you something important. I do wish you and Jim will sort this out in a civilised manner and become good friends again. With respect, - Tu Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2015 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.

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