Duncan v. Becerra, 3:17-cv-01017 - Oral Argument

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UNI TED STATES DI DI STRI CT CO COURT

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FOR FO R THE THE SOU SOUTHERN THERN DI STRI CT OF OF CALI FO FORN RNI A

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VI RG RGI NI A DUNCAN, ET AL ,

. . PL AI NTI FFS, . NO. 17- CV- 1017 . V. . MAY 10, 2018 . XAVI ER BECERRA, ET AL. , . SAN DI EGO, CALI FORNI A . DEFENDANTS. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..

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 TRA  TRANSCR SCRI PT OF MOTI ON HEAR EARI NG BEFO BEFORE THE HO HONORABL RABL E ROG ROGER T. BENI BENI TEZ TEZ UNI TED STATES STATES DI DI STRI STRI CT J UDGE

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APPEARANCES:

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FOR FO R THE THE PLAI NTI FFS:

MI CHEL & ASSO SSOCI ATES PC BY: ANN ANNA M. BARV BARVII ER AND AND CLI NT MONFORT 180 EAST OCEA OCEAN N BOUL EVARD EVARD, STE. 200 L ONG BEAC BEACH, CALI CALI FO FORN RNI A 90802

FOR FO R THE THE DEFEN EF END DANTS: ANTS:

OFF FFII CE OF THE THE CALI FO FORN RNI A ATTORN ATTORNEY GENERA ENERAL L BY: J OHN DARRO ARROW ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A 300 300 S. SPRI SPRI NG STR STREET, EET, STE. STE. 1702 1702 L OS ANG ANGELES, CALI FO FOR RNI A 90013

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COURT REPORTER: TER:

J ULI ET Y. EI CHENLAU ENLAUB B, RPR, PR, CSR USDC SDC CL ERK' ERK' S OFF FFII CE 333 333 WEST EST BROADW ADWAY, ROOM 420 420 SAN SAN DI EGO EGO, CA CALI FO FOR RNI A 92101 92101  J ULI ET_EI ET_ EI CHENLAU ENLAUB B@CASD. USCO SCOURTS. GOV

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REPORTED REPORTED BY STEN ST ENO OTYPE TY PE,, TRANSCRI TRANSCRI BED BY COMPUTER

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08: 43: 20

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SAN SAN DI EGO, CALI FO FOR RNI A; MAY 10, 10, 2018 2018;; 10: 10: 06 A. M.

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- O0O0O-

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 THE  THE CLERK: LERK:

BECER ECERR RA, ET AL; MOTI ON HEAR EARI NG.

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 THE  THE COURT:

ALL RI GHT.

COUNSEL, SEL, PLEASE PLEASE REGI STER STER YO YOU UR

APPEARAN APP EARANCES FO F OR THE RECORD RECORD..

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ONE ON CALEND LENDAR, 17C 17CV1017 1017,, DUNCAN VS.

MS. BARVI R:

ANNA M. BARVI R, B- A- R- V- I - R, FO FOR R

PLAI PLAI NTI FF VI VI RGI NI A DUNCAN.

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MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

GOOD MORN RNII NG, YO YOU UR HONOR.

J OHN

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ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A, E- C- H- E- V- E- R- R- I - A, FO FOR R DEFEN EFENDANT XA XAVI ER

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BECERR BECERRA. A.

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MR. MONFORT:

GOOD MORN RNII NG, YOUR YOUR HONOR.

CLI CLI NT

MONFO FORT, RT, ALSO FO FOR R THE THE PL AI NTI FF DUNCAN. AN.  THE  THE COURT: MR. MONFO FOR RT:  THE  THE COURT:

I ' M SORRY; WHAT WAS YO YOU UR LAST NAME? MONFO FOR RT, M- O- N- F- O- R- T. ALL RI GHT.

WELL, LET' S SEE. SEE.

TOD TO DAY WE

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HAVE AVE A MOTI ON FOR SUM SUMMARY ARY J UDGMENT ENT FI L ED BY THE THE PLAI PL AI NTI FF.

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I GUESS THE RECORD SHO SHOUL D REFL REFL ECT TH T HAT I N SUPPORT SUPPORT OF OF THE

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MOTI ON, I N OPPOSI PPOSI TI ON TO THE THE MOTI ON, I HAVE, I BELI EVE EVE TO BE

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APPROXI APPROXI MATELY ATEL Y A FOO FOOT AND AND A HALF HALF OF EXH EXHII BI TS AND AND BRI BRI EFS EF S THAT THAT

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HAVE BEEN BEEN F I L ED. ED.

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I HAVE DONE MY BEST TO T O READ THRO THROUGH ALL ALL OF

 THI  THI S AND TO TRY TRY TO DI GEST EST I T.

I CERTA ERTAII NLY DON' T PRO PROMI SE THA THAT I

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RECA ECALL EVER EVERYTH YTHII NG THA THAT I ' VE REA READ D, OR THA THAT I RECA ECALL I T

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CORRECTL ECTLY, Y, BUT I ' VE CERTAI ERTAI NL Y DO DONE MY BEST. BEST.

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AND AND

SO WHY DO DON' T WE BEGI N, FI RST OF ALL, ALL , WI TH THE THE

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10: 07: 18

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PLAI PL AI NTI FF FF..

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L OOK TO I N ORDER TO DECI DE TH THI S MOTI ON AND AND WHY YO Y OU THI NK I

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SHO SHOUL D RUL RUL E I N YO YOU UR FAVOR?

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YOU YO U TELL TEL L ME:

MS. BARV BARVII R:

WHAT I S THE THE STANDARD ARD THAT THAT I HAVE AVE TO

SO THE FL OOR I S YOU YOURS.

THAN THANK K YO YOU U, YO YOU UR HONOR.

I N RESPON RESPONSE TO

 THE  THE COURT' S QUESTI ESTI ON ABOUT THE THE STAN STANDARD THA THAT PLAI NTI FFS MUST

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MEET EET I N ORDER RDER FO FOR THE CO COURT TO TO RUL RUL E I N OUR FAVOR, FAVOR, OBVI OUSLY SL Y O ON N

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A MOTI ON FOR SUMMARY J UDGMENT THERE T HERE NEEDS TO TO BE NO DI SPUTED SP UTED

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FACT, FACT, MATERI ATERI AL FACT, FACT, AND PLAI PL AI NTI FF FFS S SHO SHOUL D BE ENTI ENTI TLED TL ED TO

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 J UDGMENT ENT AS A MATTER OF LAW. I N THE SECO SECOND AMENDMENT CASE, ACCO ACCORDI RDI NG TO NI NTH

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CI RC RCU UI T PREC P RECED EDEN ENT, T, STEMMI NG FROM FROM UNI TED STATES VERSU VERSUS S CHO CHOVAN VAN,

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 THE  THE PLAI NTI FFS MUST SHO SHOW THA THAT THE THE CONDUCT THA THAT THEY' THEY' RE BARRED

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FROM PARTI PARTI CI PATI NG I N I S PROTECTED TECTED UNDER THE THE SCO SCOPE OF OF THE THE

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SECO SECOND AMENDMENT.

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THEN ONCE THEY' THEY' VE DONE THAT, THAT, I T BECOMES THE

BURD BURDEN OF THE STATE TO ESTABLI ESTABLI SH THAT THAT TH THE LAW L AW THAT THAT TH THEY HAVE AVE

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PASSED AND AND ENF ENFORC RCED ED AGAI NST PL P L AI NTI FFS CAN CAN MEET TH T HE APPRO APPROPRI ATE

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L EVEL OF HEI HEI GHTENED TENED REVI REVI EW.

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EXCU EXCUSE ME - - SHO SHOUL D BE AT LEAST I NTERMEDI EDI ATE SCRU SCRUTI TI NY.

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THAT THAT SHO SHOUL D BE STRI CT SCRU SCRUTI TI NY - -

BUT I N THI THI S CAS CASE, E, BECAU ECAUSE SE THE THE LAW AT I SSUE SSUE I MPOSES POSES A

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FL AT BAN BAN ON I TEMS OVER OVERW WHELM EL MI NGL Y CHO CHOSEN BY LAW L AW- ABI ABI DI NG CI TI ZENS ZENS

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FOR FO R THE THE CO CORE L AWFUL FUL PUR PURPOSE POSE OF SELFSEL F- DEFENSE, EFENSE, I T I S I NI MI CAL TO

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SECON SECOND AMENDMENT ENT PROTE PROTECTI CTI ONS FO F OR SUCH SUCH ARMS AND AND I T I S I NVALI D

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UNDER UNDER ANY ANY TEST THE THE CO COURT MAY APPL Y.

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I NVAL VAL I D AS THE CO COURT RECO RECOGNI ZED I N I TS ORDER GRA GRAN NTI NG MOTI ON

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FOR FO R PRELI PRELI MI NARY I NJ UNCTI ON LAST LAST J UNE.

I T I S CATEG CATEGO ORI CAL CAL L Y

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 THE  THE COURT:

CAN YO YOU U DI STI NGUI SH FO FOR R ME THE THE FYOC FYOCK

CASE?

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MS. BARVI R:

THE THE FYOCK CASE, SE, I BELI EVE, EVE, I S

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DI STI NGUI SHAB SHABL L E BECAU BECAUSE SE THAT THAT WAS ON APPEAL APPEAL FRO F ROM THE THE DEN DENII AL OF OF A

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MOTI ON FO FOR R PRELI MI NARY ARY I NJ UNCTI ON.

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WAS, THE THE - - EXCU EXCUSE ME.

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APP APPEALS EAL S I S GOI NG TO BE WHETH ET HER OR NO NOT THE L OWER COUR COURT T ABUSE ABUSED D

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I TS DI SCR SCRETI ON.

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COURT TH THERE FO F OUND THAT THE EVI DENCE ENCE WOUL D BE SUFFI SUFF I CI ENT TO

THE THE STAND STANDARD ARD OF REVI EW FOR THE THE CO COURT OF

THE THE COURT THER THERE E DI D FI ND THA THAT - - THE THE TRI TRI AL

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SUSTAI SUSTAI N THE THE LAW.

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VERY HARD HARD F OR THE THE STATE ST ATE TO T O PROTE PROTECT. CT.

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THE THE EVI EVI DENC ENCE I N THAT THAT CASE ASE

BUT AG AGAI N, ON APPEAL APPEAL , THAT THAT STANDARD ARD I SN' SN' T

WHEREAS HERE, WE' RE ON MSJ .

WE' RE GOI NG TO BE

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L OOKI NG AT ALL AL L THE EVI DENCE ENCE AND DETERM ETERMI NI NG WHETH ETHER WE HAVE

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SI MI L AR OR SAM SAME EVI EVI DENC ENCE AS SUB SUBMI TTED I N FYOC FYOCK.

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WE DO DO.

I DON' T THI THI NK

AND AND EVEN I F WE DI DI D, THE STANDARD STANDARD THAT WE' RE GOI NG TO BE

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L OOKI NG AT HERE HERE I S OF OF MUCH FUL L ER RECO RECORD, AND AND I THI NK THAT THAT WE

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HAVE SHO SHOWN - - PL AI NTI FFS HAVE HAVE SHOWN THAT THAT TH T HE STATE ST ATE CANN CANNOT

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SUSTAI SUSTAI N I TS BURD BURDEN, EN, CANN ANNOT FU F UL FI L L I TS BURD BURDEN UNDER AN ANY LEVEL L EVEL

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OF SCR SCRUTI NY.

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NONE OF OF TH T HE EVI DENCE ENCE THAT THAT THE STATE HAS HAS PRO PROVI DED, ED,

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NONE OF OF THE FACTUAL FACTUAL CLAI MS THEY' RE MAKI NG NOW, ARE REAL REALL L Y ANY ANY

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DI FF FFEREN ERENT FRO F ROM THE THE CLAI MS THEY THEY WERE MAKI AKI NG I N SUPP SUPPO ORT OF OF THEI THEI R

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MPI .

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BRO BROADEST POSSI POSSI BLE MEANS EANS FO F OR FURTHER FURTHERII NG I TS OBV OBVII OUSLY SL Y COM COMPEL L I NG

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PUB PUBLI C I NTEREST TEREST AND PUB PUBLI C SAFETY. SAFETY.

WHEN I T COMES DO DOWN TO I T, THE STATE HAS HAS CH CHOSEN THE

I T' S A FLA FL AT BAN ON

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L AW- ABI ABI DI NG CI TI ZEN ZENS' ABI ABI L I TY TO OWN WHAT WE BEL BEL I EVE EVE ARE ARE

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PROTECTED TECTED MAGAZI AGAZI NES TH T HAT ARE NECES NECESSARY SARY FO F OR THE THE PRO PROPER FU FUNCTI ON

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OF THEI THEI R FI REARM REARMS TO BE USED USED I N SELFSEL F- DEFENSE, AND AND BY CH CHOOSI NG

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 THA  THAT MEAN EANS, TAKI TAKI NG THEM THEM NOT ONLY FR FRO OM CRI MI NALS WHI CH MAY BE

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ONE WAY THE STATE CAN CAN DO I T, THEY' THEY' RE CH CHOOSI NG TO TAKE TH THEM FROM

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ALL PEOPLE, LAW- ABI DI NG CI TI ZENS, ENS, I NCLUD LUDI NG PEOPLE LI KE PATR PATRII CK

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L OVETTE WHO' S OW OWNED THEM THEM FOR 20- PLU PL US YEARS WI THO THOUT I NCI DENT. ENT.

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 THE  THE COURT:

HOW MANY PEOPLE HAS HE SHO SHOT OR I NJ URED

WI TH HI HI S GU GUNS?

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MS. BARVI R:

AS FAR AS PLA PL AI NTI FF I S AWARE, NO ONE

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EVER EVER..

MR. LOV LOVETTE I S A TRA TRAI NED - - CERTI ERTI FI ED AND TRA TRAI NED

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FI REARM REARMS I NSTRUC STRUCTO TOR. R.

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HI S MAGAZI AZI NES.

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I NDI VI DUALS I N THE THE CA CAREFUL EFUL AND SAFE, SAFE, EFFI CI ENT ENT USE USE OF FI REAR EARMS

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EQU EQUI PPED PP ED WI TH DETACHAB ETACHABL L E MAGAZI AZI NES FO F OR USE USE I N SELF SEL F- DEFEN EF ENSE SE AND AND

HE' S VERY VERY CAR CAREFUL EFUL WI TH HI S FI REARM REARMS AND AND

HE USES USES THO THOSE MAGAZ AGAZII NES TO TRAI N OTHER THER

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I N DEFENSE EF ENSE OF OF OT OTHERS. ERS.

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WI TH AI RED SHO SHOTS OR OR AN ANYTHI YTHI NG L I KE THAT. THAT.

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 THE  THE COURT:

MS. BARVI R:

 THE  THE COURT:

HOW MANY OF YO YOU UR MEMBERS ERS HAVE SHO SHOT OR

KI L L ED ANYO ANYON NE OR OR I NJ URED ANYO ANYON NE WI TH THEI THEI R WEAPON EAPONS?

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CALI FO FOR RNI A RI FLE FL E AND PI STOL ASSO SSOCI ATI ON,

 YES,  YES, YO YOU UR HONOR.

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YOU YO U ALSO REPRES EPRESEN ENT T AN ORGANI ZATI ON, DON' T

 YOU  YOU?

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HE' S NO NOT KNOWN TO HAVE HARM HARMED ANYON ANYONE

MS. BARVI R:  TO THA THAT.

I ' M SORRY TO SAY SAY I DON' T KN KNOW THE THE ANSWER

BUT I WOULD ASSU SSUME THA THAT I T' S VERY ERY LOW LOW.

WE HAVE NOT

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BEEN - - THE THE CA CALI FO FOR RNI A RI RI FLE FL E AND PI STOL ASSOCI ATI ON HAS NO NOT

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BEEN, HAS NO NOT COME FORW FORWARD TO SAY TH THAT' S EVER HAPPENED APP ENED..

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VAST MAJ ORI TY OF MEMBERS AND AND SUPPO SUPPORTERS OF OF CR CRPA PA ARE LAW L AW- ABI DI NG

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CI TI ZEN ZENS WHO ARE ARE SAFE SAFE WI TH THEI THEI R FI REAR EARMS.

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REGUL ARL ARL Y I N THE THE SAFE AND AND EFFI EFF I CI ENT ENT USE USE OF OF TH T HEI R FI REARM REARMS FOR FOR

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SELF SEL F- DEFEN EF ENSE SE AND AND HUNTI NG AND AND COMPETI PET I TI ON.

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COMPETI PETI TI VE SHOOTI NG EVENTS EVENTS WHERE TH T HESE SORTS SORTS OF OF MAGAZI AGAZI NES ARE

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USED. SED.

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DON' T KNO KNOW THAT THAT WE ESTABLI SHED SHED THAT THAT I N THE THE EVI DENC ENCE THAT' THAT' S

THE

THEY THEY PRAC PRACTI TI CE

CRPA CR PA PROVI PROVI DES

NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN HARMED I N THOSE EVENTS EVENTS..

WHI L E I

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BEFORE BEFORE YOU YOUR HO HONOR, THERE' THERE' S NO NOTHI THI NG TO SAY THAT THAT - - THERE' THERE' S NO NO

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EVI EVI DENC ENCE OTH OTHER ERW WI SE, EI THER THER..

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 THE  THE COURT:

I KEEP KEEP READ EADI NG I N ALL THI THI S I NFO FOR RMATI ON

 THA  THAT THER THERE' E' S NO HUNTI NG USE FO FOR R - - FI RST OF ALL, LL , LET ME POI POI NT OUT THAT A L OT OF WHAT WE' RE DEAL DEALII NG WI TH HERE HERE SORT SORT OF SEEM SEEMS TO TO I N A WAY MORPH WI TH DI SCUSSI SCUSSI ONS ABOUT WEAPON EAPONS LI L I KE TH THE AR- 15

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AND AND SO ON AND AND SO FORTH.

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I S WHAT I S DUBBED BBED AS A L ARG ARGE CAPAC CAPACII TY MAGAZI AZI NE.

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REAL EAL L Y TAL TAL KI NG ABO ABOUT AR AR- 15S, ET CETER CETERA. A.

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OF THE DI SCUSSI SCUSSI ON OF ON ONE MERGES ERGES WI TH THE OTHER.

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OF DI DI SCU SCUSSI ON I N HERE ERE I N - - AND PARTI PARTI CUL ARL ARL Y I N THE THE DEFEND EFENDANT' S

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FI L I NGS, THAT THAT THESE THESE WEAPO EAPON NS ARE ARE NO NOT USED USED - - L ARG ARGE CAPA CAPAC CI TY,

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WHAT TH THEY CALL CALL L ARGE CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES ARE NOT USED F OR

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HUNTI NG.

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WHAT WE' RE REALL REALL Y TAL TALKI KI NG ABOUT HERE WE' RE NOT

BUT OBVI OUSLY, SLY , A L OT THERE' S A L OT

NOW I S THAT THAT TRUE? TRUE? MS. BARVI R:

I T MAY N NO OT BE BE AS TRU TRUE I N CALI FO FOR RNI A

CONSI DERI NG THE ACCES ACCESS S TO TO ACQUI RE SUCH SUCH MAGAZI AGAZI NES HAS BEEN

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BARR ARRED TO NEW PEOPL PEOPLE E SI NCE 2000, 2000, BUT I T' S NO NOT TRU TRUE - - AS THE THE

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COURT WAS CALL CALL I NG THEM THEM - - AR' AR' S AND AND SUCH SUCH FI REARM REARMS THAT THAT ARE ARE

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CUSTOM STOMI ZABLE ZABLE ARE ARE USED USED I N SOM SOME SORTS OF HU HUNTI NG APPLI APPL I CATI ONS.

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KNO KN OW THAT THAT TH T HERE' S PRO PROBABL BABL Y SO SOME CON CONCERN THAT THAT TH T HERE' S HUN HUNTI NG

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REGUL ATI ONS I N CALI FO FORN RNI A WHERE CERTA CERTAII N TYPES TYP ES OF OF BUL BUL L ETS TH T HAT

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MI GHT BE COMMON I N AR' S ARE NOT TO BE BE USED I N HUNTI NG BUT BUT

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 THA  THAT' S -  THE  THE COURT: MS. BARVI R:  THE  THE COURT:

SO SMALLER LL ER CALI BER. ER. THEY' THEY' RE A SMALLER LL ER CALI BER - FOR FO R EXA EXAMPLE, A RUGER M- 14 WAS MODI FI ED I N

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ORDER TO ALL AL L OW A LARGER LARGER CAL CALII BER BECAU BECAUSE SE ANYT ANYTH HI NG L ESS TH T HAN 243

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CANN CANNOT BE USED USED TO HUNT DEER. EER.

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MS. BA BARVI R:  THE  THE COURT:

SO I T' S NOT A CORRECT ECT STATEM STATEMENT ENT TO SAY SAY

 THA  THAT LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY MAGAZI NES, ES, AS THEY THEY ARE DEFI NED, ARE I N FACT FACT

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NOT USED FOR FOR HU HUNTI NG.

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MS. BARV BARVII R:

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CORRECT. ECT.

 THE  THE COURT:

THAT' THAT' S CORREC RRECT, T, YO YOU UR HONOR. SO WHENEV ENEVER ER I SEE SEE OR HEAR EAR THA THAT, I T' S J UST

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BASI CALL CALL Y AN UN UNSUPPO SUPP ORTED RTED OPI NI ON ON THE THE PART OF SOM SOMEON EONE WHO

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SAYS THAT THAT TO T O BE THE THE CASE. CASE.

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MS. BARVI R:

I THI THI NK THA THAT' S RI GHT, YO YOU UR HONOR.

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 THI  THI NK THER THERE' E' S A LOT LOT OF MI SUN SUNDERSTA ERSTAN NDI NG ABOUT WHAT TYPES OF

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FI REARM REARMS AND AND AMMUNI TI ON AND AND AMMUNI TI ON MAGAZI AZI NES, I ' M SORR SORRY, Y,

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MI GHT BE NEE NEED DED OR NECESS ECESSARY ARY FO FOR SOMEONE TO GO HUNTI NG.

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AND AND I

 THI  THI NK A LOT LOT OF THA THAT TI ME - - A LOT LOT OF TI MES THA THAT COMES FR FRO OM

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10: 15: 25

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PEOPL PEOPLE E WHO ARE ARE NO NOT FAM F AMI L I AR WI TH THE THE SPO SP ORT.

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ALSO, ALSO, I F YO Y OU NOTI CE I N THE THE DEC DECL L ARATI ARATI ON OF MRS.

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VI RGI NI A DU DUNCAN, I T' S NO NOT PAR P ARTI TI CUL ARL ARL Y HU HUNTI NG, BUT SHE SHE DO DOES DO DO

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PREDATI PREDATI ON MANAG ANAGEMENT, ENT, AND AND SHE' SHE' S REGU REGUL ARL ARL Y DO DOI NG THI THI S SERVI CE

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FOR RAN RANCHERS CHERS AND FARMERS I N SOU SOUTHERN CALI CALI FORN RNII A AND AND SAN DI EGO EGO

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COUNTY TO T O PROTECT PROTECT THEI R LI VESTOCK VESTOCK AND AND THEI THEI R PROPERTY F ROM PACK

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HUNTI NG ANI ANI MALS. ALS.

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AND AND MI SS THEM THEM, AND AND THEY' THEY' RE CO COMI NG AT THEM THEM, I T' S A HAR HARD D TARG TARGET.

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A MOVI NG TARGET I S HAR HARD D TO ALWAYS HI T.

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 THE  THE COURT:

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MS. BARVI R:

 THE  THE COURT:

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YOU YO U MEAN EAN LI KE A COYO YOTE? TE? I THI THI NK SHE SPEC SPECII FI CALLY - - SHE

SPECI SPECI FI CALLY ALL Y GO GOES AFTER AFTER CO COYO YOTE, TE, YES.

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I F THEY' THEY' VE SHO SHOT ONE OR SHO SHOOTI NG AT SEVERAL SEVERAL

MS. BARVI ARVI R: HONOR.

EVER EVER TRY TRY TO SHO SHOOT ONE? I ' VE NEVER EVER TRI ED TO SHO SHOOT A COYO YOTE, TE, YO YOU UR

BUT I F THEY THEY MI SS, I F THER THERE' E' S MUL TI PLE PL E ANI MALS COMI NG AT

 THEM  THEM, I T' S DANGERO EROUS TO THE THE LI VESTO ESTOCK AS WELL AS THE THE RANCHERS ERS

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AND AND FARMERS I F THEY' EY ' RE AROUN AROUND AND OF COURSE URSE MS. DUNCAN AND AND HER

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HUSBA HUSBAND ND WHO DO THI S PREDAT P REDATII ON WORK.

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 THE  THE COURT:

BUT HUNTI NG, BY THE THE WAY, I S NOT SOMETHI ETHI NG

 THA  THAT' S PRO PROTECTED TECTED BY HELLER. ELLER.

A WEAPO EAPON N THA THAT' S USED SED AND POSS POSSES ESSE SED D

FOR FO R HU HUNTI NG I S NO NOT NEC NECESSAR ESSARII L Y PRO P ROTECTED BY HEL HELL L ER. MS. BARVI R: PROTECTED PROTECTED BY HELL EL L ER.

I DON' T KNOW THA THAT I T' S NECES ECESSA SAR RI LY WE HAVEN AVEN'' T REAL REALL L Y GOTTEN TTEN TO A DECI SI ON

 THA  THAT REALL EALLY Y GETS THER THERE, E, BUT HELLER ELL ER I S VERY ERY CLEAR LEAR THA THAT I T PROTE PROTECTS CTS FI F I REARM REARMS THAT - - AND AND NOW WE KNO KNOW AMMUNI TI ON AND AND PARTS

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10: 16: 47

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 THA  THAT ARE USED I N LAWFUL FUL PUR PURPOSE POSES. S.

WHI LE SELF SELF-- DEFENSE EFENSE I S THE THE

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CORE AS HEL HELL L ER RECO RECOGNI ZES, HELL EL L ER ALSO ALSO RECO RECOGNI ZES THERE THERE ARE

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OTHER THER LAWFUL PURPO PURPOSES, SES, AND AND HUNTI NG I S DEF DEFII NI TELY TEL Y SOM SOMETHI NG THAT THAT

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HAS A L ONG, L ONG TRAD TRADI TI ON I N THI THI S COUNTRY.

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SURV SURVII VED BEFORE BEFORE THE THE SUPERM SUPERMARKET ARKET WAS REGUL AR. AR.

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I T' S HOW PEOPL PEOPLE E SO I DEFI EF I NI TELY TEL Y

 THI  THI NK HELLER WOULD TELL US THA THAT HUNTI NG I S A PRO PROTECTED TECTED

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ACTI ACTI VI TY, TY, AND AND USI NG FI REARM REARMS FO F OR HU HUNTI NG WOUL D BE A PROTECTED PROTECTED

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ACTI VI TY.

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SAY SAY HU HUNTI NG I S AS CO CORE AS SELF- DEFENSE. EFENSE.

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BUT YOU' RE RI GHT, I T DOESN' ESN' T LI TERA TERALL Y CO COME OUT AN AND

 THE  THE COURT:

LET ME ASK YO YOU U A QUESTI ESTI ON:

THER THERE' E' S A LOT LOT

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OF DI SCUSSI SCUSSI ON ABOUT TH T HE FAC F ACT T TH T HAT TH THERE' S NO NO EVI DENCE ENCE THAT THAT WHAT

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ARE NO NOW KN KNO OWN AS LARG L ARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES ARE USED FOR

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SELF SELF-- DEFENSE. EFENSE.

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I S THER THERE E EVI EVI DENC ENCE?

MS. BARVI ARVI R:

I S THER THERE E EVI EVI DENC ENCE THAT THAT THEY' THEY' RE USED FO FOR R

SELF- DEFENSE? EFENSE?  THE  THE COURT: MS. BARVI ARVI R:

THA THAT THEY THEY HAVE BEEN EEN USED SED. WELL , I ' D START START FI RST AND FO FOR REMOST WI TH

 THE  THE STATE' STATE' S OWN EVI EVI DENC ENCE.

THEI THEI R EXPER EXPERT T WI TN TNES ESS S LUC LUCY ALLEN LL EN HAS

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FOUND AT LEAST LE AST TWO I N HER STUDI ES.

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DO KN KNO OW THAT THI S DOES HAPP HAPPEN EN..

SO WHI L E I T MAY BE BE RARE, RARE, WE

I THI NK YOU YOUR HONOR TALKED TAL KED ABOUT

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 THE  THE STORY OF MRS. SUSA SUSAN N GONZALEZ AND HER HUSBA SBAND MI KE AND THE THE

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MPI RUL RUL I NG WHO HAD THREE THREE ASSAI L ANTS ANTS COM COME ON ON THEM I N THE NI NI GHT

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AND AND SHE RAN OUT OF AMMUNI TI ON.

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 THE  THE COURT:

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CAN YO YOU U I MAGI NE WHAT MUST HAVE BEEN EEN GOI NG

 THR  THROUGH HER MI ND WHEN SHE SHE PULL PULLED ED THE THE TRI TRI GGER THE THE LAST LAST TI ME

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10: 18: 19

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KNOW KNO WI NG THERE WERE NO MORE RO ROUN UNDS DS I N HE HER WEAPO APON?

2 3

MS. BARV BARVII R: DI E.

I ' M SURE SURE SHE SHE THO THOUGHT SHE SHE WAS GOI NG TO

THE THE ASSA SSAI LANTS LANTS WERE ERE STI LL THER THERE. E.

4

 THE  THE COURT:

BUT THA THAT' S OKAY KAY BECA ECAUSE AFTER SHE SHE WAS

5

KI L L ED L AW ENFORCEM ENFORCEMENT WOUL D COME I N AND AND SAY, SAY, OH, WE GO GOT

6

ANOTHER THER STATI STATI STI C; WE' VE GOT SOM SOMEON EONE THAT' THAT' S BEEN BEEN KI L L ED. ED.

7

 THA  THAT' S SO SAD SAD.

8 9

BUT LET' S MOVE ON TO THE THE NEXT EXT CASE.

MS. BARV BARVII R:

AND AND I F SHE SHE WAS L I MI TED TO 10 RO ROUNDS BY BY A

L AW L I KE I N CALI FO FOR RNI A, THAT THAT WOUL D DEFI NI TELY TEL Y BE BE A CASE WHERE ERE

10

WE DO DON' T HAVE AN EXAMPL E OF OF MORE TH THAN 10 ROUNDS BEI NG FI RED, RED,

11

AND I T WASN ASN' T AN AN EFFEC EFF ECTI TI VE USE OF SELFSELF - DEFENSE. EFENSE.

SO THE THE STO STOR RI ES

12

 THA  THAT THE THE STATE STATE HAS COMPI LED OR LOO LOOKED KED AT AND, YO YOU U KNOW, SOME OF

13

 THE  THE EXA EXAMPLES THA THAT WE' VE GI VEN, EN, ARE EXA EXAMPLES OF EFFECTI EFFECTI VE

14 10: 19: 04 15 16 17

SELFSELF - DEFENSE. EFENSE.

USUALL SUALLY, Y, I T' S FEWER ROUNDS.

BUT WHEN YO YOU U' RE

L I MI TED TO L ESS THAN THAN 10 ROUNDS, THAT' THAT' S NEC NECESSAR ESSARII L Y GO GOI NG TO BE  THE  THE CASE. SE. I ALSO WANT ANT TO T O SAY A LI L I TTLE TTL E BI T ABOUT TH T HI S FO F OCUS ON ON

18

WHETHER OR NO NOT TH THE PL AI NTI FFS NEED NEED TO ESTABLI ESTABLI SH THAT THAT THERE THERE ARE, ARE,

19

I DON' T KN KNO OW, THERE' S SO SOME I MAGI AGI NARY THRESHO THRESHOL D OF A NU NUMBER OF

20

CASES CASES WHERE PEOPLE EOPL E HAVE NEE NEED DED TO AND AND ACTUALL ACTUAL L Y FI F I RED MORE TH THAN

21

10 ROUNDS I N SELFSEL F- DEFENSE.

22

DOESN' ESN' T TALK ABO ABOUT A NEED TO EXERC EXERCI SE THE THE RI RI GHT.

23

KNO KN OW OF ANY ANY CONSTI STI TUTI ONAL RI GHT CONTEXT TEXT WHERE TH T HAT WOUL D BE

24

APPRO APPROPRI ATE I N ANY EVEN EVENT. T.

25

THAT' THAT' S NOT THE THE STAND STANDARD ARD.

HELL EL L ER

AND AND I DON' T

THE THE L AW DEPEND EPENDS - - EXC EXCUSE ME,

 THER  THERE' E' S NO SUPPO SUPPOR RT I N HELLER. ELLER.

THER THERE' E' S NO SUPPO SUPPOR RT I N ANY OF THE THE

10

10: 19: 46

1

OTHER CASES THAT I ' M AWARE OF OF THAT WOUL D SUGGEST EST YOU NEED EED TO

2

HAVE SO SOME NUMBER OF CASES CASES WHERE 11 11 OR MORE ROUND ROUNDS ARE FI RED.

3

WHAT I S THE THE STAND STANDARD ARD I S, ARE ARE THEY THEY TYPI T YPI CALLY ALL Y PO P OSSESSED FO FOR R THESE THESE

4

L AWFUL PURPO PURPOSES SES BY BY LAW- ABI ABI DI NG CI TI ZENS? ZENS?

5

PEOPL PEOPLE E POSSESS POSSESS THESE THESE - -

6

 THE  THE COURT:

7

MS. BARV BARVII R:

SO THE THE REASO REASON N THAT THAT

WHAT' S THE THE EVI EVI DENC ENCE THA THAT THEY THEY DON' T? THAT THAT THEY THEY DON' T POSSESS POSSESS THEM THEM FO FOR R L AWFUL

8

PUR PURPOSES? POSES?

9

I S THAT THAT THEY' THEY' RE NOT REGUL ARL ARL Y FI F I RED MORE THAN THAN 10 TI MES.

10

I DON' T THI THI NK THER THERE E ARE ARE ANY.

 THE  THE COURT:

11

MS. BARV BARVII R:

THE THE CL AI M BY THE THE STATE

THA THANK GOODNESS. ESS. NOT THAT THAT PEOPL PEOPLE E DON' T KEEP THEM THEM FO FOR R THAT THAT

12

PURPO PURPOSE; SE; WHEREAS PLAI PL AI NTI FFS HAV HAVE E SHOWN I N THE THE DECLARA DECLARATI TI ONS OF OF

13

EACH EACH OF THE THE PL P L AI NTI FFS WHY TH T HEY' VE CHO CHOSEN - - WHETHER OR NO NOT

14

 THEY'  THEY' RE RI GHT I N THEI THEI R BELI EF THA THAT THEY THEY MAY NEED EED THA THAT NUMBER OF

10: 20: 28 15

ROUNDS SO SOMEDAY EDAY TO FI GHT OFF AN ATTACKER, ATT ACKER, THAT' S WHY THEY CHO CHOOSE

16 17 18 19

 THEM  THEM.  THE  THE COURT:

SO REFRES EFRESH H MY RECO ECOLLEC LL ECTI TI ON.

SO WHY MI GHT

 THEY  THEY NEED EED, SAY, SAY, 11 ROUNDS AS OPPOSE PPOSED D TO 10 ROUNDS? MS. BARV BARVII R:

SOM SOME OF THE THE PLAI PL AI NTI FF FFS S HAVE AVE TALKED ABO ABOUT

20

WANTI ANTI NG TO KEEP OR KEEPI KEEP I NG A MAGAZI AGAZI NE OVER OVER 10 ROUNDS I N THERE

21

HOME BECAU BECAUSE OF THE THE PO P OTENTI AL I F MUL TI PLE PL E ATTAC ATT ACKERS KERS WERE TO

22

COME UPON UPON THEM AND AND THEI R FAMI L Y I N THE HO HOME TH THEY WI L L NOT HAVE HAVE

23

ENOUGH ROUNDS TO TO EFF EF FECTI VELY VEL Y NEUTRALI NEUTRALI ZE TH THE TH THREAT OF OF SO MANY ANY

24

ASSA ASSAII L ANTS.

25

GOOD SHOT I F YOU HAVE FO F OUR PEO PEOP PL E COM COMI NG I N YOU YOUR HO HOME AT NI GHT

I F YOU YOU THI THI NK ABO ABOUT I T, YO YOU U' D HAVE AVE TO BE A PRETTY

11

10: 21: 10

1 2 3 4

I F YO YOU U' RE LI MI TED TO 10 RO ROUNDS.

YOU YO U' RE AW AWAKEN AKENED ED,, STARTL STARTLED ED I N

 THE  THE MI DDLE OF THE THE NI GHT, STRA STRAGGLI NG FO FOR R A FI REAR EARM THA THAT I S L I MI TED TO 10 ROUNDS, AND AND THEN THEN YO YOU U SHO SHOOT OFF OFF THREE, THREE, HI T ON ONE; I F  THES  THESE E ASSA SSAI LANTS LANTS ARE UNDER SOME SORT OF I NFLU FL UENC ENCE OR SOMETHI ETHI NG

5

L I KE THAT, THAT, THEY THEY MAY NOT EVEN EVEN FEEL FEE L I T.

6

GOOD SHOT TO TAKE SOMEONE EONE DOWN WI TH ONE BULL BULL ET. ET .

7 8 9

 THE  THE COURT:

YOU YO U HAVE AVE TO BE A REAL REAL L Y

THE THE STATE STATE MAKES KES THE THE ARGUMENT ENT THA THAT, WELL,

 YOU  YOU KNOW, THER THERE' E' S AN EXC EXCEPTI ON I N THI THI S LAW FO FOR R LAW ENFO ENFOR RCEMENT ENT BECAU BECAUSE SE LAW L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT I S TRAI TRAI NED TO USE THESE THESE WEAPON EAPONS.

L AW

10

ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT ALSO ALSO I S TRAI T RAI NED TO HO HOPEF PEFUL L Y HI T WHAT TH T HEY SHO SHOOT

11

AT, RI GHT?

12

STRESSFU STRESSF UL CONDI TI ONS.

13

MS. BARVI ARVI R:

14 10: 22: 08 15

AND AND THEY' THEY' RE ALSO ALSO TRAI NED TO SHO SHOOT AT TARG TARGETS UND UNDER

 THE  THE COURT:

DO YO YOU U AGREE AGREE WI TH THAT? THAT? I AGREE WI TH THAT, THAT, YO YOU UR HONOR, YES. BUT THE THE AVERA ERAGE HOMEOWNER I S NOT.

THE THE

AVERA AVERAG GE HO HOMEOW EOWNER I S SLEEP SL EEPII NG, HEARS EARS A NO NOI SE, WAKES UP, UP, SEES OR

16

HEARS EARS SOM SOMEON EONE OR OR SOME PEO PEOPLE, PL E, AND AND THEN THEN STARTS FI F I RI NG, RI GHT,

17

PERHAPS?

18

MS. BAR BARVI R:

PERH PERHAPS.

HOPEFULL PEFULL Y, THEY' THEY' VE BEEN

19

 TRA  TRAI NED, AND I THI THI NK MOST RESPO ESPON NSI BLE GUN OWNERS ERS ARE TRA TRAI NED I N

20

 THE  THE USE OF FI REAR EARMS.

BUT THEY' THEY' RE NOT AS EXPER EXPERII ENC ENCED AS LAW

21

ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT ARE I N THE SUDDEN STRESS AND AND THE PHYSI OL OGI CAL CAL

22

I MPACTS TH T HAT CREATES ON ON SOM SOMEON EONE' S BODY.

23 24 25

 THE  THE COURT:

SO AS I WAS READ EADI NG THI THI S, I T DAWNED ON ME

 THA  THAT THE THE PERSO PERSON WHO ACTUA TUALLY LL Y NEEDS THE THE LARG LARGER CAPAC PACI TY MAGAZI AZI NES FO F OR SELFSELF - DEFENSE I S THE THE CI CI VI L I AN WHO DOESN' ESN' T GET GET TO

12

10: 22: 51

1

GO TO THE FI FI RI NG RANGE, YO YOU U KN KNO OW, THREE THREE TI T I MES A YEAR Y EAR OR OR FOU FOUR

2

 TI MES A YEAR YEAR; WHO DOESN ESN' T GO THR THROUGH THE THE PRO PROGRAMS, FO FOR R EXA EXAMPLE,

3

DOWNSTAI STAI RS AT THE MARSHAL ARSHAL'' S OF OFFI CE WHERE TH THEY HAVE THE VARI VARI OUS

4

SCENARI SCENARI OS YO Y OU GO THROUGH AND AND YOU GET TO I DENTI FY " DO I SHOOT OR

5

NOT SHO SHOOT, " RI GHT?

6

BECAU BECAUSE TH T HEY HAVE MORE TRAI NI NG THAN THAN THE AVERAG AVERAGE CI VI L I AN WHO

7

I S AT HO HOME AND AND DOESN' ESN' T HAVE HAVE THAT THAT CONSTANT STANT KI ND OF TRAI NI NG.

8

DOES THAT MAKE SEN SENSE TO YOU?

9

SO L AW ENFORCEM ENFORCEMENT NEED EEDS FEW FEWER ROUNDS

MS. BARV BARVII R:

I T MAKES SENSE SENSE TO ME.

YOU YO U WOUL D THI THI NK

10

 THA  THAT WOULD BE TRU TRUE, BUT WE SEE SEE PLENTY PLENTY OF STORI ES I N THE THE MEDI A

11

 THES  THESE E DAYS WHERE ERE THA THAT' S NOT THE THE CASE FO FOR R POLI POLI CE OFFI CERS. ERS.

12

 THE  THE COURT:

I UNDERSTA ERSTAN ND, FACTU FACTUA ALLY. LL Y.

13

I HEAR EAR YO YOU U.

14

CASES AL AL L THE THE TI ME, AND AND THEY THEY DO DO THE THE BEST THEY THEY CAN CAN, BUT BUT I

10: 23: 53 15 16

QUI TE OFTEN - - BELI EVE EVE ME, I SEE SEE THE THE

OFTEN TENTI MES WONDER, MAYBE WHAT TH T HEY REALL REAL L Y NEED I S HOWI TZERS TZERS OR OR L PG' PG' S OR OR WHATEVER I N ORDER TO HI T WHAT THEY' RE SHO SHOOTI NG AT.

17 18

I HEAR EAR YO YOU U.

I UNDERSTA ERSTAN ND.

MS. BARV BARVII R:

I ' D L I KE TO SAY ONE THI THI NG THO THOUGH ABO ABOUT

 THE  THE STATE' STATE' S CONCERN ERN TO WHAT YO YOU UR HONOR I S SAYI SAYI NG ABOUT PEOPLE

19

WHO ARE NO NOT AS - - YO YOU U DON' T HAVE TO FI RE THEI R WEAPON EAPON AS AS OF OFTEN TEN

20

AS A POL POL I CE OFFI CER MI GHT, FOR I NSTAN STANCE. CE.

21

MI GHT HAV HAVE E TO SHO SHOOT I N SELF SEL F- DEFEN EF ENSE. SE.

SO A HOMEOW EOWNER WHO

SO THE THE STATE I S CO CONCERN CERNED

22

 THA  THAT THES THESE E I NDI VI DUALS, THEY THEY ARE COMPLAI NI NG THA THAT THEY THEY NEED EED ALL

23

 THES  THESE E BULLETS LL ETS,, AND THEY' THEY' RE GOI NG TO SPRA SPRAY FI RE AND THEY' THEY' RE

24

GOI NG TO HAVE ALL THESE THESE STRAY STRAY BUL BUL L ETS FI RI NG ARO AROUND AND AND FAMI L Y

25

MEMBERS - -

13

10: 24: 36

1

 THE  THE COURT:

2 3 4 5 6

HOW MANY TI MES HAS THA THAT HAPPENED PPENED?

MS. BARV BARVII R: HONOR.

THAT' THAT' S WHAT I WAS GOI NG TO SAY, YO YOU UR

THEY THEY DO DON' T HAV HAVE E EVI DENCE ENCE OF THAT THAT HAPPE HAPPEN NI NG; ALTH ALTHO OUGH,

 THEY  THEY CLAI M I T MI GHT.

SO I WANT TO MAKE THA THAT POI POI NT VERY ERY

CLEAR LEAR.  THE  THE COURT:

SO THE THE CASE OF SELF SELF-- DEFENSE, EFENSE, WHEN I T

7

HASN ASN' T HAPPEN HAPPENED ED,, THE THE STATE STATE SAYS, SAYS, " SEE, YO YOU U DON' T NEED NEED I T

8

BECAU BECAUSE I T HASN' HASN' T HAPP HAPPEN ENED ED,, " AND AND THEN WHEN THE I SSUE COMES UP

9

ABO ABOUT SPRA SP RAYI YI NG OF BUL BUL L ETS, THAT THAT HASN HASN'' T HAPP HAPPEN ENED ED,, BUT BUT TH T HE STATE

10 11

SAYS, " TAKE OUR WORD FO FOR R I T; THI THI S HAS HAS OR WI L L HAPPEN. APPEN. " MS. BARVI ARVI R:

CORREC RECT.

AND ALSO, ALSO, I THI THI NK THAT THAT L EAD EADS

12

US ALSO AL SO TO CRI CRI MI NAL USE WHI CH I S A MAJ OR CO CONCERN AND AND POI NT OF OF

13

CONTENTI TENTI ON OF TH T HE STATE I N I TS BRI BRI EFI NG WHI CH I S TO SUG SUGGEST

14 10: 25: 22 15 16 17

 THA  THAT CRI MI NALS USE THES THESE E AT DI SPRO SPROPOR PORTI ONATE RATES. TES.

I THI THI NK

 THEY  THEY SPOKE SPEC SPECI FI CALLY LL Y AT SOME POI POI NTS ON VI OLENC LENCE AGAI NST LAW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT OFFI CERS AND AND OBVI OUSLY SL Y THE MASS SH SHOOTI NG EVENTS -  THE  THE COURT:

I NOTED THA THAT I N A COUPLE OF I NCI DENTS ENTS THE THE

18

STATE STATE MENTI ONS, THE WEAPO EAPONS THAT WERE ACTUAL ACTUAL L Y USED SED WERE

19

MACH ACHI NE GUNS.

20

FOR EXAMPLE, PL E, I THI NK THE THE BI BI G BAN BANK ROBBERY BBERY CASE CASE

 THA  THAT ONE OF THE THE STATE' STATE' S EXPER EXPERTS TS RELI ED ON, THE THE WEAPO EAPON NS THA THAT

21

WERE BEI NG USED WERE AUTOM AUTOMATI ATI C WEAPO EAP ONS WHI CH I THI NK HAD BEEN BEEN

22

BANNED FOR A LO L ONG TI ME.

23 24 25

MS. BARVI R:

EFFECTI VELY BANNED SI NCE THE THE ' 80S. 80S.

AND

 THEN  THEN,, OF COURSE, SE, WHEN YO YOU U TALK TALK ABOUT LAS VEGAS WHI CH I S DEFI NI TELY TELY AN AN OUTLI ER. ER.

14

10: 26: 05

1

 THE  THE COURT:

I DON' T KNOW ANYTHI YTHI NG ABOUT LAS VEGAS.

2

WE KNO KNOW NOTHI NG ABOUT LAS L AS VEG VEGAS. AS.

3

RECORDS ON ON WHAT ACTUALL ACTUALLY Y HAPP HAPPEN ENED ED I N L AS VEGAS, VEGAS, I ' D L OVE TO SEE

4

I T BECAU BECAUSE SE ALL AL L I READ READ I S BASI BASI CALLY ALL Y HEAR HEARSAY SAY UPO UPON N HEARSAY EARSAY UPO UPON N

5

HEARSAY, AND AND I READ THAT THAT MAYBE TH THI S GU GUY HAD 42 WEAPON EAPONS.

6

MS. BARV BARVII R:

AND AND I F TH THE STATE STATE HAS HAS ANY

THEY THEY WERE MADE TO FI RE AUTO AUTOM MATI CAL CAL L Y

7

WI TH A - - WI TH WHAT WAS CALL CALL ED A BUM BUMP STO STOCK CK,, AT LEAST L EAST TH T HAT' S

8

WHAT' S BEI BEI NG REPORTED REPORTED,, YES.

9

CRII MI NAL USE GEN CR GENERAL ERALL L Y, THE STATE WANTS ANTS TO T O SUGGEST THAT THESE THESE

10

BUT BUT WHEN YO YOU U' RE TALKI TAL KI NG ABO ABOUT

 TYPES OF MAGAZI NES ARE NOT PRO PROTECTED TECTED OR THEY' THEY' RE PAR PARTI CULARLY LARLY OR

11

UNI QUELY EL Y DANG ANGEROUS BECAU BECAUSE TH T HEY' RE SO OFTEN USED USED I N CR CRII MES.

12

BUT AG AGAI N, THE THE USE USE I N CRI ME I S J UST AS - - I T' S J UST AS SI SI MI LAR LAR

13 14 10: 27: 01 15

 TO USE I N SELF- DEFENSE EFENSE..

I T' S LI KE - - THEY' THEY' RE NOT SHO SHOOTI NG THEM THEM

MORE THAN THAN 10 ROUNDS NECESSAR NECESSARII L Y.

I THI THI NK THE THE AVER AVERAG AGE I S ABO ABOUT

 TWO J UST LI KE AN I NDI VI DUAL USI NG I T I N SELF SELF-- DEFENSE EFENSE..

THE THE

16

STATE STATE WANTS TO HAVE I TS CA CAKE, KE, RI GHT, SAYI SAYI NG I T' S CR CRI MI NAL USE

17

 J UST BECA ECAUSE THES THESE E FI REAR EARMS, THESE THESE MAGAZI NES ARE SHO SHOWI NG UP AT

18

CRI ME SCEN SCENES; ES; BUT I T' S NO NOT SELFSEL F- DEFENSE EFENSE USE USE I F YO YOU U DON' T SHO SHOOT

19

I T MORE THAN THAN 10 TI MES.

20

L I KE THE THE COURT TO CONSI DER AS AS WELL EL L .

21

 THE  THE COURT:

SO I THI THI NK THA THAT' S AN I SSUE SSUE THAT THAT I ' D

STATI STATI STI CALLY, LL Y, STATI STATI STI CALL Y, OUT OF ALL

22

 THE  THE GUN CRI MES COMMI TTED I N THE THE STATE STATE OF CALI FO FOR RNI A - - LET' S

23

 J UST SAY SAY THE THE LAST LAST 10 YEAR YEARS - - HOW MANY OF THO THOSE HAVE I NVOLVED LVED

24 25

L ARG ARGE CAPAC CAPACII TY MAGAZI AZI NES AS THEY' THEY' RE CURR CURREN ENTL TLY Y DEF DEFII NED? ED? MS. BARVI R:

I ' M NOT ENTI ENTI RELY SUR SURE. I CAN' T REMEMBER

15

10: 27: 49

1

OFF THE TOP TOP OF MY HEAD. EAD.

2

 THE  THE COURT:

3

ANSW ANSWER TH THAT QUESTI EST I ON.

4

MS. BARVI R:

5

 THE  THE COURT:

I EXPEC EXPECT T THE THE STATE STATE WOULD BE ABLE TO

I HOPE SO. THEY' THEY' LL HAVE THE THE ANSWER FO FOR R ME AS TO HOW

6

MANY ANY GU GUN VI OL ENC ENCE CRI CRI MES THERE THERE HAV HAVE E BEEN AND AND STATI STI CAL CAL L Y - -

7

AND AND BY TH THE WAY, J UST SO EVERYBOD EVERYBODY UND UNDERSTANDS, ANY ANY SH SHOOTI NG,

8

ANY SHO SHOOTI NG I S TRA TRAGI C.

9

DRI VI NG DEATH I S TRAGI TRAGI C.

10

RI GHT?

J UST LI KE ANY DRUNK

WE HAVE TO ACKN ACKNO OWL EDG EDGE

 THA  THAT.

11

MS. BARVI R:

12 13

I T' S TRA TRAGI C.

 THE  THE COURT:

YES. YES. WE WOULD HOPE I T WOULD NEVER EVER HAPPEN. PPEN.

BUT

 THA  THAT' S NOT THE THE WAY THE THE REAL EAL WORLD WORKS. KS.

14

MS. BA BARVI R:

10: 28: 26 15

 THE  THE COURT:

CORRECT. ECT. SO NOW I HOPE THE THE STATE STATE HAS THE THE

16

STATI STI CS FOR FOR ME AS TO HOW MANY ANY GU GUN VI OL ENCE ENCE I NSTANCES STANCES THERE THERE

17

HAVE BEEN I N THE LAST L AST 10 YEARS YEARS AND AND HOW MANY ANY OF TH THOSE HAVE BEEN

18

COMMI TTED WI TH A WEAPO EAP ON THAT HAD A LARG L ARGE E CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NE AND

19

HOW MANY ANY HAVE BEEN CO COMMI TTED TT ED SI NCE THE SALE SAL E AND TRANSFER TRANSFER OF OF

20

L ARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES WERE BANN BANNED EXCEPT FOR THE GRAN GRAND DFATHER

21

CLAUSE LAUSE..

22 23 24 25

SO - MS. BARVI R:

I ' D LI KE TO DI RECT ECT TH THE COURT' S ATTENTI ON

 TO THE THE EXH EXHI BI T ATTAC TTACHED TO THE THE BARVI R DECLAR ECLARA ATI ON, MY DECL ECL ARATI ARATI ON, PROVI DED BY PROFESSO FESS OR MOODY.

THAT THAT KI ND OF, I

 THI  THI NK, SPEA SPEAKS TO WHAT THE THE STATE STATE - - WHAT THE THE COURT I S LOO LOOKI NG

16

10: 29: 09

1

FOR HERE.

2

I NCI DENTS ENTS - - YO YOU U KN KNO OW, WHAT TO TOTAL GUN DEATHS THERE THERE ARE, HOW

3

MANY ANY GUN CR CRII MES TH T HERE ARE ARE AND AND SPECI SPECI FI CAL CAL L Y HOW MANY ANY I NVOL VE

4

MAGAZI AGAZI NES OVER VER 10 10 RO ROUN UND DS, BUT WHAT PRO P ROF FESSOR ESSOR MOODY' S WORK SHO SHOWS

5

I S THA THAT THER THERE E HA HASN' SN' T BEEN BEEN A STA STATI TI STI CALL Y SI GNI FI CANT I MPACT PACT O ON N

6

ANY ANY SORTS SORTS OF OF CRI ME, GUN VI OL ENCE ENCE GENERAL ENERALL L Y, MURDERS OF OF L AW

7

ENFO ENFOR RCEMENT, ENT, MASS ASS SHO SHOOTI NGS, MORE SPECI SPECI FI CALLY ALL Y I N CALI FO FOR RNI A.

8

SO THE FED FEDERAL ERAL BAN WHI CH WE SPEAK SP EAK ABOUT - - BOTH SI DES SPEAK SPEAK

9

ABO ABOUT A LO L OT I N THE THE EVI DENC ENCE AND AND THE THE BRI BRI EFI NG - - THE THE FED F EDERA ERAL L BAN BAN

10

PAI RED WI TH CALI FO FOR RNI A' S SI NCE 2000 ACQ ACQUI SI TI ON BAN HAS NO NOT HAD HAD

11

A STATI STATI STI CALL Y SI GNI FI CANT I MPACT PACT ON GUN VI OLENC LENCE.

12

WHI L E I DON' T HAVE HAVE RAW NUMBERS OF TH THE NU NUMBER OF

 THE  THE STATE STATE OBJ ECTS ECTS TO A LOT LOT OF THA THAT CONTENT. TENT.

13

 TO SAY SAY ONE THI THI NG ABOUT THA THAT.

14

REBU REBUTTAL TTAL WI TN TNESS ESS TESTI MONY.

10: 30: 02 15

I ' D LI KE

THE THE STATE STATE CLAI MS I T' S NOT THE THE STATE CL CL AI MS THAT THAT KO KOPE PER R AND AND

KLAREVU KLAREVUS AND AND ALLEN ALL EN,, THEI THEI R EXPERTS, EXPERTS, ARE ARE NO NOT SAYI NG THI THI NGS ABO ABOUT

16

GUN VI OL ENC ENCE I N CALI FO FOR RNI A AN AND MASS ASS SHO SHOOTI NGS I N CALI FO FOR RNI A,

17

BUT BUT WHAT THEY ARE ARE EXPLI EXPL I CI TLY TL Y OPI OPI NI NG ON, WHAT THO THOSE EXPERTS EXPERTS ARE ARE

18

STATI NG I S THAT THAT THEY THEY BELI EVE EVE THAT THAT CAPA CAPAC CI TY- BASED ASED MAGAZI AZI NE

19

RESTRI CTI ONS COUL D HAVE AVE SOM SOME I MPACT, COUL D HELP EL P ALL AL L EVI ATE MASS

20

SHO SHOOTI NGS, COUL D BRI BRI NG DOWN DEATH TO TOL L L S, THI THI NGS LI L I KE THAT. THAT.

21

PROFESSOR FESSOR MOODY I S PROVI DI NG HI S STATI STI CAL ANALYSI ANALYSI S THAT THAT

22

SHO SHOWS THAT THAT THAT' THAT' S NO NOT TRUE. TRUE.

23

L OOK AT THAT. THAT.

24 25

 THE  THE COURT:

SO I ' D L I KE THE THE CO COURT TO TAKE A

CONCEPTUA EPTUALLY, LL Y, I T' S TRU TRUE.

LOO LOOK,

CONCEPTUAL EPTUAL L Y - -

17

10: 30: 40

1

MS. BARVI R:

2

 THE  THE COURT:

CONCEPTUA EPTUALLY, LL Y, ANYTHI YTHI NG I S POSS POSSII BLE. AND I READ EAD THES THESE E THI THI NGS, AND I T' S ALMOST

3

LI KE THEY THEY CUT AND PAST PASTE E FR FRO OM EAC EACH OTHER THER..

I T' S LI KE - - I T' S

4

KI ND OF L I KE PLAYI PL AYI NG THE THE GAM GAME WE PLAYED PL AYED AS KI KI DS, TELEPH TEL EPHO ONE, YO YOU U

5

KNO KN OW, AND AND THEY J UST KEEP REPEATI REPEATI NG THE SAME TH T HI NG OVER AND AND

6

OVER. VER.

7

30 RO ROUNDS THAT THAT I T CAR CARR RI ES WI TH I T THE THE POTEN POTENTI TI AL OF OF KI L L I NG 30

8

PEOPL PEOPLE, E, AND AND I F A WEAPON EAPON HAS 10 ROU ROUNDS I T HAS HAS TH THE PO P OTENTI AL OF

9

KI L L I NG 10 PEOPLE. PL E.

I DON' T N NEED EED AN EXPERT TO TELL TEL L ME THAT THAT I F A WEAPON EAPON HAS

YOU YO U DON' T HAV HAVE E TO BE A ROCKET SCI SCI ENTI ENTI ST TO

10

FI GURE THAT THAT OU OUT, OF CO COU URSE.

11

ONE ROUND, RI GHT, I T HAS HAS THE THE POTEN POTENTI TI AL FO F OR KI KI L L I NG ONE PERSON.

12

RI GHT?

13 14

MS. BARV BARVII R:

AND AND I F YO Y OU HAVE A GUN THAT HO HOL DS

CORREC RRECT. T.

BUT BUT WHAT COMES FROM FROM THAT THAT I S,

AS HAS BEEN BEEN SHO SHOWN WI TH MOST MASS ASS SHOO SHOOTI NGS WHERE THERE ARE

10: 31: 38 15

L ARGER DEAT DEATH H COUNTS AND AND MORE MEDI A ATTENTI ATTENTI ON, THESE PEO P EOP PL E TH THAT

16

ARE COMMI TTI TT I NG THESE HEI NOUS ACTS ARE NO NOT DOI NG I T WI TH ON ONE GUN GUN

17

WI TH SI X ROUNDS OR 10 ROUNDS OR 30 ROUNDS.

18

WI TH MUL TI PL E FI REARM REARMS AN AND/ OR MUL TI PLE PL E MAGAZI AZI NES.

19

HAVE AVE TO L OOK AT I S:

20

ROUNDS PER PER MAGAZI AGAZI NE I MPACT MASS SH SHOOTI NGS AND AND VI OL ENCE ENCE AGAI AGAI NST

21

L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT TO SUCH SUCH AN EXTEN EXTENT BECAU BECAUSE OF HOW L ONG I T TAKES

22

THEY' RE DOI NG I T SO WHAT YO YOU U

CAN RESTRI ESTRI CTI NG L AW- ABI ABI DI NG CI TI ZENS TO 10

 TO CHANGE A MAGAZI NE OR J UST PI CK UP A NEW FI REAR EARM?

THA THAT' S

23

KI ND OF THE I SSUE. SSUE.

YES, I F YOU YOU HAVE AVE ONE GU GUN WI TH 30 RO ROUNDS I N

24

I T, YO YOU U CO COUL D POTE POTEN NTI ALL ALL Y HI T MORE THAN ONE GU GUN WI TH 10 ROU ROUNDS

25

I N I T, BUT BUT TH T HAT' S NO NOT HO HOW THESE THESE EVENTS EVENTS WORK OUT I N THE THE REAL REAL

18

10: 32: 19

1

WORLD, RLD, AND AND I THI THI NK THE THE EVI DENC ENCE LAYS L AYS THAT THAT OU OUT.

2 3

 THE  THE COURT: SHOO SHOOTI NG.

4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 10: 32: 47 15 16 17

WHAT WEAP EAPON WAS USE USED D I N THAT SHOO SHOOTI NG? MS. BARVI ARVI R:

HEAD EAD.

LET ME ASK YO YOU U ABOUT THE THE SAN SAN BERN ERNARDI NO

I DO, BUT I DON' T OFF THE THE TOP OF MY

I ' M SORRY, YOU YOUR HONOR.  THE  THE COURT:

DOES THE THE STATE STATE KNOW?

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

I T' S MY UNDERSTAND ERSTANDI NG THAT THAT THEY THEY WERE

AR PLATFOR PLATFORM MODELS.  THE  THE COURT:

WHAT CAPAC PACI TY MAGAZI NE?

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

I BELI EVE THEY THEY WERE 30 ROUND

MAGAZI AGAZI NES, YO YOU UR HO HONOR.  THE  THE COURT:

WHERE ERE DI D THEY THEY GET THEM THEM?

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:  THE  THE COURT:

DI D THEY THEY BUY THEM THEM HERE ERE I N CALI FO FOR RNI A?

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

I DO NOT KN KNO OW.

UNLI KELY. KELY.

SO THEY THEY BROUGHT THEM THEM FR FRO OM OUT OF STATE? STATE?

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

I DON' T KN KNO OW FO FOR R SURE, SURE, YO YOU UR HONOR,

18

BUT THA THAT' S A FAI R ASSU ASSUM MPTI ON.

19

 THE  THE COURT:

20 21 22 23

DO YOU KNOW?

OKAY. KAY.

ALL RI GHT.

GREAT. EAT.

THA THANKS. KS.

I

APPRECI APPRECI ATE YOU YOUR CAN CAND DI DNESS. MS. BARVI R:

I BELI EVE EVE DR. KLECK KLECK TALKS TALKS AB ABOUT THAT

I NSTANC STANCE I N HI S EXPERT EXPERT REPORT, REPORT, YO YOU UR HONOR.  THE  THE COURT:

AS I SAI SAI D, I READ EAD ALL THI THI S, AND I WI SH I

24

COULD REMEMBER I T ALL , BUT I CAN' T.

I J UST CAN' T.

SO OUR

25

RECOL L ECTI ON I S THE SAN BERNARD BERNARDI NO MASS SHO SHOOTI NG WHI CH I S THE

19

10: 33: 15

1

ONE I N CALI FO FOR RNI A WHI CH BASI CALL Y I S, I BELI EVE, EVE, THE THE LAST LAST THA THAT

2

WE HAD HAD WAS BY SO SOMEON EONE - - AND AND THAT WAS A TERRO TERRORI ST CASE, AS I

3

RECALL RECALL .

4 5

MS. BARV BARVII R:

THAT' THAT' S WHAT THE THE REPO REPORTS RTS SHO SHOWED, ED, YES,

 YOU  YOUR HONOR.

6 7

I T WAS THE HU HUSBAND SBAND AND AND WI FE WHO WERE - -

 THE  THE COURT:

AND THEY THEY PUR PURCHASED SED THE THE GUNS OUT OF

STA STATE. TE.

8

MS. BARVI ARVI R:

AND THEY THEY DI DN' T HAV HAVE E THEM THEM BEFOR EFORE THE THE

9

2000 LAW WENT ENT I NTO EFF EF FECT.

10

L EGALL EGALLY, Y, YES, YO YOU UR HO HONOR.

11 12

 THE  THE COURT:  THA  THAT' S I N EFFECT. EFFECT.

SO THEY COUL DN' T HAV HAVE E ACQ ACQUI RED THEM THEM

SO REGA EGARDLESS, SO HERE ERE WE HAVE A LAW

AND THE THE LAW SAYS SAYS YO YOU U CAN' T BUY, TRA TRANSFER, SFER,

13

POSSE POSSESS SS UN UNL ESS YO YOU OWNED I T BEFO BEFORE A CERTAI N DATE.

14

PEOP EOPL E WHO WANTE ANTED D TO KI L L PEOP EOPL E, GOT TH T HEI R HAN HAND DS ON ON THESE ESE GU GUNS

10: 34: 06 15 16

AND AND NOT WI THSTAN ST AND DI NG THE LAW L AW THAT WE HAD, HAD, THEY WENT AHEAD AND AND KI LLED LL ED ALL THES THESE E PEOPLE.

17

MS. BA BARVI R:

18 19

AND AND THESE

 THE  THE COURT:  THER  THERE. E.

20

OKAY. KAY.

GOOD.

MS. BARVI ARVI R:

RI GHT?

CORRECT. ECT. THA THAT' S MY RECO ECOLLEC LL ECTI TI ON OF WHAT I READ EAD I N SO? ONE THI THI NG I WANTED TO SAY SAY - - WE' RE

21

 TALKI  TALKI NG A BI T ABOUT THE THE STATE, STATE, WHETHER ETHER OR NOT I T CAN ESTA ESTABLI SH

22

 THA  THAT THE THE LAW I S LI KELY KELY TO HAVE SOME TYPE OF MATERI TERI AL EFFECT, EFFECT,

23 24 25

RI GHT?

AND AND THAT MI GHT BE HARD HARD F OR THE CO COURT TO GRAPPL RAPP L E WI TH AT

 THI  THI S MSJ STAG STAGE.

THER THERE' E' S THE THE STATE STATE SAYI SAYI NG, WELL, SUR SURE, I T COULD

POTEN POTENTI TI ALLY ALL Y I MPACT PACT THI THI S TYPE OF OF VI OL ENT ENT CR CRI ME AN AND THE THE - -

20

10: 34: 45

1

 THE  THE COURT:

2

HOW WOULD A TRI TRI AL - - HOW WOULD A TRI TRI AL - -

MS. BARV BARVII R:

3

 THE  THE COURT:

4

DO ANYT ANYTH HI NG MORE? - - YES, YES, DO ANYTHI YTHI NG MORE?

MS. BARVI ARVI R:

I THI THI NK THAT' THAT' S A GOOD QUESTI ON.

WE

5

COUL D POTENTI POTENTI ALL Y SEE THE THE - - THE THE COURT CO COUL D SEE TH THE EXPERTS

6

AND AND WHO I S POTENTI ALL AL L Y MORE AWARE.

7 8

 THE  THE COURT.

 THE  THE COURT:

13 14 10: 35: 28 15

SO I DON' T KNOW THA THAT

I READ EAD THE THE EXC EXCERPTS ERPTS OF DEPOSI TI ONS THA THAT

WERE FI L ED, ED, BY THE THE WAY.

11 12

WE' VE DONE I T I N DEPOSI TI ONS.

COUL CO ULD D DO A WHOL E L OT MORE FOR YO YOU.

9 10

WE COUL D PL AY I T OU OUT FO FOR

MS. BARV BARVII R:

BUT BUT EVEN EVEN I F THE THE COURT DI D GRAPP RAPPL L E WI TH

WHETH ETHER OR OR NO NOT WE COU COUL D HAND ANDL E TH T HI S AT MSJ , WHI CH WE BEL BEL I EVE  YOU  YOU CAN BASED ON ON THE THE EVI EVI DENC ENCE THA THAT HAS BEEN EEN PUT PUT FO FOR RTH THA THAT I SN' SN' T LI L I KEL KEL Y TO MATERI TERI ALL Y AFFECT AFFECT THESE THESE TYPES TYPES OF OF GU GUN VI OLENC LENCE, WHAT I T COMES DO DOWN TO I S THERE' THERE' S NO NO FI T HERE. HERE.

THE THE STATE HAS HAS

16

CHOSEN THE THE BRO BROADEST POSSI POSSI BLE MEANS. EANS.

17

NECESSARY ECESSARY F FO OR - - USED FOR SELF SEL F- DEFEN EF ENSE, SE, OWNED FOR SELF SEL F - DEFEN EF ENSE SE

18

AND AND OTHER THER LAW L AWFUL PURPO PURPOSES BY LAW L AW- ABI ABI DI NG CI TI ZENS, ZENS, TAKI NG THEM THEM

19

FROM THEI R HAN HAND DS AND AND THEI R HOMES SO THEY CAN CAN PREVENT CRI CRI MI NAL

20

MI SUSE SUSE..

21

APPROPRI PRI ATE HERE. ERE.

22

WHETHER ETHER OR NOT THE THE FI T I S APPROPRI ATE, AND AND THE THE LEG L EGII SLATU SL ATURE RE I S

23

ENTI ENTI TLED TL ED TO NO DEFERENC EFERENCE ABO ABOUT WHETHER ETHER THE THE FI F I T I S APPROPRI APPROPRI ATE.

24 25

STRI PPI PP I NG MAGAZI AZI NES

HELLER ELL ER TELLS US THA THAT' S I NAPPRO PPROPRI PRI ATE.

THE THE FI T I S NOT

THI THI S I SN' SN' T A QUESTI ON OF EXPER EXPERTS TS FI GHTI NG

 THE  THE COURT HAS THE THE POW POWER TO MAKE THA THAT DECI ECI SI ON.

I T' S A LEGA LEGAL

QUESTI ON.

21

10: 36: 04

1

 THE  THE COURT:

I T' S I NTERES TERESTI TI NG YO YOU U SHO SHOULD MENTI ENTI ON THA THAT

2

BECAU BECAUSE SE I N THE THE KOL KOL BE CASE, CASE, THERE' THERE' S SOM SOMETHI ETHI NG THAT THAT REAL REAL L Y

3

PUZZL PUZZL ED ME.

4

DECI SI ON AS WELL EL L WHI CH, BY THE THE WAY, I KN KNO OW J UDGE YOU YOUNG

5

SOM SOMEWHAT.

6

MASTERMI NDED OR MANAG ANAGED ALL THE THE TOBA TOBACC CCO O CASES, CASES, I F I ' M NOT

7

MI STAKEN, STAKEN, AND AND I THI THI NK HE DI D A WONDERFUL ERFUL J OB I N THAT THAT REGARD ARD.

8

DI SAGREE WI TH HI S OPI NI ON FO FOR R VARI VARI OUS RESPECTS. RESPECTS.

9

AND AND BY THE THE WAY, I THI NK I T WAS I N THE WORMAN

I RESPECT RESPECT HI M HI GHL Y.

HE WAS THE THE FEL L OW WHO

BUT BUT ON ONE OF THE THE

 THI  THI NGS THA THAT HE TALKED TALKED ABOUT AND KOLBE TALKS TALKS ABOUT THA THAT YO YOU U J UST

10

MENTI ENTI ONED - - I N THE THE KO KOLBE CA CASE, AT PAGE 140, 140, I T SAYS, SAYS, QUOTE:

11

I T I S THE THE LEGI LEGI SLATUR SLATURE' S J OB, NOT OU OURS, TO WEI GH CONFLI FL I CTI NG

12

EVI DENCE ENCE AND AND MAKE POL I CY J UDGMENTS, AND AND WE MUST ACCO ACCORD

13

SUBSTAN SUBSTANTI TI AL DEFEREN EF ERENCE CE TO THE THE PREDI PREDI CTI VE J UDGMENTS ENTS OF OF THE

14

L EGI EGI SLATU SL ATURE. RE.

10: 37: 19 15

18

AND AND THAT THAT COMES FROM KOL BE AND AND THEN THEN I T' S REPEATED REPEATED

I N THE THE WORMAN DECI SI ON.

16 17

BUT BUT AS A GO GOOD FRI END END OF MI NE LI L I KES TO TO SAY, THAT THAT ARRO ARROW L EFT EF T THE THE BO BOW A L ONG TI ME AG AGO.  THI  THI NGS.

IT C CAU AUSES SES ME TO THI NK ABOUT SOM SOME

TELL ME WHAT YO YOU U THI THI NK ABOUT I T.

SO BROWN VERSU ERSUS S

19

BOARD ARD OF EDU EDUCATI CATI ON, THE THE LEG L EGII SLATU SL ATURE RE SAT DO DOWN, HEARD EARD EVI DENCE, ENCE,

20

MADE POL POL I CY DEC DECII SI ONS, AND AND THEY THEY SAI D SEPARATE SEPARATE BU BUT EQU EQUAL I S

21

OKAY. KAY.

22

AND AND THANK ANK GOD ALO AL ONG COMES THE SUPRE SUPREM ME COUR COURT T THAT SAYS, SAY S, SORRY, SORRY,

23

 THI  THI S I S PRO PROTECTED TECTED BY THE THE BI LL OF RI GHTS, YO YOU U' RE WRONG, AND WE

24 25

I

THEY THEY MADE A POL POL I CY DECI ECI SI ON AFTER HEARI EARI NG THE THE EVI DENC ENCE,

HAD BROWN.

THANK ANK GOODNESS. ESS.

RI GHT?

ROE VERSUS VERSUS WADE, ADE, THE LEG LEGII SLATUR SL ATURE E MADE ADE A DECI DECI SI ON

22

10: 38: 22

1

CURTAI RTAI L I NG ABO ABORTI ON.

THEY THEY MADE A POL POL I CY DECI ECI SI ON.

ALON ALONG COMES

2

 THE  THE SUPR SUPREM EME COURT AND SAYS, SAYS, WRONG.

NOW I N THE THE ROE VERSU ERSUS S WADE,

3

 THEY  THEY HAD TO FI RST FI ND THER THERE E WAS A RI GHT TO PRI PRI VACY WHI CH - -

4

I ' M NOT DI SAG SAGREEI EEI NG WI TH THE THE RESU ESULT.

5

READ READ THE THE CO CONSTI TUTI TUTI ON.

6

L OOK AT I T EVERY EVERY NO NOW AND AND THEN WHENEVER ENEVER I SEE SOM SOMETH ETHI NG I N THE

7

NEWS.

8

WORD " PRI PRI VACY" I N THER THERE. E.

9

I KEEP A COPY OF OF I T BY BY MY CH CHAI R WHERE I

SO I LOO LOOK AT I T QUI TE OFTEN. FTEN.

 THE  THE WORD " ABORTI ON. "

I ' M J UST SI MPLY SAYI SAYI NG I

I ' VE TRI TRI ED TO FI ND THE THE

I CAN' T FI ND I T.

I CAN' T FI ND I T.

I ' VE TRI TRI ED TO FI ND

SO THE THE SUPR SUPREM EME COURT

10

SAI D:

NOT WI THSTAND THSTANDI NG THE FACT ACT YOU YOU MAY HAVE HAVE MADE ADE CERTAI CERTAI N

11

POLI POLI CY DECI ECI SI ON, I T VI OLATES LATES THE THE CONSTI TUTI TUTI ON.

12

MS. BA BARVI R:

13 14 10: 39: 26 15

 THE  THE COURT:

CORRECT. ECT. RECEN ECENTLY, TLY, AND PERH PERHAPS THE THE STATE STATE CAN

ENL ENL I GHTEN ME ON ON THI THI S, A CASE CASE THAT THAT I KN KNO OW REASO REASON NABL ABL Y WELL EL L , L AWRENCE VERSUS VERSUS TEXA T EXAS, S, RI GHT? THE THE TEXA T EXAS S LEG L EGII SLATU SL ATURE RE SAI D THERE THERE

16

WAS AN ACT ACT PROH PROHI BI TI NG SOD SODOMY.

17

DECI ECI SI ONS.

18

CONSTI TUTI TUTI ON.

19

SURE SURE THE THE STATE STATE REMEMBERS THI S QUI TE WELL EL L .

20

RI GHT?

RI GHT?

THEY THEY MADE POL POL I CY

SUPR SUPREM EME COURT SA SAI D: NO, I T VI VI OLATES THE THE ALON LONG COMES OBERG ERGEFELL, EFELL , PRO PROPOSI POSI TI ON 8.

 THE  THE PEOPLE OF THE THE STATE STATE OF CALI FO FOR RNI A.

NOW I ' M

THERE WAS A VOTE BY

54 OR 56 PERC PERCENT ENT VOTED

21

AND AND SAI D THE DEFI EF I NI TI ON OF A MARRI ARRI AGE I S A MARRI ARRI AGE BETWEEN A

22

MAN AND A WOMAN.

23

SAYS:

24

I S PRO PROTECTED TECTED..

25

RI GHTS. TS.

RI GHT?

ALO AL ONG CO COM MES THE THE SUPREM SUPREME COURT THAT

WRONG, THI THI S I S BEYOND YO YOU UR POL POL I CY- MAKI AKI NG POW POWERS.

THI THI S

I T I S PRO PROTECTED TECTED BY SOM SOMETHI ETHI NG CALLED ALL ED THE THE BI BI L L OF OF

23

10: 40: 25

1

SO I ' M HAVI AVI NG A HAR HARD D TI ME UN UNDERSTAN ERSTANDI NG, AND AND TRUST TRUST

2

ME, I HAVE AVE LO L OOKED AT THI S, AND AND WHEN I SEE J UDGE YOU YOUNG, WHO I

3

RESPECT, RESPECT, TALK TAL K ABO ABOUT DEM DEMOCR CRAC ACY, Y, AND AND I READ ABOUT TH THE KOL KOL BE CASE, CASE,

4

AND AND WE' RE SAYI NG, WAI T A MI NUTE, WAI T A MI NUTE, THESE THESE ARE ARE

5

POLI POLI CY DEC DECII SI ONS, AND I SAY SAY TO MYSELF, WAI T, THA THAT AR ARROW LEFT LEF T

6

BOW A L ONG TI ME AG AGO.

7

BI L L OF RI GHTS, THE THE STATE DO DOESN' ESN' T HAV HAVE E THE THE LI L I BERTY ERTY TO T O MAKE AKE

I F I T' S SOMETHI ETHI NG THAT' THAT' S PRO PROTECTED TECTED BY THE THE

8

 THES  THESE E POLI POLI CY DECI ECI SI ONS.

9

 TI ME TRYI TRYI NG TO FI GURE OUT - - AND I KNOW THE THE STATE STATE I S GOI NG TO

10

ENL ENL I GHTEN TEN ME WHEN I TS TURN TURN COMES UP, TO TEL TEL L ME WHEN I S I T A

11

POL POL I CY DECI ECI SI ON AND AND WHEN I S I T NO NOT A POL POL I CY DECI ECI SI ON.

12

DOES THE CO COURT HAV HAVE E THE THE ABI ABI L I TY TO SAY, ENO ENOUGH I S ENO ENOUGH; THI THI S

13

I S PROTECTED PROTECTED BY THE THE BI L L OF RI GHTS, AND AND NO MATTER HO HOW WI SE YOU YOU

14

MAY THI THI NK YO YOU UR POL POL I CY I S, I T J UST CAN CAN' T PASS PASS MUSTER. STER.

10: 41: 40 15 16

YOU YO U J UST CAN' T.

SO I ' M HAVI NG A HARD

WHEN

WHAT DO

 YOU  YOU THI THI NK? MS. BARV BARVII R:

I THI THI NK I WANT ANT TO GO BAC BACK TO THAT THAT PHRA PHRASE SE

17

" PREDI CTI VE J UDGMENTS. ENTS. "

STATES AND CI TI ES THAT THAT ARE ARE TRYI NG TO

18

DEFEND EF END GUN CO CONTRO NTROL L L AWS THAT T HAT ARE BEI NG CHAL CHALL L ENGED ENGED ON SECO SECOND ND

19

AMENDM ENDMENT GRO GROUN UNDS REGUL REGULARL ARLY Y RESO RESORT TO THI S LAN LANG GUAGE.

20

HONORABLE RABL E J UDGES WHO WRO ROT TE THE THE WORMAN AND KOLBE KOLBE OPI NI ONS - - YOU

21

KNO KN OW, THE PRED PREDII CTI VE J UDGMENT LAN L ANG GUAGE AGE COMES FRO F ROM SUPREME SUPREME COURT

22

CASE ASE LAW, BUT BUT I THI THI NK THEY THEY TAKE TAKE I T TOO TOO FAR. FAR.

23

CASE LAW I S REA REALL LLY Y CLEA CLEAR R ABOUT I S, YES, YES, THE THE LEGI LEGI SLATU SLATUR RE I S

24

ENTI TL ED TO SOME DEFERE DEFEREN NCE WHEN I T COM COMES TO, DO WE HAVE A

25

COMPEL PEL L I NG I NTEREST? TEREST?

AND AND THE

I THI THI NK WHAT THE THE

MAYBE EVEN I F THEY THEY REASO REASON NABLY THOUGHT THE THE

24

10: 42: 20

1

L AW COUL D BE EFF EF FECTI VE.

WHAT THEY DON' T GET THI THI S BRO BROAD

2

DEFERENC EFERENCE TO, TO, WHAT THE THE J UDI CI AL BRAN BRANC CH HAS THE THE RESPO RESPON NSI BI L I TY

3

 TO LOO LOOK AT, I S WHETHER ETHER OR NOT THE THE FI T I S APPRO PPROPRI PRI ATE, WHETHER ETHER

4

I T REA REAL L L Y I S LI KELY TO ADVAN VANCE THE THE I NTERESTS TERESTS THAT THAT AR ARE BEI BEI NG

5

STATED OR - -

6

 THE  THE COURT:

HOW DO WE DECI ECI DE THA THAT FI T?

SO THA THAT

7

ASSUM ASSUMES SOMETHI ETHI NG L ESS THAN THAN STRI CT SCRU SCRUTI TI NY, RI GHT?

8

NOW I NTO A HEI HEI GHTENED SCRU SCRUTI NY BUT BUT MORE THAN THAN RATI RATI ONAL BASI S,

9

BUT BUT HOW DO WE DECI DE WHAT I S A REASON REASONABLE ABLE FI F I T AND AND WHO DECI DES

10

SO WE' RE

I T?

11

MS. BARVI ARVI R:

YOU YO U KN KNO OW, OBVI OUSLY, SLY , THE THE L EGI EGI SLATUR SLATURE I S

12

GOI NG TO MAKE I TS DECI ECI SI ON FI RST.

13

OF THE THE J UDI CI ARY ARY TO T O MAKE AKE SURE SURE THAT THAT THE THE DEC DECII SI ONS THEY' VE MADE

14

ARE ARE I N L I NE WI TH THE THE CO CONSTI TUTI TUTI ON.

10: 43: 15 15

BUT I T' S THE THE RESPO ESPON NSI BI LI TY

ALL TH T HOSE CASES CASES THAT THAT YO YOU UR

HONOR J UST SPO SP OKE OF ARE EXAM EXAMPLES PL ES OF OF TH T HE J UDI CI ARY ARY UPHO UPHOL DI NG I TS

16

POW POWER AND AND AUTH AUTHO ORI TY AND AND RESPON RESPONSI BI L I TY TO PROTECT PROTECT TH T HE

17

CONSTI TUTI TUTI ON, THE THE RI GHTS OF THE THE MI NORI TI ES, FROM MOB RULE.

I

18

 THI  THI NK I T' S DEFI NI TELY A HARD QUESTI ESTI ON, BUT I T' S SOMETHI ETHI NG THA THAT

19

 THE  THE COURT I S GOI NG TO HAVE TO GRAPPLE WI TH BUT - -

20

 THE  THE COURT:

I T KI ND OF CUTS TO THE THE CHASE.

WHEN I

21

L OOK AT THI THI S CASE, CASE, I T CU CUTS TO THE THE CH CHASE.

22

MAKES THE DECI DECI SI ON AND AND ON WHAT BASI S DO DO WE MAKE TH THE DECI DECI SI ON?

23

RI GHT?

24 25

THE THE CH CHASE I S, WHO

AND AND THE THE GROUP THI THI NK I S, WELL EL L , AS L ONG AS WE KNO KNOW THESE THESE

 THI  THI NGS ARE DANGERO EROUS, WE' RE GOI NG TO ALLO LL OW I T; WE' RE GOI NG TO ALLO ALL OW RESTRI ESTRI CTI ONS ON I T.

RI GHT?

EXC EXCEPT FO FOR R HELL ER AND AND

25

10: 44: 14

1

CAETAN AETANO, RI GHT?

2

OWN I NDEPEN EPENDENT ENT TH T HI NKI NG.

3

BUT BUT AS J UDGES, WE' RE EXPECTED EXPECTED TO EXERC EXERCI SE OUR

MS. BA BARVI R:

4

 THE  THE COURT:

CORRECT. ECT. BUT MY QUESTI ESTI ON THA THAT YO YOU U PRO PROBABLY CANNOT

5

ANSW ANSWER, AND AND I DON' T TH THI NK THE STATE WI L L BE ABL ABL E TO ANSW ANSWER FOR FOR

6

ME EI THER, THER, I S:

7

ALL OW THE THE STATE TO TO I NTERFERE TERFERE WI TH WHAT I S AT LEAST LEAST ARG ARGUABL ABL Y

8

PROTECTED TECTED BY TH THE SECO SECOND AMENDMENT?

9

HOW DO WE MAKE THE DECI SI ON OF HO HOW FAR CAN CAN WE

MS. BARV BARVII R:

AND AND SO I NEED EED YOUR YOUR HEL HELP P.

I RESPECT RESPECT THAT THAT YO YOU UR HONOR I S

10

CONSI DERI ERI NG, L I KE, HOW FAR CAN THEY THEY GO.

11

CASES CASES THAT THAT HAVE HAVE MADE ADE I T TH T HROUGH THE PI PEL PEL I NE AND AND THAT THAT ARE

12

KNO KN OCKI NG ON THE THE SU SUPREME COU COURT' S DOOR ASKI NG HOW FAR CAN THE

13

STATE STATE GO.

14

POSSI POSSI BLE MEANS. EANS.

10: 45: 22 15 16 17

THER THERE E AR ARE LOTS LOTS OF

BUT BUT WHAT WE HAVE HERE I S, AGAI AGAI N, THE BRO BROADEST ADEST I F THE THE COURT FI NDS THAT THAT POSSESSI POSSESSI ON AND AND/ OR

ACQ ACQUI SI TI ON OF MAGAZI AZI NES OVER OVER 10 ROU ROUNDS I S PRO P ROTECTED BY BY THE THE CONSTI TUTI TUTI ON, HELLER ELL ER I S VER VERY CLEAR CLEAR, YO YOU U SI MPLY PL Y CAN CANNOT BAN BAN I T.  THE  THE COURT:

WHAT DO I LOO LOOK TO TO DECI ECI DE WHETHER ETHER OR

18

NOT A MAGAZI AZI NE I S BY BY I TSELF TSEL F AN ARM ARM THAT THAT I S PROTECTED BY THE THE

19

SECOND AMEND NDM MENT NT? ?

20

MS. BARVI R:

I THI THI NK I N THE THE NI NTH CI RCUI T YOU' RE

21

GOI NG TO L OOK AT J ACKSO ACKSON N AND AND TO RECO RECOGNI ZE FRO F ROM THE NI NI NTH

22

CI RCUI T' S DEC DECII SI ON THER THERE E THA THAT WE' RE NO NOT LI L I MI TED TO FI REAR EARMS.

23

WE' RE ALSO ALSO PROTE PROTECTI CTI NG THE RI RI GHTS OF OF TH T HOSE TH THI NGS THAT THAT ARE

24

NECESSARY TO MAKE OUR FI REARM REARMS USABL USABLE E AN AND EFF EF FECTI VE.

25

MEANS EANS AM AMMUNI TI ON.

AND AND THAT THAT

I T MEANS EANS PARTS THAT THAT ARE ARE NECESSARY TO THE

26

10: 46: 04

1

OPERA PERATI ON.

2

SHOW, DETACH ETACHABL ABLE E MAGAZI AGAZI NES ARE NECESSARY TO T O THE FU FUNCTI ON OF ALL AL L

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 10: 46: 50 15 16 17

AS THE THE EVI EVI DENC ENCE AND THE THE BRI EFI NG FROM PLA PL AI NTI FF

 THO  THOSE FI REAR EARMS THA THAT REQUI RE THEI THEI R USE. SE.  THE  THE COURT:

BUT THEY' THEY' RE NOT BANNI NG ALL MAGAZI NES.

MS. BARV BARVII R:  THE  THE COURT:

THAT' THAT' S CORREC RRECT, T, YO YOU UR HONOR. SO SAY, SAY, FO FOR R EXA EXAMPLE, A GLOC LOCK 17 WHERE ERE YO YOU U

CAN CAN USE A 1010- ROUND MAGAZI AZI NE, RI GHT? MS. BARVI R:  THE  THE COURT: ALL MAGAZI AZI NES.  THEY'  THEY' RE NOT.

YES. YES. OKAY. KAY.

SO THEY' THEY' RE NOT COMPLETELY BANNI NG

I F THEY THEY WERE, I T WOUL D BE ONE STORY. STORY.

BUT BUT

SO HOW DO YO YOU U RESPO ESPON ND TO THA THAT?

MS. BAR BARVI R:

I THI THI NK I HAVE A FEW RESPO ESPON NSES. SES.

FI RST, ST,

 J UST SAYI SAYI NG THA THAT THEY' THEY' RE NOT BANNI NG EVER EVERY Y SI NGLE MAGAZI NE KI ND OF TAKES US US BAC BACK K TO HELL EL L ER.

THEY THEY WEREN' EREN' T BAN BANNI NG ALL TYPES TYPES OF OF

FI REAR EARMS EI THER THER I N THE THE DI DI STRI STRI CT O OF F COLUM LUMBI A.  THE  THE COURT:

BUT THEY THEY WERE ERE BANNI NG ALL HANDGUNS.

MS. BARV BARVII R:

ALL HAN HAND DGUNS, YEAH. YEAH.

BUT BUT THE THE COURT TELL TEL L S

18

US J UST BECAU BECAUSE SE THERE' THERE' S AN OPTI ON TO USE SOM SOMETHI ETHI NG ELSE EL SE I SN' SN' T

19

ENO ENOUGH TO PROTECT PROTECT THE THE RI RI GHT.

20

17 RO ROUN UNDS FO F OR HAN HAND DGUNS AND 24 TO 30 RO ROUN UNDS FO F OR RI FL ES, ES, ARE

21

COMMONL Y PO P OSSESSED SSESSED BY LAW L AWFUL PURPO PURPOSES SES BY LAW L AW- ABI ABI DI NG CI TI ZENS, ZENS,

22

 THEY'  THEY' RE PRO PROTECTED TECTED.

SI NCE MAGAZI AZI NES, AT LEAST 15 TO

YOU YO U CAN' T HAVE THE THE STATE STATE COME BACK AND SAY, SAY,

23

WELL EL L , J UST BECAUSE BECAUSE YO Y OU CAN USE 10 1 0 ROU ROUNDS OR OR FEW FEWER AND AND THEY' THEY' RE

24

AVAI AVAI L ABLE, ABLE, THAT' THAT' S NO NOT A J UDGMENT ENT TH T HAT TH THE STATE ST ATE CAN MAKE WHEN

25

 THES  THESE E TYPES OF ARMS ARE PRO PROTECTED TECTED BY THE THE CONSTI TUTI TUTI ON.

SO THA THAT

27

10: 47: 28

1 2

WOUL D BE MY RESP RESPO ONSE.  THE  THE COURT:

3 4

MS. BARVI R:  THE  THE COURT:

AND AND ADD ADDI TI ONALL ALL Y, EXCUSE EXCUSE ME - YOU YO U LOST LOST YO YOU UR TRA TRAI N OF THO THOUGHT. LOST LOST MY TRA TRAI N OF THO THOUGHT.

I ' M SORRY.

LET ME I NTERR TERRUPT YO YOU U WI TH ONE OF MY

5

QUESTI ONS.

6

I N ONE PAR P ART T THEY THEY TALK TAL K ABOUT AR' AR' S BEI NG POSSESSE POSSESSED D BY ON ONL Y ONE

7

PERC PERCEN ENT T O OF F TH T HE POPUL POPULATI ATI ON.

8 9

I N READ READI NG KOL BE, I WAS A L I TTLE TTL E CONFUSED BECAU BECAUSE SE

SO WHAT THEY WERE TRYI NG TO DO I N

 THE  THE KOLBE OPI NI ON I S TO ESSE ESSEN NTI ALLY LL Y EXPLAI EXPLAI N THA THAT THEY THEY WERE ERE NOT I N COMMON USE.

BUT BUT THEN THEN I N ANO ANOTHER PART OF KOL KOL BE THEY THEY SAI D - -

10

AGAI N, KEEPI NG I N MI ND THAT THAT A L OT OF OF TH T HI S I S SORT SORT OF MERG MERGI NG OR

11

BLEND LENDI NG I N WI TH THE THE OTHER THER - - I T SA SAYS: YS:

12

EVI DENCE ENCE REFLECTS REFL ECTS THAT THAT SI NCE I T WAS FI RST MARKETED ARKETED TO THE THE

13

PUB PUBL I C I N 1963, THE THE ARAR- 15 HAS HAS BEC BECO OME THE THE MOST POPU POPUL L AR CI VI L I AN

14

RI FL E DESI DESI GNED I N AMERI CA AN AND I S MADE I N MANY ANY VARI VARI ATI ONS BY BY

10: 48: 56 15 16

THE THE PLAI PLAI NTI FF' S

MANY ANY COMPANI ES. SO I WAS A LI TTL TT L E CONFUSED WHEN I WAS READI READI NG KO KOL L BE.

17

ON THE ON ONE HAND HAND THEY SAY, SAY, WELL EL L , THEY' THEY' RE ON ONL Y OWNED BY BY ONE

18

PERCEN PERCENT T OF THE THE POPU POPUL L ATI ON.

19

AND AND THEN THEN THEY THEY SAI SAI D, BUT BUT I T' S BEC BECO OME

 THE  THE MOST POPU POPULAR LAR CI VI LI AN RI FLE FL E DESI ESI GNED I N AMERI ERI CA.

I WAS A

20

L I TTL TT L E CONF USED SED BY THAT.

21

POPUL POPULAR AR ARE ARE WEAPON EAPONS I N CAL CAL I FORN RNII A THAT THAT USE MAGAZI AGAZI NES OF MORE

22 23 24 25

DO YOU HAVE ANY ANY NUM NUMBERS ON ON HOW

 THA  THAN 10 ROUNDS? MS. BARVI ARVI R:

THE THE EVI EVI DENC ENCE I THI THI NK WOUL D COME FROM - -

A LOT LOT OF OF TH T HE EVI DENC ENCE OBV OBVII OUSLY SL Y I S DEALI DEALI NG WI TH THE THE UBI UBI QUI TY OF OF  THE  THE MAGAZI NES OVER 10 ROUNDS THEM THEMSELVE SELVES. S.

BUT THE THE EVI EVI DENC ENCE THA THAT

28

10: 49: 46

1

GOT US TO T O THOSE NUMBERS I THI NK WE HAVE ESTI EST I MATES ATES BETW BET WEEN EEN 100 100

2

AND AND 115 MI L L I ON MAGAZI AZI NES OVER OVER 10 ROU ROUNDS I N THE THE UNI UNI TED STATES

3

 THR  THROUGHOUT THE THE MARKET. KET.

4

 THE  THE COURT:

5

DO YO YOU U HAVE ANY NUMBERS ERS FO FOR R CALI FO FOR RNI A?

MS. BARV BARVII R:

DON' T HAVE AVE DI RECT RECT NUMBERS BERS FOR

6

CALI FO FOR RNI A.

I THI THI NK I T' S FAI R TO CONCEDE EDE THA THAT THEY' THEY' RE GOI NG TO

7

BE LO LOWER CO CONSI DERI NG THE STATE HAS BAN BANN NED THEI R ACQ ACQUI SI TI ON AND AND

8

MANUFACTU FACTUR RE SI NCE 2010 - - I MEAN EAN, 2000.

9

DOESN' ESN' T MAKE I T RI RI GHT.

OBVI OUSLY, SLY , THAT THAT

WHAT YO YOU U' RE DOI NG I S SORT OF MAKI AKI NG I T

10

A CI RC RCU UL AR ARG ARGUMENT. ENT.

THEY' THEY' RE NOT I N USE I N CALI FO FORN RNI A BECAU BECAUSE SE

11

WE BAN BANN NED THEM 20 YEARS AGO.

12

WORK.

13

MI L L I ONS TH T HAT ARE I N THE HAN HAND DS OF OF PEO PEOPL E TH T HROUGHOUT THE

14

COUNTRY.

THAT' S NO NOT THE WAY THE THE RI GHTS

SO THE NU NUMBERS THAT WE' RE LO L OOKI NG AT ARE GO GOI NG TO BE THE

10: 50: 34 15

I THI THI NK YOU' LL SEE THA THAT AR AR' S AR ARE QUI TE POPU POPULAR LAR I N

16

CALI FO FOR RNI A THO THOUGH.

17

REGI EGI STRA STRATI ON I S REQUI RED FO FOR R MANY TYPES. TYPES.

18

VERY VERY PO P OPULAR, AND AND THO THOSE NU NUMBERS, BERS, AGAI N, THEY' THEY' RE GOI NG TO BE

19

COMI NG FROM FROM THE THE NATI ONWI DE L OOKI NG, NATI ONWI DE VI EWPOI POI NT.

20

THER THERE' E' S A L OT OF RESTR RESTRII CTI ON ON THEI THEI R USE. BUT THEY' THEY' RE STI STI LL

BUT BUT

 THE  THE WORK OF THE THE PLAI NTI FF' S EXPER EXPERT T FR FRO OM THE THE NATI ONAL TRA TRAI NI NG

21

SPO SPORTS FOU FOUNDATI ON KI ND OF TAL TALKS KS ABO ABOUT THAT. THAT.

THEY LO LOOKED AT THE THE

22

NUMBERS OF OF HOW MANY ANY PEO PEOPL E HAD HAD THE TYPE TY PES S OF OF RI FL E PL P L ATFO ATF ORMS

23

 THA  THAT WOULD ACCEPT LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY MAGAZI NES TO THEN THEN MAKE THE THE

24

ESTI MATES OF OF NUMBERS BERS OF OF L ARG ARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AZI NES I N THE

25

COUNTRY.

SO THAT' THAT' S THE THE BEST I CAN DO FOR YO YOU U, YO YOU UR HONOR, ON

29

10: 51: 14

1

NUMBERS OF OF AW' S I N THE STATE STATE AND AND I N THE CO COUNTRY.

2 3 4

SO I THI THI NK GO GOI NG BACK TO KOLBE, THER THERE' E' S DEFI DEFI NI TELY SOM SOME CO CONFUSI NG BI TS ABO ABOUT THAT. THAT.

I T' S HAR HARD D TO KI ND OF SUGGEST

 THA  THAT, YO YOU U KN KNO OW, WELL, MAYBE YBE I T' S ONLY ONE PERC PERCENT ENT OF THE THE U. S.

5

POPUL POPULATI ATI ON, BUT BUT I T' S THE MOST COM COMMON MODERN FI REARM REARM ON THE

6

MARKET. ARKET.

7

I N THI THI S CO COUNTRY, THAT' THAT' S STI L L A WHOL E LOT LOT OF PEOPL PEOPLE. E.

8

FACT THAT THE THE PEOPL PEOPL E THAT T HAT DO OWN GUN UNS S OVERWHELM HEL MI NGL Y CHOOSE

9 10

BUT BUT I T' S NOT NECESSAR ECESSARII L Y CONTRAD TRADI CTO TORY. RY.

ONE PERCEN PERCENT T AND THE THE

 THO  THOSE TYPES OF FI REAR EARMS, AND NOW THE THE LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY MAGAZI NES  THA  THAT GO WI TH THEM THEM, THA THAT' S WHAT MAKES KES THEM THEM I N COMMON USE.

I T' S

11

NOT RAW RAW NUMBERS NECESSARI L Y.

12

MI L L I ON OF THEM, OF MAGAZI AGAZI NES OVER OVER 10 ROUNDS I N THE CO COUNTRY.

13 14 10: 52: 06 15

 THA  THAT' S A RAW NUMBER. ER.

OBVI OUSLY, SL Y, WE HAVE A HUNDRED

THA THAT' S VERY ERY HI GH UNDER ANY MEASU EASUR RE.

I F YOU YOU' RE LO L OOKI NG AT AW AW' S AN AND THE THE KOL BE CO COURT I S SAYI SAYI NG I T' S ONL Y ON ONE PERCEN PERCENT, T, WELL EL L , BUT BUT THERE' THERE' S STI L L TH T HAT ONE PERCEN PERCENT T IS

16

CHOOSI NG THAT THAT TYPE OF OF FI REAR EARM, AND AND I T' S THE THE MOST POPU POPUL L AR. AR.

17

DON' T N NEC ECESSAR ESSARII L Y THI THI NK THEY' THEY' RE CO CONTRAD TRADI CTO TORY RY STATEM STATEMENTS. ENTS.

18

 THE  THE COURT:

19

KOL BE.

20

MAJ ORI TY OPI NI ON.

21

BUT

I

LET ME ASK YO YOU U ABOUT ANOTHER THER STATEM STATEMENT ENT I N

I KN KNO OW THE THE STATE RELI ED ON KOL BE A L OT.

SO I READ EAD THE THE

THER THERE' E' S AN I NTERESTI TERESTI NG STATEM STATEMENT ENT I N THER THERE E

 THA  THAT I THI THI NK I S A LI TTLE PUZ PUZZLI NG TO ME. BUT BUT I T SAYS:

MAYBE YBE YO YOU U CAN EXPLAI EXPLAI N

22

I T TO ME.

THE THE BAN BANNED L ARG ARGE CAPACI APACI TY MAGAZI AZI NES

23

ARE ARE PARTI CUL CUL ARL ARL Y DESI DESI GNED AND AND MOST SUI TABLE FO F OR MI L I TARY AND AND

24

L AW ENFO ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT APPLI APPL I CATI ONS, NOTI NG THAT THAT LARG LARGE CAPAC CAPACII TY

25

MAGAZI AGAZI NES ARE MEANT EANT TO PROVI DE SO SOL DI ERS WI TH A LARG LARGE AMMUNI TI ON

30

10: 53: 00

1

SUPPL SUPPLY Y AN AND THE THE AB ABI L I TY TO RELOAD ELOAD RAPI DL Y.

2

I HAVE AVE A BI BI T OF OF A PROBLEM PROBLEM WI TH THAT THAT STATEMEN STATEMENT T BECAU BECAUSE SE

3

PRI PRI OR TO THA THAT I T SAYS SAYS:: SI MPLY PUT, PUT, AR- 15 TYPE RI FLES AR ARE,

4

QUOTE, LI KE M- 16 RI FLES. FL ES.

5

WHEN I READ EAD I T, AND I UNDERSTAN ERSTAND I ' M NOT THE THE BR BRI GHTEST LI L I GHT

6

BUL B I N THE THE BUI BUI L DI NG, BUT WHEN I READ EAD THAT, THAT, I T TELL TEL L S ME THAT THAT

7

M- 16S AND ARAR- 15S ARE ARE NO NOT THE THE SAM SAME.

8

WEAPO EAP ON.

9

MS. BAR BARVI R:

10

 THE  THE COURT:

11

MS. BARVI R:

12

 THE  THE COURT:

SO BY DEFI NI TI ON, WHEN YO YOU U READ EAD THA THAT,

THE THE M- 16 I S A MI L I TARY TARY

THA THAT' S CORRECT. ECT. AR- 15 I S NOT A MI LI TAR TARY WEAPO EAPON N. I T' S A CI VI LI AN WEAPO EAPON. I T MAY HAVE - - I N FACT, FACT, THA THAT' S EXA EXACTLY

13

RI GHT.

14

BEEN DESI GNED AFTER A MI L I TARY TARY WEAPO EAPON N, BUT I T DI DI FF FFER ERS S I N THE THE

10: 53: 55 15

I N FACT, FACT, KOLBE SPEC SPECI FI CALLY LL Y SAYS SAYS THA THAT.

MI L I TARY TARY WEAPON EAPON I N VARI VARI OUS REGARD ARDS.

16

MS. BA BARVI R:

17

 THE  THE COURT:

I T MAY HAVE

RI GHT?

CORRECT. ECT. SO I F AN AR- 15 USES SES A MAGAZI NE THA THAT HOLDS LDS

18

MORE THAN THAN 10 ROU ROUNDS, BUT BUT I T WAS NO NOT DESI DESI GNED FOR MI L I TARY USE,

19

I T WAS DESI GNED FO FOR R CI VI LI AN USE, I T DOESN' ESN' T REA REALL LL Y HO HOLD. LD.

20

MAGAZI AGAZI NES ARE NOT MEANT TO TO PROVI DE SO SOL DI ERS WI TH A LARG L ARGE E AMOUNT

21

OF AMMUNI TI ON, I T I S DESI DESI GNED TO PROVI DE THE HO HOL DER OF THE THE

22

WEAPO EAPON - - NOT A SOL SOL DI ER, BUT BUT THE HOL DER OF OF THE WEAPO EAPON WHI CH

23

PRES PRESU UMPTI VELY I S A CI VI LI AN - - WI TH A LAR LARGE AM AMMUNI TI ON SUPPLY, SUPPLY,

24

RI GHT?

25

MS. BA BARVI R:

THE THE

CORRECT. ECT.

31

10: 54: 37

1

 THE  THE COURT:

2

MS. BARVI R:

I T SEEM SEEMS SO CLEAR LEAR TO ME. I T I S PRETTY PRETTY CLEAR, LEAR, YO YOU UR HONOR.

BUT

3

EVEN EVEN I F I T WERE ERE A MI LI TAR TARY FI REAR EARM AND EVEN EVEN I F LA L ARGE CA CAPACI PACI TY

4

MAGAZI AGAZI NES WERE MAD MADE E TO TO GI VE SO SOL DI ERS ACCESS ACCESS TO TO L ARGE ARGE AMOUNTS OF OF

5

AMMUNI TI ON, WHI CH I DON' T THI NK THE THE EVI DENCE ENCE BEAR BEARS S OU OUT TH THAT THE THE

6

STATE' S PROVI PROVI DED - - THEY THEY REALLY REALL Y J UST CI TE KOL KOL BE AN AND WORMAN FO FOR R

7

SUC SUCH A PROPOSI POSI TI ON - - EVEN I F THAT THAT WERE TRUE, TRUE, THE THE SECON SECOND

8

AMEND ENDMENT ENT EXPLI CI TLY TALKS TALKS ABO ABOUT MI LI TI A SER SERVI CE SO - -

9 10

 THE  THE COURT:

THA THAT GETS US I NTO A WHOLE DI FFEREN FFERENT T

AREN ARENA. A.

11

MS. BAR BARVI R:

12

 THE  THE COURT:

THA THAT' S TRU TRUE. THA THAT GETS US I NTO A WHOLE DI FFEREN FFERENT T ARENA ENA

13

WHI CH I S A QU QUAGMI RE THAT THAT WE' RE GO GOI NG TO TO,, I GUESS, PERHAPS PERHAPS WE' RE

14

GOI NG TO EXPL EXPLO ORE.

10: 55: 39 15 16

19

I DON' T

SEE AN ANYTHI YTHI NG I N HELL EL L ER THAT THAT SAYS SAYS THAT THAT MI L I TARY TARY EQU EQUI PMENT ENT I S NO NOT PRO PROTECTED TECTED..

17 18

BUT I HAVE A VERY ERY DI FF FFII CULT TI ME.

I T DOESN' ESN' T SAY SAY THA THAT AT ALL . MS. BARVI R:

SAY SAY THA THAT.

YOU YO U' RE NOT MI SSI NG ANYTHI YTHI NG.

I T DOESN' ESN' T

I T TALKS TALKS ABOUT -  THE  THE COURT:

SO AS I SAI SAI D, I ' M NOT THE THE BRI GHTEST TEST LI GHT

20

BUL BUL B I N THE THE BU BUI L DI NG, BUT BUT WHY I S I T THAT THAT AL AL L TH T HE OTHER THER COURTS,

21

L I KE KOL BE, FO FOR R EXAM EXAMPLE, PL E, SAY OTHERW THERWI SE?

22

BECAU BECAUSE SE AL AL L I READ READ WAS

 THA  THAT J USTI CE SCA SCALI A POSE POSED D A RHETORI CAL DEVI EVI CE BY WHI CH HE

23

CREATED CREATED A STRAW ST RAW MAN ONL Y TO BE ABL ABLE E TO KNOCK DO DOWN THE ST STRAW MAN

24

FURT URTHER ON ON I N HI S ARGUM ARGUMENT; BUT BUT NOWHERE I N THAT ARGUM ARGUMENT DOES

25

HE SAY, SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, PL E, THAT THAT M- 16S ARE ARE BAN BANN NED OR PROH PROHI BI TED. TED.

DO

32

10: 56: 24

1

 YOU  YOU KNOW WHERE ERE I N HELLER I MI GHT FI ND THA THAT LANG LANGUAGE?

2

MS. BARV BARVII R:

3 4 5 6

 THE  THE COURT:  THI  THI S?

YOU YO U WON' T FI ND THAT THAT L ANG ANGUAGE. THEN THEN HOW I S I T THE THE PEOPLE KEEP KEEP REPEA EPEATI NG

I KEEP KEEP READ EADI NG I T, AND I KEEP KEEP THI THI NKI NG, YO YOU U KNOW, THI THI S

I S L I KE ALI CE I N WONDERLAND ERLAND.

I DON' T UNDERSTAN ERSTAND.

WHERE DOES

 THI  THI S COME FROM?

7

MS. BARVI R:

HAVI NG PRA PRACTI CED THI THI S TYPE OF LAW FO FOR R A

8

WHI L E, I HAVE AVE MY ASSU ASSUM MPTI ONS.

BUT BUT I THI THI NK WHAT WE' VE SEEN

9

HAPPEN I S TH T HI S TAK T AKII NG FROM FROM HELL EL L ER THE THE DAN DANG GEROUS- AND AND- UNUSUAL SUAL

10

L ANG ANGUAGE AGE AN AND TURN TURNI NG I T I NTO UNUSUAL SUAL L Y- DANG ANGEROU EROUS LANG LANGUAGE. AGE.

ALL ALL

11

FI REARMS ARE GOI NG TO BE BE DAN DANGEROU EROUS BUT I T MEANS THEY HAVE TO TO BE

12

UNUSUAL. SUAL.

AND AND THEN THEY PUT THAT THAT TOG TOGETH ETHER WI TH THE APPRO APP ROVAL

13

 THA  THAT HELLER GI VES TO MI LLER LL ER ABOUT SAW SAWED- OFF SHO SHOTGU TGUNS, THEN THEN THEY THEY

14

L UMP A BUN BUNCH OF FI REARM REARMS I N AND AND SAY, WELL EL L , NOT ALL AL L FI REARM REARMS ARE

10: 57: 15 15 16

PRO PROTECTED TECTED..

SO I T J UST KI ND OF TUR TURNED I NTO THI THI S - -

 THE  THE COURT:

BUT MI LLER LL ER SPEC SPECI FI CALLY, LL Y, MI LLER LL ER

17

SPECI SPECI FI CAL CAL L Y SAYS SAYS TH T HAT WEAPON EAPONS TH THAT ARE USED USED FOR WARFARE ARE

18

PROTECTED. TECTED.

19 20

MS. BAR BARVI R:  THE  THE COURT:

21

MS. BARV BARVII R:

THA THAT' S CORRECT. ECT. RI GHT? RI GHT.

AND AND THEY THEY FOUND THAT THAT SAWEDED- OFF

22

SHOTGUN TGUNS ARE NOT PARTI P ARTI CUL CUL ARLY ARLY USEFU USEF UL I N WARFARE SO SO THEY COUL D

23

BE BAN BANNED. ED.

24 25

 THE  THE COURT:

WHI CH I NTERES TERESTI TI NGLY WOULD PRO PROBABLY BE

VERY VERY USEFUL USEFUL FO FOR R SELFSELF - DEFENSE; I F YO YOU U WOKE UP UP I N THE THE MI DDL E OF OF

33

10: 57: 42

1

 THE  THE NI GHT, AND YO YOU U HAD SOMEONE BREAK EAK I N YO YOU UR HOUSE, SE, YO YOU U

2

WOULD ULDN' T HAVE TO TO WORRY ABOUT ABOUT THE THE BULL BULL ET GOI NG THROUGH THAT WALL AL L

3

AND AND THAT WALL AL L AND AND GOI NG TO THE NEI NEI GHBOR' S HOUSE AND HI TTI TT I NG

4

SOM SOMEON EONE, RI GHT?

5

PRO ROBABL BABLY Y A SAW SAWED- OFF SHOT SHOTGUN WOULD ULD PROBABLY PROBABLY BE GOOD FOR

6

SELFSEL F- DEFENSE AT AT HO HOME, BUT BUT YET, YET , WE CAN CAN'' T HAV HAVE E THEM THEM, RI GHT?

7

YOU WOUL DN' T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT AI AI M.

MS. BAR BARVI R:

8

 THE  THE COURT:

SO

THA THAT' S TRU TRUE. BUT MI LLER LL ER SAI SAI D THA THAT WEAPO EAPON NS BECA ECAUSE - -

9

 THE  THE WHOLE REASO EASON FO FOR R THE THE SEC SECOND AMEND ENDMENT ENT WAS SO THA THAT I F WE

10

WERE REQU REQUI RED TO DEFEN EF END D OURSELVES RSEL VES FRO F ROM ENEM ENEMI ES, FOREI GN OR

11

DOMESTI C, I T WOUL D CALL UPON PON THE THE CI CI TI ZENRY ZENRY - - THE THE FARM FARMERS, THE THE

12

BLACKSM BLACKSMI THS, THS, THE THE TEACH TEACHERS, THE THE LAW L AWYERS, THE THE DO DOCTO TORS RS - - TO PI CK

13

UP WHATEVE ATEVER R TH THEY HAD AND AND TO GO OUT AND DEFEND EF END THE FREE F REE STAT ST ATE. E.

14

RI GHT?

10: 58: 34 15 16 17

MS. BA BARVI R:  THE  THE COURT:

CORRECT. ECT. AND MI LLER LL ER SAI SAI D - - AND MI LL ER SAI SAI D THA THAT

 THO  THOSE WEAPO EAPON NS ARE, I N FACT, FACT, PRO PROTECTED TECTED.

NOW PRA PRACTI CALL Y

18

SPEAKI SPEAKI NG, I THI THI NK WE ALL UNDERSTAND ERSTAND WHAT' S GO GOI NG ON.

19

US - - I SHO SHOUL DN' T SAY SAY " NONE OF US. US. "

20

BUT BUT I THI NK WE CAN ALL AL L AGREE AGREE TH THAT NONE OF OF US WOUL D L I KE TO T O SEE SEE

21

OUR NEXTNEXT- DOOR NEI NEI GHBOR OWN A SHO SHOUL DER- FI RED STI STI NGER MI SSI L E OR OR

22

BAZOO BAZOOKA OR HAN HAND D- GRENADE.

23

I F YO YOU U READ EAD I T AND AND READ EAD I TS REASO REASON N FO FOR R I TS EXI STENC STENCE, THAT THAT

24

WOULD ULD PRO ROBABL BABLY Y BE OKAY OKAY..

25

NONE OF

GENER ENERALI ALI TI ES ARE ARE NO NOT GOOD.

ALT AL THOUGH, UNDER THE SECO SECOND AMENDM ENDMENT,

SO I T SEEMS SEEMS TO ME THAT THAT THI S WHOL E I DEA THAT THAT THESE THESE - -

34

10: 59: 20

1

SO THE I DEA TH THAT BECAUSE BECAUSE LARG L ARGE - - REMEMBER WE USED TO TALK TAL K

2

ABOUT HI HI GH- CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES?

3

NOW WE CHAN CHANG GED THE

 TERM  TERMI NOLOG LOGY.

4

MS. BARVI ARVI R:

5

THAT THAT HAPPENS APPENS A L OT.

 THE  THE COURT:

SO NOW I T' S LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY MAGAZI NES. ES.

SO

6

L ARG ARGE CAPA CAPAC CI TY MAGAZI AZI NES ARE ARE FOR FOR MI L I TARY TARY USE. USE.

7

PROH PROHI BI TED BY HEL HELL L ER BECA BECAU USE HEL HELL L ER PROHI BI TS WEAPON EAPONS THAT THAT ARE

8

USED FO FOR R MI LI TAR TARY USE.

9

 J UST DON' T READ EAD I T.

BUT THEY' THEY' RE

BUT I DON' T READ EAD THA THAT I N HELLER ELL ER..

I DON' T SEE SEE I T.

I

I DON' T KNOW WHERE ERE I T I S.

10

BUT BUT I KEEP KEEP SEE SEEII NG CASES TH THAT SAY THAT OVER OVER AND AND OVER AND AND OVER

11

AGAI N.

12

MS. BARVI ARVI R:

L UCKI L Y, YO YOU U' RE NOT GOI NG TO FI ND THAT THAT

13

FROM FROM THE THE NI NI NTH CI RC RCU UI T TEL L I NG YO YOU U THAT THAT YOU YOU NEED TO FO FOL L L OW THAT THAT

14

PRECED PRECEDEN ENT. T.

11: 00: 06 15 16

HELL EL L ER I S GOI NG TO BE ON POI POI NT HERE.

THESE THESE ARE ARE

USED BY LAW- ABI ABI DI NG CI TI ZENS ZENS FOR FOR SELFSELF - DEFENSE REG REGAR ARD DL ESS OF OF  THEI  THEI R USE I N MI LI TAR TARY FUN FUNCTI ONS.

I T' S NOT THE THE STAN STANDARD.

17

L OOKI NG AT L AW- ABI ABI DI NG CI TI ZENS, ZENS, AND AND THEY THEY USE THEM THEM.

18

EVI DENC ENCE BEARS BEARS THAT THAT OUT.

19

 THE  THE COURT:

20

MS. BARVI R:

WHAT ABOUT A HUNDRED ROUND MAGAZI NE? THA THAT' S AN I NTERESTI TERESTI NG QUESTI ON.

MI GHT EVI DENCE ENCE THAT THAT THO THOSE ARE ARE UN UNUSUAL. SUAL.

22

OFT FTEN EN..

24 25

THE THE

THEY' THEY' RE PROTECTED. TECTED.

21

23

WE' RE

YOU YO U

THEY THEY DO DON' T SHO SHOW UP VERY

BUT BUT THAT' THAT' S NOT WHAT WE' RE TALKI NG ABO ABOUT, RI GHT?

WE' RE

 TALKI  TALKI NG ABOUT 11 ROUNDS, 15 ROUNDS, 17 ROUNDS.  THE  THE COURT:

NO, WE' RE NOT.

WE' RE TALKI TALKI NG ABOUT

ANYT ANYTH HI NG OVER 10 ROU ROUNDS.

35

11: 00: 36

1

MS. BARV BARVII R:

THAT' THAT' S TRUE. TRUE.

BUT BUT WHEN THE THE STATE HAS

2

DECI ECI DED TO ARBI TRA TRARI LY CU CUT I T OFF OFF AT 10 10 - - SO YES, YES, I T' S GOI NG

3

 TO PULL PULL I N THO THOSE 100100- ROUND DRUMS, BUT I T REALL EALLY Y I S GOI NG AFTER

4

WHAT I S COM COMMON.

5

17, 17, THE THE 24 TO 30. 30.

6

WHAT TH THE EVI DENCE SHOWS I S COM COMMON, THE 15 TO TO

 THE  THE COURT:

THA THAT' S WHY I ASKED SKED YO YOU U EAR EARLI ER ABOUT WHO

7

ACTUALL ACTUAL L Y MAKES AKES THE DECI SI ON AND AND BASED BASED ON WHAT? AT?

8

ALL OW THE THE STATE TO T O GO I N I NTERFERI TERFERI NG WI TH AN ARG ARGUABL ABL Y CLEAR CLEAR

9

SECON SECOND AMENDMENT ENT BECAUSE BECAUSE I TAKE I T WHAT YOU YOU' RE SAYI NG I S THE

10

HOW FAR DO WE

EVI DENCE ENCE SHOWS THAT A 100100- ROUND MAGAZI AGAZI NE I S NOT COMMON.

11

MS. BARV BARVII R:

THERE' THERE' S NO EVI DENC ENCE ABO ABOUT 100- ROUND

12

MAGAZI AZI NES REALLY REALL Y AT AT AL AL L .

13

POI POI NT TO T O THAT BOOGI E MAN, AN, BUT BUT TH T HERE' S NO NO EVI DENCE ENCE ABO ABOUT HOW

14

COM CO MMON OR UNCO UNCOMMON THEY ARE ARE..

11: 01: 24 15

DAY.

THEY THEY TALK ABO ABOUT THEM THEM.

THEY THEY WANT ANT TO

THAT MI GHT BE A CASE FO F OR ANO ANOTHER

I F THE STATE DEC DECII DES TO SAY 75 TO 100 RO ROUNDS I S A L ARG ARGE

16

CAPACI APACI TY MAGAZI AZI NE, THEN THEN THE THE SI DES WOUL D HAVE AVE TO FI GHT I T OU OUT,

17

I S TH T HERE EVI EVI DENCE ENCE TH T HAT TH T HOSE ARE I N COMMON USE AND AND AS SU SUCH

18

PROTECTED PROTECTED..

19

HERE, THERE THERE I S NO EVI DENCE ENCE THAT THAT THEY THEY ARE ARE OR NOT.

 THE  THE COURT:

AND I CERTA ERTAII NLY DON' T HAVE THE THE ABI LI TY,

20

OR DO DO I , TO MAKE THE DECI DECI SI ON TO WANT ANT AN I NJ UNCTI ON THAT WOUL D

21

RESTRAI RESTRAI N THE STATE FROM ENF ENFORC RCII NG THE THE STATU ST ATUTE TE WI TH REG REGAR ARD DS TO TO A

22

MAGAZI AGAZI NE TH THAT EXCEEDS EXCEEDS OR OR THAT THAT I S LESS L ESS THAN THAN 30 ROU ROUNDS, FOR

23

EXAM EXAMPLE; PL E; I T' S AN AN ALL OR NOTHI THI NG PROPOSI POSI TI ON FO FOR R ME, RI GHT?

24

MS. BARVI R:

AT THI THI S POI POI NT, YES, BECA ECAUSE THE THE STATE STATE

25

HAS DECI ECI DED THAT THAT I T' S 10 RO ROUNDS.

SO THEY THEY HAV HAVE E TAKEN TAKEN I N ALL OF

36

11: 02: 13

1

 THE  THE COMMONLY AND UNCOMMONLY POSSE POSSESS SSED ED MAGAZI NES. ES.

SO THE THE COURT

2

HAS TO STRI KE I T OR OR UPHO UPHOL D I T BASED ON WHAT THE THE THE LAW SAYS.

3

I F THE COURT' S DEC DECII SI ON I S BASED BASED ON, WELL EL L , WE KNO KNOW 30 RO ROUNDS I S

4

COMMON AND WE KNOW 15 AND 17 ROUNDS AND AND 11 ROUND ROUNDS ARE COMMON,

5

 THEN  THEN THE THE STATE STATE COULD OSTEN STENSI BLY GO BACK AND PASS PASS SOMETHI ETHI NG THA THAT

6

SAYS, OKAY, KAY, 75 ROUNDS, 50 ROUNDS, SOM SOMETHI ETHI NG L I KE THAT, THAT, AND AND THEN THEN

7

 THER  THERE E COULD POTEN POTENTI TI ALLY LL Y BE ANOTHER THER COURT FI GHT I N ANOTHER THER DAY.

8

SO THE CO COURT WOUL D HAVE TO SUSTAI N - - UPHOL D THE LAW LAW OR STRI KE

9

I T DOWN I N I TS EN ENTI RETY.

I DON' T THI THI NK THE THE COURT HAS HAS THE THE

10

ABI ABI L I TY TO T O REWRI TE THE THE LAW L AW TO SAY, WELL EL L , YO YOU U CAN BAN BAN MAGAZI AZI NES

11

OVER 50 ROUNDS.

12

 THE  THE COURT:

13 14 11: 03: 40 15

EXCUSE EXCUSE ME, YOUR YOUR HONOR. I T' S OKAY. KAY. DO YO YOU U NEED EED WATER? TER?

( PAUSE PAUSE I N THE THE PRO PROCEEDI NGS. )  THE  THE COURT:

SO LET ME ASK YO YOU U:

NOW YO YOU U CONCEDE, DO

 YOU  YOU NOT, THA THAT ANY GUN I S DANGERO EROUS?

16

MS. BARVI ARVI R:

OF COURSE.

THEY' THEY' RE DESI GNED TO

17

NEUTRA EUTRAL L I ZE THR THREAT, EAT, TO KI L L ANI ANI MALS; YES, A GUN I S GO GOI NG TO BE

18

DANG ANGEROUS. EROUS.

19 20 21 22

 THE  THE COURT:

YOU YO UR ARGUMENT ENT I S THA THAT THES THESE E LARG LARGE

CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZ AGAZII NES ARE NO NOT UNUSUAL. SUAL. MS. BAR BARVI R:  THE  THE COURT:

THA THAT' S CORRECT. ECT. AND UNDER HELLER, ELLER, I F I T' S A - - I N ORDER

23

FOR I T TO T O BE NOT PRO P ROTECTED, TECTED, I T HAS TO TO BE DAN DANG GEROU EROUS AND UNUSUAL

24

AND AND NOT PO POSSESSE SSESSED D BY NO NORMAL - - THAT' S NO NOT QU QUI TE TH T HE LAN L ANG GUAGE. AGE.

25

MS. BARVI R:

LAW LAW ABI DI NG.

37

11: 04: 37

1 2

 THE  THE COURT: CI TI ZENS.

3

I WAS GOI NG TO SAY SAY NORMAL, LAW- ABI DI NG

RI GHT? MS. BARVI R:

4

 THE  THE COURT:

THA THAT' S CORRECT. ECT.

THA THAT' S OUR POSI POSI TI ON.

AND YO YOU UR POSI POSI TI ON I S THA THAT LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY,

5

AT LEAST L EAST SOM SOME LARG L ARGE CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES, ALTHO ALTHOUGH THEY MAY BE

6

DANG ANGEROU EROUS, THEY' THEY' RE NOT UNUSUAL, SUAL, AND AND THEY ARE COM COMMONL Y USED SED BY

7

LAW- ABI DI NG CI TI ZENS. ENS.

8

MS. BARVI ARVI R:

9 10

 THE  THE COURT:

MS. BAR BARVI R:

12

 THE  THE COURT:

SO FO FOR R THA THAT REASO EASON, YO YOU U BELI EVE EVE I SHO SHOULD

THA THAT' S CORRECT. ECT. OKAY. KAY.

DO YO YOU U HAVE ANYTHI YTHI NG ELSE YO YOU U

WANT ANTED TO TELL EL L ME?

14 11: 05: 25 15

FOR FO R L AWFUL FUL PUR PURPOSE, POSE, YES.

GRANT RANT SUMMARY J UDGMENT.

11

13

CORREC RECT.

MS. BARVI R:

I THI THI NK I ' VE HI T EVER EVERYTH YTHII NG.

THA THANK YOU,

 YOU  YOUR HONOR.

16

 THE  THE COURT:

17

ALL RI GHT.

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

18

 THE  THE COURT:

19

LET' S HEAR EAR FR FRO OM THE THE STATE. STATE.

GOOD MORN RNII NG, YO YOU UR HONOR.

GOOD MORNI NG.

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

J OHN ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A FOR THE THE ATTORN ATTORNEY EY

20

GENERA ENERAL L.

21

FUNDAMENTAL ENTAL PU P UZZL ZZL E THAT THAT THI THI S CO COURT I S GRAPP RAPPL L I NG WI TH. TH.

22

I S, WHO MAKES THE THE POL POL I CY DECI SI ON, AND AND WHAT I S THE THE ROL E OF OF TH T HE

23

COURT I N EVAL EVAL UATI NG THAT THAT POL POL I CY DEC DECII SI ON TO ENSU ENSURE RE THAT THAT THERE' THERE' S

24

A REASO REASON NABL ABL E FI F I T BECAU BECAUSE TH T HE COURT DO DOES HAVE HAVE A SI GNI FI CAN CANT ROL ROL E

25

I ' D L I KE TO BEGI N BY ADDRESSI NG WHAT APP APPEAR EARS S TO BE A

 TO PLAY I N THA THAT PRO PROCESS. ESS.

AND AND THAT THAT

AND THE THE COURT REFEREN EFERENC CED BROWN VERSU ERSUS S

38

11: 06: 07

1

 THE  THE BOARD OF EDUCATI ON, LAWRENC ENCE VERSU ERSUS S TEXA TEXAS, OBERG ERGEFELL.

2

 THER  THERE' E' S MANY OTHER THER DECI ECI SI ONS, AS THE THE COURT KNOWS, I N WHI CH THE THE

3

 J UDI CI ARY HAS TAKE TAKEN N A FAI RLY ACTI VE ROLE I N MONI TO TOR RI NG THE THE

4

PUB PUBL I C' S POL POL I CY DEC DECII SI ONS TO ENSU ENSUR RE THAT THAT CO CONSTI TUTI TUTI ONAL

5

LI BERTI ERTI ES AR ARE NO NOT I NFR FRII NGED.

6

I N THE CON CONTEXT OF THE SECO SECOND AMENDM ENDMENT AND I N THE

7

CONTEXT TEXT OF OF THE FI FI RST AMEND ENDMENT, ENT, I N THE CONTEXT TEXT OF OF ABORTI ON

8

RI GHTS, AND THER THERE E ARE ARE OTH OTHER ER I SSUES, SSUES, STRI STRI CT SCR SCRUTI NY I S NO NOT

9

ALW ALWAYS THE THE STAND STANDARD.

WI TH RESPECT RESPECT TO SOM SOME CO CONSTI STI TUTI ONAL

10

RI GHTS, A LO L OWER STAND STANDARD ARD OF SCRU SCRUTI NY I S AFF AF FORDED, ED, AND AND THE THE

11

COURTS WI L L NOT TAKE A DEEP DEEP DI DI VE I N REEVAL REEVAL UATI NG THE THE EVI DENCE ENCE

12

AND AND WI L L NOT SUBJ SUBJ ECT ECT THE THE PEOPL PEOPLE' E' S DEC DECII SI ON TO A MI CROSCOPI C

13

EVAL EVAL UATI ON, AND AND THAT THAT I S THE CASE CASE WI TH RESPECT RESPECT TO L ARG ARGE CAPAC CAPACII TY

14

MAGAZI AGAZI NES UND UNDER THE SECO SECOND ND AMENDM ENDMENT. ENT.

11: 07: 10 15

THE REASON REASON WHY THE KOL KOL BE

COURT CO URT AND THE WORMAN CO COURT WI TH J UDGE YO Y OUN UNG G SAI SAI D THAT THESE THESE

16

I SSUES SSUES ARE ARE MATTERS OF OF PU P UBLI C DEBATE, AND AND THERE THERE I S A VI GOROUS

17

DEBATE HAPP HAPPEN ENII NG OUTSI TSI DE THI S COURTHO RTHOUSE, AS YOU YOUR HO HONOR I S

18

AWARE.

19

 THE  THE COURT:

YOU YO U' LL CONCEDE, COUNSEL, SEL, WON' T YO YOU U, THA THAT

20

A LOT LOT OF OF THE THE DEBA DEBATE TE I S BEI NG DRI VEN BY THE THE FAC F ACT T THAT, THAT, OF

21

COURSE, ANY ANY TI ME ONE OF THESE SHO SHOOTI NGS OCCUR, I T' S TRAG TRAGI C.

22 23 24 25

 TRA  TRAGI C. MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

ABSOLUTELY. LUTELY.

YOU YO U' D LI KEW KEWI SE CONCEDE THA THAT

UNFORTUN RTUNATEL Y, AND AND PERH PERHAPS APS UND UNDERSTAN ERSTAND DABLY, ABLY , THERE' S A L OT OF OF

39

11: 07: 53

1

EMOTI ON THAT' THAT' S DRI DRI VEN AND AND CR CREATED EATED AS AS A RESUL RESUL T OF THESE THESE TRAGI C

2

EVEN EVENTS; TS; RI GHT?

3

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

I WOUL D CONCEDE CEDE THAT THAT PUBL PUBLII C MASS

4

SHO SHOOTI NGS ARE TERRI TERRI BLY TRAU TRAUMATI C NO NOT J UST FO F OR THE THE VI CTI MS BUT BUT

5

FOR THE COMMUNI TI ES AND AND PEO PEOPL E ALL AL L OVER THE COUNTRY GI VEN THE THE

6

MEDI EDI A ATTENTI ON THAT THAT TH THEY ENG ENGEND ENDER.

7

 THE  THE COURT:

BUT STATI STATI STI CALLY, LL Y, YO YOU U' D AGREE THA THAT I N

8

PROPO PROPORTI RTI ON TO ALL OF THE THE OTH OTHER ER CAU CAUSES FO F OR PEOPL PEOPLE E DYI DYI NG, RI GHT

9

- - SO FOR EXAM EXAMPLE, PL E, PEOPL PEOPLE E WHO ARE ARE KI L L ED AS A RESU RESUL LT O OF F DRUN RUNK

10 11 12 13 14 11: 08: 42 15 16 17

DRI VERS ERS - MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

OR FO FOR R J UST DRI VI NG.

WELL, J UST DRUNK DRI VI NG, FO FOR R EXA EXAMPLE,

 THA  THAT THE THE NUMBER I S QUI TE SMALL STATI STATI STI CALLY; LL Y; RI GHT? MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

YES. YES.

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:  THE  THE COURT:

UH- HUH.

YES, YO YOU UR HONOR.

AND I N FACT, FACT, THE THE SAM SAME WOULD BE TRU TRUE WI TH

18

REGARD ARDS TO AL AL L GUN VI OL ENCE, ENCE, I F YO YOU U TAKE THE PROPORTI PORTI ON

19

STATI STI CAL CAL L Y OF OF TH T HE NU NUMBER OF PEO P EOPL PLE E WHO ARE ARE ACTUA ACTUAL L L Y KI L L ED

20

OR I NJ URED AS A RESUL RESUL T OF OF TH T HESE, QUOTE, L ARG ARGE CAPAC CAPACII TY

21

MAGAZI NES, ES, THEY' THEY' RE REA REALL LLY Y STA STATI TI STI CALLY LL Y I NSI GNI FI CANT WI TH

22

REGARD REGARDS TO TO ALL ALL THE OTHER OTHER PEOPL PEOPL E WHO ARE KI L L ED AND AND I NJ URED AS A

23

RESUL RESUL T OF GUNS.

24 25

AGREED AGREED? ?

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

I WOUL D NOT CH CHARAC ARACTERI TERI ZE I T AS AS

STA STATI STI STI CALLY LL Y I NSI GNI FI CANT.

THEY THEY ARE RELATI ELATI VELY RARE EVEN EVENTS TS,,

40

11: 09: 16

1

 THE  THE PUB PUBLI C MASS SHO SHOOTI NGS, OR GUN VI OLENC LENCE I N GENER ENERA AL.

2

 THE  THE COURT:

I ' VE LOO LOOKED KED AT THE THE EVI EVI DENC ENCE.

I SEE SEE A

3

VERY, VERY, VERY SMALL AL L NUMBER COM COMPARED TO THE TO T OTAL NUMBER OF GUN

4

DEATHS, EATHS, AS I READ READ AND AND I L OOK.

5

WEAPO EAPON NS, REVO EVOLVERS, LVERS, FO FOR R EXA EXAMPLE. PL E.

6

VERY, VERY, VERY VERY SMALL .

7

WANTS ANTS TO T O SEE CHI CHI L DREN, REN, YO YOU U KN KNO OW, KI L L ED AND AND MASSACRED ASSACRED,, RI GHT?

8

WHO WANT ANTS TO SEE SEE L AW ENFO ENFORCEMENT SHOT?

9

11 12

 THE  THE COURT:

11: 10: 20 15 16

RI GHT?

ABSOLUTELY. LUTELY.

 YOU  YOU? MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

I F BY BY "TH " THE E PROBL EM" THE THE COURT I S

REFERRI REFERRI NG TO GUN VI OL ENCE ENCE I N GENERAL ENERAL,, I S TH THAT WHAT YO YOUR HO HONOR I S REFERR REFERRII NG TO TO? ?  THE  THE COURT:

YES. YES.

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

18

BAN BANNI NG L ARG ARGE CAPAC CAPACII TY -  THE  THE COURT:

20

OBJ ECTI ECTI VE. VE.

21

SHO SHOOTI NGS.

22

NOBOD BODY DOES. ES.

BUT THE THE PRO PROBLEM I S - - BUT YO YOU U' RE NOT

17

19

SO I T' S REALL EALL Y STATI STATI STI CALL Y

REALL EALL Y SOLVI SOLVI NG THE THE PROBLEM BY ENA ENACTI NG THI THI S LEG L EGII SLATI ON, ARE

13 14

PEOPL PEOPLE E KI L L ED WI TH OTHER THER

BUT BUT WHAT DRI VES, UNDERSTAND ERSTANDABL ABL Y, I S THAT THAT WHO

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

10

HUGE.

FI NE.

THAT' THAT' S NOT THE THE PRI MARY ARY OBJ ECTI ECTI VE OF

LET ME GET TO THE THE SECO SECONDARY

THE THE SECO SECONDARY ARY OBJ ECTI ECTI VE I S TO STOP STOP MASS ASS

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

THA THAT' S PAR PART OF I T.

I T' S TO ALSO

23

MI TI GATE TH THE LETHA L ETHAL L I TY OF PUBL PUBL I C MASS SHO SHOOTI NGS WHEN THEY DO DO

24

OCC CCU UR AND TO ALSO ALSO MI TI GATE TH THE LETHA L ETHAL L I TY OF GUN VI OL ENCE ENCE

25

AGAI AGAI NST L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT BECAUSE BECAUSE OF THE PARTI CUL CUL ARLY DANG ANGEROU EROUS

41

11: 10: 51

1

NATURE ATURE OF L ARG ARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AZI NES.

2 3 4

 THE  THE COURT:

BUT I READ EAD YO YOU UR EXPER EXPERT' T' S DECLAR ECLARA ATI ONS,

AND I DON' T REAL REAL L Y SEE ANYTH ANYTHII NG I N THER THERE E THAT THAT I NDI CATES THAT, THAT,  YOU  YOU KNOW, POLI POLI CE DEPAR EPARTMENTS ENTS ARE UNDER CONSTAN STANT THR THREATEN EATENED ED

5

ATTAC ATTACK BY MASS ASS SHO SHOOTI NGS.

6

OF OTHER THER THI THI NGS HAPPEN. APPEN.

7

WHERE THERE' THERE' S SOM SOME I NCR CRED EDII BLE, YO YOU U KN KNO OW, UP- TI CK I N THE NU NUMBER

8

OF PO P OL I CE OFFI CERS CERS THAT THAT ARE ARE BEI NG ASSAUL ASSAUL TED BY THESE THESE WEAPON EAPONS.

9

CAN YOU REFER REF ER ME TO SOM SOMETH ETHI NG I N YOU YOUR EVI DENCE ENCE THAT SH SHOWS?

10

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

YES, I T DOES HAPPEN. APPEN.

J UST L I KE L OTS

BUT BUT I DI DN' T SEE ANYTH ANYTHII NG I N THERE THERE

ABSO ABSOL L UTELY, TEL Y, YO YOU UR HONOR.

WHI L E THE THE

11

NUMBERS MAY BE RELATI REL ATI VELY VEL Y SM SMALL ALL I N TERM TERMS OF OF GUN VI OL ENCE ENCE

12

AGAI NST LAW L AW ENFO ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT PERSON PERSONNEL, EL , DR. KOPER I N HI S EXPERT

13

REPORT REPORT THAT THAT TH THE ATTO ATTORN RNEY EY GEN GENERAL ERAL HAS SUBM SUBMI TTED TT ED EXPL AI NS HO HOW 41

14

PERCENT OF CRI ME GUN GUNS TH THAT WERE USED I N MURD URDERS OF L AW

11: 11: 46 15 16 17

ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT HAD L ARGE CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES AND AND THAT THAT I S UND UNDI SPU SPUTED TED EVI EVI DENC ENCE.

THE THE PLAI NTI FF FFS S DO NOT DI DI SPUTE SPUTE THE THE EXPER EXPERT T OPI NI ONS OR

 THE  THE EVI EVI DENC ENCE UNDERLYI ERLYI NG THO THOSE OPI NI ONS THA THAT LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY

18

MAGAZI AGAZI NES ARE USED DI SPRO SPROPORTI PORTI ONATELY ATEL Y I N THE MURDER OF OF L AW

19

ENFO ENFORC RCEM EMENT. ENT.

20

AND AND EVEN I F - -

 THE  THE COURT:

SO LET ME TELL YO YOU U WHAT I DI D NOT SEE; SEE;

21

AND AND THAT THAT I S, THAT THAT I F THE THE SI ZE OF OF THE THE MAGAZI AZI NE WAS REDU REDUCED FROM

22

17 TO T O 10 TH T HE ASSAU ASSAUL L TS ON OFFI CERS BY WEAPO EAPONS TH THAT USE MAGAZI AGAZI NES

23

WOUL D BE ANY ANY LES L ESS. S.

24 25

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

THE STATE STATE DOES NO NOT HAVE HAVE TO PRESEN PRESENT T

EVI DENCE ENCE TH THAT WOUL D PROVE TH THAT A LARG L ARGE CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NE BAN

42

11: 12: 50

1

L I KE THE ON ONE CALI FORN RNII A HAS HAS ENACTED ENACTED WOUL D I N FACT ACT REDU REDUCE THE THE

2

NUMBERS OF OF DEATH EATHS OF OF L AW ENFORCEM ENFORCEMENT BECAUSE BECAUSE I NTERM TERMEDI EDI ATE

3

SCR SCRUTI NY I S TH THE APPLI CABLE LEVEL LEVEL OF OF SCR SCRUTI NY.

4

SOM SOMETH ETHI NG THAT PL AI NTI FFS WOUL D HAVE TO T O CONCEDE CEDE UNDER FYOC F YOCK K AND

5

AS EVERY EVERY SI NGL E - - FO FOU UR CI CI RC RCU UI T COU COURTS AND NUMEROUS DI DI STRI CT

6

COURTS, I NCLUD LUDI NG THE THE EASTER EASTERN N DI STRI STRI CT OF OF CALI CALI FO FOR RNI A, THEY' THEY' VE

7

ALL CONCLUDED THAT THAT RESTRI RESTRI CTI ONS OF OF MAGAZI AZI NE CAPAC CAPACII TI ES ARE ARE

8

SUB SUBJ ECT ECT TO I NTERM TERMEDI EDI ATE SCR SCRUTI NY.

9

 THE  THE COURT:

FI NE.

I ' LL GRANT YO YOU U THA THAT.

10

STAND STANDARD ARD.

11

FI GURE OU OUT THI THI S REA REASO SONABLE FI F I T, RI GHT?

12 13 14 11: 13: 37 15

BUT BUT MY QUESTI ON TO YO YOU U I S - - FI NE.

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

AND THI THI S I S

THA THAT' S THE THE

SO WE HAVE AVE TO

RI GHT.

SO TELL ME WHY I T' S A REASO EASONABLE FI T.

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

SO WHEN I NTERMEDI EDI ATE SCRU SCRUTI NY

APPLI APPL I ES, THERE' THERE' S VARI VARI OUS RU RUL ES THI THI S CO COURT HAS HAS TO FO FOL L L OW AND AND ONE

16

OF THEM THEM I S THE SUBSTA SUBSTAN NTI AL DEFEREN DEFERENC CE THAT' THAT' S AFFO AFF ORDED TO THE THE

17

PREDI PREDI CTI VE J UDGMENTS ENTS OF THE THE LEGI LEGI SLATU SL ATURE. RE.

AND AND WI TH RESPECT RESPECT TO

18

 THE  THE POSS POSSES ESSI SI ON BAN THA THAT WAS ENA ENACTED I N 2016 2016 WI TH PRO PROPOSI POSI TI ON

19

63, SUBSTA SUBSTAN NTI AL DEFEREN DEFERENC CE TO THE THE PRED P REDI CTI VE J UDGMENTS ENTS OF OF THE THE

20

PEO PEOPL E I S ALSO ALSO DUE.

21 22 23 24 25

SO THE COURT HAS HAS TO L OOK AT AT THE EVI DENCE ENCE

 THA  THAT THE THE ATTOR TTORNEY GENER ENERA AL HAS PRES PRESEN ENTED TED.  THE  THE COURT:

WHI CH I S?

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

A SUB SUBSTANTI AL PORTI ON OF THE THE PI L E OF

DOCUMENTS ENTS ON ON YO YOU UR HO HONOR' S DESK, DESK, I ' M SURE. SURE.  THE  THE COURT:

BUT THEY THEY BASI CALLY LL Y ALL SAY SAY THE THE SAM SAME

43

11: 14: 09

1 2 3

 THI  THI NG, COUNSEL. SEL.

I READ EAD THEM THEM OVER AND OVER AGAI N, AND THEY THEY ALL

BASI CAL CAL L Y SAY THE THE SAME THI THI NG.

THEY SAY THE THE MORE ROUNDS THAT THAT

 YOU  YOU CAN FI RE THR THROUGH A GUN, THE THE MORE LI KELY KELY I T I S THA THAT PEOPLE

4

ARE ARE GOI NG TO BE I NJ URED AND AND ARE ARE GO GOI NG TO BE KI L L ED. ED.

5

HAVE TO HAVE HAVE AN EXPERT EXPERT - - YO YOU U GI VE ME 20 20 EXPERT EXPERTS S WHO SAY THE

6

SAM SAME THI THI NG, AND I SAY SAY TO YO YOU U, YO YOU U' RE J UST NEED NEEDLESSLY KI LL I NG

7

 TREE  TREES S TO CREATE EATE PAPER PAPER..

8

 YOU  YOU KNOW THA THAT.

9 10 11 12

OF COURSE, YO YOU U KNOW THA THAT.

WE ALL KNOW THA THAT.

GUNS ARE DAN DANG GEROU EROUS.

I KN KNO OW THA THAT.

J UST LI KE WE ALL KN KNO OW THA THAT

YOU AGREE AGREE TH THAT GU GUNS I S A DANG ANGEROUS EROUS THI THI NG.

RI GHT? MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

ABSOLUTELY. LUTELY.

BUT GUESS ESS WHAT?

13

L OTS OF PEOPL PEOPLE E USE THEM THEM.

14

SECO SECOND AMENDM ENDMENT.

11: 14: 59 15

YOU YO U DON' T

LOTS LOTS OF PEOPLE OWN THEM THEM.

I N FACT, THEY' THEY' RE PROTECTED BY THE THE

SO THE QUESTI UESTI ON BECOM BECOMES: ES:

WHAT I S A REASONABL ABL E FI T?

HOW DO WE DECI DE

HOW DO WE DECI DE THAT? THAT?

YOU YO U SAY I

16

HAVE AVE TO GI VE SUB SUBSTANTI AL DEFERENC EFERENCE TO THE THE L EGI EGI SLATUR SLATURE.

17

I ' LL GI VE THEM THEM SUB SUBSTA STANTI AL DEFE DEFER RENC ENCE, BUT I ' M NOT GI GI VI NG THEM THEM

18

ALL DEFERENC EFERENCE.

19

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

ABSO ABSOL L UTELY TEL Y NOT.

FI NE.

THAT THAT WOUL D BE

20

RATI ONAL BAS BASII S, AND THI THI S I S NOT RA RATI ONAL BA BASI S.

21

I NTERM TERMEDI EDI ATE SCRUTI SCRUTI NY, THE GO GOVERNM VERNMENT ENT HAS THE THE BURD BURDEN OF

22

DEFEN EF END DI NG THE L AW.

23

HAVE ANY ANY ROL ROL E I N TRYI NG TO HELP EL P THE GO GOVERNM VERNMENT ENT I N DEFEND EF ENDI NG THE

24

LAW, UNLI KE I N RATI ONAL BASI S SCR SCRUTI NY.

25

NOT THE THE PLAI PL AI NTI FF.

UNDER

AND AND THE THE COURT WOUL DN' T

BUT BUT UNDER I NTERM TERMEDI EDI ATE SCRUTI SCRUTI NY, THE CO COURT LO L OOKS TO

44

11: 15: 36

1

ENSU ENSUR RE THAT THAT THER THERE E I S SUB SUBSTANTI AL EVI DENC ENCE J USTI FYI NG THE THE LAW

2

AND AND THAT THAT ON ON THE THE BASI BASI S OF OF THAT THAT SUBSTAN SUBSTANTI TI AL EVI EVI DENCE, ENCE, THAT THAT TH THE

3

PEOPL PEOPLE E HAVE AVE MADE RATI RATI ONAL I NFERENCES ERENCES FROM THAT THAT EVI DENCE. ENCE.

4

AND AND

 THE  THE EVI EVI DENC ENCE THA THAT WE HAVE PRES PRESEN ENTED TED TO YO YOU UR HONOR WI TH THE THE

5

DECLARATI ECLARATI ON OF L UCY ALL EN, EN, THE THE DECLARA DECLARATI TI ON OF PROF PROFESSOR ESSOR

6

DONOHUE, THE DECL DECLARATI ARATI ON OF CHRI CHRI STO STOPHER KOP KOPER, AND AND THE NUM NUMEROU EROUS

7

EMPI RI CAL CAL STU STUDI ES AND AND ARTI CLES CLES SHOWI NG THAT THAT NO NOT ON ONL Y DO DO L ARGE

8

CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES EN ENABLE SHO SHOOTERS TERS TO FI RE MORE ROUNDS I N A

9

GI VEN PERI PERI OD OF TI ME, BUT THEY' THEY' RE USED USED - - THEY' THEY' RE PREV PREVA ALENT LENT

10

PUBLI PUBLI C MASS SHO SHOOTI NGS, AS LUC LUCY ALL AL L EN' EN' S EXPERT EXPERT REPORT REPORT SETS

11

FOR FO RTH. TH.

12

 THE  THE COURT:

I LOO LOOKED KED AT SOME OF THA THAT.

SO FO FOR R

13

EXAMPLE PL E - - BY THE THE WAY, L ET ME POI POI NT OU OUT THAT THAT I N MY ORD ORDER THAT THAT I

14

PREV PREVII OUSLY I SSUED SSUED GRANTI NG THE THE PRELI PRELI MI NARY I NJ UNCTI ON WAS - - I

11: 16: 39 15

DI DN' T SEE ANYT ANYTH HI NG I N YO YOU UR STACK OF OF DOCUM CUMENTS ENTS THAT THAT REFU REFUTED TED MY

16

SPECI SPECI FI C FACT FI F I NDI NG AS TO SOM SOME OF OF THE THE MASS SHO SHOOTI NGS TH T HAT HAD HAD

17

BEEN ALL ALL UDED TO I N AT LEAST L EAST ONE OF OF THE REPO REPORTS THAT WAS

18

SUBM SUBMI TTED. TTED.

19

GET- GO WAS THAT THAT I N THESE THESE MASS MASS SHO SHOOTI NGS VERY OF OFTEN - - AND AND I

20

I T WOUL D SEEM TO BE PRETTY CL CL EAR TO ME FROM THE THE

 THI  THI NK I T' S EVEN EVEN SUPPO SUPPOR RTED BY A LOT LOT OF THI THI S THA THAT YO YOU U HAVE HERE ERE

21

- - THERE WERE WEAPO EAP ONS TH T HAT WERE USED THAT WERE NOT HI GH

22

CAPACI APACI TY MAGAZI AZI NES.

23 24 25

SHO SHOTGU TGUNS, F OR EXAM EXAMPLE. PL E.

I N MANY ANY OF THEM THEM,

 THEY  THEY USE MACHI NE GUNS OR FULL FULLY Y AUTO TOM MATI C WEAPO EAPON NS. MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

THAT' THAT' S CORRECT. RRECT.

RI GHT?

AND AND THO THOSE ARE ARE OFTEN

I N CONJ UNCTI ON WI TH L ARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES WHI CH MAKE THE

45

11: 17: 42

1

ASSAUL ASSAULT T WEAPO EAP ONS EVEN EVEN MORE DEADL DEADLY Y.

2 3

 THE  THE COURT:

WELL - - SO DEFI NE FO FOR R ME AN ASSA SSAULT

WEAPO EAP ON.

4

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

5

MULTI PLE PL E CATE CATEG GORI ES AN AND DEFI NI TI ONS.

6

 THE  THE COURT:

THE THE CALI FO FORN RNI A PENAL PENAL CO CODE HAS

I KNOW.

I KNOW.

BUT YO YOU U KN KNO OW WHAT?

AS

7

I SAI D TO YO YOU UR CO COL L EAGUE WHEN SHE SHE WAS HERE, HERE, I ' VE TRI ED READ READI NG.

8

I ' VE TRI TRI ED READ EADI NG.

9

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

10 11 12

 THE  THE COURT:

AND I GUARANTEE YO YOU U THA THAT I F I WANTED TO

 TRI  TRI P YO YOU U UP TO TOD DAY, I COULD PRO PROBABLY DO I T, EVEN EVEN THO THOUGH YO YOU U' RE AN EXPERT EXPERT I N THE THE FI ELD EL D.

13 14

I UNDERSTAN ERSTAND.

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

I GUARAN ARANTEE TEE THAT THAT YOU DON' T KNO KNOW. I WOUL DN' T SAY SAY EXPERT, EXPERT, BUT BUT YOU YOU CAN

ASK AN ANY QU QUESTI ESTI ON THAT THAT YOU YOU L I KE OF OF ME.

11: 18: 20 15

 THE  THE COURT:

16

SO DEFI NE FO FOR R ME AN ASSA SSAULT WEAPO EAPON N.

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

SO WI TH RESPECT RESPECT TO - - THE THE STATE OF

17

CALI FO FOR RNI A HAS HAS AC ACTED I NCREMENTALL ENTALLY Y I N PROHI BI TI NG VER VERY

18

DANG ANGEROUS ASSAUL ASSAUL T RI FL ES.

19

 THE  THE COURT:

20 21 22 23

WHAT I S AN ASSA SSAULT RI FLE? FL E?

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

I ' M GETTI NG TO THAT THAT ANSWER, ER, YO YOU UR

HONOR.  THE  THE COURT:

I ' M SORRY.

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

THE THE STATE STATE I S AL AL L OWED TO ACT ACT

24

I NCREMENTAL ENTALL L Y I N ADDRESSI NG I SSUES SSUES OF PUBL PUBL I C CONCERN.

SO THE THE

25

STATE STATE FI F I RST HAD HAD DI FFERENT ERENT ROST ROSTERS ERS OF OF FI REARM REARMS BY MAKE AND AND MODEL

46

11: 18: 50

1

AND BANNED BANNED THOSE. SE.

2

COPI ES OR OR CHANG ANGI NG THEM AND AND MAKI NG MI NOR TWEAKS TO TO THEI R

3

DESI GNS TO TO GET OUT OF OF THE THE BAN, BAN, THE STATE OF OF CAL CAL I FORN RNII A ENAC ENACTED TED

4

AND WHEN GUN MANUF ANUFACTURERS ACTURERS ST STARTED ARTED MAKI NG

 THE  THE CATEGORY THR THREE BAN WHI CH DEFI NES AN ASSA SSAULT WEAPO EAPON N ON THE THE

5

BASI BASI S OF CERTA CERTAII N CHARAC ARACTERI TERI STI CS OR FEATURES. FEATURES.

6

PREREQ PREREQU UI SI TE TO T O QUALI FY AS AN AN ASSAU ASSAUL T WEAPON EAPON I S FO F OR THE THE FI F I REARM REARM

7 8

 TO HAVE THE THE CAPAB PABI LI TY TO ACCEPT A DETAC ETACHABLE MAGAZI NE AND I F I T HAS - -

9

 THE  THE COURT:

10

UNDERSTAN ERSTAND WHAT YO YOU U' RE SAYI NG.

11 12

SO ANY WEAPO EAPON N - - LET ME SEE SEE I F I SO SAY, FO FOR R EXAM EXAMPLE, PL E, A MI NI - 14

 THA  THAT HAS A DETAC ETACHABLE MAGAZI NE THA THAT HOLDS LDS 7 ROUNDS.

THA THAT' S AN

ASSAUL ASSAUL T WEAPON EAPON OR ASSAUL ASSAUL T RI FL E?

13

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

14

 THE  THE COURT:

11: 19: 39 15 16

SO THE THE

NO.

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

NOT NECESSAR ECESSARII L Y, YO YOU UR HONOR. OKAY. KAY. SO THE THE FEATUREFEATURE- BASED BASED TEST REQ REQU UI RES

 THA  THAT THE THE FI REAR EARM NOT HAVE A FI XED MAGAZI NE.

SO I F I T CAN

17

ACC ACCEPT A DETACH ETACHABL ABL E MAGAZI AZI NE, THAT' THAT' S THE THE FI RST STEP.

18

WOUL D L OOK AT A MENU ENU OF OTHER FEATU FEATURES, AND AND I F THE FI REARM HAS

19

ONE OF OF THOSE OTHER OTHER FEATURES EATURES I N ADD ADDI TI ON TO ACCEPT ACCEPTII NG A

20

DETAC ETACH HABLE MAG MAGAZI AZI NE, THEN I T WOUL D QUALI ALI FY AS AN ASSAUL ASSAUL T

21

WEAPON EAPON.

22

THOSE AD ADDI TI ONAL FEATURES FEATURES WOUL D BE FL ASH SUPPRESSO SUPPRESSORS, RS,

 TELESC  TELESCOPI C STOCKS, KS, PI STOL GRI P, TWO PI STOL GRI PS; THER THERE E MAY BE

23

OTHER THER FEATUR FEATURES.

24

MORN RNII NG.

25

THEN THEN YO YOU U

I DI DN' T READ EAD THE THE ASSA ASSAU UL T RI FLE FL E BAN THI THI S

 THE  THE COURT:

FLA FL ASH SUPPR SUPPRES ESSO SORS.

47

11: 20: 22

1 2 3 4

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

GRENA ENADE THR THROWERS. ERS.

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:  THE  THE COURT:

YES. YES.

GRENADE.

OF COURSE, SE, EVER EVERYB YBO ODY - - I ' M SUR SURE THA THAT ALL

5

OF THE THE PL AI NTI FFS PROBA PROBABLY BLY HAVE AVE SOM SOME WEAPON EAPON THAT THAT POSSESS POSSESSES ES A - -

6

HAS A GRENAD GRENADE E TH THRO ROW WER, RI GHT?

7 8 9

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

I WOUL D MAKE NO REPRESEN REPRESENTAT TATII ON ABOUT

 THA  THAT, YO YOU UR HONOR.  THE  THE COURT:

OF COURSE YO YOU U WOULDN LDN' T BECA ECAUSE I T WOULD

10

BE FOOL I SH. SH.

NOBODY HAS THAT THAT KI ND OF A WEAPON EAPON.

11

EVENT, EVENT, GETTI NG BAC BACK TO MY PO P OI NT - - I WAS TRYI TRYI NG TO L EAD YO YOU U

12

DOWN THI S - -

13

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

14

L ARG ARGE CAPA CAPAC CI TY MAGAZI AZI NES.

11: 20: 58 15

BUT BUT I N ANY ANY

I ' M FI GURI NG OUT HOW TO GET BACK TO BUT I ' D L I KE TO NOTE, YO YOU UR HONOR,

 THA  THAT THE THE CALI FO FOR RNI A RI FLE FL E AND PI STOL ASSO SSOCI ATI ON, WHI CH I S THE THE

16

I NSTI TUTI TUTI ONAL PLA PL AI NTI FF I N THI THI S CA CASE, THEY THEY HAVE CH CHALL ENG ENGED

17

CALI FO FORN RNI A' S ASSAU ASSAUL T WEAPON EAPONS BAN BAN,, AND AND THAT THAT CASE CASE I S RU RUPP, PP ,

18

R- U- P- P, VERSU ERSUS S BEC BECER ERR RA, AND I T' S CU CURRENTLY ENTLY PEND PENDI NG I N THE THE

19

CENTR ENTRA AL DI DI STRI STRI CT OF CA CALI FO FOR RNI A.

20

STATO STATON N GRANTE RANTED D THE ATTO ATTORN RNEY EY GENERAL ENERAL'' S MOTI ON TO DI SMI SS AND AND

21

DENI ENI ED A MOTI ON FOR PRELI PREL I MI NARY ARY I NJ UNCTI ON BRO BROUGHT BY THE THE CRPA, CRPA,

22

AND AND I T DI DI D SO ON - - I N EVAL EVAL UATI NG VERY VERY SI MI L AR ARG ARGUMENTS ENTS THAT THAT

23

ARE BEI NG PRESENTED TO YO YOU UR HO HONOR I N THI S CASE CHAL CHALL L ENGI NG THE

24

L ARG ARGE CAPAC CAPACII TY MAGAZI AZI NES BAN. BAN.

25

AND J UST YESTER YESTERDAY, J UDGE

 J UDGE STATO STATON N DETER ETERMI NED THA THAT ASSA SSAULT WEAPO EAPON NS, EVEN EVEN

48

11: 21: 41

1 2

ASSUM ASSUMI NG THAT THEY ARE PRO PROT TECTED ECTED BY BY TH T HE SECO SECON ND AMENDM ENDMENT,  THA  THAT' S STEP STEP ONE OF THE THE ANALYSI S, I NTERM TERMEDI ATE SCR SCRUTI NY APPLI ES

3

AND AND THE EVI EVI DENCE ENCE SU SUBMI TTED TT ED BY BY THE ATTOR ATTORN NEY GENERAL DEMONSTRATED STRATED

4

 THA  THAT THER THERE' E' S NO LI KELI KELI HOOD OF SUC SUCCESS ESS ON THE THE MERI ERI TS OF THE THE CRPA

5

PREVAI L I NG ON THEI THEI R SECOND AMEND ENDMENT ENT CLAI M AND AND J UDGE STATO S TATON N

6

ALSO DI SMI SSED WI TH PREJ PREJ UDI CE THE THE CR CRPA' S TAKI TAKI NG CLAI M AND

7

SUBSTA SUBSTAN NTI VE DUE PRO PROCESS CL CL AI M TO THE THE ASSAU ASSAUL L T WEAPON EAPONS BAN BAN..

I

8

 THI  THI NK J UDGE STATO STATON N' S WELL- REASO EASONED ORDER PRO PROVI DES ADDI TI ONAL

9

SUPP SUPPO ORT FOR FOR THE THE ATTORN ATTORNEY GEN GENERA ERAL L ' S PO P OSI TI ON THAT THAT EVEN I F THE THE

10

SECON SECOND AMENDMENT ENT PRO P ROTECTS TECTS SOM SOME MAGAZI AGAZI NE CAPACI TY, TY , I N THI S

11

CASE - -

12

 THE  THE COURT:

13 14

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THA  THAT I T WOULD NOT.

11: 22: 32 15

 THE  THE COURT:

16

I T NOT NOT?

17

MAGAZI AGAZI NE?

18

WHY WOULDN LDN' T I T?

WHY WOULDN LDN' T I T?

WELL, I T' S NOT THE THE STATE' STATE' S POSI POSI TI ON

I T WOULD - I ' M TRO TROUBLED BY THA THAT ARGUMENT. ENT.

WHY WOULD

WHY WOULD ULD THE SECO SECOND ND AMENDM ENDMENT NOT NOT PRO P ROT TECT THE

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

THE THE STATE' STATE' S POSI POSI TI ON I S THA THAT THER THERE E

19

I S LI L I KELY KEL Y SECO S ECOND AMEND ENDMENT ENT PRO P ROTECTI TECTI ON TO MAGAZI AGAZI NES BECAUSE BECAUSE TH T HE

20

NI NTH CI CI RC RCU UI T I N J ACKSO ACKSON N MADE CLEAR CLEAR THAT THAT THERE THERE I S SOM SOME SECON SECOND

21

AMEND ENDMENT ENT PROTECTI TECTI ON TO AM AMMUNI TI ON, OTHERWI SE - -

22 23 24 25

 THE  THE COURT:

I THO THOUGHT THA THAT WAS THE THE CASE.

SO I

 THO  THOUGHT YO YOU U J UST TO TOLD LD ME THA THAT J UDGE STATO STATON N FO FOU UND THA THAT THER THERE E WAS NO SECO SECOND - MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

NO.

NO.

J UDGE STATON STATON ASSUM ASSUMED THAT THAT

49

11: 23: 09

1

 THER  THERE E I S SECO SECOND AMEND ENDMENT ENT PRO PROTECTI TECTI ON FO FOR R ASSA SSAULT WEAPO EAPON NS.

2

 THE  THE COURT:

3 4 5

I MI SUN SUNDERSTO ERSTOOD YO YOU U.

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

I APOLO POLOG GI ZE.

SO YO YOU UR HONOR, I N RUL RUL I NG ON THI THI S

MOTI ON FOR SUMMARY J UDGMENT, ENT, CAN CAN SKI P STEP STEP ONE AND AND AVOI D ALL ALL  THE  THE DEBA EBATE ABOUT COMMON USE AND MI LLER LL ER AND WHETHER ETHER SEC SECOND

6

AMEND ENDMENT ENT PRO P ROTECTI TECTI ON I S AFFO AFF ORDED TO L ARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES,

7

AND AND THE COUR COURT T CAN BYPASS BYP ASS THE LI L I NE I N HELL EL L ER TH THAT WAS QU QUOTED TED AND AND

8

RELI REL I ED UP UPON I N KOL BE AND I N WORMAN THAT WEAPO EAP ONS TH T HAT ARE MOST

9

SUI SUI TAB TABLE FOR FOR MI LI TAR TARY APPLI APPLI CATI ON LI KE M- 16S 16S AN AND SI MI LAR

10 11

WEAPO EAPONS MAY BE BANN BANNED. ED.

J UST REALL REAL L Y QU QUI CKLY CKLY YOU YOUR HONOR BECAUSE BECAUSE

 YOU  YOUR HONOR ASKED SKED THE THE PLAI NTI FFS WHERE ERE I N HELLER THE THE SUPR SUPREM EME

12

COURT SAI SAI D THAT, THAT, I ' D L I KE TO READ READ THAT THAT PORTI PORTI ON I NTO THE THE RECO RECORD

13

FOR YO Y OUR HONO HONOR.

14

 THE  THE COURT:

11: 23: 58 15 16 17

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A: DECI ECI SI ON.

19

 THE  THE COURT:

ALL RI GHT.

I T MAY BE OBJ ECTED ECTED - -

YES, YES, THA THAT' S EXA EXACTLY WHERE ERE I THO THOUGHT YO YOU U' D

THA THAT' S A RHETORI CAL DEVI EVI CE.

22

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

23

 THE  THE COURT:

24

 YOU  YOU' RE READ EADI NG FR FRO OM.

25

I T' S OKAY. KAY.

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

GO.

SO I ' M TRYI TRYI NG

I T MI GHT BE DI FFI CULT TO READ EAD.

 THE  THE COURT:

20

I T' S ON PAGE 627 OF THE THE HELL ER

I PRI PRI NTED OUT FO FOU UR PAG PAGES PER SHEE SHEET. T.

 TO SAV SAVE TREES TREES..

18

21

WOULD YO YOU U?

STRAW STRAW MAN. AN.

NO.

CAN I READ READ ON? I READ EAD I T.

I KNOW EXA EXACTLY WHERE ERE

THA THAT' S A RHETORI CAL DEVI EVI CE.

THEN HE KN KNO OCKED DOWN THE STRAW STRAW MAN. AN.

HE CREATED EATED A BUT BUT TELL EL L ME I N

50

11: 24: 30

1 2

 THER  THERE E SOMEWHERE ERE WHERE ERE THE THE OPI NI ON SAYS SAYS THA THAT MI LI TAR TARY WEAPO EAPON NS ARE NO NOT PRO P ROTECTED TECTED..

3

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

I T' S LATER LATER I N THA THAT PAR PARAGRAPH. PH.

4

DON' T VI VI EW THAT THAT AS A STRAW STRAW MAN.

5

READ EADI NG - -

6

 THE  THE COURT:

I

I DON' T KN KNOW WHY YOU' RE

BECA ECAUSE BASI CALLY LL Y WHAT HE WAS SAYI SAYI NG WAS

7

 YOU  YOU HAVE TO FI ND A WAY TO CONNECT ECT THE THE PREFA PREFATO TOR RY CLAUSE LAUSE TO THE THE

8

SUBSEQ SUBSEQU UENT ENT CLAU CL AUSE, SE, AND AND WHAT HE HE WAS SAYI NG WAS, OKAY, F I NE, SO

9

 YOU  YOU OBJ ECT ECT AND YO YOU U SAY SAY THA THAT THESE THESE WEAPO EAPON NS ARE OF MI LI TAR TARY USE, SE,

10

 THA  THAT THEY THEY HAVE TO BE OF MI LI TAR TARY USE BECA ECAUSE THE THE PREFA PREFATO TOR RY

11

CLAUSE LAUSE I S TALKI TALKI NG ABOUT A MI LI TI A; AND BECA ECAUSE I T' S TALKI TALKI NG

12

ABOUT A MI L I TI A, ONE MI GHT ARGU ARGUE TH THAT THE WEAPON EAPONS THAT ARE ARE

13

PROTE PROTECTED CTED ARE THOSE THAT THAT WOUL D BE USED BY MI L I TI A AND AND ARE

14 11: 25: 28 15

 THER  THEREFO EFOR RE OF MI LI TAR TARY TYPE.

BUT THEN THEN HE GOES ON TO SAY: SAY:

BUT

I T DO DOESN' ESN' T MATTER, I T DO DOESN' ESN' T MATTER BEC BECAU AUSE SE WHAT MATTERS I S

16

 THA  THAT I N MI LI TI A, THEY' THEY' RE CALLED LL ED UPON PON TO BRI NG WHATEVER TEVER WEAPO EAPON NS

17

 THEY  THEY HAD AND THA THAT I NCLUD LUDES WEAPO EAPON NS THA THAT WOULD NORMALLY LL Y BE USED SED

18

FOR THE THE DEF DEFENSE ENSE OF OF TH T HE HEARTH HEARTH AN AND THE HO HOME.

19

SAI D.

20 21 22

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

THAT' S WHAT HE HE

BUT BUT J USTI CE SCALI SCALI A WENT ENT ON TO SAY

 THA  THAT J UST BECA ECAUSE A WEAPO EAPON N MAY BE USEFU SEFUL L I N MI LI TI A SERV SERVI CE OR MI LI TAR TARY SER SERV VI CE, I T' S NOT NEC NECESS ESSA ARI LY PRO PROTECTED TECTED.

23

 THE  THE COURT:

THA THAT' S RI GHT.

THA THAT' S EXA EXACTLY WHAT HE

24

SAI D.

SO F OR EXAMPL E, WHAT HE HE WAS SAYI NG WAS J UST BECAUSE BECAUSE YOU YOU

25

MAY HAVE HAVE A BAZOOKA WHI CH WOUL D BE USEFU USEF UL FOR MI L I TARY PURPOSE RPOSES, S,

51

11: 26: 13

1

I T DOES NOT MEAN EAN I T' S PRO PROTECTED TECTED..

AND WHY?

2

DANG ANGEROUS.

3

NOT COM COMMONL Y PO P OSSESSED SSESSED BY LAW L AW- ABI ABI DI NG CI TI ZENS ZENS OR OR LAW LAW- ABI ABI DI NG

4

PURPO PURPOSES.

ALL GU GUNS ARE ARE DANG ANGEROUS.

RI GHT?

" A, " I T' S

AND AND " B, " I T' S UNUSUAL, SUAL, AND AND

THAT' THAT' S WHAT HE WAS SAYI NG.

HE WASN' ASN' T SAYI NG

5

 THA  THAT BECA ECAUSE SOMETHI ETHI NG WAS DESI ESI GNED FO FOR R MI LI TAR TARY PUR PURPOSE POSE I T

6

 THER  THEREFO EFOR RE BECO ECOMES UNPRO PROTECTED TECTED.

7

 TI MES. ES.

8

I ' VE READ EAD THA THAT MANY, MANY, MANY

AND YO YOU U KNOW, AGAI N, I ACKNOWLEDG LEDGE I DI DN' T GO TO

HARVARD ARVARD.

9

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

10

 THE  THE COURT:

I DI DN' T EI THER THER,, YO YOU UR HONOR.

I ' M NOT THE THE BRI GHTEST TEST LI GHT BULB I N THE THE

11

BUI L DI NG.

BUT I READ EAD THAT, THAT, AND I UNDERSTAN ERSTAND WHAT I T SAYS.

12

SAYS SI MPLY PL Y BECAU BECAUSE SE I T WAS DESI GNED FO FOR R MI L I TARY TARY USE USE DO DOESN' ESN' T

13

MEAN EAN THAT THAT I T' S PROTECTED TECTED..

14

AGAI N, I READ READ KOL BE, AND AND I READ READ ALL THESE THESE OTH OTHER ER

11: 27: 09 15

CASES, ASES, BUT I THI THI NK PERH PERHAPS THE THE BEST BEST - - SI NCE WE' RE ON ON THE THE

IT

16

SUBJ SUBJ ECT ECT - - WHO BEST TO TELL TEL L ME WHAT THEY THEY SAI D I N AN OPI NI ON

17

 THA  THAN THE THE PERSO PERSON WHO WROTE THE THE OPI NI ON OR THE THE COURT WHO WROTE

18

 THE  THE OPI NI ON.

19 20

DON' T YO YOU U AGREE? EE?

FOU FO URTH CI RCUI T.

KOLBE I S WONDERFU ERFUL. L.

BUT I T' S NOT THE THE SUPREM SUPREME COURT.

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

I T' S NOT THE THE SUPREM SUPREME COURT, AND I T' S

21

NOT BI NDI NG ON YO YOU UR HONOR, AS YOU YOUR HONOR I S AWARE.

22

I T' S PERSU PERSUA ASI VE AUTHO THORI TY.

23 24 25

I T' S A

 THE  THE COURT:

RI GHT.

HELP ME WI TH THI THI S, SI NCE YO YOU U BROUGHT UP

 THE  THE SUB SUBJ ECT. ECT. MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

SUR SURE.

52

11: 27: 48

1

 THE  THE COURT:

LET' S LOO LOOK LI KE AT CAETAN ETANO VERSU ERSUS S

2

MASSACHU ASSACHUSETTS SET TS..

3

COURT.

4

FI NALL Y, THE CO COURT USED USED A, QUOTE, A CO CONTEMPORA PORARY RY LEN L ENS, S, END END OF

5

QUOTE, TE, AND AND FOUND, QUOTE, TE, NOTHI NG I N THE RECORD TO SUG SUGGEST THAT, THAT,

6

BRAC BRACKETS, KETS, STUN GUNS, END END OF BRAC BRACKETS, KETS, ARE ARE READI L Y ADAPTABL ADAPTABLE E TO

7

USE I N THE THE MI LI TAR TARY.

8 9

12 13 14 11: 28: 54 15

THE SUPREME

THE THE SUPREM SUPREME COURT SAI D THE THE FO FOL L L OWI NG.

CI TATI TATI ON OMI TTED. TTED.

I T SAI D:

BUT HELLER ELL ER REJ ECTED ECTED

 THE  THE PRO PROPOSI POSI TI ON, QUOTE, THA THAT ONLY THO THOSE WEAPO EAPON NS USEFU SEFUL L IN WARFARE ARE PRO PROTECTED. TECTED.

10 11

THAT' THAT' S A SUPREME COURT CASE. CASE.

SO THE SUPREM SUPREME COU COURT SAYS SAYS,, WHAT WE SAI SAI D I N HELL EL L ER WAS  THA  THAT I T' S NOT J UST WEAPO EAPON NS THA THAT ARE USEFU SEFUL L I N WARFARE FARE THA THAT ARE PROTE PROTECTED CTED..

I T I NCLUDES CLUDES OTHER WEAPO EAPONS I NCLUDI CLUDI NG STU STUN GUNS, AND AND

 THA  THAT' S HOW CAETAN ETANO WAS DECI ECI DED. READ EADI NG THE THE LAW.

SO I MEAN EAN, LOO LOOK, I LI KE

I LOV LOVE READ EADI NG OPI NI ONS.

I LI KE TRYI TRYI NG TO

FI GURE OU OUT WHAT WAS I N THE THE PEO P EOP PL E' S MI NDS WHEN THEY WRO ROTE TE THE

16

OPI NI ONS.

17

COURT SAI D THAT THAT MI L I TARY STYL STY L E WEAPON EAPONS ARE FORB FORBII DDEN, EN, ARE ARE NO NOT

18

PROTE PROTECTED CTED BY THE SECON SECOND AMEND ENDMENT.

19

WHAT THEY SAI D WAS SO SOME WEAPO EAP ONS TH T HAT ARE USEF USEFUL PERHAPS BY TH T HE

20

MI L I TI A ARE ARE NOT PROTECTED. TECTED.

21

DI SAGREE SAGREE WI TH WHAT I J UST READ READ TO YO YOU U?

22 23 24 25

BUT BUT I J UST DON' T SEE THE THE ARG ARGUMENT ENT THAT THAT THE THE SUPREM SUPREME

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

THAT' THAT' S NO NOT WHAT THEY SAI D.

THAT' THAT' S WHAT THEY THEY SAI D.

DO YO YOU U

MY READ READII NG OF CAETAN CAETANO O I S THAT THAT THE THE

MASSACH ASSACHUSET USETT TS HI GH COURT URT COM COMMI TTED L EGAL ERRO ERROR BY CONCLUD CL UDI NG  THA  THAT STUN STUN GUNS - - PAR PARDON ME - - ARE NOT PRO PROTECTED TECTED BY THE THE SEC SECOND AMENDM ENDMENT.

53

11: 29: 39

1

 THE  THE COURT:

2

BECA ECAUSE? SE?

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

BECAU BECAUSE SE THEY THEY WERE NOT I N EXI STENCE STENCE

3

AT THE THE TI ME OF OF RATI FI CATI ON, AND THE THE SUPREM SUPREME COURT CLARI CLARI FI ED

4

 THA  THAT COMMON USE AT THE THE TI ME I S NOT REFERR EFERRI NG TO I N COMMON USE

5

I N 1789 1789 OR - -

6 7

 THE  THE COURT: ABO ABOUT.

8 9

THA THAT' S ONE OF THE THE I SSU SSUES THEY THEY TALKED TALKED

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

SURE. SURE.

BUT BUT THE MAI N REASON REASON WHY STU STUN

GUN UNS S ARE PROTECT ROTECTE ED BY THE SE SECO COND ND AMENDMENT AND AND WHY THE T HE

10

MASSACHU ASSACHUSETTS SET TS HI GH COURT COMMI TTED TT ED ERROR I S BECAU BECAUSE TH THEY' EY' RE I N

11

COMMON USE FOR SELF SEL F- DEFEN EF ENSE. SE.

12

 THE  THE COURT:

I UNDERSTA ERSTAN ND.

I GOT YO YOU U.

BUT I WAS

13

 TRYI  TRYI NG - - I WAS TRYI TRYI NG TO FI GURE OUT WHAT THA THAT LANG LANGUAGE SAYS SAYS

14

WHEN I T SAYS SAY S - - BECAU BECAUSE OBVI OBVI OUSLY SL Y WHEN THEY WROTE TH T HI S TH THEY

11: 30: 21 15

MUST HAVE MEANT TO SAY SOMETH ETHI NG, OTHERWI SE THEY WEREN' T GOI NG

16

 TO WASTE THE THE I NK AND THE THE PAPER PAPER..

17

 THE  THE PRO PROPOSI POSI TI ON THA THAT ONLY THO THOSE WEAPO EAPON NS USEFU SEFUL L I N WARFARE FARE ARE

18 19

I T SAI SAI D:

BUT HELLER REJ ECTED ECTED

PROTECTED. TECTED. NOW CORREC RRECT T ME I F I ' M WRONG, BUT BUT TH T HE WAY I READ READ THAT THAT

20

I S I T' S SAYI NG THAT THAT NO NOT ON ONL Y ARE WEAPON EAPONS USEF USEFU UL I N WARF ARFARE ARE

21

PROTE PROTECTED CTED,, BUT BUT THERE ARE OTHER OTHER WEAPON EAPONS L I KEWI SE PROTE PROTECTED CTED SUCH SUCH

22

AS STU STUN GUNS.

23

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

RI GHT.

THERE THERE ARE ARE OTHER WEAPON EAPONS THAT THAT

24

MAY NO NOT RELATE TO THE THE PREFATORY PREFATORY CL CL AUSE AUSE OF MI L I TI A SERVI SERVI CE;

25

RI GHT, YOUR YOUR HO HONOR?

54

11: 30: 57

1 2

 THE  THE COURT:

WE AGREE. EE.

SO THE THE POI POI NT I S THA THAT I THI THI NK

 THA  THAT HELLER DOES NOT SAY SAY - - ANYWHERE, ERE, ANYWHERE ERE I N HELLER ELL ER DOES

3

I T SAY SAY TH THAT BECAUSE BECAUSE A WEAPON EAPON MAY BE DESI DESI GNED TO BE LI L I KE A

4

MI L I TARYTARY- STYL E WEAPON EAPON THAT THAT I T' S NO NOT PRO P ROTECTED BY THE THE SECON SECOND

5

AMEND ENDMENT. ENT.

6 7

I T DOESN' ESN' T SAY THAT THAT AN ANYWHERE I N THERE. THERE. MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

SO I N CAETAN CAETANO O, THE THE CO COURT MADE CL CL EAR

 THA  THAT THE THE OPERA PERATI VE CLAUSE LAUSE OF THE THE SEC SECOND AMEND ENDMENT ENT EXTEN EXTEND DS TO

8

OTHER WEAPONS TH T HAT MAY NOT HAVE HAD HAD A RELATI REL ATI ON TO MI L I TI A

9

SERVI SERVI CE.

10

ARE USE USEFU FUL L I N MI LI TI A SER SERVI CE AR ARE ALSO ALSO - -

11 12 13 14 11: 31: 42 15 16

BUT BUT I T DO DOESN' ESN' T NEC NECESSAR ESSARII L Y MEAN THAT THAT AL AL L WEAPON EAPONS THAT THAT

 THE  THE COURT:  THA  THAT.

I ' LL GRANT YO YOU U THA THAT.

I ' LL GRANT YO YOU U

BUT MI LLER LL ER SAYS SAYS SOMETHI ETHI NG DI FFEREN FFERENT. T. MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

WELL, ELL , MI LL ER' ER' S HOLDI LDI NG I S ACTUA TUALL Y

COUCHED CHED I N NEGATI EGATI VE LAN L ANG GUAGE. AGE.  THE  THE COURT:

I KNOW.

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

WHERE THE SUPREME CO COURT SAI D THAT THAT

17

WEAPON EAPONS NO NOT SUI TABL TABL E FO F OR MI L I TI A SERVI SERVI CE ARE ARE NO NOT PRO P ROTECTED. TECTED.

18

BUT BUT TH T HE COROL L ARY ARY ARE NO NOT NECESSARI NECESSARI L Y TH T HE CASE, CASE, THAT THAT ALL AL L

19

WEAPO EAPONS TH THAT ARE USEFU USEF UL ARE PROT PROTECTED ECTED.

20 21 22 23 24 25

 THE  THE COURT:

I UNDERSTA ERSTAN ND.

LOO LOOK, THER THERE' E' S NOBODY HERE ERE

 THA  THAT' S GOI NG TO ARGUE, I NCLUD LUDI NG ME, THA THAT POSS POSSES ESSI SI ON OF A BAZO BAZOOKA OR A SHO SHOUL DER- FI RED MI SSI L E WHI CH WOUL D BE USEF USEFU UL I N  THE  THE MI LI TI A - MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

YES. YES.

PRES PRESEN ENT T DAY MI LI TI A SER SERVI CE, RI GHT? I T COULD BE USEFU SEFUL, L, BUT YO YOU U KNOW,

55

11: 32: 14

1

WHO I S GO GOI NG TO POSSI POSSI BLY - - NO, I ' M NOT GO GOI NG TO FI ND THA THAT, AND

2

I DON' T THI THI NK ANY ANY C CO OURT WOUL D AGREE. AGREE.

3

READ THE SECON SECOND AMEND ENDMENT, ENT, I T PROBAB PROBABL L Y COUL D.

4

COUL D CARR CARRY Y AROU AROUND A DI DI RTY BOM BOMB I N A SUI SUI TCASE I N TO TOD DAY' S DAY DAY

5

AND AND AGE, BUT BUT NOBODY I N THEI THEI R RI RI GHT MI ND I S GO GOI NG TO ARG ARGUE THAT. THAT.

6

BUT BUT TH T HAT TAKES US US TO THE THE BASI BASI C QUESTI ON, THE THE QU QUESTI ON THAT THAT I

7

ASKED AT TH THE VERY BEGI BEGI NNI NG, WHI CH I S HOW DO WE MAKE TH THE

8

DECI ECI SI ON, HOW DO WE DEC DECII DE WHAT THAT THAT REASO REASON NABL ABL E FI F I T I S?

9

ALTH ALT HOUGH, I F YOU YOU REAL REAL L Y I SUPPOSE YOU YOU

WE' VE AGREED AGREED THAT THAT MACHI NE GU GUNS, THEY' RE BANN BANNED, ED, AND AND

10

PROBABLY BABLY TH T HERE' S A REASO REASONABL ABL E FI T BETWEEN THE THE STATE' S I NTEREST

11

AND AND THE THE L EGI EGI SLATI SL ATI ON.

12

SECO COND ND AMENDMENT DOES NOT PRO ROT TECT MY HAVI NG A BAZO BAZOOKA OR HAND

13

GRENAD RENADE E OR SHO SHOUL DER- FI RED MI SSI L E.

14 11: 33: 28 15

18

WE' VE AGREED THAT THAT THE THE

BUT BUT WHAT ABO ABOUT THE THE REST REST OF OF

 THE  THE POTEN POTENTI TI AL WEAPO EAPON NS COVERED ERED BY THE THE SEC SECOND AMEND ENDMENT ENT LI KE THE THE ONES WE' RE ARGU ARGUI NG ABOUT HERE?

16 17

WE' VE AGREED. REED.

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

100 ROUND DRUM RUM MAGAZI NES, FOR

EXAM EXAMPLE. PL E.  THE  THE COURT:

WELL, EXA EXACTLY.

SO ONE COULD ARGUE THA THAT

19

I F I HAD THE THE POW POWER THAT THAT I COUL D SAY, OKAY, KAY, ANYTH ANYTHII NG OVER 30

20

ROUNDS, BANN BANNED. ED.

21

NOBODY DI DI ED AND AND MADE ME GO GOD - - KI NG YET. YET .

22

SO THE QU QUESTI EST I ON I S - - AND AND I ASKED YOU YOUR COL L EAGU EAGUE WHEN SHE SHE WAS

23

HERE AND AND I HOPE YOU YOU' L L BE ABLE ABLE TO ASK THE THE QUESTI ON FO FOR R ME.

24 25

ANYT ANYTH HI NG L ESS THAN THAN 30 RO ROUNDS, NOT BAN BANN NED. ED.

 THI  THI NK I T CUTS TO THE THE CHASE. SE.

BUT BUT

SO I CAN CAN' T DO DO THAT. THAT.

I

SO WE BAN MACHI NE GUNS - - BY THE THE

WAY, MANY ANY OF OF THE THE I NCI DENTS ENTS TH T HAT ARE REPO REPORTED RTED I N YO YOU UR EXPERT' S

56

11: 34: 21

1

EVI DENCE ENCE I NVOL VOL VED MACHI ACHI NE GU GUNS OR OR AUTOM AUTOMATI C WEAPO EAPONS, BY TH THE

2

WAY

3

- - SO WE BAN MACHI ACHI NE GUNS.

 TRA  TRANSFER OF ASSA SSAULT WEAPO EAPON NS.

WE' VE NOW BANN BANNED THE SALE SAL E AND AND

WE BANNED THE THE SALE SALE AND TRA TRANSFER

4

OF TH THESE ESE LARG LARGE E CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES. ES.

BUT BUT NO NOW WE CO COME ALO ALONG AND AND

5

WE SAY SAY NOT NOT ONL Y HAVE WE BANNED BANNED THE SALE SAL E OR OR TRANSFER, TRANSF ER, WE' RE

6

GOI NG TO CAUSE CAUSE PEO PEOPL PL E WHO ARE OTHERWI SE LAW L AW- ABI DI NG CI TI ZENS ZENS

7

WHO POSSES SSESS S TH T HESE ESE FO F OR WHATEVER ATEVER I NTEREST TEREST THEY MAY PO P OSSES SSESS S TH THEM,

8

WHETHER I T BE FO F OR SPORTI SPORTI NG OR FOR FOR SELF SEL F- DEFEN EF ENSE, SE, WE' RE GO GOI NG TO

9

CAUSE CAUSE YO YOU TO SURRENDER THESE. THESE.

EVEN EVEN THOUGH YOU' VE DONE NO NOTHI NG

10

WRONG, WE' RE GO GOI NG TO CAU CAUSE SE YOU TO SURREN SURREND DER TH THESE, ESE, OR YOU' YOU' RE

11

GOI NG TO BECO BECOME A CRI CRI MI NAL. AL.

12 13 14 11: 35: 19 15

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

THAT' THAT' S NOT WHAT THE THE L AW PROVI DES,

 YOU  YOUR HONOR.  THE  THE COURT:

WHAT DOES I T PRO PROVI DE?

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

SO WHEN THE THE PEOPL PEOPLE E OF C CALI ALI FORN RNII A

16

ENACTE ENACTED D PRO ROP POSI TI ON 63 TH T HEY CLO CLOSED SED A LO LOOPHOL E TH THAT MADE ADE

17

ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT OF THE THE EXI STI NG L ARG ARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AZI NE

18

RESTRI CTI ONS THAT YOU YOUR HO HONOR REF REFERRED ERRED TO MORE DI DI FFI CUL CUL T TO TO

19

ENFO ENFORC RCE E BECAU BECAUSE SE LAR L ARG GE CAPAC CAPACII TY MAGAZI AZI NES, UNL I KE FI REARM REARMS,

20

DON' T BEAR UNI QUE I DENTI ENTI FYI NG NUMBERS.

21

COMES ACR ACROSS A LAR L ARG GE CAPAC CAPACII TY MAGAZI AZI NE, I T' S VERY VERY DI DI FF FFII CUL T FO F OR

22 23 24 25

SO WHEN L AW ENFORC ENFORCEM EMENT ENT

 THEM  THEM TO DETER ETERMI NE THA THAT THI THI S LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY MAGAZI NE WAS NOT GRAND RANDFATHERED I N UNDER THE PRI OR L AW.

AND AND THE PEOP EOPL E CL CL OSED SED

 THA  THAT LOO LOOPHO PHOLE NOT TO J UST ENA ENABLE THE THE MORE EFFECTI EFFECTI VE ENFO ENFOR RCEMENT ENT OF THE EXI STI NG RESTRI RESTRI CTI ONS BU BUT BECAU BECAUSE SE LARGE CAPAC CAPACII TY

57

11: 36: 01

1

MAGAZI AGAZI NES CAN BE STOL STOL EN. EN.

2

EVI EVI DENC ENCE THAT THAT - -

3

 THE  THE COURT:

THE ATT ATTO ORN RNEY EY GEN GENERAL ERAL HAS HAS PRESEN PRESENTE TED D

DI D THEY THEY THI THI NK OF THA THAT - - DI DN' T THE THE

4

L EGI EGI SLATU SL ATURE RE THI THI NK ABO ABOUT TH THAT WHEN THEY THEY ORI ORI GI NALL Y PASSED P ASSED

5

L EGI EGI SLATI SL ATI ON BAN BANNI NG THE THE SALE, TRAN TRANSFER, OR WHAT?

6

ASLEEP ASLEEP AT TH T HE SWI TCH OR - -

7 8 9 10

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

DI D THEY THEY FALL

PRESUM PRESUMABL ABL Y, BUT BUT THE THE L EGI EGI SLATU SL ATURE RE

WASN' ASN' T REQU REQUI RED I N 2000 TO T O ENAC ENACT T A PERFECTL P ERFECTLY Y COM COMPREHEN PREHENSI SI VE LAW L AW.  THE  THE LEGI LEGI SLATU SLATURE I S ENTI ENTI TLED TO ACT I NCREMENTA ENTALL LLY Y AND TO EXPERI EXPERI MENT. ENT.

11

AND EXPERI EXPERI MENTATI ENTATI ON - -

 THE  THE COURT:

I NCREMENTA ENTALL LLY Y CAN ALSO DRI VE YO YOU U TO THE THE

12

POI NT WHERE YOU COMPL ETEL ETELY Y EXTI EXTI NGUI SHED OR DES DESTRO TROYE YED D THE SECO SECON ND

13

AMENDM ENDMENT.

14 11: 36: 55 15

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

I N THA THAT CA CASE, I F THE THE LEGI LEGI SLATUR SLATURE OR

 THE  THE PEOPLE WENT ENT TO TOO O FAR AND COMPLETELY EVI EVI SCER SCERA ATED A SECO SECOND

16

AMEND ENDMENT ENT PRO P ROTECTI TECTI ON, THEN THE CO COURT WOUL D STEP STEP I N, POSSI BLY BLY

17

UNDER HELL EL L ER, SAY THI THI S WAS A POL POL I CY CHOI CE OFF OFF THE THE TABL TABL E.

18 19 20

 THA  THAT' S NOT WHAT THE THE POSS POSSES ESSI SI ON BAN DI D.  THE  THE COURT:

DO YO YOU U SEE SEE - - WHEN I SAI SAI D I WANTED TO CUT

 TO THE THE CHASE, THA THAT' S WHERE ERE WE ARE.

THA THAT' S WHERE ERE WE ARE.

21

WHAT WOUL D J USTI STI FY THE THE CO COURT SAYI NG:

22

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

23 24 25

YOU YO U' VE GONE TOO TOO FAR?

THE COURT SHO SHOUL D NOT SAY THAT THAT WI TH

RESPECT RESPECT TO A L ARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NE BAN.  THE  THE COURT:

SO

I HEAR EAR YO YOU U.

NO COURT HAS.

I HEAR EAR YO YOU U.

ANSW ANSWERI NG MY QUESTI UESTI ON BECAUSE MY Q QUEST UESTII ON I S:

BUT YO YOU U' RE NOT WHEN AND HOW

58

11: 37: 38

1

WI L L THE COU COURT MAKE TH THE DECI DECI SI ON THAT TH THE STATE ST ATE HAS GO GONE TO TOO

2

FAR?

3 4

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

WHEN THE THE STATE STATE FAI L S TO PRESENT PRESENT

SUB SUBSTAN STANTI AL EVI EVI DENC ENCE.

5

 THE  THE COURT:

6

WHAT WOULD THE THE SUB SUBSTAN STANTI AL EVI EVI DENC ENCE BE?

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

EXACTL EXACTLY Y WHAT THE ATTO ATTORN RNEY EY GENERAL ENERAL

7

HAS PRESEN PRESENTE TED D TO YO YOU UR HONOR I N THI S CASE. CASE.

I UNDERSTAND THAT THAT I N

8

ORDERI NG THE THE PRELI MI NARY ARY I NJ UNCTI ON THE THE CO COURT DI STI NGUI SHED SHED THE THE

9

RECORD I N F YOCK YOCK VERSUS SUN SUNNYVALE YVAL E FRO F ROM THE RECORD THAT TH THE

10

ATTO ATTORN RNEY EY GENERAL GENERAL PRESENTED P RESENTED I N OPPOSI POSI TI ON TO THE MOTI ON FOR

11

PRELI MI NARY ARY I NJ UNCTI ON.

12

RECO RECORDS WERE SUBSTA SUBSTAN NTI ALLY ALL Y SI MI L AR. AR.

13 14 11: 38: 22 15

 THE  THE COURT: WAS VERY VERY DI FFERENT. ERENT. GO THERE. THERE.

16

CHASE. CHASE.

17

 THI  THI NG.

BUT THAT THAT WAS J UST NOT ACC ACCURATE.

BUT WHAT THE THE COURT WAS HOLDI LDI NG I N FYOC FYOCK I DON' T WANT ANT TO GO THERE. THERE.

I DON' T WANT ANT TO

L ET ME J UST AG AGAI N GET BAC BACK K TO - - L ET' S CU CUT TO THE THE

L ET' ET' S UNDERSTAND SOM SOMETH ETHI NG. SO I S A KNI FE.

A GUN I S A DANG ANGEROU EROUS

YOU YO U KNOW I N LON LONDON THEY THEY HAVE A BAN ON

18

KNII VES. KN

19

MAYBE NEXT WEEK THEY' THEY' L L BAN PRESSURE PRESSURE CO COOKERS.

20

BUT THE THE FACT FACT I S THAT THAT A GUN I S A DANGERO EROUS THI THI NG.

21

MI SUSE SUSED D, I T' S DANGERO EROUS.

22

VAL VAL I D TO TOO OL FO FOR R PLEASURE PLEASURE AN AND SELF SEL F - DEFENSE.

23

THE THE

THEY THEY DON' T HAVE AVE GUNS.

BUT BUT NOW THEY THEY BAN BANNED KN KNII VES.

SO

I DON' T KNO KNOW. I F I T' S

I F I T' S NOT MI SUSE SUSED D, I T' S A PERFEC PERFECTLY TLY

NOW, I ASKED YO YOU UR CO COL L EAGU EAGUE THI S QU QUESTI ON L AST TI ME

24

SHE SHE WAS HERE.

HOPEFU PEF UL L Y, YO YOU U' L L BE ABLE ABLE TO ANSW ANSWER I T BECAU BECAUSE SE I

25

SUSPECT SUSPECT YOU READ THE TRAN TRANSCRI SCRI PT AND AND HAVE ANSWERS TO ALL ALL MY

59

11: 39: 08

1

QUESTI ONS.

2

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

3

 THE  THE COURT:

HOPEFULL PEFULL Y.

SO WHAT' S GOI NG ON I S THA THAT SOME MASS

4

SHOOTI NGS TH THAT OCC OCCU UR THERE THERE ARE PEO PEOP PL E TH THAT ARE USI USI NG MAGAZI AGAZI NES

5

 THA  THAT ARE LABELED LABELED AS LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY MAGAZI NES, ES, ANYTHI YTHI NG OVER 10

6

ROUNDS.

7 8

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A: SHO SHOOTI NGS.

9 10

OVER A MAJ ORI TY OF PUBLI PUBLI C MASS

NOT J UST SOM SOME.

 THE  THE COURT:

NOW TO TOM MORROW I ' M GOI NG TO I SSU SSUE A DECR ECREE. EE.

 THE  THE DECR ECREE I S THA THAT ANYO YON NE WHO HAS A MAGAZI NE OF MORE THA THAN 10

11

ROUNDS HAS TO GET RI D OF THEM THEM.

12

GOI NG TO STOP STOP PEO PEOPL E LI L I KE TH T HE SAN SAN BERNARD BERNARDI NO SHO SHOOTERS TERS FRO F ROM

13

ENG ENGAGI NG I N MASS SHO SHOOTI NGS.

14

RI GHT?

11: 39: 56 15 16

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

 THE  THE COURT:

18

20

" A, " I T' S NOT

YOU YO U KN KNO OW THAT, THAT, AND AND I KN KNO OW THAT. THAT.

CRI MI NALS WI L L ALWAYS EXI EXI ST, YO YOU UR

HONOR.

17

19

TUR TURN THEM THEM I N.

EXA EXACTLY.

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

THAT THAT DOESN' ESN' T MEAN THE THE STATE I S

FOR FO RBI DDEN FRO FROM M TRYI NG TO MAKE AKE I T MORE DI DI FF FFII CUL T FO F OR I NDI VI DUALS  TO OBTAI TAI N THO THOSE DANGERO EROUS MAGAZI NES. ES.

21

 THE  THE COURT:

I GOT YO YOU U.

I UNDERSTA ERSTAN ND.

22

 THE  THE COURT:

THEN THEN WE' RE GOI NG TO GET TO - - I WAVE MY

23

MAGI AGI C WAND AND.

I MAKE ALL AL L THE MAGAZI AGAZI NES WI TH MORE THAN 10 ROU ROUNDS

24

GO AWAY. AY.

25

OR DECI DECI DES THAT HE OR OR SHE WANT ANTS TO T O FOR WHATEVE ATEVER R REASON KI L L

THEY WENT AWAY. AY.

THEN THE NEXT PERSON PERSON WHO I S DERANG ERANGED

60

11: 40: 33

1 2 3 4 5

PEO PEOPL E, THEY' RE PROBAB PROBABL L Y GO GOI NG TO USE A GU GUN THAT THAT HAS HAS A MAGAZI AGAZI NE  THA  THAT HOLDS LDS 10 ROUNDS.

AND THE THE NEXT EXT PERSO PERSON THA THAT COMMI TS A MASS

SHOOTI NG I S GO GOI NG TO USE A WEAPO EAPON THAT CONTAI NS 10 ROUN ROUNDS.

AND AND

 THE  THE NEXT EXT PERSO PERSON AFTER THA THAT I S GOI NG TO USE A WEAPO EAPON N THA THAT CONTAI NS A MAGAZI AGAZI NE TH THAT HOL DS 10 10 ROU ROUNDS.

6

NOW ALO ALONG I S GO GOI NG TO COME TH THE STATE, ST ATE, AND AND THE STATE STATE

7

I S GO GOI NG TO USE TH T HE VERY SAME TYP TYPE E OF OF EVI DENCE ENCE THAT THAT THE STATE

8

HAS USED USED I N THI THI S CASE, CASE, AND AND THEY' THEY' RE GOI NG TO COME I N AND AND THEY' THEY' RE

9

GOI NG TO SAY, L OOK, J UDGE, POL POL I CE OFF OFFII CERS ERS ARE ARE BEI BEI NG ASSAU ASSAUL L TED

10

ALL AL L THE TI TI ME WI TH THESE WEAPO EAPONS TH T HAT HOL D 10 ROUNDS, AND AND THEY

11

WI L L BECO BECOME THE THE NEW L ARG ARGE CAPAC CAPACII TY MAGAZI AZI NE.

12

WI L L SAY, J UDGE, WE HAV HAVE E TO TAKE THESE OF OFF THE THE STREETS STREETS BECAU BECAUSE SE

13

L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT OF OFFI CERS ARE ARE BEI BEI NG ASSAUL ASSAUL TED TED WI TH THESE AND AND

14

PEO PEOPL E ARE BEI NG KI L L ED, ED, AND AND YO YOU U KN KNO OW, GUESS WHAT, YO YOU U ONL Y

11: 41: 39 15 16

AND AND THE THE STATE

NEED 2. 2 ROUNDS FO F OR SELFSELF - DEFENSE. OKAY. KAY.

NOW WHAT?

I HAVE AVE ESSENTI ESSENTI ALLY ALL Y THE THE SAME

17

SI TUATI TUATI ON I HAVE AVE TO T ODAY ON ONL Y YO YOU U WI L L BE ARG ARGUI NG THAT THAT SOM SOMETHI NG

18

WHI CH I S 10 ROUNDS I S A LARG L ARGE CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NE TH THAT OU OUGHT TO TO

19

BE BAN BANN NED, ED, AND AND THE THE LEG L EGII SLATU SL ATURE RE HAS HAS MADE I TS PO P OL I CY DECI SI ON AND AND

20

I SHOUL D DEFER EF ER TO I T, AND AND SECO SECOND AMENDMENT BE DAMNED. ED.

21 22 23

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

RI GHT?

I ' M NOT GOI NG TO PREDI CT WHAT THE THE

LEGI LEGI SLATU SLATUR RE -  THE  THE COURT:

WELL, I AM BECA ECAUSE WHEN YO YOU U LOO LOOK AT THE THE

24

I NCREMENTAL WAY THAT WE HAVE BEEN BEEN ADD ADDRESSI RESSI NG THE SECO SECOND ND

25

AMEND ENDMENT, ENT, L OGI C AND AND REASON REASON TEL TEL L S US US THAT THAT TH THAT' S EXACTL EXACTL Y WHAT' S

61

11: 42: 30

1

GOI NG TO HAPPEN. APPEN.

2

GOI NG TO CO COME I N AND AND SAY, SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, WE GOT TO GET RI D OF

3

1010- ROUND MAGAZI AGAZI NES SO WE' RE GOI NG TO GO TO 7.

4

BENI TEZ I S GO GOI NG TO COME ALON ALONG AND AND SAY, GUESS WHAT, I ' M GOI NG

5

THEN THEN YO YOU U' RE GOI NG TO SAY - - THE THE STATE I S

THEN J UDGE

 TO HAVE YO YOU U GET RI D OF THE THE 1010- ROUND MAGAZI NES; ES; YO YOU U CAN' T HAVE A

6

MAGAZI AGAZI NE TH THAT' S MORE THAN 7 ROU ROUNDS.

7

SHO SHOOTER TER I S GOI NG TO USE USE A WEAPON EAPON THAT THAT KI L L S WI TH A 7- ROUND

8

MAGAZI AGAZI NE, AND AND THEN THE NEXT NEXT PERSO P ERSON N AFTER AFT ER THAT THAT I S GO GOI NG TO USE A

9

7- ROUND MAGAZI AGAZI NE, AND AND THE NEXT NEXT PERSO P ERSON N AFTER AFT ER THAT THAT I S GO GOI NG TO

10

AND AND THEN THE NEXT NEXT MASS

USE A 7- ROUND MAGAZI AGAZI NE.

11

 THEN  THEN THE THE STATE STATE I S GOI NG TO COME AND SAY, SAY, LOO LOOK, J UDGE,

12

L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT I S BEI NG ASSAUL ASSAUL TED WI TH THESE THESE 7- ROUND

13

MAGAZI AZI NES, AND AND PEOPL PEOPLE E ARE ARE BEI NG KI L L ED I N MASS SHO SHOOTI NGS WI TH

14

7- ROUND MAGAZI AGAZI NES. ES.

11: 43: 26 15

WE GOT TO BAN 7- ROUND MAGAZI AGAZI NES. ES.

YOU CAN

SEE WHERE THI THI S I S GO GOI NG TO PROG PROGRESS, AND AND THI THI S I S WHY I WAS

16

ASKI ASKI NG YO YOU U THE THE QUESTI ON BECAU ECAUSE SE I T' S A TO TOU UGH QUESTI ON.

17

NOT AN EASY QUESTI ON.

18

SHO SHOUL D NOT BE AN EASY QU QUESTI EST I ON F OR ANYO ANYON NE.

19

AT WHAT POI POI NT I N TI ME, WHERE, WHEN, EN, BECAU BECAUSE SE THE EVI EVI DENCE ENCE I S NO NOT

20

GOI NG TO CHAN CHANG GE.

21

BE KI L L ED. ED.

22

I NJ URED. ED.

23

BE ASSAU ASSAUL L TED TE D WHETH ETHER I T BE WI TH A 10- ROUND MAGAZI AGAZI NE OR OR 7- ROUND

24

MAGAZI AGAZI NE OR OR 5- ROUND MAGAZI AGAZI NE.

25

NUMBER THAT THAT KEEPS SURFAC SURFACII NG - - BY THE THE WAY, I CAN' AN' T WAI T TO SEE

I T' S NOT AN EASY QUESTI ON FO FOR R ME.

I T' S IT

BUT BUT MY QU QUESTI EST I ON I S:

THERE' S GO GOI NG TO BE PEOPL PEOPL E THAT THAT ARE ARE GO GOI NG TO

THERE' THERE' S GOI NG TO BE PEOPL PEOPLE E THAT THAT ARE ARE GOI NG TO BE THER THERE' E' S GOI NG TO BE POL POL I CE OFF FFII CERS ERS THAT THAT ARE ARE GOI NG TO

AND AND I F WE GET GET DOWN TO THE 2. 2

62

11: 44: 08

1 2 3

 THE  THE POI POI NT 2.

A DERR ERRI NGER WI LL HOLD 2, BUT THE THE POI POI NT 2, I CAN' T

WAI T TO TO SEE SEE WHAT THAT WEAPO EAPON I S GO GOI NG TO L OOK LI LI KE.

BUT BUT WHEN

 YOU  YOU GET DOWN TO 2. 2 ROUNDS, SOMEONE I S GOI NG TO SAY, SAY, LOO LOOK, FO FOR R

4

SELF SEL F- DEFEN EF ENSE, SE, YO YOU U ONL Y N NEED EED ONE RO ROUND.

5

I F YO YOU U' RE A GO GOOD SHO SHOT, AND AND YO YOU U PUT PUT THE SHO SHOT CENTE CENTER R MASS, YO YOU U

6

GOT THE PERSO PERSON N.

7

I N AND SAY, SAY, L OOK, J UDGE, L AW ENFO ENFOR RCEMENT ENT OFF OFFII CERS ERS ARE ARE BEI NG

8

ASSAULTE ASSAULTED D WI TH THESE DERRI NGERS TH T HAT USE TW T WO ROUNDS, AND AND PEOP EOPL E

9

ARE ARE BEI NG KI L L ED BY PEO PEOPLE PL E USI NG DERRI ERRI NGERS WI TH TWO ROUNDS.

10

 THEN  THEN GUESS ESS WHAT?

THAT' THAT' S ALL ALL YOU YOU NEED. EED.

THAT' THAT' S ALL YO YOU U NEED. EED.

AND AND YO YOU U' RE GOI NG TO COME

AS THE THE EVI EVI DENC ENCE SHO SHOWS, AND YO YOU U KNOW I T, AND I

11

KNO KN OW I T, I N A LAR L ARG GE NU NUMBER OF THESE MASS SHO SHOOTI NGS, THE SHO SHOOTER

12

HAS MORE THAN ONE WEAPO EAP ON.

13

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

14 11: 45: 02 15

 THE  THE COURT:

RI GHT? THA THAT' S CORRECT. ECT.

THEY THEY USUA SUALLY LL Y COME I N WI TH MANY WEAPO EAPON NS.

AND AND SO NOW THE ARGU ARGUMENT I S GOI NG TO CO COME AND THE STATE ST ATE I S GOI NG

16

 TO COME I N AND THE THE STATE STATE I S GOI NG TO SAY, SAY, LOO LOOK, J UDGE, WE NEED EED

17

 TO PASS PASS A LAW, AND THE THE LAW I S YO YOU U CAN' T OWN MORE THA THAN - - PI CK A

18

NUMBER - - 10 GUNS BECAUSE BECAUSE I F YOU GOT MORE TH THAN 10 GUNS, THE

19

CHANC ANCES ARE ARE YO Y OU' RE GO GOI NG TO KI L L AND AND I NJ URE MORE PEOPL PEOPLE, E,

20

ASSAUL ASSAUL T MORE LAW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT OF OFF I CERS AND AND SO ON.

WE' RE GOI NG

21

 TO GET DOWN, DOI NG THE THE SAM SAME PRO PROGRESSI ESSI ON, UNTI L WE' RE AT THE THE

22

POI NT WHERE YOU HAVE HAVE MAYBE AYBE ONE GUN GUN WI TH ONE ROUN ROUND D, AND YOU

23

BETTE BETTER R HO HOPE TO T O HECK TH THAT WHOEVER I S BREAKI NG I NTO YOU YOUR HO HOUSE TO

24

RAPE YO Y OUR WI FE OR OR RAPE RAPE YO YOU UR DAU DAUG GHTER TER THAT THAT YO YOU U CAN CAN HI T HI M OR

25

HER WI TH THAT THAT ONE RO ROUND AND AND HI T HI HI M CENTER ENTER MASS.

I T' S A

63

11: 45: 49

1

DI FF FFII CULT QUESTI ON, BUT WHAT I ' M ASKI SKI NG YO YOU U I S WHY THE THE 10

2

ROUNDS, AND AND WHY DO I HAVE TO GI VE SUBSTANTI AL WEI GHT TO T O THE

3

L EGI EGI SLATU SL ATURE, RE, AND AND WOUL D I DO THE THE SAME THI THI NG I F THEY THEY SAI D 7?

4

WOUL D I DO THE THE SAME THI NG I F THEY THEY SAI D 5?

5

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

SURE. SURE.

THE THE QUESTI ON THE THE COURT I S

6

ASKI NG I S HOW L OW CAN CAN THE THE STATE ST ATE GO GO, AND AND THE THE COU COURT I S CON CONCERN CERNED

7

ABO ABOUT RUL RUL I NG ON A SLI SLI PPERY PP ERY SLO SL OPE AND AND POTENTI POTENTI ALL Y PAV P AVII NG THE THE WAY

8

 TO MORE REGU EGULATI ON OF MAGAZI NES OR A REGULATI ON OF - -

9 10 11

 THE  THE COURT: QUESTI EST I ON OF :

14 11: 46: 36 15 16

I T' S J UST A

DO WE STOP STOP TH THE SLI SL I DE, AND AND I F SO SO, WHEN DO WE STOP STOP

 THE  THE SLI DE?

12 13

WE' RE ALREA LREADY THER THERE. E.

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

THI THI S I S NOT THE THE CASE TO STOP STOP THE THE

SLI DE.  THE  THE COURT:

WHY NOT?

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

BUT LOO LOOK - -

BECAU ECAUSE SE - -

- - APPOI PPOI NTED TO BE I NDEPEN EPENDENT ENT THI THI NKER KERS,

17

NOT TO TO FOL L OW THE CRO CROWD OR THE THE HERD HERD..

18

WHY WOULD ULD I NOT UPHO UPHOL D THE 1010- ROUND ROUND BAN?

19

UPHOL UPHOL D A 7- RO ROUN UND D BAN?

20

WHY WOULD ULD I NOT UPHO UPHOL D A MORE THAN 10 GUN UNS S BAN?

21 22 23

SO MY QU QUESTI ESTI ON I S WHY? WHY WOULD ULD I NOT

WHY WOULD ULD I NOT UPHO UPHOL D A 5- RO ROUN UND D BAN?

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

I N THE THE SECO SECOND CI RCUI T' S, THE THE

NEW YO YORK RK CASE I NVOL VI NG NEW YO YORK RK'' S LARGE CAPAC CAPACII TY MAGAZI AZI NE BAN BAN,,  THE  THE SEC SECOND CI RCUI T AT THE THE SAM SAME TI ME UPHELD PHELD THE THE BAN ON LARG LARGE

24

CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES DEFI EF I NED AS MORE TH THAN 10 ROUNDS WHI L E ON ON THE

25

SAME RECO RECORD STRI STRI KI NG DOWN THE 7- ROUND L OAD L I MI T.

SO I N THAT THAT

64

11: 47: 19

1

CASE, CASE, THE COURT URT HAD HAD CONCERNS.

THE COURT URT FEL FELT T TH THAT 7 ROUN ROUNDS WAS

2

 TOO  TOO LOW LOW.

3

 THE  THE NUMBER OF ROUNDS THA THAT HAVE TRA TRADI TI ONALLY LL Y BEEN EEN USED SED I N

4

REVO REVOL VERS VERS WHI CH HAVE AVE HI HI STORI STORI CALLY ALL Y BEEN THE THE QU QUI NTESSENTI TESSENTI AL

5

DEFEN EF ENSE SE WEAPO EAPON, I THI NK YOU YOU START START TO HAVE MORE CO CONSTI STI TUTI ONAL

6

CONCERNS.

7 8 9 10

I THI THI NK THE THE LOW LOWER YO YOU U GET - - THE THE CLOSE LOSER R YO YOU U GET TO

 THE  THE COURT:

ASKI NG ME TO PREDI PREDI CT.

12

NOT THE THE QUESTI ON.

13

DECI SI ON?

14

ROUNDS?

17

BUT

THA THAT ACTUA TUALLY LL Y I S

I UNDERSTAND ERSTAND THE THE 7 ROUND THI THI NG.

BUT BUT

 TRU  TRUST ME, 10 YEAR YEARS FR FRO OM NOW, 20 YEAR YEARS FR FRO OM NOW, THA THAT ALSO WI LL BE DI SAPPEAR SAPPEARII NG.

16

I UNDERSTA ERSTAN ND YO YOU UR POI POI NT.

 THA  THAT' S REALL EALL Y SHEE SHEER R SPEC SPECULATI ON ON YO YOU UR PAR PART.

11

11: 48: 17 15

I ' M SORRY.

7 ROUNDS WI L L ALSO BE DI SAPPEAR SAPPEARII NG. THE THE QUESTI ON I S:

WHO SAI D 10 RO ROUN UNDS?

THAT' THAT' S

HOW DO I MAKE AKE THAT THAT

WHO SAI D 7 RO ROUN UNDS?

WHO SAI D 5

AND AND ON WHAT EVI DENCE ENCE AM I MAKI NG THE DECI SI ON TO

DECI ECI DE WHETHER, ETHER, YES, 10 RO ROUNDS I S AN AN APPROPRI ATE LEVEL, LEVEL , 7 ROUNDS, 5 ROU ROUNDS, BECAUSE BECAUSE TH T HE EVI DENCE ENCE TH THAT YO YOU HAVE PRESE PRESEN NTED TED  TO ME I N THI THI S WHOLE STAC STACK OF - - I F I WAS I N YO YOU UR SHO SHOES - - I

18

WASN' ASN' T TH T HE GREA GREATEST TEST L AWYER I N TO TOW WN, I ASSURE ASSURE YOU YOU, BUT BUT I COUL D

19

MAKE TH T HE VERY VERY SAM SAME ARGUM ARGUMENT FO F OR A BAN OF 1010- RO ROUN UND MAGAZI AGAZI NES, ES,

20

7- ROUND MAGAZI AGAZI NES, ES, 5- ROUND MAGAZI AGAZI NES. ES.

21

2. 2.

22

DEPEND EP ENDII NG ON HOW MANY MASS ASS SHO SHOOTI NGS THERE THERE HAVE BEEN BEEN WOULD ULD

23

DEPEND EP END ON HO HOW MANY ANY J UDGES WOULD ULD BE BE I NCLI CLI NED TO GO GO ALO AL ONG WI TH ME

24

AND AND FI ND THAT, I N FACT, ACT, MY PRO P ROPOSED BAN WOUL D PASS

25

CONSTI TUTI TUTI ONAL MUSTER STER.

I COUL D GET DO DOWN TO THE

I COULD ULD GET DO DOWN TO THE ONE GUN WI TH ONE RO ROUND.

NOW,

I J UST - -

65

11: 49: 12

1

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

THE THE ATTO ATTORN RNEY GENERA ENERAL L ' S AN ANSWER I S

2

 THA  THAT THE THE COURT CANNOT UNDER I NTERM TERMEDI ATE SCR SCRUTI NY I NVALI DATE

3

 THE  THE CURRENT ENT LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY MAGAZI NE BAN BECA ECAUSE OF THE THE COURT' S

4

PREDI PREDI CTI ON OF HO HOW THE THE LEG L EGII SLATU SL ATURE RE OR THE THE PEOPL PEOPLE E WI L L ACT ACT I N THE THE

5

FUTU FUTUR RE.

6

L EVERAG EVERAGE I N EXPERI EXPERI MENTI ENTI NG WI TH DI FF FFEREN ERENT BAN BANS. S.

7

COL ORADO, F OR EXAMPL E, HAVE A 15- ROUND BAN.

8

DI FFERENT ONE.

9

BAN. BAN.

I NTERM TERMEDI EDI ATE SCR SCRUTI NY AC ACCORDS THE THE STATES SI GNI FI CANT THE THE STATE OF

THEY HAVE HAVE A

THE FEDERAL EDERAL ASSAU ASSAUL L T WEAPO EAPONS BAN BAN WAS A 1010- ROUND

THE NU NUMBER THAT SEEM SEEMS TO BE I NVOL VOL VED I N MOST STAT STATE E AND AND

10

MUNI CI PAL L ARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NE BANS BANS I S MORE THAN THAN 10 ROU ROUNDS

11

OF AMMUNI TI ON - -

12

 THE  THE COURT:

BUT YO YOU U KNOW WHAT, THER THERE E ARE NI NE STATES STATES

13

- - I KNOW J UDGE YOUNG CI TED TED J USTI CE SC SCALI A I N A CASE THA THAT I ' M

14

PRETTY PRETTY FAMI LI AR.

11: 50: 18 15 16

AND I N THA THAT CAS CASE, E, AS I RECA ECALL , THE THE SUPR SUPREM EME

COURT MADE I TS DECI ECI SI ON BY STATI STI CAL ANALYSI S.

I T FO FOU UND THAT THAT

 THER  THERE E WERE ERE MORE STATES STATES THA THAT RULED ONE WAY ON AN I SSU SSUE THA THAN

17

OTHER THER STATES. STATES.

18

BECAUSE BECAUSE THE MAJ ORI TY OF THE STATE ST ATES S WENT ON ONE WAY, THEY WOUL D

19

RUL RUL E THE THE WAY THEY THEY DI D.

20

STATES, STATES, I NCL UDI NG D. C. , THAT THAT HAV HAVE E PASSED PASSED THESE THESE LARG LARGE CAPA CAPAC CI TY

21

MAGAZI AGAZI NES LAW L AWS.

22

SO ESSENTI ALL Y, THE SUPREM SUPREME CO COURT FOU FOUND THAT THAT

NOW, I N THI THI S CASE, CASE, THERE THERE ARE ARE NI NI NE

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

I BELI EVE EVE THE THE NUMBER I S NOW 10.

THE THE

23

STATE STATE OF OF VERMONT ON ON APRI L 11TH 11T H ENACTED ENACTED I TS OWN L ARGE CAPACI TY

24

MAGAZI AGAZI NE, AND AND THAT' S HARD HARDL L Y A GUN GUN CONTROL TROL STATE STATE,, AS YO YOUR HO HONOR

25

I S AW AWARE.

66

11: 51: 05

1 2

 THE  THE COURT:

THA THAT' S 10 OUT OF 50. 50.

AND MAY I POI POI NT OUT

 TO YO YOU U THA THAT SEV SEVERA ERAL OF THO THOSE STATES STATES,, AT LEAST LEAST 2, HAVE A

3

1515- ROUND LI MI T.

4

I LLI LL I NOI S, YO YOU U' RE WAY SMARTER TER THA THAN I AM BECA ECAUSE - - NOW I LLI LL I NOI S

5

SEEM SEEMS TO TO HAVE MADE ADE WHAT I THI NK I S PERHAPS P ERHAPS A COMMON SEN SENSE

6

DECI SI ON TO AL AL L OW THE RURAL RURAL AREAS WHERE YO YOU CAN CAN POSSE POSSESS SS A

7

WEAPO EAP ON WI TH 35 ROUN ROUNDS BUT I N OTHER AREAS 10 10 ROUN ROUNDS.

8 9

AND I LLI LL I NOI S - - I F YO YOU CAN FI GURE OUT

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

SUR SURE.

SO THEY THEY FO FOU UND THA THAT I N THE THE RURAL AREAS EAS YO YOU U

10

CAN POSSES SSESS S A WEAPO EAP ON THAT HAD A MAGAZI AGAZI NE OF OF 35 35 ROUNDS.

11

SEEMS TO BE A L AW THAT THAT I S NO NOT A BRO BROAD BRU BRUSH. SH.

12

WI TH A BROAD BRUSH. BRUSH.

13 14 11: 52: 12 15

THAT

I T DO DOESN' ESN' T PAI NT

I T ACTUAL ACTUALL L Y SEEM SEEMS TO HAVE MADE ADE AN ATTEM ATT EMPT

 TO ADDRESS ESS REALI EALI TY AS OPPOSE PPOSED D TO SOME THEO THEORETI CAL ABSTRA STRACT CONCEPT CEPT TH T HAT SOMEONE CAME UP WI TH, SOME ARBI TRARY NUM NUMBER TH THAT  THEY  THEY PI CKED KED OUT OF THE THE AI R.

BECA ECAUSE THER THERE' E' S NOTHI THI NG I N THI THI S

16

EVI EVI DENC ENCE, BY THE THE WAY, THAT THAT I CAN SEE THAT THAT I NDI CATES THAT, THAT, YO YOU U

17

KNOW, I F YOU HAD A MAGAZI AGAZI NE OF 11 11 ROUN ROUNDS, ANY ANYTHI NG WOULD ULD CHAN CHANG GE

18

FRO ROM M 10 RO ROUN UND DS OR EVEN EVEN I F YOU HAD HAD 15 ROUN ROUNDS THAT THE OUTCOM UTCOME OR

19

 THE  THE SAFETY SAFETY OF THE THE PEOPLE WOULD BE ANY GREATER EATER,, OR 20 ROUNDS, OR

20 21 22

30 ROUNDS. MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

THE THE STATE STATE HAS HAS PRESENTED PRESENTED EVI DENC ENCE

 THA  THAT BANS ON CAPAC PACI TY SI ZE, WHETHER ETHER I T BE A BAN ON MAGAZI NES

23

OVER 20 ROU ROUNDS, 15 ROUNDS, THEY I NCR CREASE EASE THE FREQ FREQU UENCY ENCY OF OF THESE

24

PAUSES PAUSES I N PUB PUBLI C MASS SHO SHOOTI NGS.

25

MATTER OF OF SECONDS, THO THOSE SECON SECONDS TRANSL TRANSLATE ATE I NTO L I VES.

AND EVEN EVEN I F I T' S J UST A

67

11: 52: 59

1 2 3 4

 THE  THE COURT:

BUT THER THERE' E' S CONFLI FL I CTI NG TESTI TESTI MONY - -

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

AND I F THER THERE' E' S CONFLI FL I CTI NG

 TESTI  TESTI MONY, THE THE MOTI ON FO FOR R SUM SUMMARY J UDGMENT ENT MUST BE DENI ENI ED.  THE  THE COURT:

NO BECA ECAUSE I T HAS TO BE CREDI EDI BLE.

THE THE

5

EVI DENCE ENCE THAT' THAT' S PRESENTED PRESENTED TO ME HAS HAS TO BE CRED CREDI BLE EVI DENCE. ENCE.

6

EVI EVI DENC ENCE THA THAT' S - -

7 8 9

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

THE THE COURT CANN ANNOT MAKE CREDI BI L I TY

DETERM ETERMI NATI ONS ON ON A MOTI ON FOR SUMMARY J UDGMENT.  THE  THE COURT:

BUT I T HAS TO BE RELI ABLE.

I T HAS TO BE

10

ADM ADMI SSI BLE. BLE.

11

SUB SUBSTA STANTI AL J USTI STI FI CATI ON FO FOR R I T, I DON' T HA HAVE TO RELY ON ON I T.

12

AND AND SOM SOMEBOD EBODY' S OPI NI ON ABOUT WHAT HAPPEN APP ENED ED WI THOUT

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

I T' S NOT AN OPI NI ON THAT THAT SEVER SEVERAL AL

13

CHI CHI L DREN AT SANDY HOOK WERE ABLE TO ESCAPE DURI DURI NG THE CRI CRI TI CAL CAL

14

PAUSES PAUSES OF OF THAT THAT SH SHOOTI NG.

11: 53: 43 15

 THE  THE COURT:

WE' RE BACK TO THE THE SAM SAME POI POI NT, COUNSEL, SEL,

16

WHI CH I S, AND AND I F YO YOU U HAD A MAGAZI AGAZI NE OF OF 7 ROU ROUNDS, THE PERSO PERSON N

17

WOULD ULD HAVE TO T O L OAD, REL REL OAD MORE OFTEN WHI CH WOULD ULD GI VE SOMEBOD BODY

18

A CH CHANCE ANCE TO ESCAPE ESCAPE OR TO ATT ATTACK HI HI M.

19

ROUNDS, THE THE SAME THI THI NG APPLI ES.

20 21 22 23

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

AND AND I F YO Y OU GOT DOWN TO 5

OR BAN BANNI NG FI REARM REARMS I N GENERA ENERAL L , THEN THEN

 THER  THERE E WOULD BE NO MASS SHO SHOOTI NGS.  THE  THE COURT:

I THI THI NK THA THAT' S THE THE ULTI MATE - -

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

THAT THAT MAY BE THE THE COURT' S CONCERN CERN.

24

BUT HER HERE, E, UNDER I NTERM TERMEDI EDI ATE SCRU SCRUTI TI NY, AS THE THE NI NI NTH CI RCUI T

25

REPEATEDL Y EMPHAS PHASII ZED ZED, THE THE PEO P EOPL PLE' E' S PR P REDI EDI CTI VE J UDGMENTS ENTS ARE ARE

68

11: 54: 23

1

AFFO AFF ORDED SUBSTAN SUBSTANTI TI AL DEF DEFEREN ERENCE. CE.

2

 THE  THE COURT:

BUT NOT SO LON LONG AS I T I NTERFER TERFERES ES WI TH A

3

CONSTI TUTI TUTI ONALLY ALL Y PROTECTED PROTECTED RI GHT, AND AND THE THE CO CONSTI TUTI TUTI ONALLY ALL Y

4

PROTECTED TECTED RI GHT AS SET FOR FORTH I N HELL ER I S THAT THAT UN UNL ESS I T' S A

5

DANGEROUS EROUS AND UN UNUSUAL USUAL WEAP EAPON THAT' THAT' S NOT CO COM MMONLY NLY POSSE SSESSED SSED BY

6

L AW- ABI ABI DI NG CI TI ZENS ZENS FO F OR THE THE PROTECTI PROTECTI ON OF THE THE HEAR HEARTH TH AN AND THE THE

7

HOME, THAT I T I S PROTE PROTECTED. CTED.

AND AND SO YOU CAN MAKE THE ARGU ARGUMENT

8

 THA  THAT A GUN I S A DANGERO EROUS THI THI NG; YO YOU U CAN MAKE THE THE ARGUMENT ENT THA THAT

9

 THE  THE MORE ROUNDS YO YOU U FI RE FR FRO OM I T THE THE MORE PEOPLE ARE GOI NG TO

10

BE I NJ URED AND AND THE THE MORE PEOPL PEOPLE E ARE ARE GOI NG TO BE KI L L ED. ED.

11

HELL EL L ER BASI BASI CAL CAL L Y SAYS TO YO YOU U I T DO DOESN' ESN' T MATTER BECAU BECAUSE SE AS LO L ONG

12

AS I T I S NOT A DAN DANG GEROU EROUS AND UNUSUAL USUAL WEAPO EAPON WHI CH I S BEI BEI NG USED SED

13

BY, I N COMMON USE BY LAW- ABI ABI DI NG CI TI ZENS ZENS FOR FOR THE THE PROTECTI PROTECTI ON OF

14 11: 55: 23 15

 THE  THE HEAR EARTH AND THE THE HOME, THA THAT' S I T.

18 19

EVER EVERYTH YTHII NG ELSE I S OFF THE THE

 TAB  TABLE.

16 17

BUT BUT

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

THAT' THAT' S NOT WHAT HELL EL L ER SAI D, YO YOU UR

HONOR.  THE  THE COURT:

WELL - -

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

AND THE THE NI NTH CI RCUI T I N CHOVAN VAN, I N

20

 J ACKSO KSON, SYLVES SYLVESTER TER,, REPEA EPEATEDLY, THE THE NI NTH CI RCUI T HAS STATED STATED

21

 THA  THAT THA THAT' S NOT THE THE SOLE I NQUI RY.

THE THE TWO QUESTI ESTI ONS THA THAT THE THE

22

COURT PRESENTED PRESENTED ON I TS ORD ORDER ON THE THE PRELI PREL I MI NARY ARY I NJ UNCTI ON

23

MOTI ON DEALT EAL T EXCLU EXCLUSI VELY VEL Y WI TH WHETH ETHER LARGE LARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAG MAGAZI AZI NES

24

ARE I N C CO OMMON USE USE FOR LAW L AWFUL PURPOSE URPOSES S AND WHETH ET HER TH T HEY' EY ' RE

25

USEFUL FOR FOR MI L I TI A SERVI SERVI CE.

BUT BUT THO THOSE QUESTI ONS ONL Y FOC FOCUS ON

69

11: 55: 52

1 2 3

 THE  THE FI RST STEP STEP OF THE THE SEC SECOND AMEND ENDMENT ENT I NQUI RY.

AND THE THE

ATTO ATTORN RNEY EY GENERAL GENERAL CAN - - WE CAN ASSUME THAT SURE, SURE, L ET' ET' S ASSUME  THA  THAT I S TRU TRUE.

BUT THEN THEN WE HAVE TO DETER ETERMI NE - - THEN THEN THE THE COURT

4

HAS TO DETERMI NE WHAT LEVEL OF SC S CRUTI RUTI NY APPLI APPL I ES, EVEN I F L ARG ARGE

5

CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZ AGAZII NES ARE I N COMMON USE, EVEN I F THEY THEY ARE

6

PRO ROT TECTED ECT ED UND UNDER THE T HE SECO SECOND ND AMENDM ENDMENT. ENT.

7 8 9

 THER  THERE' E' S A RI GHT TO AN ABORTI ON, BUT THA THAT DOESN ESN' T MEAN EAN  THA  THAT THE THE STATES STATES ARE PRO PROHI BI TED FROM I MPOSI POSI NG ANY RESTR ESTRII CTI ONS ON ABO ABORTI ONS.

I T' S AN UNDUE BURD BURDEN STAND STANDARD ARD.

I N THE THE FI RST

10

AMEND ENDMENT ENT CONTEXT, I F I T' S NO NOT CONTENTTENT- BASED BASED PURE PURE POL POL I TI CAL

11

SPEECH SPEECH,, I F I T' S COMMERCI ERCI AL SPEE SPEECH CH,, THEN THEN SOM SOME LO L OWER STAND STANDARD ARD OF

12

SCR SCRUTI NY APPLI APPL I ES.

13

PROTECTI ON, THERE' THERE' S STI L L SOM SOME LEEW L EEWAY FOR FOR THE THE STATES TO

14

EXPERI EXPERI MENT ENT I N TRYI NG TO ENAC ENACT T COM COMMON SENSE REGU REGUL ATI ONS.

11: 56: 43 15 16

SO EVEN EVEN I F THER THERE E I S FI RST AMEND ENDMENT ENT

 THE  THE COURT:

THA THAT' S WHAT I WAS TRYI TRYI NG TO GET AT, AND

 YOU  YOU J UST SAI SAI D SOME THI THI NGS THA THAT ARE VERY ERY DI FFI CULT FO FOR R ME WHI CH

17

WERE, ERE, NU NUM MBER BER ONE, ONE, YOU USE USED D THE WORDS RDS " CO COM MMON SENSE, SENSE, " NU NUM MBER

18

ONE.

19

I MPLI PL I ES THAT THAT J UST SI MPLY PL Y BEC BECAUSE THE THE STATE STATE SAYS SAYS THI THI S I S SO THA THAT

20 21 22 23 24 25

AND AND NUMBER TWO, THAT THAT THERE' S " L EEWAY. "

BUT BUT L EEWAY

 THE  THE COURT I N I NTERPR TERPRETI ETI NG WHAT I S ALLO LL OWABLE UNDER THE THE SEC SECOND AMEND ENDMENT, ENT, THAT THAT TH T HE COU COURT MUST SI MPL Y ROL ROL L OVER AND AND SAY, YEAH YEAH,,  THE  THE STATE STATE DECI ECI DED AND SO I T I S.

THEY THEY HAVE LEEWAY.

BUT NOT

UNFETTERED ETT ERED LEEWAY. MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

THA THAT' S RI GHT.

SO WHAT NOBODY HAS YET ANSWERED ERED FO FOR R ME I S

70

11: 57: 30

1

WHY 10?

2

SEE SEE WHAT I ' M GETTI NG AT?

3

WHY NOT 7?

WHY NOT 5?

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

WHY NOT 3?

WHY NOT 2?

DO YOU

I ' L L TELL YOU YOU WHY, YO YOU UR HONOR,

4

BECAU BECAUSE SE UN UNDER I NTERMEDI EDI ATE SCRU SCRUTI TI NY, THE THE FI F I T DO DOESN' ESN' T HAVE HAVE TO BE

5

PERFEC PERFECT. T.

6

 THE  THE COURT:

7 8

BUT I T HAS TO BE REASO EASONABLE.

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

EXACTL EXACTLY. Y.

THAT' THAT' S WHERE COMMON SENSE SENSE

COMES I NTO PLAY. PL AY.

9

 THE  THE COURT:

10

BUT 7, I S 7 REASO EASONABLE?

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

WELL , THAT' THAT' S NOT THE THE DECI ECI SI ON THAT THAT

11

 THE  THE PEOPLE OF CALI FO FOR RNI A AND THE THE LEGI LEGI SLATU SLATUR RE BEFOR EFORE I T DECI ECI DED

12

 TO ENA ENACT.

THA THAT' S J UST NOT THE THE I SSU SSUE BEFOR EFORE THE THE COURT.

13

PEOPL PEOPLE E DREW DREW A LI NE ARO AROUND 10.

14

 THE  THE COURT:

11: 58: 11 15 16

THE THE

WHAT I F I SAI SAI D THA THAT, NO, A 3030- ROUND

MAGAZI AGAZI NE PRO P ROHI BI TI ON WOUL D BE REASON REASONABLE BUT BUT NOT 10? MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

THE THE CO COURT I S - - CAN' T SAY SAY THAT THAT UNDER

17

I NTERMEDI EDI ATE SCRU SCRUTI NY BASED BASED ON THE THE EVI EVI DENCE ENCE WE PRESEN P RESENTED TED,, BASED BASED

18

UPON UPON WHAT APP APPEARS TO BE TH T HE COURT' COURT' S AGREEMENT TH T HAT THE MORE

19

ROUNDS YOU HAVE TH T HE MORE SH SHOTS YOU CAN CAN FI RE WI THOUT RELO REL OADI ADI NG,

20

AND AND THE PEO PEOPL E HAVE HAVE DRAW DRAWN THE LI L I NE, THE SAME LI L I NE TH T HAT CON CONGRESS

21

DREW WHEN I T EN ENACTED THE FED FEDERAL ERAL ASSAULT ASSAULT WEAPO EAPONS BAN, BAN, THE SAME

22

L I NE THAT THAT MOST STAT STATES ES TH THAT HAVE HAVE ENAC ENACTE TED D L ARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NE

23

RESTRI CTI ONS HAV HAVE E DRA DRAW WN.

24 25

 THE  THE COURT:

ALL 9 OF THEM THEM, 10? 10?

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

SOM SOME HAVE AVE 15.

BUT BUT UNDER

71

11: 58: 48

1

I NTERMEDI EDI ATE SCRU SCRUTI TI NY, THE THE STATES ARE ARE ALLO ALL OWED TO EXPERI MENT. ENT.

2

 THE  THE COURT:

3

10 AL AL TO TOG GETHER. ETHER.

4

RI GHT?

5

SO WHAT I ' M ASKI SKI NG YO YOU U I S - - SO THER THERE' E' S

THREE THREE OF THO THOSE 10 DON' T USE USE 10 AS THE THE BASI BASI S,

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

6

 THE  THE COURT:

OKAY. KAY.

THE THE STATES CAN DI SAG SAGREE, RI GHT. BUT THA THAT GETS US BACK TO WHERE ERE WE

7

ARE ARE WHI CH I S, SO I F THE THE STATE STATE SAYS SEV SEVEN EN,, DO I HAVE AVE TO J UST

8

BI TE MY LI L I P AND AND SAY, SAY, OKAY, KAY, THE THE STATE STATE SAI SAI D SEVEN SEVEN,, SO I MUST FI ND

9

 THA  THAT' S A REASO EASONABLE FI T?

10 11 12

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A: I TS LI P.

WE' RE NOT ASKI ASKI NG THE THE CO COURT TO BI TE

WE' RE NOT ASKI ASKI NG THE THE CO COURT TO J UST SI T BAC BACK K AND L ET

 THE  THE PEOPLE AND THE THE LEGI LEGI SLATU SLATUR RE ENA ENACT WHATEVER TEVER FI REAR EARM

13

RESTRI ESTRI CTI ONS THEY THEY WANT TO WI L L Y- NI L L Y.

14

POSI POSI TI ON.

THAT' THAT' S NOT OUR

THE THE STATE HAS HAS PRESENTED PRESENTED EVI DENCE ENCE THAT THAT THE THE COURT

11: 59: 40 15

APPEARS APPEARS TO AGREE WI TH AND AND THE THE PLAI PL AI NTI FF FFS S DO DON' T DI DI SPUTE, SPUTE, THAT THAT

16

L ARGE CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES EN ENABLE SHO SHOOTERS TERS TO FI RE MORE ROU ROUNDS.

17

 THE  THE STATE STATE ALSO PRES PRESEN ENTED TED EVI EVI DENC ENCE THA THAT THES THESE E ARE USED SED I N MANY

18 19

PUBLI PUBLI C MASS SHO SHOOTI NGS, OVER A MAJ ORI TY OF THEM THEM. OUT OF OF THE LAST LAST 10 10 MOST DEADL EADL Y PU P UBLI BLI C MASS SHOOTI NGS,

20

9 OUT OF 10 HAV HAVE E I NVOL VED L ARG ARGE CAPAC CAPACII TY MAGAZI AZI NES.

21

HAS PRESEN PRESENTED TED EVI DENC ENCE THAT THAT THE THE MORE I NJ URI ES AN I NDI VI DUAL

22

SUFF SUFFER ERS, S, THE THE MORE LI KELY KELY THEY THEY WI LL DI DI E.

23

REPORT REPORT I NDI CATE CATES S THAT THAT TH THE NU NUMBER I S AROUND 60 PERCEN PERCENT T I NCR CREASE EASE

24

I N LI KELI HOOD OF FA F ATALI TALI TY.

25

 THE  THE COURT:

THE STATE

DR. KOPER' PER' S EXPER EXPERT T

LET ME SHI SHI FT THE THE FO FOC CUS TO SOMETHI ETHI NG ELSE.

72

12: 00: 28

1

SO THE THE STATU STATUTE TE MAKES SEVERAL SEVERAL EXCEPT EXCEPTII ONS, ONE OF OF WHI CH I KI ND OF

2

HAD FUN WI TH YOUR COL L EAGUE EAGUE TH THE LAST L AST TI ME SH SHE WAS HERE ABOUT ABOUT

3

 THE  THE MOVI E I NDUSTRY. STRY.

OF COURSE, SE, THA THAT EXC EXCEPTI ON I S THER THERE E BECA ECAUSE

4

OF MONEY; RI GHT?

5

BECAU ECAUSE SE THE THE MOVI E I NDUSTRY STRY I S BI G I N CALI FO FOR RNI A.

6

REVEN REVENU UE I S GEN GENERA ERATED TED..

7 8 9 10

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

A LOT LOT OF J OBS.

YES, YES, A LOT LOT OF J OBS.

SO WE' RE GOI NG TO

I T' S OKAY.

I ' M HAVI NG A HARD TI ME - MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

 THEY'  THEY' RE USED AS PRO PROPS.

THEY THEY CAN CAN ONL Y USE USE THOSE MAGAZI AZI NES I F

THEY THEY WOULD NOT BE LOA LOADED LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY

13

MAGAZI AZI NES.

14

ARO AROUND WI TH L ARG ARGE CAPAC CAPACII TY MAGAZI NES, YO YOU UR HONOR.

12: 01: 18 15 16

A L OT OF TAX

EXEMPT MOVI E PEO P EOPL PL E AND AND SAY YO Y OU CAN CAN POSSE POSSESS SS TH T HESE MAGAZI AGAZI NES;

11 12

THAT' THAT' S THE THE REASO REASON N WHY THAT THAT EXCEPTI EXCEPTI ON I S THERE THERE

I T' S NO NOT AN EXCEPT EXCEPTII ON THAT THAT AL AL L OWS ACTO ACTORS RS TO WALK THAT' THAT' S J UST

NOT WHAT TH T HAT EXCEPTI ON PROVI DES.  THE  THE COURT:

I DI DN' T READ EAD THA THAT I N THER THERE, E, BUT LET' S

17

ASSUM ASSUME THAT TO TO BE THE CASE.

18

WHO WORKS ON ON A MOVI E SET SET WOUL D KNOW THERE' S A LAW L AW THAT SAYS SAYS I

19

CAN' CAN' T PUT AMMO I N THI THI S MAGAZI AGAZI NE, AND AND THEN GO OUT AND AND DO A MASS

20

SHO SHOOTI NG; RI GHT?

21 22 23

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

OF COUR COURSE SE,, SOMEONE WHO GOES PO P OSTAL ST AL

I T' S POSS POSSII BLE, BUT THE THE FI T DOESN ESN' T

HAVE AVE TO BE PERFECT.  THE  THE COURT:

OF COURSE I T DOESN ESN' T HAVE TO BE PERFEC PERFECT. T.

24

SO I N YO YOU UR EVI DENCE ENCE YO YOU U TALKED TAL KED ABO ABOUT THERE' THERE' S AN AN EXCEPT EXCEPTII ON.

THE THE

25

EXCEPTI EXCEPTI ON I S FO F OR LAW ENFO ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT OFF OFFII CERS, AND AND I HAVE AVE NO NOTHI THI NG

73

12: 01: 49

1 2

BUT BUT RESPECT RESPECT FO FOR R L AW ENFO ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT OFF FFII CERS TO BEGI N WI TH. TH.  THI  THI NK THEY' THEY' RE GREATLY EATLY UNDERER- PAI PAI D, UNDERER- RESPEC ESPECTED TED.

I

BUT I N

3

HERE, THEY THEY TALK TAL K ABO ABOUT TH T HE FAC F ACT T TH T HAT LAW L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT O OF F FI CERS CERS

4

SHOUL SHOULD D BE ALL AL L OWED TO TO CO CONTI NTI NU NUE E TO OWN THESE THESE WEAP EAPONS BECAUSE BECAUSE THEY

5

HAVE AVE GREA GREATER TER TRAI TRAI NI NG AND AND EXPERI EXPERI ENC ENCE.

6

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

7 8 9

 THE  THE COURT:

THAT THAT WOUL DN' T BE BE THE THE ONL Y REASO REASON N.

WELL, THA THAT' S ONE OF THE THE REASO EASONS.

I T' S

SAI D OVER AND AND OVER AND AND OVER AGAI N BY YOU YOUR EXPERTS I NCLU CLUDI NG I  THI  THI NK I T WAS THE THE L. A. SHER SHERII FF HI MSELF SELF..

10

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

11

 THE  THE COURT:

KEN KEN J AMES.

WAS I T HI M WHO TALKED TALKED ABOUT I N A PEAC PEACEFUL EFUL

12

SOCI SOCI ETY THERE' THERE' S NO NO NEED FOR - - YEAH. YEAH.

13

DI SCUSSI SCUSSI NG THI THI S I N CHAMBERS, BERS, WE THOUGHT, WELL EL L , I F WE HAD HAD A

14

PEAC PEACEF EFU UL SOCI SOCI ETY, ETY, WE WOUL DN' T NEED NEED L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT TO TO BEGI BEGI N

12: 02: 49 15

WI TH.

OF COURSE, AS WE WERE

BUT BUT EVEN I N L ONDON WHERE GU GUNS ARE ARE BAN BANN NED, ED, PERI PERI OD - - SO

16

L ET ME ASK ASK YOU THI THI S:

17

GET?

18

L AW ENFO ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT O OFF FFII CER THAT' THAT' S EXEMPTED FROM FROM THI THI S LAR L ARG GE

19

CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZ AGAZII NE RESTRI CTI ON.

20

OFFI CER BE EXEMPTED PT ED? ?

21 22 23

WHAT TRAI NI NG DO L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT OFFI CERS CERS

BEFORE BEFORE I DO THAT, THAT, L ET ME ASK YO YOU U THI THI S:

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

TELL TEL L ME WHAT I S A

WOUL D MY COURTROOM SECURI SECURI TY

I DON' T KN KNO OW I F YO YOU UR SECU SECURI TY

OFFI CER WOUL D BE EXEMPTED PT ED..  THE  THE COURT:

THE THE FELLO FELL OW FR FRO OM THE THE FEDER FEDERA AL PRO PROTECTI TECTI VE

24

SERVI CES AT THE GATE GATE COMI NG I NTO OUR PARKI NG AREA, WOUL D HE OR OR

25

SHE BE PROTECTED?

74

12: 03: 38

1

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

2

 THE  THE STATU STATUTE TE CLOSE LOSELY. LY.

3

 THE  THE COURT:

4

 THE  THE COURT:

6

I HAVEN' EN' T LOO LOOKED KED AT

BUT YO YOU U' RE REPRES EPRESEN ENTI TI NG THE THE STATE. STATE.

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

5

I T' S POSS POSSII BLE.

I AM.

SO YO YOU U DON' T KNOW?

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

YOU YO U CAN' T TELL ME?

I CAN REFER TO SECTI SECTI ON 830 OF THE THE

7

PEN PENAL CODE TH THAT DEF DEFII NES TH T HE DI DI FF ERENT ERENT CATEGO CATEGORI ES OF OF SWORN PEAC PEACE E

8

OFFI CERS WHO WOUL D BE EXEMPT FROM THE LARG L ARGE CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NE

9

BAN.

10 11

I ' D BE HAPPY TO TO..

I DON' T HAVE THA THAT PARTI PARTI CULAR SECTI SECTI ON

HAND ANDY WI TH ME AT TH T HE HEARI NG TODAY.  THE  THE COURT:

WOULD I BE EXEM EXEMPTED?

I F I FELT THA THAT I

12

NEEDED EEDED TO HAVE, AVE, FOR EXAM EXAMPLE, PL E, A GL GL OCK 17, WHI CH I DON' T HAVE HAVE

13

ONE, BUT BUT I F I FELT EL T I NEEDED EEDED TO HAVE AVE ON ONE I N ORDER TO PROTECT PROTECT

14

MYSEL F FRO F ROM - - AS YOU YOU KN KNO OW, THERE' THERE' S VARI VARI OUS PEOPL PEOPLE E WHO VERY VERY

12: 04: 23 15

OFTEN DI SAG SAGREE WI TH OPI NI ONS AND DECI ECI SI ONS THAT THAT I MAKE. AKE.

16

FELT EL T I NEEDED TO HAVE A GL OCK

17

EXEMPTED TED UNDER TH THAT SECTI SECTI ON?

18

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

IF I

17 TO PROTE PROTECT CT MYSEL YSELF F, WOUL D I BE

I DON' T BELI EVE EVE THAT THAT FEDER FEDERAL AL J UDGES

19

ARE ARE PEACE PEACE OFF OFFII CERS, YO YOU UR HONOR, AND AND I DON' T THI THI NK THERE' THERE' S AN

20

- - THER THERE' E' S NO NOT AN EXC EXCEPTI ON I N THE THE STATU STATUTE TE FOR FOR J UDGES, NO.

21

 THE  THE COURT:

SO WHAT' S THE THE RATI ONALE, I F YO YOU U WI LL, LL , FO FOR R

22

NOT EXEM EXEMPTI NG ME OR OR MY COU COURTROO RTROOM SECU SECURI RI TY OFFI CER OR THE PERSO PERSON

23

WHO I S OU OUT I N THE THE STREET STREET PRO PROTECTI NG THE THE GATE, GATE, BUT BUT PRO P ROTECTI NG

24

OTHER THER L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT OFFI CERS? CERS?

25

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

WHAT' S THE THE RATI RATI ONALE FO F OR THAT? THAT?

I ' M NOT SAYI SAYI NG THA THAT SEC SECURI TY

75

12: 05: 08

1

PERSO ERSONNEL GUARD UARDI NG THE COUR COURT THOUSE ARE NOT EXEM EXEMPTED FRO ROM M THE

2

STATUTE. STATUTE.

3

WELL EL L MAY BE BE EXEMPTED PT ED FROM THE STATUTE. STATUTE.

4

HONOR AND AND OTHER I NDI VI DUALS UALS WHO MAY HAVE A HEI GHTENED

5

SELF SEL F- DEFEN EF ENSE SE NEED, EED, AS I WOUL D ACKN ACKNO OWL EDG EDGE - - L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT

6

PERSON ERSONNEL ARE OFTEN TEN CALL CALL ED UPON TO SERVE SERVE WARRAN ARRANTS. TS.

7

HAVE AVE TO ENG ENGAGE I N SUSTAI SUSTAI NED GUNFI GHTS WI TH CRI MI NALS, L I KE I N

8

 THE  THE SAN SAN FR FRA ANCI SCO SCO EXA EXAMPLE THA THAT YO YOU UR HONOR MENTI ENTI ONED DURI NG THE THE

9

I ' D HAVE TO DOUBLE BLE CHECK CHECK FOR YO YOU UR HONOR.

DI SCU SCUSSI ON WI TH PLAI PL AI NTI FF FF'' S COUNSEL.

THEY VERY

WI TH RESPECT RESPECT TO YO YOU UR

THEY OF OFTEN TEN

SO L AW ENFO ENFOR RCEMENT ENT HAVE AVE

10

PARTI PARTI CUL AR DUTI ES AND AND OFT FTEN EN CERTAI ERTAI N SI TUATI TUATI ONS THAT THAT REQ REQU UI RE

11

SUSTAI SUSTAI NED FI REPOW EPOWER I N ORDER TO FUL FUL FI L L THEI THEI R DUTI ES TO PUB PUBL I C

12

SAFET SAFETY. Y.

13 14

 THE  THE COURT:

I BELI EVE EVE THE THE EXEM EXEMPTI ON COVERS ERS THEM THEM, FO FOR R

EXA EXAMPLE, PL E, I F I AM NOT MI STAKE STAKEN N, WHEN THEY' THEY' RE OFF OFF-- DUTY.

12: 06: 07 15

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

WHEN L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT OFFI CERS CERS ARE ARE

16

OFF FF-- DUTY, THEY THEY STI LL HAVE OB OBLI GATI ONS TO PRO PROTECT TECT THE THE PUB PUBLI C.

17

I N THE THE NI NI NTH CI RCUI T SI LVEI RA CASE, ASE, THE THE OFF FF-- DUTY EXC EXCEPTI ON FROM

18 19

 THE  THE ASSA SSAULT WEAPO EAPON NS CONTRO TROL ACT WAS UPHELD PHELD UNDER THE THE EQUAL PROTECTI ON CL AUSE. AUSE.

20 21 22 23 24 25

 THE  THE COURT:

I THI THI NK I T COVERS ERS THEM THEM WHEN THEY' THEY' RE

RETI ETI RED. MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

THE THE CALI FO FOR RNI A' S LARG LARGE CAPACI PACI TY

MAGAZI AGAZI NE BAN?  THE  THE COURT:

YES. YES.

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

I T DOES, HONORABLY RABLY RETI RED PEACE PEACE

76

12: 06: 33

1

OFF FFII CERS ERS NO NOT J UST ANY ANY RETI RED PEACE PEACE OFF OFFII CER. ER.

2

 THE  THE COURT:

SO I F YO YOU U' RE RETI RED, YO YOU U' RE NO LON LONGER

3

OFF FF-- DUTY OR OR ON- DUTY, YO YOU U CAN STI L L POSSESS POSSESS THESE THESE LAR L ARG GE CAPAC CAPACII TY

4

MAGAZI AZI NES.

5 6

BUT I , ON THE THE OTHER THER HAND, AS AN ACTI ACTI VE SI TTI NG

 J UDGE, I ' M NOT ALLO LL OWED TO POSS POSSESS ESS A LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY MAGAZI NE. I S THAT THAT WHAT YOU YOU' RE SAYI SAYI NG?

7

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

THE THE L EGI EGI SLATUR SLATURE ESTABL ESTABL I SHED SHED AN

8

EXCEPTI EXCEPTI ON F OR HONORABL RABL Y RETI RED PEAC PEACE E OF OFFI CERS AN AND THAT

9

EXCEPTI EXCEPTI ON WOUL D BE EVALU EVALUATED UN UNDER RATI ONAL BASI S, AND AND THERE

10

ARE ARE SEVERAL SEVERAL RATI RATI ONAL BASES THAT THAT WOUL D J USTI FY AN EXCEP EXCEPTI TI ON FOR

11

HONORABLY RABLY RETI RED PEACE PEACE OFF OFFII CERS.

12

 THE  THE COURT:

13 14

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

GENER ENERALL ALLY, Y, THEI THEI R I NCREASED EASED L EVEL EVEL OF

 TRA  TRAI NI NG.

12: 07: 16 15 16

LI KE WHAT?

 THE  THE COURT:

LET' S TALK TALK ABOUT THA THAT FO FOR R J UST A

SECON SECOND. MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

SUR SURE.

I NOTED THA THAT THER THERE' E' S NO EXC EXCEPTI ON FO FOR R

MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES FORCES.. MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:  THE  THE COURT:

WHERE ERE DO I FI ND I T?

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE EXC EXCEPTI ONS.

THAT' THAT' S NOT TRUE, TRUE, YO YOU UR HONOR.

I T' S I N SEC SECTI ON 3240 32400. 0.

I T' S ONE OF

CAN I STEP STEP AWAY FO FOR R A MOMENT, ENT, YO YOU UR HONOR?

 THE  THE COURT:

SUR SURE.

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

MAYBE YBE I MI SSED SSED SOMETHI ETHI NG. I N PENAL PENAL CODE SECTI SECTI ON 32440, THER THERE' E' S

77

12: 08: 25

1

AN EXCEPTI EXCEPTI ON FOR THE MANU ANUFACTUR ACTURE E OF OF L ARGE CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES

2

FOR EXPORT EXPORT OR OR FO FOR SALE SAL E TO T O GOVERNM VERNMENT ENT AGEN AGENCI CI ES OR THE MI L I TARY

3

PURSU PURSUAN ANT T TO APPLI APPL I CABL ABL E FED F EDERA ERAL L REGUL ATI ONS.

4 5 6

 THE  THE COURT: GETTI ETT I NG AT.

I UNDERSTA ERSTAN ND THA THAT.

THA THAT' S NOT WHAT I WAS

WHAT I WAS GETTI ETT I NG AT I S, YO YOU U GOT A MEMBER OF SEAL SEAL

 TEAM  TEAM 6; THE THE MEMBER OF SEA SEAL TEAM TEAM 6 I S AT HOME.

I S THER THERE E AN

7

EXCEPTI EXCEPTI ON THAT ALL AL L OWS TH T HAT MEMBER OF OF SEAL TEAM TEAM 6 TO T O HAVE AN

8

AR- 15 WI TH A MORE THAN 1010- ROUND MAGAZI AGAZI NE?

9 10

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

I DON' T KN KNO OW I F THERE' ERE' S AN EXC EXCEPTI ON

 TO THE THE ASSA SSAULT WEAPO EAPON NS BAN FO FOR R OFF- DUTY MI LI TAR TARY PERSO PERSONNEL.

11

 THE  THE COURT:

HOW ABOUT THE THE MAGAZI NES? ES?

I S THER THERE E AN

12

EXCEPT EXCEPTII ON F OR THAT THAT SEAL TEAM T EAM 6 MEMBER HAVI AVI NG A HI HI GH CAPACI CAPACI TY

13

MAGAZI AGAZI NE?

14 12: 09: 26 15

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

EXC EXCEPTI ON FO FOR R OFF FF-- DUTY MI L I TARY TARY SERVI SERVI CE MEMBER. ER.

16 17

I DO NOT KN KNO OW I F THERE THERE WOUL D BE AN

 THE  THE COURT:  THEY  THEY GO HOME AT NI GHT?

18

WHAT ABOUT A NATI ONAL GUARD MEMBER, ER, WHEN I S THER THERE E AN EXC EXCEPTI ON THA THAT COVERS ERS THEM THEM?

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

I DON' T KN KNO OW, YO YOU UR HONOR.

19

 THE  THE COURT:

THE THE ANSWER I S NO.

THER THERE E I S NONE.

20

 THE  THE COURT:

SO MY QUESTI ESTI ON - - WHI CH I THI THI NK I S A

21

PRETTY OBV OBVII OUS QU QUESTI ON - - SO YO YOU U HAVE AVE A RETI RETI RED POL POL I CE

22

OFFI CER. ER.

23

BY THE THE WAY, I ' M NOT SAYI SAYI NG THEY THEY SHO SHOULD NOT.

I ' M J UST

 TRYI  TRYI NG TO MAKE SEN SENSE OF THI THI S LEGI LEGI SLATI SLATI ON, THE THE SAFETY SAFETY FO FOR R ALL

24

ACT.

SO YOU GOT PEOPL PEOPLE E WHO ARE MEMBERS OF OF TH THE NAT NATII ONAL GUARD UARD,

25

MEMBERS WHO ARE - - PEOPLE EOPL E WHO ARE MEMBERS OF TH T HE MARI NE CORPS, RPS,

78

12: 10: 21

1 2 3

PEO PEOPL E WHO ARE MEMBERS OF OF THE ARMY, THE NAVY, NAVY, THE AI R FO FORC RCE. E.  THEY'  THEY' RE TREA TREATED TED AS CRI MI NALS I F THEY THEY I N FACT FACT OWN ONE OF THES THESE E L ARG ARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AZI NES TH T HAT J UST A FEW FEW YEARS AGO AGO WE TO T OL D THEM THEM

4

 THEY  THEY COULD POSS POSSES ESS. S.

5

 THI  THI NGS. YO YOU U J UST CAN' T BUY, SELL SELL OR TRA TRANSFER THEM THEM.

6

 THEY  THEY DON' T TUR TURN THEM THEM I N, YO YOU U' RE A CRI MI NAL.

7

I T WAS FI NE.

YOU YO U CAN POSS POSSES ESS S THESE THESE BUT NOW, I F

I WAS TRYI TRYI NG TO FI GURE OUT - - I WAS TRYI TRYI NG TO MAKE AKE

8

SENSE SENSE OF THI THI S, AND I WAS ASKI ASKI NG MYSELF - - YO YOU U' RE A L AW

9

ENFO ENFOR RCEMENT ENT OFFI CER OUT OF THE THE BI G CI TY.

10

OUT OF THE THE AI R.

NEEDL EEDL ES, CALI FO FORN RNI A.

I ' LL PI CK A BI G CI TY

WHAT ARE ARE THE THE ODDS THAT THAT

11

 YOU  YOU WOULD HAVE BETTER ETTER TRA TRAI NI NG I N THE THE USE OF - - AGAI N, I ' LL GO

12

 TO THE THE AR- 15.

THI THI S I S NOT ABOUT THE THE AR- 15. 15.

BUT WHAT ARE THE THE

13

ODDS TH T HAT YOU WOULD ULD HAVE BET BETTER TRAI T RAI NI NG ABOUT ABOUT TH THE USE OF AN

14

ARAR- 15 WHEN YO YOU U ARE ARE A POL POL I CE OFFI CER I N THE THE CI TY OF OF NEEDL NEEDL ES THAN THAN

12: 11: 31 15 16 17

 YOU  YOU WOULD BE I F YO YOU U WERE ERE A SER SERVI NG MEMBER OF SEA SEAL TEAM TEAM 6 WHI LE  YOU  YOU' RE AT HOME? MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

YOU YO UR HONOR MAY THI NK THAT THAT THERE' THERE' S NO

18

EVI DENCE ENCE I N THE RECO RECORD ABOUT TH THI S, BUT BUT YO YOUR HONOR MAY THI NK,

19

AND AND REASON REASONABLY SO, SO, THAT THAT SERVI CEMEN AND WOMEN HAVE HAVE SI GNI FI CAN CANT

20

 TRA  TRAI NI NG I N THE THE USE AND OPERA PERATI ON AND SAFE SAFE STORAGE OF FI REAR EARMS

21 22

I NCLUDI NG ASSAUL ASSAUL T WEAPON EAPONS, BUT BUT UN UNDER RATI RATI ONAL BASI S -  THE  THE COURT:

BUT THI THI S LEGI LEGI SLATI SLATI ON, J UST WI TH A BROAD

23

BRU BRUSH, SH, BASI BASI CALLY ALL Y SAYS, TO TOO O BAD BAD, SO SAD.

SO YO YOU U' RE HONORABLY RABLY

24

SERVI NG OUR CO COUNTRY, BUT BUT YO Y OUR WI FE, YO YOU UR DAUG AUGHTER, TER, YO YOU URSELF RSEL F AT

25

HOME, YO YOU U CAN' T PO P OSSESS SSESS ON ONE OF OF THESE LARG L ARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES

79

12: 12: 23

1

FOR FO R SELFSELF - DEFENSE. EFENSE.

2

ANYO ANYON NE, EXCEPT EXCEPT FOR FOR PERHAPS PERHAPS I N THE THE FI ELD EL D OF BATTL BATTLE. E.

3

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

YOU CAN HAVE ANY ANY N NU UMBER OF 1010- ROUND

MAGAZI AZI NES AT YOU YOUR DI SPOSAL SPOSAL FO F OR SELFSELF - DEFENSE PURPO PURPOSES, YES.

6 7

BUT BUT HERE HERE

 YOU  YOU' RE LI MI TED TO 10 ROUNDS.

4 5

YOU YO U' VE NEVER EVER KI L L ED ANYO YON NE, NEVER EVER I NJ URED

 THE  THE COURT:

BUT I F YO YOU U' RE I N THE THE MOVI E I NDUSTRY, STRY, YO YOU U

CAN CAN HAVE AVE A 15- ROUND, 30- ROUND, 100- ROUND MAGAZI AZI NE.

8

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

9

 THE  THE COURT:

TO USE AS A PRO PROP I N FI LMI NG.

I GOT YO YOU U.

I F YO YOU U' RE A RETI RED POLI POLI CE

10

OFFI CER, CER, YO YOU U' RE 80 YEARS OL D, YO YOU U CAN CAN HAVE AVE ON ONE OF OF THESE THESE

11

MAGAZI AZI NES, AND AND I T' S NO NOT FO FOR A PROP. PROP.

12

OF THESE MAGAZI AGAZI NES, AND AND YO YOU U CAN CAN HAVE I T LO L OADED ADED WI TH AM AMMUNI TI ON.

13

RI GHT?

14

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

12: 13: 13 15

 THE  THE COURT:

YOU YO U CAN CAN ACTUA ACTUAL L L Y HAV HAVE E ONE

YES. YES.

BUT I F YO YOU U' RE A SER SERVI NG MEMBER OF ONE OF

16

 THE  THE ARMED FO FOR RCES WHERE ERE YO YOU U' VE BEEN TRA TRAI NED ON HOW TO USE THES THESE E

17

 THI  THI NGS, AND YO YOU U' VE PRO PROBABLY USED SED THEM THEM A WHOLE LOT LOT MORE THA THAN A

18

SHERI SHERI FF DEPU EP UTY I N POD PODUNK COUNTY, TY , DOES TH T HAT MAKE ANY ANY SENSE SENSE TO

19 20

 YOU  YOU? MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

UNDER RATI ONAL BA BASI S, THE THE FI T

21

DOESN' ESN' T HAVE AVE TO BE PERFECT. PERFECT.

I T CAN CAN BE OVER VERI NCL USI VE, VE,

22

UNDERI NCL USI VE, AND AND THE THE PEOPL PEOPLE E OF OF CALI FO FORN RNI A AN AND THE THE

23

L EGI EGI SLATURE SL ATURE COUL D HAVE CONCLU CLUDED THAT HO HONORABLY RETI RETI RED PEACE

24

OFFI CERS CERS GENERA ENERAL L L Y HAV HAVE E MORE TRAI NI NG.

25

WI TH THE POST STAN STAND DARDS.

THEY THEY HAV HAVE E TO COMPLY PL Y

THEY HAVE CONTI NUOUS TRAI NI NG WHI L E

80

12: 13: 59

1

EMPL OYED YED I N L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT AND AND THEY - -

2

 THE  THE COURT:

LET ME ASK YO YOU U ABOUT THA THAT FO FOR R J UST A

3

SECON SECOND.

SO TEL TEL L ME ABO ABOUT THE THE TRAI NI NG THAT THAT LAW LAW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT GET GET

4

I N USI NG A WEAPO EAP ON THAT HOL DS MORE TH THAN 10 ROUN ROUNDS.

WHAT KI ND OF

5

 TRA  TRAI NI NG DO THEY THEY GET BECA ECAUSE I WAS LOO LOOKI NG AT THI THI S AND I WAS

6

 TRYI  TRYI NG TO FI GURE I T OUT?

7 8

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

THERE' THERE' S NO EVI DENC ENCE I N THE THE RECO RECORD

ABO ABOUT THE THE TRAI NI NG OF HO HONORABLY RABLY RETI RED PEACE OFFI CERS. CERS.

9

 THE  THE COURT:

NO, ANY - - THEY THEY TALK TALK ABOUT POLI POLI CE

10

OFF FFII CERS. ERS.

11

USE TH T HESE WEAPON EAPONS, AND AND I READ ABOUT TH T HAT.

12

THEY THEY TAL TAL K ABO ABOUT HO HOW POL POL I CE OFF FFII CERS ERS AR ARE TRAI TRAI NED TO

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

THE PARTI CUL CUL AR ARGUMENT ENT WE WERE

13

MAKI AKI NG ABO ABOUT POL POL I CE OFF OFFII CERS AC ACTI VE DUTY OR OR AC ACTI VELY SERV S ERVII NG

14

L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT PERSO PERSON NNEL I S THE TYPES TYP ES OF OF CON CONFRONTATI TATI ONS THAT THAT

12: 14: 49 15

 THEY  THEY ENTER ENTER I NTO AND THE THE NEED EED FO FOR R LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY MAGAZI NES. ES.

16

 THE  THE COURT:

I ' M SORRY.

I DI SAG SAGREE WI TH YO YOU U.

THER THERE' E' S

17

A LOT LOT O OF F MENTI ENTI ON I N HERE, AND AND I ' M NOT GO GOI NG TO TAKE THE THE TI ME

18

NOW TO FI ND I T, BUT BUT THERE' THERE' S A LOT LOT OF OF MENTI ENTI ON I N HERE AN AND A LOT LOT

19

OF YOUR EXPERTS THAT TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE

20 21 22

 TRA  TRAI NI NG. MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

OKAY. KAY.

ABSOLUTELY. LUTELY. SO YO YOU U CONCEDE THA THAT.

ALL RI GHT.

23

NOW SO L ET ME ASK YOU YOU ABO ABOUT THI S BECAU BECAUSE SE THAT' THAT' S - - YO YOU U RAI RAI SE

24

I T, AND SI NCE YOU RAI SE I T, I ' M QUESTI ESTI ONI NG YOU ON I T.

25

BY THE THE WAY, L ET ME KNOW I F YOU YOU NEED A BREAK BREAK..

OKAY.

I APOL APOL OGI ZE FO FOR R

81

12: 15: 23

1

GOI NG SO L ONG.

2 3

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

I T' S OKAY.

WHAT KI ND OF TRA TRAI NI NG DOES A POLI POLI CE

4

OFFI CER GET I N USI NG THESE WEAPO EAPONS WI TH A MAGAZI AGAZI NE OF OF MORE THAN

5

10 ROU ROUNDS?

6

WHAT DO DOES TH THAT TRAI TRAI NI NG CONSI ST OF, DO YOU KN KNO OW? MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

AGAI N, THER THERE' E' S NO PARTI PARTI CULAR

7

EVI EVI DENC ENCE I N THE THE RECO ECORD.

8

ENFO ENFORCEMENT PERSO ERSONNEL HAVE TO TO GO THROUGH THE ACADEM ACADEMY.

9 10

 THE  THE COURT:

I N GENER ENERAL, AL, I KN KNO OW THAT THAT L AW

WHAT DO THEY THEY DO AT THE THE ACADEMY?

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

SO THER THERE' E' S TRAI TRAI NI NG REQU EQUI REMENTS ENTS

11

 THA  THAT ARE ESTA ESTABLI SHED SHED BY THE THE PEAC PEACE OFFI CERS' ERS' STAN STANDARDS AND

12

 TRA  TRAI NI NG COMMI SSI SSI ON POST. POST.

13 14 12: 16: 08 15

 THE  THE COURT:

WI TH REGARDS TO THE THE WEAPO EAPON NS.

LET' S

FORG FO RGET ABO ABOUT THE THE LAW AND AND ADVI SAL OF OF RI GHTS AN AND ALL THAT. THAT.  TALK  TALK ABOUT THE THE WEAPO EAPON NS.

L ET' S

SO WHAT KI ND OF TRA TRAI NI NG DOES A LAW

16

ENFO ENFORCEMENT GET WI TH REGARDS REGARDS TO TO A WEAP EAPON THAT USES USES A LARG L ARGE E

17

CAPACI APACI TY MAGAZI AZI NE?

18

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

I N GENER ENERA AL, AGAI N, I DON' T HAVE THE THE

19

EVI DENC ENCE, AND AND THE THE EVI DENC ENCE I S NO NOT I N THE THE RECO RECORD, BUT BUT I N

20

GENERA ENERAL L , L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT PERSO PERSONNEL NEED TO BE QUALI FI ED I N THE THE

21

USE OF OF PAR P ARTI TI CUL AR FI REAR EARMS.

22 23 24 25

 THE  THE COURT:

WHAT DOES THA THAT MEAN EAN?

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

SO TO QUALI FY, I T' S MY UNDERSTAN ERSTANDI NG

 THA  THAT THEY THEY HAVE TO DEMONSTRA STRATE PRO PROFI CI ENC ENCY.  THE  THE COURT:

I N WHAT?

82

12: 16: 40

1

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

2

 THE  THE COURT:

3

I N THE THE USE OF THE THE FI REAR EARM.

WHI CH MEAN EANS WHAT?

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

BEI NG ABL ABL E TO FI RE ACC ACCURATELY, BEI NG

4

ABL ABL E TO ASSEM ASSEMBL E AND DI SASSEM SASSEMBL E, STUFF STUFF LI L I KE THAT. THAT.

5

SURE SURE THERE WOUL D BE TRAI NI NG ON HOW TO SAFEL SAFELY Y STO ST ORE A FI REARM REARM.

6

I KN KNO OW FO FOR R L AW ENFO ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT PERSON PERSONNEL L OSI NG A SI DEARM EARM I S A VERY VERY

7

BAD BAD THI THI NG.

8

AND AND I ' M

SO THERE THERE ARE ARE A L OT OF OF SAFETY SAF ETY MEASURES EASURES I N PL ACE ACE TO

 TRA  TRAI N LAW ENFO ENFOR RCEMENT ENT ON HOW TO SAFELY SAFELY STORE THEI THEI R FI REAR EARMS.

9

 THE  THE COURT:

OKAY. KAY.

AS YO YOU U PRO PROBABLY KNOW, I ' M SOMEWHAT

10

FAMI L I AR WI TH FI REARM REARMS.

11

WHO WANTS TO GO HUNTI HUNTI NG, AND THEY GO THROUGH A J UN UNII OR HUNTI HUNTI NG

12

COURSE AND AND THEY THEY TEACH HI M THE THE VERY SAME TH THI NG THAT THAT THAT THAT OF OFFI CER

13

L EARNS EARNS WHEN HE OR OR SHE GOES TO TO THE POL POL I CE ACAD ACADEM EMY.

14

L OADED. ED.

12: 17: 48 15

I T.

SO YO YOU U HAVE A YO YOU UNG BOY OR OR YO YOU UNG GI RL

EVERY EVERY GU GUN I S

MUZZL ZZL E CONTROL TROL .

HOW TO STORE STORE I T.

HOW TO TAKE CARE CARE OF

HOW TO MAI NTAI TAI N I T.

HOW TO CLEAN LEAN I T.

HOW NOT TO POI POI NT I T

16

AT SOMEON EONE AND AND TO KN KNO OW WHEREVER EREVER YOU YOU' RE POI NTI NG I T TH THERE MAY BE

17

SOM SOMEON EONE THERE OR SOM SOMETH ETHI NG THAT YOU MAY I NJ URE.

18 19 20 21

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

OKAY?

YES. YES.

SO I N OTHER THER WORDS, THE THE DI FFEREN FFERENC CE BETWEEN EEN

 THE  THE TRA TRAI NI NG THA THAT A POLI POLI CE OFFI CER GETS WI TH A 3030- ROUND MAGAZI AZI NE AND AND AN ARAR- 15 REAL REAL L Y I S NO NO DI FFERENT ERENT THAN THAN THE THE TRAI NI NG

22

 THA  THAT YO YOU U GI VE TO A J UNI OR HUNTER WHO I S LEAR LEARNI NG HOW TO OR I S

23

 TRYI  TRYI NG TO GET A HUNTI NG LI CENSE ENSE,, WI TH THE THE EXC EXCEPTI ON THA THAT THE THE

24

OFFI CER I S GOI NG TO GO TO THE THE RANGE AND I S GOI NG TO SHO SHOOT MORE

25

ROUNDS, AND AND AS YO YOU POI POI NTED TED OUT EARLY EARLY ON, THEY LEARN L EARN HOW TO BE BE

83

12: 18: 34

1

MORE ACCU ACCURATE WI TH A WEAPO EAPON.

2

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

3

 THE  THE COURT:

4 5 6

RI GHT?

YES. YES.

OKAY. KAY.

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

ALTHO ALTHOUGH, I WOUL D NOT CONCEDE CEDE THAT THAT

 THEI  THEI R TRA TRAI NI NG WOULD BE THE THE SAM SAME.

I WOULDN LDN' T GO THA THAT FAR, FAR, YO YOU UR

HONOR.

7

 THE  THE COURT:

THER THERE' E' S NOTHI THI NG I N THE THE RECO ECORD THA THAT

8

I NDI CATES TES - - THER THERE' E' S J UST THI THI S CONCLUSI LUSI ON.

9

DI SCU SCUSSI SSI ON THA THAT TH THEI R TRA TRAI NI NG I S BETTER ETTER.

10

SEAL SEAL TEAM 6 GETS.

11

I T' S BETTER BETTER THAN THAN THE THE ARM ARMY GETS. GETS.

12

WEAPON EAPON.

13 14 12: 19: 27 15 16 17 18

THER THERE' E' S J UST THI THI S I T' S BETTER ETTER THA THAN

I T' S BETTER THAN THAN THE THE NATI ONAL GUARD ARD GETS. THE THE FACT FACT I S THAT THAT A WEAPON EAPON I S A

A FI REARM REARM I S A FI REARM REARM, AND AND EVERYBO EVERYBODY LEARNS LEARNS THE THE SAME

 THI  THI NG, AND THE THE ONLY THI THI NG THEY THEY LEARN LEARN WHEN THEY' THEY' RE PEAC PEACE OFFI CERS CERS I S THEY THEY LEAR L EARN N THE THE FOL FOL L OWI NG:

THEY THEY LEAR L EARN N TO GO TO

SCHO SCHOOL , AND AND THEY L EARN TO HOPEFULL EF ULL Y I DENTI FY WHEN TO SHOOT AND WHEN NOT TO SHOO SHOOT, AND TO SHOO SHOOT AND TO SHOO SHOOT ACCURATEL ACCURATEL Y. MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

I KN KNO OW THAT THAT L AW ENFO ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT ARE ARE

 TRA  TRAI NED I N SHO SHOOT- DON' T- SHO SHOOT SCEN SCENA ARI OS.

I DON' T KNOW THA THAT

19

HYPOTH YPOTHETI ETI CAL I NDI VI DUAL WHO I S TRAI TRAI NED I N THE THE USE USE OF OF A FI F I REAR EARM

20

WOUL D ALSO ALSO HAVE AVE SI MI L AR NO- SHO SHOOT TRA TRAII NI NG.

21

 THE  THE COURT:

I WI LL CONCEDE THA THAT.

BUT CERTA ERTAII NLY

22

PEO PEOPL E I N THE ARMED FORC RCES ES GET TH THAT SAME TRAI TRAI NI NG BECAU BECAUSE YO Y OU

23

KNOW FULL ULL WELL EL L AS I DO THAT A MEMBER OF OF THE ARMED FO FORCES WHO

24

SHO SHOOTS A CI VI L I AN FACES ACES SOM SOME PRETTY PRETT Y TOU TOUGH CONSEQU SEQUENCES. ENCES.

25

 THEY  THEY LEAR LEARN AS WELL, SHO SHOOT- DON' T- SHO SHOOT.

SO

BUT MY BASI C POI POI NT WAS

84

12: 20: 23

1

BASI CALL Y THI THI S:

2

L AW ENFORCEM ENFORCEMENT OF OFFI CERS WOUL D GET, ET, WHETH ETHER TH THEY WERE USI NG A

3

WEAPO EAP ON THAT HAS A 3030- RO ROUN UND MAGAZI AGAZI NE OR OR A 10- RO ROUN UND MAGAZI AGAZI NE?

4 5

WHAT I S THE THE DI FF FFER EREN ENC CE I N THE THE TRA TRAI NI NG THA THAT

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

I DON' T KN KNOW THAT THAT THER THERE E ARE ARE

DI FF FFER EREN ENT T TRAI TRAI NI NG PRO PROTO TOC COLS - -

6

 THE  THE COURT:

THER THERE E ARE NOT.

ABSOLUTELY LUTELY NONE.

SO MY

7

QUESTI ON I S WHEN I N THE THE STACK OF EVI DENCE ENCE THAT THAT I SEE HERE HERE THEY

8

SAY, WELL EL L , OFFI CERS SHO SHOUL D BE ALL ALL OWED TO HAVE THESE THESE BECAU BECAUSE

9 10 11

 THEY  THEY HAVE GREATER EATER TRA TRAI NI NG, I ASK MYSELF YSELF::

GREATER EATER TRA TRAI NI NG

 THEN  THEN,, ARE YO YOU U KI DDI NG ME, THA THAN A MEMBER OF THE THE SEA SEAL TEAM TEAM 6 GROUP?

ARE YOU KI DDI NG ME?

GREATER REATER TRAI NI NG THAN A MEMBER OF

12

 THE  THE NATI ONAL GUARD?

13

 THA  THAT A RETI RED POLI POLI CE OFFI CER HAS BETTER ETTER SKI SKI LLS, LL S, BETTER ETTER

14

 TRA  TRAI NI NG THA THAN A RETI RED SEA SEAL TEAM TEAM SI X MEMBER? ER?

12: 21: 35 15

ARE YO YOU U KI DDI NG ME?

ARE YO YOU U TELLI NG ME

ARE YO YOU U TELLI NG

ME TH T HAT BECAUSE BECAUSE OF THI S SO SOMEHOW OR ANO ANOTHER ALL AL L OF THESE OTHER

16

PEO PEOPL E TH T HAT HAVE HO HONORABL RABL Y SERVED THI THI S COU COUNTRY AND AND PUT THEI R

17

L I VES VES ON ON THE THE LI L I NE - - MANY OF OF THEM THEM HAVE AVE LO L OST LEG L EGS, S, ARM ARMS, SO ON

18

- - BUT BUT YO Y OU CAN CAN' T PO P OSSESS SSESS A MAGAZI AGAZI NE TH THAT HAS HAS MORE THAN THAN 10

19

ROUNDS.

20

BUT BUT WE' RE GOI NG TO MAKE THI THI S EXCEPT EXCEPTII ON.

THE THE

21

EXCEPT EXCEPTII ON I S THAT THAT I F YO YOU U WORK FOR FOR THE THE MOVI E I NDUSTRY, YO YOU U CAN CAN

22

HAVE I T.

23

AND WHAT I ' M TRYI TRYI NG TO DO I S I ' M TRYI TRYI NG TO FI GURE OUT - - YO YOU U

24

USED THE THE WORD COMMON SENSE SENSE EAR EARL L I ER ON ON, AND AND I ' M TRYI NG TO FI GURE

25

OUT WHERE I S THE THE CO COMMON SENSE I N THAT THAT ON ONE.

I F YOU' RE A RETI RED POLI POLI CE OFFI CER, ER, YO YOU U CAN HAVE I T.

I KN KNO OW J UDGE

85

12: 22: 17

1

REI NHARDT ON ONCE MADE ADE A SI MI L AR ARG ARGU UMENT ENT I N ANO ANOTHER CASE, CASE, AND AND I

2

AGREE WI TH HI M.

3

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

4

 THE  THE COURT:

WOUL D THAT THAT BE SI L VEI RA? RA?

I BELI EVE EVE I T I S.

MY QUESTI ESTI ON I S: I F

5

 YOU  YOU' RE TRYI TRYI NG TO PRO PROTECT TECT THE THE PUB PUBLI C, I F THI THI S I S REALL EALLY Y WHAT

6

 YOU  YOU' RE TRYI TRYI NG TO DO, DON' T YO YOU U PRO PROTECT TECT THE THE PUB PUBLI C J UST AS WELL

7

BY HAVI HAVI NG A MEMBER OF SEAL TEAM TEAM 6 WHO HAS, FOR EXAMPL E, A GL GL OCK

8

17 TH T HAT HE' S WALKI ALKI NG AROUND WI TH I N THE EVENT EVENT TH T HERE HAPP HAPPEN ENS S TO TO

9

BE - - FOR EXAMPL E, WHO I S TH THE CON CONGRESSM RESSMAN THAT WAS SHOT SHOT BY THE

10 11 12

FELLO FELLOW W-MR. ECHEVER ECHEVERRI RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

CONGRESSMAN SCALI SCALI SE.

YEAH YEAH, SCA SCALI SE; SE; YO YOU U HAPPEN TO HAVE A

13

MEMBER OF THE SEAL TEAM T EAM SI X WHO HAS A GL GL OCK 17 I N HI S PO P OCK CKET, ET,

14

HE MI GHT BE ABLE TO STOP STOP TH T HAT KI ND OF SHO SHOOTI NG, RI GHT?

12: 23: 12 15

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

THAT' THAT' S A POL POL I CY CHOI CE FO FOR R THE THE

16

PEO PEOPL E TO DI VI DE THRO THROUGH DEMOCR CRACY. ACY.

THERE ARE I MPORTAN PORTANT T

17

SEPARATI SEPARATI ON OF POW POWERS, ERS, PRI NCI PLES, PL ES, THAT THAT AR ARE VI NDI CATED BY THE THE

18

APPLI CATI ON OF I NTERM TERMEDI EDI ATE SCR SCRUTI NY TO THI THI S KI ND OF GUN

19

CONTRO TROL LEGI LEGI SLATI SLATI ON.

20

 THE  THE COURT:

IT -CAN YO YOU U THI THI NK OF AN EXA EXAMPLE WHERE ERE THE THE

21

STATE HAS EVER SAI D I N CONNECTI ON WI TH TRYI NG TO DEFEN EF END D

22

L EGI EGI SLATI SL ATI ON THAT THAT WAS PASSE P ASSED D THAT WOUL D GI VE TH THE GOVERNM VERNMENT

23

POWER WHERE THE ST STATE ATE COM COMES I N AND SAI D, YOU KNOW, WE DON' T

24

HAVE TH THE PO P OWER TO TO DO THI S; WE DON' T HAVE TH THE AUTHORI TY TO DO

25

 THI  THI S; WE DON' T HAVE THE THE DI SCR SCRETI ON TO DO THI THI S.

86

12: 23: 51

1 2

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

AGAI N, THI THI S I S NOT I N THE THE REC RECO ORD AND

 THI  THI S I S FAR OUTSI DE THE THE BOUNDS OF THI THI S LI TI GATI ON, BUT - - AND

3

I ' M ON TOTALLY TALLY FAMI LI AR WI TH THE THE DET DETA AI LS - - BUT I T' S MY

4

UNDERSTANDI NG THAT THAT WI TH THE THE ENACTM ENACTMENT ENT OF OF PROPO PROPOSI SI TI ON 8, THE

5

GOVERNM VERNMENT ENT DECI DECI DED I T WASN' ASN' T GO GOI NG TO BE DEF DEFEN END DI NG PROPO PROPOSI SI TI ON

6

8 --

7 8 9

 THE  THE COURT:

THA THAT' S ABSOLUTELY LUTELY TRU TRUE.

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

SO THAT THAT WAS A SI TUATI ON WHERE THE

GOVERNMENT DI DI SAGREED WI TH THE ENACTMENT OF OF THE PEOPL PEOPLE E BECAUSE

10

OF I TS PERC PERCEPTI ON, RI GHTFULL TFULL Y SO, THA THAT I T VI VI OLATED THE THE

11

CONSTI STI TUTI ON.

12 13 14 12: 24: 32 15 16 17

SO THAT THAT WOUL D BE AN EXAMPL E.

 THE  THE COURT:

OKAY. KAY.

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

GOT YO YOU U. I ' D ALSO LI KE TO CLARI LARI FY:

I KNOW

 THA  THAT YO YOU UR HONOR CHARACTERI TERI ZED CALI FO FOR RNI A' S POSS POSSES ESSI SI ON BAN AS DI SARMAMENT AND AND AS A POLI CY CHO CHOI CE THAT WAS OF OFF THE TABLE TABL E AND AND WAS CONSTI TUTI TUTI ONALLY ALL Y SUSPECT. SUSPECT.

AND AND I WOUL D L I KE TO J UST CL CL ARI ARI FY

 THA  THAT CALI FO FOR RNI A' S POSS POSSES ESSI SI ON BAN DOES NOT DI SAR SARM ANYBO YBODY.

18

I NDI VI DUALS ARE STI L L PERMI TTED TO POSSESS POSSESS AS MANY ANY MAGAZI AZI NES

19

 THA  THAT ARE CALI FO FOR RNI A COMPLI ANT AS THEY THEY WI SH AND CAN, AT LEAST LEAST

20

WI TH RESP RESPECT ECT TO TO THE LARG LARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NE BAN, BAN, CAN CAN HAVE AS

21

MANY ANY WEAPON EAPONS AS THEY CAN L AWFUL L Y POSSE POSSESS SS TO EXERCI EXERCI SE THEI R

22

SELF SELF-- DEFENSE EFENSE RI RI GHTS.

23 24 25

 THER  THERE E ARE NUMERO EROUS OPTI ONS FO FOR R COMPLYI NG WI TH CALI FO FORN RNI A' S POSSESSI POSSESSI ON BAN BAN.

I F YOU YOUR HONOR HAD NOT ENJ ENJ OI NED

 THE  THE STATU STATUTE TE ON J ULY 1ST, 1ST, I T WOULDN LDN' T HAVE AUTO TOM MATI CALL Y

87

12: 25: 21

1

REND RENDERED ALL ALL I NDI VI DUALS AL S WHO OWNED GRAND RANDFATHERED LCM' S

2

CRII MI NALS. CR ALS.

3

COMPLY PL Y WI TH I NCL UDI NG STORI STORI NG THEM THEM OUT OF OF STATE, ST ATE, SELL SEL L I NG THEM THEM

4

THERE WERE DI SPO SPOSAL OPT OPTII ONS THAT THAT THE THE OWNERS CO COUL D

 TO AN FFL, FFL , FEDER FEDERA ALLY LL Y FI REAR EARMS LI CENSE ENSE DEALER EALER..

ONE OF THE THE

5

EXCEPT EXCEPTII ONS TH THAT SEEMS TO BE LO LOST I N THE THE DI DI SCUSSI SCUSSI ON ABO ABOUT TH T HE

6

POSSESSI POSSESSI ON BAN BAN I S THE THE DEFI DEFI NI TI ON OF A LARGE CAPAC CAPACII TY MAGAZI AZI NE

7

I N PENAL PENAL COD CODE SECTI ON 16740 WHI CH I N SUBD SUBDI VI SI ON A TAKES TAKES OU OUT

8

FROM THE THE DEFI NI TI ON OF LAR L ARG GE CAPA CAPAC CI TY MAGAZI AZI NES, L ARG ARGE CAPA CAPAC CI TY

9

MAGAZI AGAZI NES TH THAT HAVE HAVE BEEN BEEN PERM PERMANENTL ANENTLY Y MODI FI ED. ED.

10

SO WI TH THE THE PERM PERMANENT ANENT MODI FI CATI CATI ON OPTI PT I ON, SOM SOMEON EONE

11

WHO OWNS A GRAN GRAND DFATH ATHERED ERED L CM CAN TAKE I T TO T O A GUN GUNSMI TH, AND AND A

12

GUNSMI TH HAS HAS AN EXCEPT EXCEPTII ON I N THE THE PO P OSSESSI ON BAN BAN, TO MODI FY A

13

L ARGE CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NE SO SO THAT I T CAN HOL D NO MORE TH THAN 10

14

ROUNDS OF AMMUNI TI ON.

12: 26: 23 15 16 17 18

I N THAT THAT CASE, CASE, THE OWNER KEEPS KEEP S POSSE POSSESSI SSI ON

AND AND KEEPS TI TLE TL E OF OF TH T HEI R MAGAZI AZI NE, AND AND THEY THEY CAN CAN STI L L USE THAT THAT MAGAZI AGAZI NE I N SELF SEL F- DEFEN EF ENSE SE OR OR FOR FOR ANY ANY OTHER OTHER LAWFUL PURPOSE PURPOSE TH T HAT  THEY  THEY MAY DESI RE.  THE  THE COURT:

I F YO YOU U WERE ERE A WOMAN AND YO YOU U WERE ERE AT HOME

19

- - I ' M USI NG A WOMAN BECAU BECAUSE SE THERE THERE WAS A CASE THAT THAT I CAN CAN' T

20

REMEMBER THE - -

21 22 23

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:  THE  THE COURT:

YEAH YEAH.

SUSAN SUSAN GONZAL ZAL EZ. AND YO YOU U' RE AT HOME AND YO YOU U' RE BY

 YOU  YOURSELF SELF AND SOME PEOPLE BREAK EAK I N YO YOU UR HOUSE, SE, OR YO YOU U HAVE YO YOU UR

24

DAUGHTER OR OR CHI CHI L D WI TH YOU AND AND SOME PEOPL P EOPLE E BREAK I NTO YOUR

25

HOUSE, SE, AND AND YOU KN KNO OW THEY' THEY' RE NOT GOI NG TO DO YOU ANY ANY GOOD.

88

12: 27: 14

1

 THEY'  THEY' RE EI THER THER GOI NG TO RAPE OR KI LL YO YOU U OR BOTH. TH.

2

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

3 4 5 6 7

 THE  THE COURT:

OR TRY. TRY.

OR TRY. TRY.

AND YO YOU U HAVE YO YOU UR GLOC LOCK 17 WI TH

A PERM PERMANENTL ANENTLY Y MODI FI ED MAGAZI AGAZI NE TH T HAT ON ONL Y HOL DS 10 10 ROUN ROUNDS, AND AND  YOU  YOU FI RED ALL 10 ROUNDS BECA ECAUSE YO YOU U' RE SCA SCARED.

YOU YO U HAVEN' EN' T

BEEN TRAI NED TO HI T WHAT YOU YOU' RE SHO SHOOTI NG AT, BUT BUT YOU YOU' RE TRYI NG  TO PRO PROTECT TECT YO YOU URSELF SELF OR YO YOU UR DAUGHTER, TER, AND YO YOU U FI RE ALL 10

8

ROUNDS, AND AND THOSE PEO PEOPL E ARE ARE STI L L COM COMI NG AT YOU YOU.

9

ARE ARE YOU YOU NOT DI DI SARM SARMED AT THAT THAT POI POI NT I N TI ME?

10 11

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

YOU CAN HAVE ANY ANY N NU UMBER OF MAGAZI AGAZI NES

ON YO YOU UR POSSESS POSSESSII ON.

12 13

ARE YO YOU U OR

 THE  THE COURT: REALI STI CALLY?

14

WHAT I S SHE SHE GOI NG TO DO, COUNSEL, SEL,

REALI STI CALLY.

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

12: 28: 30 15

 THE  THE COURT:

LET' LET' S BE REAL.

THI THI S I S SPECU SPECUL ATI ON, YO YOU UR HONOR.

THI THI S I S NOT SPEC SPECULATI ON.

THI THI S I S NO MORE

16

SPECU SPECUL L ATI ON THAN THAN TO SAY TH T HAT BECAUSE BECAUSE I F YO YOU U HAVE A LOT LOT OF OF

17

MAGAZI AGAZI NES OU OUT TH T HERE THERE' S GO GOI NG TO BE A LO LOT OF OF PEO PEOPL E TH THAT

18

ARE ARE KI L L ED. ED.

19

PROBA PROBABLY BLY GOI NG TO BE I NJ URED AND AND KI L L ED BECAU BECAUSE SE OF OF THE THE FAC F ACT T

20

YES, THERE THERE ARE ARE GOI NG TO BE PEOPL PEOPLE E THAT THAT ARE ARE

 THA  THAT THER THERE E ARE GUNS.

BUT I F YO YOU U HAVE SOMEONE WHO HAS FI RED ALL

21

10 ROUNDS, AND AND THEY GET TO THE THE 11T 11TH H ROUND, AND AND THEY PULL THE

22

 TRI  TRI GGER AND ALL THA THAT HAPPENS PPENS I S " CLI CK, " THEY THEY ARE EFFECTI EFFECTI VELY

23

DI SARM SARMED. ED.

YES, I T I S TRU TRUE THAT THAT I F THEY THEY HAPPEN HAPPEN TO CARRY ARRY ARO AROUND

24

WI TH THEM 20 1010- ROUND MAGAZI AGAZI NES WI TH THEM, ASSUMI NG THAT THEY THEY

25

HAVE THE THE TI TI ME, AND AND OF COURSE AS TH THE EVI DENCE ENCE SHO SHOWS, PEO PE OPL E ARE

89

12: 29: 10

1

NERVO ERVOUS, RI GHT, AND AND PERHAPS PERHAPS THEY J UST WOKE UP, UP, AND AND THEY' THEY' RE NO NOT

2

GOI NG TO BE AS LI L I KELY KEL Y TO T O BE ABLE TO CHAN CHANG GE TH THE MAGAZI AGAZI NE AS

3

QUI CKLY CKLY AS THEY WOUL D I F THEY HAD THAT GL GL OCK 17 WI TH 17 ROU ROUNDS

4

I N THE MAGAZI AGAZI NE.

5

ESSEN ESSENTI TI ALL Y DI DI SAR SARMED. ED.

6

SO WHEN YO YOU U GET TO T O THAT THAT 11TH 11TH ROUND, YO YOU U' RE

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

I WOUL D DI SAGREE SAGREE WI TH THAT THAT

7

CHARAC ARACTERI TERI ZATI ON, YO YOU UR HONOR.

8

A FI REAR EARM I N THEI THEI R POSSESSI POSSESSI ON.

9

MAGAZI AGAZI NE THAT THAT HEL HELD D L I VE AM AMMUNI TI ON UP TO 10 ROUNDS.

10

I T I S NOT DI SARM SARMAMENT. ENT.

THEY THEY HAD

THEY THEY WERE ERE ABL ABL E TO USE A

HAVE AVE AS MANY ANY MAGAZI AZI NES ON ON THEI THEI R PERSON.

THEY COUL D

TO ME, THAT THAT I S ARM ARMED. ED.

11

 THE  THE PLAI NTI FFS HAVE PRES PRESEN ENTED TED NO EVI EVI DENC ENCE TO SUB SUBSTAN STANTI ATE THI THI S

12

 TYPE OF SPECU SPECULATI ON I N THE THE STATE STATE OF CALI FO FOR RNI A.

THEY THEY PRES PRESEN ENTED TED

13

NO CASES CASES I N WHI CH ANYO ANYON NE I N THE THE STATE ST ATE OF OF CAL CAL I FORN RNII A HAS HAS BEEN

14

PREVENTED PREVENTED F ROM EFF EF FECTI VELY VELY DEF DEFEN END DI NG THEM THEMSELVES SEL VES NOT

12: 30: 06 15

WI THSTAN THSTAND DI NG THE THE EXI STI NG L ARG ARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AZI NE BAN AND AND THE THE

16

MODI FI CATI ON OPTI ON.

17

 THE  THE COURT:

18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

DOES THE THE STATE STATE KEEP KEEP THO THOSE KI ND OF

STATI TATI STI CS? MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

I DON' T KN KNO OW THAT THAT THE THE STATE HAS THAT THAT

I NFO FOR RMATI ON -  THE  THE COURT:

YOU YO U DON' T.

YOU YO U DON' T.

BECA ECAUSE THE THE

EVI EVI DENC ENCE, I N FACT, FACT, AS I READ EAD I T I S THA THAT THE THE STATE STATE DOESN' ESN' T KEEP KEEP  THA  THAT KI ND OF I NFO FOR RMATI ON.

SO WE DON' T KNOW WHETHER ETHER I T HAS

HAPPEN APP ENED ED OR HASN' ASN' T HAPP HAPPEN ENED ED.. MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

WHAT WE DO KN KNO OW - -

90

12: 30: 31

1 2

 THE  THE COURT:

AND THE THE ENTI ENTI TY THA THAT HAS THE THE BEST EST ABI LI TY

 TO TELL US WHETHER ETHER OR NOT THA THAT HAS HAPPENED PPENED OR HAS NOT HAPPENED PPENED

3

WOULD ULD BE THE STAT STATE. E.

4

EFFEC EFFECT.

5

BUT BUT YO YOU DON' T HAVE HAVE ANY ANY RECORD RECORDS S TO THAT

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

THE ATTO ATTORN RNEY EY GENERAL ENERAL HAS HAS PRESEN PRESENTE TED D

6

EVI DENCE, AS YOUR HONOR KNOWS, THAT SHOWS TH T HAT ON AVERAGE AVERAGE FAR F AR

7

L ESS TH T HAN 10 ROU ROUNDS OF OF AMMUNI TI ON ARE USED USED I N SELF SEL F- DEFEN EF ENSE. SE.

8

 THE  THE COURT:

9

BUT AVERA ERAGE I S 2. 2.

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

AND AND OFTEN TEN ZERO.

10

BRANDI SHI SHI NG OF THE THE FI REAR EARM - -

11

 THE  THE COURT:

SUR SURE.

AND I F YO YOU U THR THROW THE THE GUN AT

12

SOM SOMEON EONE, THAT MI GHT VERY WELL EL L WORK.

13

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

14

OFTEN TEN THE MERE

I DON' T KNO KNOW THAT THAT WOUL D WORK BECAU BECAUSE

 YOU  YOU' D BE DI SAR SARMI NG YO YOU URSELF SELF - -

12: 31: 03 15

 THE  THE COURT:

I WOULDN LDN' T WANT MY WI FE OR DAUGHTER TO

16

HAVE TO DEPEND EP END ON A WEAPO EAPON THAT SHOOTS 2. 2. 2 BUL BUL L ETS. ETS.

17

POI POI NT I ' M MAKI NG TO YOU I S, LOO LOOK, RI GHT NO NOW I T I S PER PERFECTLY FECTLY

18

L EGAL EGAL FOR SOMEON EONE TO POSS POSSES ESS S A GL GL OCK 17 WI TH A 1717- ROUND

19

MAGAZI AZI NE AND AND USE I T FO F OR SELFSELF - DEFEN EF ENSE SE I N THEI THEI R HO HOME I F THEY THEY HAV HAVE E

20

 TO.  TO.

SO THE

HOPEFULL PEFULLY, Y, THEY THEY NEVER EVER WOULD HAVE TO TO,, BUT THEY THEY CAN.

BUT

21

ONC NCE E YO Y OU TAKE TAKE AWAY THAT 7 RO ROUN UND DS, AND NOW YOU' RE DOWN TO 10

22

ROUNDS, YO YOU U BETTER BETTER HO HOPE AND AND PRAY TH T HAT YO YOU HI T WHATEVER I T I S

23

 YOU  YOU' RE SHO SHOOTI NG WI TH THO THOSE 10 ROUNDS.

24

NOW WHY SHO SHOULD ULD THE GOVERNM VERNMENT BE SO ARROGANT ARROGANT AS TO

25

 TELL A LAW- ABI DI NG CI TI ZEN, EN, SOMEONE WHO HAS NOT VI OLATED LATED THE THE

91

12: 31: 50

1

L AW I N ANY ANY WAY, HAS NO NOT SHOT ANYO ANYON NE, HAS NO NOT I NJ URED ANYO ANYON NE,

2

WHY SHO SHOULD ULD THE GOVERNM VERNMENT BE SO ARROG ARROGANT AS TO TEL TEL L THAT WOMAN:

3

 YOU  YOU KNOW WHAT, TO TOO O BAD, SO SAD SAD.

I F YO YOU U HAD 17 ROUNDS, YO YOU U

4

MI GHT HAVE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO STO STOP TH T HE ASSAI L ANT, ANT, BUT BUT YO Y OU ONL Y HAD HAD

5

10.

6

SO SORR SORRY. Y.

AND AND NOW YO YOU U' VE BEEN RAPED RAPED,, AND AND NOW YO YOU U' RE DEAD, EAD, AND AND WE' RE BUT BUT YOU YOU KN KNO OW, THAT' THAT' S J UST THE THE WAY LI FE GO GOES.

7

I SN' SN' T THAT THAT REALLY REALL Y WHERE YOU YOU ARE? ARE?

8

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

9

THE THE DECL ECL ARATI ARATI ON OF LU L UCY AL AL L EN

DEMONSTRATE STRATES S TH T HAT ON AVERAG AVERAGE E 71 71 PERCENT ERCENT OF PUBLI BLI C MASS

10

SHO SHOOTI NGS I NVOL VE I NDI VI DUALS WHO L AWFUL L Y ACQ ACQUI RED THEI R

11

FI REARM REARMS AN AND MAGAZI AZI NE AC ACCESSORI ESSORI ES.

12

THE THE STATE STATE I S NO NOT SAYI NG

 THA  THAT ANY PAR PARTI CULAR I NDI VI DUALS ARE DANGERO EROUS.

THE THE STATE STATE I S

13

SAYI NG THAT THAT L ARGE CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES ARE DAN DANG GEROU EROUS AND AND PEO PEOPL E

14

CAN - -

12: 32: 45 15

 THE  THE COURT:

BUT NOT I F THEY' THEY' RE POSS POSSES ESSED SED BY RETI RED

16

LAW ENFO ENFOR RCEMENT ENT POLI POLI CE OFF OFFII CERS, ERS, 80- YEAR YEAR- OLD POLI POLI CE OFF OFFII CERS ERS

17

WHO MAY BE SUFF SUFFERI ERI NG FRO ROM M MACUL ACUL AR DEGEN DEGENERAT ERATII ON AND AND WHO - -

18

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

I COMPL ETEL ETELY Y UN UNDERSTAN ERSTAND D YO YOU UR HONOR

19

DI SAGREES SAGREES WI TH THE THE LI NES THAT THAT HAVE BEEN DRAW RAWN BY THE THE PEOPL PEOPLE. E.

20

COMPL ETEL ETELY Y UN UNDERSTAND.

21

 THE  THE CASE TO TOD DAY.

OR AT LEAST LE AST THAT' THAT' S WHAT I T SEEMS SEEMS TO BE

BUT UNDER I NTERM TERMEDI ATE SCR SCRUTI NY, I T' S NOT YO YOU UR

22

HONOR' S ROL E TO REDRAW RAW THO THOSE LI L I NES OR OR I NVAL VAL I DATE A STATUTE

23

COMPLETEL PL ETELY Y BECAU BECAUSE SE YOU YOU DON' T TH T HI NK THE THE LI L I NES ARE ARE PERFEC PERFE CT.

24 25

I

 THA  THAT' S FO FOR R THE THE DEMOCRATI C PRO PROCESS. ESS.  THE  THE COURT:

SO I F THE THE DEMOCRATI C PRO PROCESS RESU ESULTED I N

92

12: 33: 24

1 2

A DECI DECI SI ON THAT YO Y OU COULD ULD NOT HOL HOL D A MAGAZI AGAZI NE TH THAT HELD HEL D MORE  THA  THAN 7 ROUNDS?

3

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

THEN THEN THE THE STATE STARTS STARTS GETTI NG I NTO

4

PROBL EMATI C TERR TERRI TO TOR RY FROM A CONSTI TUTI TUTI ONAL PERSPEC PERSPECTI TI VE.

5

NEW YO YORK RK - - THE THE SECO SECOND CI RC RCU UI T I NVAL VAL I DATED THE THE 7- ROUND L OAD

6

L I MI T.

7

7- ROUND MAGAZ AGAZII NES THAT THAT ARE ARE READ READI L Y AVAI AVAI L ABL ABL E.

8

THE THE

ONE OF THE THE REASO REASONS WHY I S THERE THERE J UST AREN AREN' T MANY ANY THE THE REASO REASON N WHY

 THE  THE STATE STATE OF NEW YO YOR RK ENA ENACTED A 1010- ROUND MAGAZI NE CAPAC PACI TY

9

RESTRI ESTRI CTI ON I S THA THAT THO THOSE CA CAPACI PACI TY SI ZES AR ARE REA READ DI LY AVA AVAI LABLE LABLE

10

AND AND SOLD SOLD THRO HROUGHOUT TH THE COUN COUNTRY, BUT BUT THERE AREN' T MANY ANY 7- RO ROUN UND

11

MAGAZI AZI NES.

12

I ' D ALSO L I KE TO NOTE THAT THAT I N THE THE CASE CASE OF SUSAN SUSAN

13

GONZAL ZAL EZ - - THAT THAT WAS A CASE CASE I N F L ORI DA NO NOT I N THE THE STATE STATE OF OF

14

CALI FO FORN RNI A - - EVEN AFTER SUSAN SUSAN GONZAL ZAL EZ HAD HAD HER I NCI DENT, ENT, SHE SHE

12: 34: 07 15 16 17

WENT OUT AN AND BOUGHT A FI REARM.

I T WAS A 5- ROUND REVOL REVOL VER.

SHE

DI D NOT GO OUT AND AND GET A LARG L ARGE E CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NE EVEN EVEN THOUG THOUGH  THO  THOSE ARE AVAI LABLE LABLE I N THE THE STATE STATE OF FLO FL ORI DA.

SO WHAT WE HAVE

18

HERE I S THE THE COURT HAS HAS LEGI LEGI TI MATE CONCERN CERNS ABO ABOUT I NDI VI DUALS

19

BEI NG ABL ABL E TO PROTECT THEM THEMSELVES, SEL VES, BUT BUT I T' S BASED BASED ON

20

SPECU SPECULATI ON.

21

PEOP EOPL E OF OF CALI CALI FORN RNII A WERE CON CONFRO RON NTED TED WI TH DATA, DATA SHOW SHOWI NG

I T' S BASED ON " WHAT I F" SCEN SCENA ARI OS.

BUT THE THE

22

 THA  THAT I N A MAJ ORI TY OF PUB PUBLI C MASS SHO SHOOTI NGS, LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY

23

MAGAZI AZI NES ARE USED USED;; AND AND WHEN THEY' THEY' RE USED USED,, THE THE FATALI F ATALI TY AND AND

24

I NJ URY URY RATES RAT ES ARE MUCH UCH L ARGER ARGER TH THAN WHEN 10 ROUN ROUNDS OR OR LES LESS S ARE

25

USED I N THOSE PUBL PUBL I C MASS SHO SHOOTI NGS.

THAT THAT WAS AL AL SO SET FO F ORTH

93

12: 34: 50

1 2

I N THE THE DEC DECL L ARATI ARATI ON OF LU L UCY ALLEN ALL EN..  THE  THE NI NTH CI RCUI T I N FYOC FYOCK VERSU ERSUS S SUN SUNNYVA YVALE SAI SAI D THA THAT

3

 THE  THE DECLAR ECLARA ATI ON OF LUC LUCY ALLEN LL EN,, THE THE DECLAR ECLARA ATI ON OF PRO PROFESSO FESSOR

4

DONOHUE, THE EMPI RI CAL CAL EVI EVI DENCE ENCE THAT THAT THE THE STATE HAS HAS PROVI DED, ED,

5

I NCL UDI NG THE THE MAYORS AG AGAI NST I L L EGAL EGAL GU GUNS STUDY, THAT THAT THAT THAT I S

6

 THE,  THE, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, PREC PRECII SE TYPE OF EVI EVI DENC ENCE THA THAT THE THE STATE STATE

7

CAN CAN RELY ON TO SUBSTAN SUBSTANTI TI ATE I TS I NTEREST AND AND TO SHO SHOW A

8

REASO EASONABLE FI T.

9 10 11

 THE  THE COURT:

BUT WASN' SN' T THA THAT THE THE STUD STUDY THA THAT I - -

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

I T WAS.

- - ESSEN ESSENTI TI ALLY LL Y DI SSEC SSECTED TED, AND I ' VE YET TO

12

HEAR ANYBO ANYBOD DY - - I ' VE YET YET TO HEAR ANYON ANYONE TEL TELL L ME WHY I WAS WRONG

13

I N MY DI DI SSECTI SSECTI NG THAT THAT STUD STUDY.

14 12: 35: 37 15

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

WELL EL L , THE NUMBERS THAT YOUR YOUR HONOR

I DENTI ENTI FI ED I N YO YOU UR 1212- PAGE DI DI SSECTI SSECTI ON OF THE THE MAYORS AGAI NST

16

I L L EGAL EGAL GU GUNS STUD STUDY WERE NOT NECESSAR NECESSARII L Y ERRO ERRONEOU EOUS.

17

SOME OF THE ASSUM ASSUMPTI ONS WERE WRO RONG NG.

18 19 20

 THE  THE COURT:

WELL, THEY' THEY' RE ALL ACCURATE.

I DO THI THI NK

EVER EVERYTH YTHII NG I

SAI D I N THERE THERE WAS ACC ACCU URATE. RATE. MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

SO I F TH THERE WAS A MASS SHO SHOOTI NG THAT THAT

21

DOESN' ESN' T HAVE HAVE THE THE CAPACI CAPACI TY NUMBER, BER, I T' S NO NOT ACCU ACCURATE RATE TO T O ASSUM ASSUME

22

 THA  THAT A LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY MAGAZI NE WAS NOT USED SED I N THA THAT SHO SHOOTI NG.

23 24 25

 THE  THE COURT:

I S I T ACCURATE TO ASSU SSUME THA THAT I T WAS?

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

THE EVERYTO EVERYTOWN AMI CUS CUS BRI BRI EF THAT THAT WAS

FI L ED I N OPPOSI PPOSI TI ON TO PLAI PL AI NTI FF FFS S MOTI ON, AND EVER EVERYTO YTOW WN I S THE THE

94

12: 36: 13

1

SUCC SUCCESSO ESSOR R ORG ORGANI ANI ZATI ZATI ON TO THE THE MAYORS AYORS AGAI AGAI NST I L L EGAL EGAL GUNS, THEY THEY

2

SET SET FORTH RTH WHY SO SOME OF THE FACT FACTUAL UAL ASSUM ASSUMPTI ONS YO YOUR HO HONOR MADE ADE

3

WERE ERE I NCORRECT. ECT.

4

NOT THE THE CO COURT' S RO ROL E TO DI SSECT SSECT THI THI S TYPE OF EVI DENC ENCE.

5

COURT DI SMI SSED SSED MANY ANY MASS SHOOTI NGS TH T HAT OCC CCU URRED OUTSI TS I DE TH T HE

6

STATE OF OF CALI FO FOR RNI A, AND UNDER I NTERM TERMEDI EDI ATE SCR SCRUTI NY, THE THE

7

PEOPL PEOPLE E AND AND THE THE LEG L EGII SLATU SL ATURE RE ARE ARE ENTI ENTI TLED TL ED TO L OOK AT ANY ANY EVI DENCE ENCE

8

REASON REASONABLY BELI BEL I EVED TO BE RELEVAN REL EVANT T TO T O THE I SSUE AT HAN HAND AND AND

9

L OOKI NG AT OTH OTHER ER J URI SDI SDI CTI ONS TO SEE WHAT THEI THEI R EXPERI EXPERI ENC ENCES

10

ARE ARE AN AND HOW EFFEC EFF ECTI TI VE THEI THEI R GUN SAFETY LEG L EGII SLATI SL ATI ON HAS BEEN.

11

 THI  THI S I S THE THE KI ND OF SYSTEM SYSTEM THA THAT OUR CONSTI TUTI TUTI ONAL

BUT STI LL , UNDER I NTERM TERMEDI EDI ATE SCR SCRUTI NY, I T' S THE THE

12

DEMOCR CRAC ACY Y WAS EST ESTABLI ABLI SHED SHED TO BRI BRI NG FORTH TO ALL ALL OW STATES STATES TO

13

EXPERI EXPERI MENT ENT WI TH PUB PUBL I C SAFETY SAFETY L EGI EGI SLATI ON TO TACKLE TACKLE TH T HESE

14

I SSUES SSUES OF PUB PUBL I C CONCERN ERN.

12: 37: 12 15

I CAN THI THI NK OF FEW OTHER THER I SSUES SSUES

OTHER TH THAN PUBL UBL I C MASS SHOOTI NGS AND THE MURD URDER OF OF L AW

16

ENFORCEM ENFORCEMENT PERSO P ERSON NNEL THAT ARE MORE COM COMPELL EL L I NG FOR THE PEO P EOP PL E

17

OF CALI CALI FORN RNII A TO BE CONCERN CERNED WI TH. TH.

18

SHO SHOOTI NGS AND AND MURDERS OF OF L AW ENF ENF ORC RCEM EMENT ENT ARE RELATI REL ATI VELY VEL Y RARE RARE

19

EVEN EVENTS TS - -

20

 THE  THE COURT:

SO EVEN I F PUBL PUBL I C MASS

I CAN NAME A FEW.

ABOUT THE THE SAM SAME TI ME WE

21

PASSED THI THI S LAW L AW, WE ALSO AL SO PASSED A RECREA RECREATI TI ONAL MARI ARI J UANA ANA USE USE

22

L AW WHI CH NOT ON ONL Y VI OL ATES FEDERA FEDERAL L L AW, I MI GHT POI POI NT OU OUT, BUT BUT

23

I ' M WI L L I NG TO BET YOU DOL L ARS ARS TO DOUGHNUTS, AND AND I DON' T THI THI NK

24 25

 YOU  YOU' D DI SAG SAGREE, EE, SI R, THA THAT THER THERE E ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALREA LREADY BEEN KI L L ED, ED, MAI MED, ED, I NJ URED AS A RESUL ESUL T OF OF SOM SOMEON EONE SI TTI NG I N

95

12: 37: 51

1 2

 THEI  THEI R LI VI NG ROOM SMOKI NG A J OI NT, AND THEN THEN GOT I N THEI THEI R CAR AND AND DROVE THEI THEI R CAR CAR AND AND KI L L ED, ED, MAI MED OR I NJ URED PEOPL PEOPLE. E.

3 4 5 6 7 8 9

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:  THA  THAT.

I ' L L MAKE AKE NO REPRESEN REPRESENTATI TATI ONS ABO ABOUT

I DON' T KNOW ANYTHI YTHI NG ABOUT THA THAT.  THE  THE COURT:

WELL, YO YOU U CAN USE YO YOU UR COMMON SEN SENSE THA THAT

 YOU  YOU REFERR EFERRED TO EAR EARLI ER. ER. WE CAN CAN BAN ALCO ALCOHOL .

AND YO YOU U KNOW, FO FOR R EXA EXAMPLE, ALCOHOL,

THERE' S NO CONSTI STI TUTI ONAL PROTE PROTECTI CTI ON TO

 THE  THE CONSUM SUMPTI ON OF ALCOHOL.

AND WE KNOW FO FOR R A FACT, FACT, WE KNOW

FOR A FACT, ACT, WE DO DON' T HAV HAVE E TO GUESS, THAT THAT EVERY YEAR THERE' THERE' S

10

MANY, ANY, MANY ANY MORE PEOPL PEOPLE E KI L L ED AND AND I NJ URED AS A RESUL RESUL T OF PEOPL PEOPLE E

11

DRI VI NG AFTER AFT ER HAVI HAVI NG CONSUMED ALCO AL COHOL .

12

BUT I T' S NO NOT PROTECTED TECTED..

13 14 12: 38: 42 15 16 17 18 19 20

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

WE DO DON' T BAN ALCO AL COHOL ,

YOU YO UR HONOR MAY THI NK THERE' S MORE

PRESSI NG CONCERN CERNS, BUT BUT THE PEOPL PEOPL E CAN CAN DECI DE THAT. THAT.  THE  THE COURT:

WHEN YO YOU U TELL ME THA THAT THE THE STATE STATE HAS NO

GREATER EATER I NTEREST TEREST - MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

I DI DN' T SAY SAY THAT, THAT, YO YOU UR HONOR.

I THO THOUGHT THA THAT' S WHAT YO YOU U SAI SAI D.

MAYBE YBE I

MI SUNDERSTOOD. MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

I SAI SAI D FEW OTHER THER I SSU SSUES. ES.

SO I ' M NOT

21

RUL RUL I NG OUT THAT THAT THERE THERE ARE ARE OTHER THER I SSUES SSUES THAT THAT ARE ARE I MPORTAN PORTANT. T.

22

PEOPL PEOPLE E OF OF CAL CAL I FORN RNII A AND AND THE THE LEG L EGII SLATU SL ATURE RE CAN CAN WALK AND AND CHEW GUM.

23

 THEY  THEY CAN TAC TACKLE MULTI PLE I SSU SSUES I N DI FFEREN FFERENT T WAYS.

THE THE

THA THAT' S HOW

24

DEMOCR CRAC ACY Y WORKS.

BUT BUT UN UNDER I NTERMEDI EDI ATE SCRU SCRUTI TI NY, THI THI S CO COURT' S

25

ROL E I S TO MERELY ERELY DETERM DETERMI NE WHETHER THERE' THERE' S SUBSTAN SUBSTANTI TI AL

96

12: 39: 09

1

EVI EVI DENC ENCE, AND THA THAT' S A SUB SUBSTAN STANTI AL PI LE OF PAPER PAPER, THA THAT I NVOLVES

2

RELEVAN REL EVANT T EVI DENCE ENCE CO CONCERNI NG THE USE USE OF OF L ARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY

3

MAGAZI AZI NES I N PUBL PUBL I C MASS SHO SHOOTI NGS AND AND VI OL ENCE ENCE AG AGAI NST L AW

4

ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT WHI CH DEPRI EPRI VE I NNOCENT CENT CI TI ZENS ZENS AND AND L AW ENFORC ENFORCEM EMENT ENT

5

OF THE THE CR CRI TI CAL PAU PAUSES TO I NTERVEN TERVENE.

6

POSSE POSSESSI SSI ON BAN BAN WAS NEEDED NEEDED TO CLOSE TH THE PO P OSSESSI SSESSI ON LOO LOOPHOL E.

7

THER THERE' E' S EVI EVI DENC ENCE THAT THAT THE THE

I N THE EXPERT REPO REPORT OF OF DR. DR. KO KOPE PER, R, HE RECOUNTED TED THE

8

EXPERI EXPERI ENCE ENCE WI TH THE FED FEDERAL ASSAULT ASSAUL T WEAPO EAPONS BAN WHI CH WAS I N

9

PL ACE I N 1994 1994 TO T O 2004 2004,, AND AND HE SHOW SHOWED THAT TH THAT BAN L ED TO A

10

REDU REDUCTI ON I N THE USE USE OF OF L ARGE CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES AND AND GUN CR CRII ME

11

AND AND - -

12 13 14 12: 40: 00 15 16 17

 THE  THE COURT:

I READ EAD HI S REPORT AND ACTUA TUALLY LL Y EVER EVERYTH YTHII NG

 THA  THAT I READ EAD THA THAT HE SAYS SAYS I S BASI CALLY LL Y I NCONCLUSI LUSI VE. SAYS I S ALL I NCONCLUS LUSI VE.

WHAT HE

I N FAC FACT, I F I ' M NOT MI STAK TAKEN - -

L OOK, I DON' T WANT ANT TO T O ARGUE WI TH YOU YOU, BUT BUT MY UND UNDERSTANDI NG I S  THA  THAT HE SAYS SAYS - - I CAN PRO PROBABLY FI ND I T HERE. ERE. MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

THE 2004 2004 STU STUDY?

HE WAS ONE OF THE THE

18

AUTHO AUTHORS OF OF THE FED FEDERAL ERALL L Y COM COMMI SSI SSI ONED STU STUDY OF OF THE FEDERAL FEDERAL

19

ASSAULT ASSAULT WEAPO EAP ONS BAN. BAN.

20

 THE  THE COURT:

21 22 23

HE SAI SAI D I T MAY HAVE HAD AN I MPAC PACT, AND I

 THI  THI NK HE SAI SAI D THA THAT PERH PERHAPS I F WE ALLO LL OWED MORE TI ME WE MI GHT HAVE AVE SEEN SEEN A REDU REDUCTI ON; BUT BUT AS I T STAND STANDS RI GHT NOW, EVERYTHI EVERYTHI NG  THA  THAT HE SAYS SAYS I S I NCONCLUSI LUSI VE.

24

KNO KN OW WHAT TH THE EFF EF FECT WAS.

25

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

HE SAYS SAYS WE DON' T KNOW.

WE DON' T

THAT WOUL D BE THE EFF EF FECT ON GUN

97

12: 40: 36

1 2

CRI ME GENERAL GENERALL L Y.

BUT BUT WHAT WE DI DI D SEE SEE AND AND WHAT DR. DR. KO KOP PER

 TESTI  TESTI FI ES TO I N HI S EXPER EXPERT T REPORT I S THA THAT THE THE USE OF LARG LARGE

3

CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES DECREASED ECREASED BASED ON THE THE WASHI NGTON POST STU STUDY

4

OF THE THE STATE STATE OF VI RGI NI A.

5

FEDERAL EDERAL ASSAUL ASSAUL T WEAPON EAPONS BAN UNTI L 2010, 2010, THE NU NUMBERS OF OF L ARGE

6

CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZ AGAZII NE EQ EQUI PPED PP ED FI REARM REARMS USED I N GUN CRI CRI ME DOUBLED

7

 TO 20 PERC PERCENT. ENT.

AND AND THEN THEN AFTER THE THE LAPSI NG OF THE THE

SO THA THAT SHO SHOWS THA THAT LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY MAGAZI NE

8

RESTRI RESTRI CTI ONS, WHEN THEY' THEY' RE I N PLAC PL ACE, E, WORK. RK.

I N REMOVI NG L ARG ARGE

9

CAPACI APACI TY MAGAZI AZI NES FROM FROM CI RC RCU UL ATI ON AND AND I N THE THE USE USE OF OF VI OL ENC ENCE

10

AGAI NST LAW L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT AND AND I N PUBL PUBL I C MASS SHO SHOOTI NGS, AND AND I N

11

GENERA ENERAL L , GUN CRI ME.

12

AND AND THE THE POSSESSI POSSESSI ON BAN BAN I S EVEN MORE EFFECTI EFF ECTI VE I N THE THE

13

STATE OF OF CALI FORN RNII A BECA BECAU USE THE THE FED FEDERA ERAL L BAN BAN HAD A SI MI L AR

14

GRAN RANDFATHER ATHER PROVI PROVI SI ON, RI GHT, THAT THAT I NDI VI DUALS WHO OWNED L ARG ARGE

12: 41: 32 15

CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES BEFO BEF ORE 1994 1994 WERE ALL AL L OWED TO CONTI NUE TH THEI R

16

POSSE POSSESSI SSI ON OF THOSE MAGAZI AGAZI NES.

17

WERE ALSO ALSO ALL AL L OWED TO TRANSFER TRANSFER THEM.

18

SP- 23 DI D NOT ALLO ALL OW.

19

CI RCUL ATED THR THROUGHOUT THE THE CO COUNTRY.

20

WAS 25 TO TO 50 MI L L I ON L ARGE CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES WERE

21

GRAND RANDFATHERED I N UN UNDER TH T HE FEDERAL EDERAL ASSAULT ASSAULT WEAPO EAPONS BAN, BAN, AND AND

22

MANY ANY MORE GRAND GRANDFATH ATHERED ERED L CM' S WERE I MPORTED RTED I NTO THE COUN COUNTRY

23

DURI NG THE FED FEDERAL ERAL ASSAULT ASSAULT WEAPO EAPONS BAN. BAN.

24 25

BUT BUT UN UNDER THE FEDERAL EDERAL LAW L AW, THEY THAT' S SOM SOMETH ETHI NG THAT

SO L ARG ARGE CAPAC CAPACII TY MAGAZI AZI NES WERE BEI NG ADDI TI ONALLY, ALL Y, I THI THI NK I T

SO CALI CALI FORN RNII A LO LOOKED AT AT WHAT HAPPENED HAPPENED WI TH THE FEDERA EDERAL L BAN BAN AND AND I MPROVED PROVED I T, AND AND THEY THEY CON CONTI NUED TO I MPROVE PROVE I T

98

12: 42: 11

1

I N 2016 BY BY CL CL OSI NG THE THE POSSESSI POSSESSI ON L OOPHOL E.

WE HAVE AVE EVI EVI DENCE ENCE

2

I N THE RECORD RECORD WI TH THE DECL DECLARATI ARATI ON OF BLAKE BLAKE GRAH GRAHAM AM THAT SHOW SHOWS

3

 THA  THAT THE THE POSS POSSES ESSI SI ON BAN I S NECESS ECESSA ARY TO EFFECTI EFFECTI VELY ENFO ENFOR RCE

4

CALI FO FOR RNI A' S EXI EXI STI NG LARG LARGE CAPACI PACI TY MAGAZI NES RESTRI ESTRI CTI ON.

5 6

 THE  THE COURT:

I SAW SAW I N ONE OF THE THE DECLAR ECLARA ATI ONS WHERE ERE

 THE  THE NUMBER, ER, THE THE NUMBER OF - - LET ME SEE SEE I F I CAN FI ND I T. I HOPE I CAN FI ND I T.

J UST

7

A SECO SECOND.

I WON' T BE ABL ABL E TO PUT PUT MY

8

FI NGER ON I T.

9

NUMBER I REMEMBER I S 264 OF THE THE NU NUMBER OF - - WELL EL L , I BETTER NO NOT

BUT I SAW SAW A SI GNI FI CANT REDUCTI ON.

10

SAY SAY BEC BECA AUSE I ' M NOT AB ABSOLUTELY LUTELY CER CERTA TAII N.

11

BEFOR EFORE I I SSUE SSUE MY DEC DECII SI ON.

12

FOR A L I TTL TTL E OVER TWO HOURS.

14

WE' L L COME BAC BACK. K.

16

I ' D HAVE TO L OOK AT I T

ANYW ANYWAY, L I STEN STEN,, MY STAF STAFF F HAS BEEN GOI NG NONSTO STOP NOW

13

12: 43: 57 15

I THI THI NK THE THE

WE' RE GOI NG TO TALK TAL K A BREAK. BREAK.

TAKE A L I TTLE TTL E BREA BREAK K AN AND COME BAC BACK K AT AT 1: 00.

AND AND THEN THEN I ' M GOI NG TO GI VE YOU 10 MORE MI NUTES I F YO Y OU NEED I T  TO TELL ME WHATEVER TEVER ELSE YO YOU U WANT ME TO HEAR EAR, AND THEN THEN I ' M

17

GOI NG TO GI VE THE THE PLAI PL AI NTI FF AN OPPO PP ORTUN RTUNI TY TO CL OSE.

18

WE' RE GOI NG TO CALL I T.

19

ALL RI RI GHT.

ALL ALL CO COUNSEL: SEL :

21

( RECESS. )

22

 THE  THE COURT:

23 24 25

WE' RE GOI NG TO BE DONE BY 2: 00.

WE' LL BE BE I N RECES ECESS S UNTI L 1: 00. 00.

20

AND AND THEN THEN SO

THA THANK YO YOU U.

THAN THANK YO YOU U, YO YOU UR HONOR.

ALL RI GHT.

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A, AS I TO TOLD LD

 YOU  YOU, I ' D GI VE YO YOU U 10 MI NUTES I F THER THERE E WAS ANYTHI YTHI NG ELSE YO YOU U WANTED ANTED TO ADD ADDRESS.

I KN KNO OW I PEPPERED PEP PERED YO YOU U WI TH QUESTI ONS, AND AND

 YOU  YOU SO FAR HELD YO YOU UR OWN.

99

13: 01: 18

1

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

2

 THE  THE COURT:

3

STI LL TI ME FO FOR R I T?

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

4

OF THE THE CO COURT' S TI ME.

5

 THE  THE COURT:

THER THERE' E' S STI LL TI ME, YO YOU UR HONOR.

YEAH, YEAH, I ' L L TRY NOT TO TAKE TO TOO O MUCH

I T' S ALL RI GHT.

I T' S AN I MPOR PORTAN TANT I SSU SSUE.

6

I TO TOO OK THE THE TI ME AND AND ASKED ASKED QUESTI ONS BEC BECAUSE AUSE I BELI EVE EVE I T' S AN

7

I MPOR PORTAN TANT I SSUE. SSUE.

8 9

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:  THA  THAT.

THE THE ATTORN ATTORNEY GENERA ENERAL L APPRECI APPRECI ATES

I ' D LI KE TO NOTE SOME POI POI NTS ABOUT THE THE SEC SECOND AMEND ENDMENT ENT

10

CL AI M.

11

I NVOL VOL VI NG THE SU SUNNYVALE YVAL E ORD ORDII NANCE ANCE WAS A PO POSSES SSESSI SI ON BAN THAT WAS

12

VERY VERY SI MI L AR TO WHAT CALI CALI FO FORN RNI A DI D ON A STATEW STATEWI DE BASI BASI S I N

13

ENA ENACTI NG PROPOSI POSI TI ON 63.

14 13: 01: 57 15 16 17

I ' D L I KE TO NOTE FOR FOR THE THE CO COURT THAT THAT THE THE FYOC FYOCK C CASE ASE

 THE  THE COURT:

CAN I ASK YO YOU U A QUESTI ESTI ON WI TH REGARDS TO

 THE  THE FYOC FYOCK CASE? SE? MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

SUR SURE.

DO YO YOU U THI THI NK I T MAKES KES ANY DI FFEREN FFERENC CE THA THAT

18

 THE  THE FYOC FYOCK CASE I NVOLVED LVED A CI TY, A HI GHLY- POPU POPULATE LATED D CI TY, WHERE ERE

19

L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT, ENT, FOR EXAMPL E, WOUL D BE ABLE ABLE TO T O RESPO RESPOND PERH PERHAPS APS

20

ON SHO SHORT NOTI CE?

21

AS TO TO HOW MANY ANY RAPES RAPES,, ASSAULTS ASSAULTS,, ATTEM ATT EMPTED TED MURDERS RDERS OR OR MURDERS RDERS

22

I KN KNO OW THERE' THERE' S LACK OF EVI DENCE ENCE I N THE RECO RECORD

 THE  THE STATE STATE HAS BEEN EEN ABLE TO PREV PREVEN ENT T OVER THE THE YEAR YEARS.

I DI DN' T

23

SEE ANY ANY STATI STI CS ON THAT. THAT.

SO WHAT WE REAL REALL L Y DO DO KN KNO OW - - WHAT

24

WE KN KNO OW I S THAT THAT GENERA ENERAL L L Y L AW ENFO ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT I S REAC REACTI VE.

25

L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT WI L L SHO SHOW UP ONCE A PROBLEM PROBLEM HAS BEGAN BEGAN..

THAT THAT

100 100

13: 02: 46

1

NOW I N THE THE SUN SUNNYVAL YVAL E CASE, CASE, THAT' THAT' S A CI CI TY WHERE LAW

2

ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT, ENT, AT LEAST L EAST I N THEORY, THEORY, SHO SHOUL D BE ABL ABL E TO TO RESPO RESPOND

3

RATHER RATHER QUI CKLY CKLY TO AN I NCI DENT. ENT.

4

HOUSE, THE THE WOMAN PI CKS UP UP TH T HE PHONE, CALLS ALL S 9- 1- 1, HOPEFU PEF UL L Y LAW L AW

5

ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT WOUL D BE THERE QUI CKLY. CKLY.

6

FOR EXAMPL E, FROM SOM SOME OF OF THE MORE RURAL RURAL AREAS WHERE SO S OMETI ETI MES

7

I T TAKES 15 MI NUTES OR OR MORE FOR L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT TO ARRI ARRI VE.

8

SOM SOMEON EONE BREAKS BREAKS I NTO A WOMAN' AN' S

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

10

DI SCU SCUSS TH THAT POI POI NT I N I TS DECI ECI SI ON.  THE  THE COURT:

12 13

 THE  THE COURT:

16 17 18

WELL, ELL , THE THE NI NTH CI RCUI T DI DN' T

DO YO YOU U THI THI NK THA THAT MAKES KES A DI FFEREN FFERENC CE?

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

14 13: 03: 34 15

DO

 YOU  YOU THI THI NK THA THAT MAKES KES A DI FFEREN FFERENC CE?

9

11

THAT' THAT' S TO BE CONTRASTED TRASTED,,

DO I , PERSO PERSONALL Y?

YEAH YEAH, DO YO YOU U?

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

NOT GI GI VEN THE THE CO CONTEXT OF OF THE L ARG ARGE

CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NE BAN BECAUSE BECAUSE SO SOMEON EONE WHO L I VES I N A RURAL RURAL COMMUNI TY CAN HAVE ACCESS TO AS MANY ANY MAGAZI AGAZI NES AS TH T HEY FEEL EEL  THEY  THEY NEED EED.  THE  THE COURT:

YOU YO U RAI SE THA THAT, AND SO THA THAT' S AN

19

I NTERESTI NG POI POI NT TH T HAT YOU YOU RAI RAI SE BECAU BECAUSE SE YOU YOU SAI D THAT THAT BY

20

REDUCI REDUCI NG THE NUM NUMBER OF OF RO ROUN UNDS A MAGAZI AGAZI NE CAN HO HOL D TO 10, 10, THE

21

EVI DENCE I N THE RECO RECORD SHOWS THAT THAT WOULD ULD GI VE SOMEONE EONE AN

22

OPPO PP ORTUN RTUNI TY EI THER THER TO ESCAPE ESCAPE OR TO TAKE DO DOWN THE THE ASSAI L ANT. ANT.

23 24 25

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

OR HI DE.

OR HI DE.

NOW I F YO YOU U' RE THE THE WOMAN WHO I S

HI DI NG I N THE CLOSET, CLOSET, AND AND THERE' THERE' S THREE THREE ASSAI ASSAI L ANTS ANTS WHO HAVE AVE

101 101

13: 04: 33

1

BRO BROKEN I NTO THE THE HOUSE, AND AND YO YOU U F I RED ALL ALL 10 SH SHOTS, TS, YO YOU U MAY HAVE HAVE

2

20 OR 30 MAGAZI AGAZI NES THAT HOL D 10 ROUNDS WI TH YOU YOU, BUT BUT NOW THAT

3

I NDI VI DUAL HAS TO TAKE THE THE TI ME, AGAI N ASSUM ASSUMI NG THAT THAT HE HE OR OR SHE SHE

4

I S NOT SO NERVOU ERVOUS AND SHAKI NG AND AND STRESS STRESSED ED OUT, AND AND THAT

5

I NDI VI DUAL HAS HAS TO TAKE THE THE TI ME TO CHANG ANGE THE THE MAGAZI AZI NE.

DOES

6

 THA  THAT NOT REND ENDER THA THAT PERSO PERSON MORE VULNER LNERA ABLE TO THO THOSE ASSA SSAI LANTS LANTS

7

 THA  THAT HAVE BROKEN KEN I NTO HER HOUSE? SE?

8

 TO TAKE TAKE THE THE SAM SAME AMOUNT OF TI ME THA THAT I T TAKE TAKES S WHEN THE THE

9

I N OTHER THER WORDS, NOW SHE SHE HAS

ASSAI L ANT ANT WI TH A 10- ROUND MAGAZI AGAZI NE NEEDS NEEDS TO TO REMOVE TH THE MAGAZI AGAZI NE

10

AND AND PUT A NEW MAGAZI AZI NE I N, THAT THAT GI GI VES PEOPL PEOPLE E A CH CHANCE ANCE TO RUN RUN,

11

HI DE OR TO BE TAKE TAKEN N DOWN.

12

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

13

HONOR.

14 13: 05: 28 15 16 17

I SEE WHAT YO YOU U' RE SAYI NG, YO YOU UR

 THE  THE COURT:

THA THAT SAM SAME TI ME I NTERV TERVAL WORKS TO THE THE

DETRI ETRI MENT ENT TO TO THE WOMAN NOW FACI ACI NG THESE THREE THREE ASSAI L ANTS ANTS,, RI GHT?

DO YOU AGREE AGREE WI TH THAT? MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

WELL , THE THE CRI TI CAL PAUSE PAUSE THAT THAT THE THE

18

STATE EMPHASI PHASI ZES ZES I N J USTI FYI NG THE THE LARG LARGE CAPA CAPAC CI TY MAGAZI AZI NE BAN BAN,

19

WHAT YOU YOUR HO HONOR I S SAYI NG, AS FAR AS I UNDERSTAND ERSTAND, I S THAT THAT

20 21 22 23 24 25

 THER  THERE E WOULD ALSO BE A PAU PAUSE I F SOMEONE I S CONFI NED TO HAVI NG A 10- ROUND MAGAZ AGAZII NE TO T O RELOAD RELOAD THEI THEI R MAGAZI AZI NE; I S TH T HAT WHAT YO YOU' RE  YOU  YOU' RE ASKI SKI NG?  THE  THE COURT:

THA THAT' S EXA EXACTLY WHAT I WAS ASKI SKI NG.

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

SO THE THE I NFERENCE ERENCE CAN CAN CUT CUT BO BOTH WAYS.

PRO ROF FESSOR ESSOR EUGENE EUGENE VOL VOL OKH AT UCLA UCLA LAW L AW SCHOOL WRO ROT TE A BLO BL OG POST

102 102

13: 05: 56

1

ABOUT TH T HI S ON ON THE WASHI NGTON POST ABOUT HOW THE I NFERENCES CAN

2

CUT CUT BOT BOTH WAYS. AYS.

3 4

 THE  THE COURT:

WHAT DO YO YOU U MEAN EAN?

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

SO WHERE THE STATE STATE SAYS THAT THAT L ARGE

5

CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES ARE SO DAN DANG GEROU EROUS BECAU BECAUSE SE THEY CAN BE USED TO

6

KI L L MANY ANY PEO P EOPL PLE E I N A SHO SHORT PERI OD OF TI ME, THAT THAT SAME ARGUMENT ENT

7

COUL D BE USED USED TO J USTI FY A LAR L ARG GE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AZI NE BECAU BECAUSE

8

SOMEONE COULD COULD SHOOT MORE ROUND ROUNDS AND AND DEFE DEF END THEMSEL VES VES MORE

9

EFFEC FFECTI VELY.

10 11

 THE  THE COURT:

RI GHT.

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

ALTH ALT HOUGH, I WOUL D NOTE, AS NOTED I N

12

HELL EL L ER TOO TOO AND AND NOTED TED I N FYO YOCK, CK, THAT SPRAYI SPRAYI NG ROUNDS I N

13

SELFSEL F- DEFENSE CAN CAN I NJ URE I NNOCENT ENT BYSTAND BYSTANDERS ESPECI ALLY ALL Y WHERE,

14

AS YO YOUR COURT SU SUGGESTED EST ED,, THEY MAY MAY HAVE LESS L ESS TRAI NI NG AND AND BE

13: 06: 36 15

L ESS ACCU ACCURA RATE. TE.

AND AND THE THE EXPERT REPO REPORT RT OF STEPHEN STEPHEN HELSL EL SLEY EY

16

I NDI CATES CATES THAT THAT WI TH MOST SHO SHOOTI NGS, MOST SHO SHOOTI NGS I NVOL VE A

17

L OT O OF F MI SSI NG, AND AND THO THOSE MI SSED SHO SHOTS CAN CAN I NJ URE PEOPL PEOPLE, E,

18

I NNOCENT ENT PEO P EOPL PLE. E.

19

BUT BUT WHERE TH T HE I NFERENCE CUTS CUTS BOTH WAYS, AYS, THE STAT STATE E HAS

20

EVI DENC ENCE TH T HAT LAR L ARG GE CAPAC CAPACII TY MAGAZI AZI NES UND UNDERMI NE TH T HE CRI CRI TI CAL

21

PAUSES PAUSES FO F OR I NNOCENT CENT VI CTI MS TO SEEK COVER, VER, ESCAPE ESCAPE OR OR I NTERVENE TERVENE

22

AND AND THERE' S SPECU SP ECUL L ATI ON ON THE THE OTHER OTHER HAND HAND THAT SO SOME

23

HYPOTHETI ET I CAL PERSO ERSON MAY NEED EED AN 11TH 11T H RO ROUND AT THAT VERY MOMENT

24 25

 TO PRO PROTECT TECT THEM THEMSELVE SELVES. S.

AND WHERE ERE THER THERE E ARE THES THESE E COMPETI NG

I NFERENC FERENCES, I T' S NO NOT THE THE PRO PROVI NCE OF THE THE J UDI CI ARY ARY TO REWEI GH

103 103

13: 07: 19

1

 THO  THOSE I NFEREN FERENC CES AND REWEI GH THE THE EVI EVI DENC ENCE UNDER I NTERM TERMEDI ATE

2

SCR SCRUTI NY.

3

I S MUCH MORE ACTI ACTI VE AND AND MUCH MORE SCRU SCRUTI NI ZI NG.

4

A CATEG CATEGO ORI CAL CAL BAN BAN SI MI L AR TO HELL EL L ER OF A QU QUI NTESSENTI TESSENTI AL

5

SELF SEL F- DEFEN EF ENSE SE FI F I REARM REARM, THEN THEN THAT THAT WOUL D BE I NVAL VAL I D UNDER ANY ANY

6

L EVEL OF SCRU SCRUTI TI NY.

7

HELLER.

8 9

UNDER STRI STRI CT SC SCRUTI NY, SUR SURE; THEN THEN THE THE J UDI CI AL RO ROLE I F THE BAN BAN I S

I T WOUL D BE CATEGO ATEGORI CALLY ALL Y I NVAL VAL I D UNDER

BUT BUT HERE WE HAVE COM COMPETI ETI NG I NFERENCES ERENCES,, AND AND WE HAVE SUBSTA SUBSTAN NTI AL EVI DENC ENCE ON ON THE THE STATE SI DE, AND AND I T WAS WI THI THI N THE THE

10

POW POWER OF OF THE PEOPL PEOPLE E OF OF CAL CAL I FORN RNII A TO CLOSE CLOSE TH T HE PO P OSSESSI SSESSI ON

11

L OOPHOL E AND AND ENAC ENACT T PRO P ROPOSI POSI TI ON 63, AND AND THERE' THERE' S NO NOTHI THI NG

12

UNCONSTI TUTI TUTI ONAL ABO ABOUT THAT. THAT.

13

CASE, CASE, WHI CH I NVOL VED THE THE NEW NEW YO YORK RK LAR LARG GE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI NE BAN

14

AND AND THE THE SAFE ACT, THE THE PREVI OUS RESTRI CTI ONS GRA GRAN NDFATHERED ATHERED I N

13: 08: 16 15

I N THE THE SECO SECOND CI RC RCU UI T, THE THE NYSRPA

L ARGE CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES TH T HAT WERE OW OWNED BEFO BEF ORE THE YEAR YEAR 1994. 1994.

16

AND AND THE LAW LAW THAT THAT WAS BEI NG CHAL CHALL L ENG ENGED I N THE SECOND CI RC RCU UI T

17

CASE DI D AWAY WI TH THAT THAT GRAN RANDFATHERI FATHERI NG.

18 19 20

SO I T' S VERY VERY SI MI L AR

 TO THE THE TYPE OF POSS POSSES ESSI SI ON RESTR ESTRII CTI ONS THA THAT WERE ERE ENA ENACTED I N PRO PROPOSI POSI TI ON 63. 63.  THE  THE COURT:

TO BE CONTRA TRASTED STED WI TH KOLBE. LBE.

KOLBE, LBE, FO FOR R

21

EXAM EXAMPLE, PL E, DEALT WI TH L EGI EGI SLATI SL ATI ON THAT THAT PRESERV PRESERVED ED,, THAT THAT DI D

22

I NCLUDE CLUDE A GRANDFATHER ATHER CL CL AUSE. AUSE.

23 24 25

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

SI MI L AR TO WHAT CALI FO FOR RNI A DI D WI TH

SP- 23 I N 2000 000.  THE  THE COURT:

RI GHT.

104 104

13: 08: 45

1 2 3

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

AGAI N, STATES CAN APPROACH ACH THI THI S

COMPEL L I NG I SSUE SSUE I N DI FFERENT ERENT WAYS AND AND L EARN EARN FROM EACH EACH OTHER THER I N  TRYI  TRYI NG TO ENA ENACT PUB PUBLI C SAFETY SAFETY LEGI LEGI SLATI SLATI ON.

I ' D ALSO LI KE TO

4

NOTE WI TH RESPECT RESPECT TO TO WEI GHI NG OF THE EVI DENCE ENCE AND AND HOW THE

5

PEOPLE EOPL E HAVE TH THE PO P OWER TO TO WEI GH THE EVI EVI DENCE AND AND NOT THE COURT URT

6

WHEN I NTERM TERMEDI EDI ATE SCR SCRUTI NY APPL APPLII ES WHI CH I S THE THE CASE ASE HERE. ERE.

7

L I KE TO POI POI NT THE CO COURT TO THE THE J ACKSO ACKSON CASE.

8 9 10

I'D

I N J ACKSO ACKSON, THE THE NI NI NTH CI RCUI T WAS EVA EVAL L UATI NG A MUNI CI PAL RESTRI CTI ON ON HOL L OW POI POI NT AMMUNI TI ON WHI CH THE THE CI CI TY AND CO COUN UNT TY OF SAN SAN FRANCI SCO DETE ET ERMI NED TO BE MORE DANG DANGEROUS EROUS

11

 THA  THAN STAN STANDARD AMMUNI TI ON.

12

 THE  THE EVI EVI DENC ENCE THA THAT WAS BEFOR EFORE THE THE DI STRI STRI CT COURT AND CONCLUD LUDED

13

 THA  THAT THE THE PLAI NTI FF' S COUNTERTER- EVI EVI DENC ENCE MERELY ERELY SUG SUGGESTED ESTED THA THAT THE THE

14 13: 09: 42 15 16 17 18 19

AND THE THE NI NTH CI RCUI T WAS LOO LOOKI NG AT

CI TY' TY' S EVI DENCE ENCE WAS QU QUOTE, UNQUOTE, BAD BAD SCI ENCE ENCE AND AND AT MOST  THER  THERE' E' S AN OPEN QUESTI ESTI ON ABOUT WHETHER ETHER HOLLO LL OW POI POI NT AMMUNI TI ON I S MORE DAN DANG GEROU EROUS. BUT BUT WHEN THERE' THERE' S AN OPEN PEN QUESTI EST I ON, WHEN THERE' THERE' S EVI DENCE ENCE ON ON BO BOTH SI DES, WHEN THERE THERE ARE CO COMPETI PET I NG I NFERENCES, ERENCES,  THE  THE LEGI LEGI SLATU SLATURE AND THE THE PEOPLE HAVE THE THE POW POWER TO DRAW THE THE LI NES

20

AND AND TO EXPERI MENT. ENT.

21

PRESERVES I MPORTAN PORTANT T SEPARATI SEPARATI ON OF POW POWER PRI NCI PALS PAL S TH THAT I WOUL D

22

I MPLO PL ORE THE THE COU COURT TO BE MI NDFUL OF.

23

 THE  THE COURT:

AND AND THE THE I NTERMEDI EDI ATE SCRU SCRUTI TI NY STAND STANDARD ARD

SI NCE I KNOW YO YOU U' RE REALL EALLY Y KNOWLEDG LEDGEAB EABLE

24

ABOUT TH T HI S, BUT BUT CAN YOU NAME FO F OR ME A FEW F EW CASES OTHER OTHER TH THAN

25

HELL EL L ER WHERE THE COUR COURT TS HAVE EVER EVER FO F OUND I N FAVOR AVOR OF OF NOT

105 105

13: 10: 31

1 2 3

RESTRI CTI NG THE SECON SECOND AMEND ENDMENT ENT RI GHTS OF PEO PEOPL E? MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:  THE  THE COURT:

I CAN, AN, BUT BUT THEY THEY WERE REVERSED REVERSED.

SO TO MAKE A LON LONG STORY SHO SHORT, I T WOULD

4

SEEM THAT THAT SHO SHORT OF OF HELL HELL ER, ER, THER THERE' E' S A J UDI CI AL ANTI ANTI PATHY PATHY TOW TOWARD ARDS

5

PROTECTI TECTI ON OF TH T HE SECON SECOND AMENDMENT.

6

RUL RUL E AGAI NST A STATE, I N CONNECTI ECTI ON WI TH FI REARM REARM L AWS OR OR

7

REGU EGUL ATI ONS, THE THE STATE STATE WI NS.

8 9

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

SO ANY ANY TI TI ME THAT COURTS

I WOULDN LDN' T SAY SAY I T' S ANTI PATH PATHY. Y.

I'D

SAY SAY I T' S AN AN APPLI PPL I CATI ON OF I NTERM TERMEDI EDI ATE SCR SCRUTI NY AS AS

10

I NTERM TERMEDI EDI ATE SCRUTI SCRUTI NY I S UND UNDERSTO ERSTOOD UNDER TU TURN RNER ER BROADCA ADCAST STII NG

11

AND AND OTHER THER SUPREM SUPREME CO COURT PRECED PRECEDEN ENTS. TS.

12

SCRUTI SCRUTI NY WORKS.

13

STATE OF OF CALI CALI FORN RNII A WHO DON' T THI NK LAR LARG GE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZ AGAZII NE

14

RESTRI CTI ONS ARE EFF EF FECTI VE AND AND WHO THI THI NK THEY ACTUALL ACTUALL Y DO NEED

13: 11: 45 15

I T' S J UST HO HOW I NTERMEDI EDI ATE

I UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE MANY ANY PEO PEOPL E I N THE

L ARG ARGE CAPACI APACI TY MAGAZI AZI NES.

I ' M SURE SURE THERE' THERE' S MANY ANY MEMBERS BERS OF THE THE

16

 J UDI CI ARY WHO HAVE DI FFEREN FFERENC CES OF OPI NI ON ABOUT THE THE WI SDOM OF

17

 THI  THI S GUN CONTRO TROL MEASU EASUR RE OR THA THAT GUN CONTRO TROL MEASU EASUR RE.

18

BUT BUT UN UNDER I NTERMEDI EDI ATE SCRU SCRUTI TI NY, SUBSTA SUBSTAN NTI AL

19

DEFEREN EF ERENCE CE I S AFF AFFORDED TO THE THE PRED P REDII CTI VE J UDGMENTS ENTS OF THE

20

L EGI EGI SLATU SL ATURE RE AND AND THE THE PEOPL PEOPLE. E.

SO I T SHO SHOUL D NOT BE BE SURPR SURPRII SI NG

21

 THA  THAT THE THE J UDI CI AL OUTCO TCOME OF, AT LEAST LEAST SO FAR, FAR, CONSTI TUTI TUTI ONAL

22

CHAL CHALL L ENG ENGES TO T O GUN SAFET SAFETY Y LEG L EGII SLATI SL ATI ON HAVE NO NOT BEEN SUCC SUCCESS ESSF FUL

23

FOR FO R THE THE PLAI NTI FF FFS. S.

24

GENER ENERAL' AL' S POSI POSI TI ON THAT THAT I NTERM TERMEDI EDI ATE SCR SCRUTI NY APPLYI APPL YI NG HERE ERE

25

SUPPORTS SUPPORTS A FI NDI NG THAT THAT THE SECON SECOND AMEND ENDMENT ENT I S NOT VI OL ATED BY BY

I THI THI NK THAT THAT ONL Y SUPPO SUPPOR RTS THE THE ATTO ATTOR RNEY

106 106

13: 12: 23

1 2 3 4

 THE  THE LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY MAGAZI NE BAN. UNL ESS ESS YO Y OUR HONOR HAS HAS ANY ANY FURT URTHER QUES QUEST TI ONS ABOUT ABOUT THE SECO SECOND AMENDMENT, I ' D L I KE TO T O TOUCH TOUCH ON THE OTHER OTHER TWO CLAI CLAI MS  THA  THAT ARE AT I SSU SSUE VERY ERY BRI EFLY.

THEY THEY HAVE BEEN EEN BRI EFED.

5

REGARD REGARDI NG THE TAKI NGS CLAI CL AI M, THE SUPREME COU COURT I N HORN RNE E MADE ADE A

6

DI STI NCTI ON BETWEEN REAL REAL ESTATE AND AND PERSON PERSONAL PROPERTY.

7

DI STI STI NCTI ON THAT THAT WAS OBSERVED I N THE L UCAS CAS CASE. CASE.

8

COURT I N HORN RNE E HELD HELD I S TH THAT WHEN I T COM COMES TO T O A PHYSI CAL

9

OCCUPATI ON OF PRI VATE VATE POSSESSI POSSESSI ONS, THER THERE' E' S A TAKI TAKI NG REQU EQUI RI NG

10 11

I T' S A

AND AND WHAT THE THE

 J UST COMPENSA PENSATI TI ON.  THE  THE LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY MAGAZI NE BAN HERE ERE I S NOT A

12

PHYSI PHYSI CAL OC OCCUPATI ON OF ANY ANY OF OF TH T HE PLAI PL AI NTI FF FFS' S' OR AN ANYO YON NE ELSE' S

13

L ARG ARGE CAPAC CAPACII TY MAGAZI AZI NES BECAU BECAUSE SE TH T HEY CAN DI SPOSE SPOSE OF OF THEM THEM I N

14

MANY ANY WAYS AND AND MODI FY TH THEI R MAGAZI AGAZI NES AND AND RETAI N TI TLE, TL E, AND AND THE

13: 13: 19 15

COURT I N HO HORN RNE E MADE ADE CLEAR CLEAR TH THAT WI TH RESPECT RESP ECT TO REGU REGUL ATORY ATORY

16

 TAKI  TAKI NGS, PRI PRI VATE PRO PROPERTY PERTY AND - - PRI PRI VATE REAL EAL PRO PROPERTY PERTY AND

17

OTHER THER POSSESS POSSESSII ONS OR OR CH CHATTELS ATTEL S ARE ARE TREATED DI FFERENTL ERENTLY Y IN A

18

REGUL ATORY TAKI NGS CONTEXT.

AND AND THI THI S I S NEI THER THER A PHYSI PHYSI CAL

19

 TAKI  TAKI NG NOR A REGULATORY TAKI TAKI NG, AND I T' S NOT A REGULATORY

20

 TAKI  TAKI NG BECA ECAUSE THE THE VALUE LUE OF THE THE LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY MAGAZI NES THA THAT

21 22 23 24 25

WERE GRAN RANDF ATHERED ATHERED I S STI L L RETAI NED. ED.

THEY THEY CAN CAN SELL SEL L THEM.

 THEY  THEY CAN KEEP KEEP THEM THEM AND MOVE THEM THEM OUT OF STATE. STATE.  THE  THE COURT:

BUT I F THER THERE' E' S NO MARKET KET FO FOR R THEM THEM.

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

THERE THERE I S A MARKET ARKET FO FOR R L ARG ARGE CAPACI APACI TY

MAGAZI AZI NES OU OUTSI DE OF OF TH T HE STATE OF OF CAL CAL I FO FORN RNI A.

107 107

13: 14: 01

1 2

 THE  THE COURT:

MAGAZI AZI NE OU OUT OF OF THE THE STATE STATE OF OF CAL CAL I FORN RNII A?

3 4

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

I DON' T KNOW WHAT THE THE MECH ECHANI ANI SM

WOUL D BE FOR FOR I NTERSTATE SALES SALES OF OF L ARG ARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AZI NES.

5 6

CAN YO YOU U SHI SHI P AND SELL SELL A LARG LARGE CAPAC PACI TY

 THE  THE COURT:

I F I WAS LOO LOOKI NG TO BUY A CAR AND I KNEW

 YOU  YOU HAD TO SELL SELL THE THE CAR, WHAT ARE THE THE ODDS THA THAT I WOULD PAY PAY YO YOU U

7

FAI R MARKET ARKET VALUE FOR FOR THAT THAT CAR CAR I F I KN KNEW EW YO YOU U HAD TO SELL SEL L THE THE

8

CAR.

9

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

10 11

 THE  THE COURT:

14 13: 14: 41 15 16 17 18

NO, YO YOU U WOULD SELL SELL I T FO FOR R LESS, A LOT LOT

LES LESS.

12 13

YOU YO U MI GHT SELL I T FO FOR R LESS.

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:  TAKI  TAKI NG, YO YOU UR HONOR.

BUT BUT THAT THAT I S STI L L NO NOT A REGUL ATORY

THE THE REGULATORY TAKI TAKI NG' S J URI SPRU SPRUDENC ENCE

I NDI CATES THAT THAT THE THE REDUCTI ON I N VAL VAL UE HAS HAS TO BE BASI BASI CALLY ALL Y COMPLETE. PL ETE.  THE  THE COURT:

YOU YO U MEAN EAN NO VALUE. LUE.

I S THER THERE E ANY EVI EVI DENC ENCE

 THER  THERE E WOULD BE ANY VALUE LUE TO THESE THESE MAGAZI NES I F THEY THEY - MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

WELL , THE THE PLAI PL AI NTI FF FFS S BEAR EAR THE THE BURDEN

19

ON THEI THEI R TAKI NGS CL CL AI M AND AND THEI THEI R DUE PROCESS CL CL AI M ON A MOTI ON

20

FOR SUMMARY J UDGMENT, ENT, AND AND THEY' VE PRESENTED NO EVI DENCE. ENCE.

21

AND AND

 THEI  THEI R BRI EFI NG DI DN' T REALL EALLY Y ADDRESS ESS THE THE REGULATORY TAKI TAKI NGS

22

ARGUMENT MUCH UCH.

I THI NK THERE WAS A FOO FOOTNOTE TH T HAT MENTI ONED A

23

REGUL ATORY TAKI NG.

24

AND AGAI N, I REI TERATE TERATE THAT THAT THE THE EASTER EASTERN N DI STRI STRI CT OF OF

25

CAL CAL I FORN RNII A WI ESE VERSUS BECERR BECERRA, A, J UDGE SHU SHUBB GRANTED TED A MOTI ON

108 108

13: 15: 15

1

 TO DI SMI SS AND DENI ENI ED A MOTI ON FO FOR R PRELI PRELI MI NARY I NJ UNCTI ON ON A

2

VER VERY SI MI L AR TAKI TAKI NGS THEO THEOR RY TO CALI FO FOR RNI A' S POSSESSI POSSESSI ON BAN.

3

AND AND J UST YESTERD YE STERDAY AY I N RUPP RUPP VERSU VERSUS S BECERR BECERRA, A, J UDGE STATON STATON I N THE THE

4

CENTRA ENTRAL L DI STRI CT GRA GRAN NTED A MOTI ON TO DI SMI SS A VERY VERY SI MI L AR

5

 TAKI  TAKI NGS THEO THEORY WI TH RESPEC ESPECT T TO ASSA SSAULT WEAPO EAPON NS THA THAT WERE ERE UNABLE

6

 TO BE REGI STER STERED UNDER THE THE NEW ASSA SSAULT WEAPO EAPON NS RESTR ESTRII CTI ONS.

7

SO J UST TO T O CONCLUDE ON ON THE THE TAKI NGS, SECTI ON 32310

8

SUBD SUBDI VI SI ON C AND AND D, DO NOT AF AFFECT THE THE TAKI TAKI NG.

THEY THEY WERE

9

L EGI EGI TI MATE EXER EXERC CI SE OF OF TH T HE STATE' S POL POL I CE POW POWER I N BANN ANNI NG

10

DANG ANGEROUS EROUS FI F I REARMS TH T HAT HAD BEEN BEEN DECLARED, ECL ARED, AS YO Y OUR HONOR

11

OBSERVED BSERVED I N YO YOU UR ORDER ON THE THE PREL PRELII MI NARY ARY I NJ UNCTI ON, HAD BEEN

12

DECLARED A PUBLI PUBLI C NUI SANCE SANCE SUBJ SUBJ ECT TO SEI ZURE ZURE AND AND CONF I SCATI SCATI ON

13

BY LAW L AW ENFO ENFORC RCEM EMENT. ENT.

14 13: 16: 08 15 16 17

AND AND FI NALLY, ALL Y, WI TH RESPECT RESPECT TO T O THE THE SUBSTA SUBSTAN NTI VE DU DUE PROCESS CL CL AI M, THER THERE E I S NO NO MERI ERI T TO THE THE CL CL AI M THAT THAT THE THE POSSESSI POSSESSI ON BAN BAN VI OL ATES ANY ANY SUBSTAN SUBSTANTI TI VE DU DUE PROCESS PROCESS RI RI GHTS AS  THE  THE ATTORNEY GENER ENERA AL HAS LAI D OUT I N I TS BRI EFI NG.

A RATI ONAL

18

BASI ASI S SCR SCRUTI NY EFFEC EFF ECTI TI VEL VEL Y APPLI APPL I ES TO A SUB SUBSTANTI VE DUE PROCESS

19

ANALYSI ANALYSI S, AND AND HERE, THE THE STATE HAS HAS PRESEN PRESENTED TED A SI GNI FI CAN CANT AND AND

20

SUBSTAN SUBSTANTI TI AL AND AND I MPORTAN PORTANT T GOVERN VERNMENT ENT I NTEREST, WE' D SAY A

21

COMPEL L I NG GOVERN VERNMENT ENT I NTEREST - - I N THE THE PREVENTI PREVENTI ON AND AND

22

MI TI GATI ON OF PUBLI PUBLI C MASS SHO SHOOTI NGS AND AND VI OL ENC ENCE AGAI AGAI NST L AW

23

ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT, ENT, AND AND CLOSI CLOSI NG THE THE PO POSSESSI SSESSI ON L OOPHOL E I S RATI ONALL Y

24

RELATED RELATED TO THAT THAT I NTEREST BECAU BECAUSE I T HEL HELPS PS LAW L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT

25

ENFO ENFORC RCE E EXI STI NG L ARG ARGE CAPACI APACI TY MAGAZI AZI NE RESTRI RESTRI CTI ONS.

AND AND

109 109

13: 16: 49

1

 THA  THAT WAS SET FO FOR RTH I N BLAKE LAKE GRAHAM' S DECLAR ECLARA ATI ON.

2 3 4

ADDI TI ONALLY, ALL Y, THE THE POSSESSI POSSESSI ON BAN BAN ON L ARG ARGE CAPAC CAPACII TY MAGAZI NE BANS I S NOT RETRO ETROACTI VE.

I KN KNO OW THE THE PLA PL AI NTI FF I S

 TRYI  TRYI NG TO CHARACTERI TERI ZE THI THI S I S A RETRO ETROACTI VE STATU STATUTE. TE.

BUT I T

5

I S NOT RETR RETRO OACTI VE.

6

WHERE I NDI VI DUALS DEC DECII DE NO NOT TO DI SPOSE SPOSE OF OF THEI THEI R LARG LARGE CAPAC CAPACII TY

7

MAGAZI AGAZI NES OR OR MODI FY THEM.

8

I NDI VI DUALS AL S WHO OWN GRAND RANDFATHERED L ARGE CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES BE

9

SUB SUBJ ECT ECT TO CRI MI NAL PENALTI PENALTI ES.

10

13 14 13: 17: 49 15

ONL Y THEN WI L L ANY OF TH THE

SO THER THERE' E' S NO RETRO ETROACTI ACTI VE

EFF EF FECT I MPOSED POSED ON THEM THEM UNDER THE THE PO POSSESSI ON BAN BAN.

11 12

I T PRO PROSPECTI SPECTI VELY CR CRI MI NALI ZES CONDUCT

 THE  THE COURT: WAS THAT? THAT?

WHEN THE THE ORI GI NAL BAN WAS PASS PASSED ED, WHEN

I N 2000? MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

2000 2000..

I N 2000. 2000.

I F THE THE CI TI ZENS ENS OF THE THE STATE STATE I N

2000 HAD HAD BEEN TO TOL L D THAT THAT THI THI S LAW L AW I S GO GOI NG TO BECO BECOME EFFECTI EF FECTI VE,

16

I T' S NO NOT GO GOI NG TO HAVE A GRANDFATHER CLAUSE, WE' RE NO NOT GOI NG TO

17

ALL ALL OW YO YOU U TO KEEP TH T HAT WHI CH YO YOU U AL AL READY HAVE, HAVE, WE' RE GO GOI NG TO

18

MAKE AKE YOU YOU DI SPOSSESS SPOSSESS YOU YOURSELF OF I T - -

19 20 21 22

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

OR MODI FY I T.

- - OR MODI FY I T, DO YO YOU U THI THI NK THA THAT THE THE

REACTI REACTI ON TO THE THE LAW L AW MI GHT HAV HAVE E BEEN DI FFERENT? ERENT? MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

I DON' T KNOW.

23

 THE  THE COURT:

24

CLAUSE LAUSE I N, I N THE THE FI RST PLAC PLACE?

25

I CAN' T PRED PREDI CT - -

WHY DO YO YOU U THI THI NK THEY THEY PUT PUT THE THE GRANDFATH FATHER

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

I T WAS LI KELY KELY A POLI POLI TI CAL

110 110

13: 18: 45

1 2 3 4 5 6

COMPROM PROMI SE.

THAT' THAT' S WHAT HAPPEN APPENS WI TH - -

 THE  THE COURT:

WHAT' S A POLI POLI TI CAL COMPRO PROMI SE? SE?

 THE  THE POI POI NT OF THE THE POLI POLI TI CAL COMPRO PROMI SE? SE? MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

WHAT' S

TO GARNER SUPPO SUPPOR RT?

YEAH, TO HELP PAS P ASS S THE THE LAW, TO BUI L D

COALI TI ONS.  THE  THE COURT:

SO I N ESSE ESSEN NCE, WHAT HAPPENED PPENED WAS I N 2000 2000

7

PEOPL PEOPLE E WERE ESSENTI ESSENTI ALLY ALL Y MI SLEAD SL EAD I NTO SUPP SUPPO ORTI NG A LAW THAT THAT

8

L ATER ON, A FEW YEARS YEARS LATER L ATER,, THE THE STATE WOUL D SAY, WELL EL L , NOW WE

9

GOT THI THI S PASSED, THI THI S I S GR GREAT, EAT, BUT NO NOW WE' RE GO GOI NG TO TAKE TAKE

10 11 12

AWAY THE GRAN GRAND DFATHER CLAU CLAUSE SE.. MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

I WOUL D DEFI NI TELY TEL Y NO NOT AG AGREE WI TH

 YOU  YOUR HONOR' S CHARACTERI TERI ZATI ON THA THAT ANY PAR PARTI CULAR LEGI LEGI SLATO SLATOR RS

13

WHO WERE MI SLEAD SL EAD I N THE ENAC ENACTM TMENT OF SPSP - 23.

14

2000, THERE THERE WERE PUBL PUBL I C MASS SHO SHOOTI NGS TH THAT LED L ED TO THE THE PU P UBLI C

13: 19: 39 15 16 17

BACK BACK I N THE YEAR YEAR

OUTCRY, THAT L ED TO THE FED F EDERAL ERAL ASSAULT ASSAULT WEAPO EAPONS BAN AND AND L ED TO CALI FO FORN RNI A' S ENAC ENACTM TMENT ENT O OF F SPSP - 23; BUT BUT O OVER VER THE THE PAST 15 TO 16  YEAR  YEARS, THER THERE' E' S BEEN EEN EVEN EVEN MORE PUB PUBLI C MASS SHO SHOOTI NGS I NVOLVI NG

18

L ARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES.

19

NOT BEEN POSSI POSSI BLE BLE BACK BACK I N 2000, 2000, THE FACTS HAVE HAVE CHAN CHANG GED AND AND

20

CI RCUM RCUMSTAN ST ANCES CES HAVE CHANG CHANGED AND AND OVER 60 60 PERCENT P ERCENT OF THE

21

CALI FO FORN RNI A ELEC EL ECTO TORA RATE TE VOTED FO FOR R PROPOSI POSI TI ON 63.

22

DEMOCR CRAC ACY Y WORKS.

23 24 25

SO EVEN I F TH THE CO COMPROM PROMI SE WOUL D HAVE

THAT' THAT' S HOW

THAT' THAT' S HOW I NCR CREM EMENTAL ENTAL L EGI EGI SLATI SL ATI ON HAPPEN APPENS.

 THE  THE COURT:

OKAY. KAY.

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

SO THE ATTO ATT ORN RNEY EY GENERAL GENERAL WOUL D URGE RGE

 YOU  YOUR HONOR TO DENY ENY THE THE MOTI ON FO FOR R SUM SUMMARY J UDGMENT ENT AND THE THE

111 111

13: 20: 23

1

MOTI ON FOR PARTI AL SUM SUMMARY ARY J UDGMENT. ENT.

2

MAGAZI AZI NE BAN BAN AND AND THE THE POSSESSI ON BAN BAN I S CO CONSTI TUTI TUTI ONAL.

3

NOT EN ENTI TLED TL ED TO J UDGMENT ENT AS A MATTER ATTER OF OF L AW, AND AND AT A MI NI MUM,

4

 THEY'  THEY' RE I SSUES SSUES FO FOR R TRI TRI AL, AND THI THI S COURT MUST DENY ENY THE THE MOTI ON

5

8

 THE  THE COURT:

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:  THE  THE COURT:

11

 THE  THE COURT:

THAT' THAT' S CORREC RRECT, T, YO YOU UR HONOR.

OKAY. KAY.

MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A:

12

13: 21: 17 15

I NOTED

DI D NOT FI F I L E A MOTI ON FOR SUM SUMMARY J UDGMENT. ENT.

10

14

NOW I T' S KI ND OF I NTERES TERESTI TI NG.

 THA  THAT THE THE GOVERN ERNMENT ENT - - THE THE GOVERN ERNMENT, ENT, I ' M SORRY - - THE THE STATE STATE

9

13

THEY' THEY' RE

FOR SUM SUMMARY J UDGMENT ENT AT THI S STAG ST AGE. E.

6 7

THE THE LARGE LARGE CAPAC CAPACII TY

THE THE ATTORN ATTORNEY GENERA ENERAL L --

SO I ASSU SSUME THA THAT YO YOU U WOULD CONCEDE THEN THEN,,

 THA  THAT BASED SED ON THE THE STATE STATE OF THE THE EVI EVI DENC ENCE, THA THAT GI VEN THA THAT THE THE STATE HAS NO NOT FI F I L ED A MOTI ON FOR SUM SUMMARY ARY J UDGMENT ENT I N I TS FAVO AVOR,  THA  THAT I F I WERE ERE TO DENY ENY THE THE MOTI ON FO FOR R SUM SUMMARY J UDGMENT ENT THA THAT' S

16

PRESENTL PRESENTLY Y BEI NG GRAN RANTED, TED, MY PREL P RELII MI NARY ARY I NJ UNCTI ON ORDER WOUL D

17

CONTI NUE TO TO REMAI N I N EFF EFFECT, ECT, AND WE WOULD ULD NEXT MOVE FO F ORWARD TO

18

SOM SOME SORT SORT OF OF TRI T RI AL OR OR EVI EVI DENTI ENTI ARY ARY HEAR HEARII NG; CORRECT? RRECT?

19

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A:

20

WOULD ULD HAPP APPEN, YOUR HONOR.

THAT' THAT' S MY UNDERSTANDI NG OF WHAT THE ST STATE ATE DI DI D NOT MOVE TO TO SUMMARY

21

 J UDGMENT. ENT.

SO I F THE THE COURT DENI ENI ES THE THE MOTI ON FO FOR R SUM SUMMARY

22

 J UDGMENT, ENT, THE THE CASE WOULD PRO PROCEED EED, AND THE THE PRELI PRELI MI NARY

23

I NJ UNCTI ON WOUL D REMAI N I N EFF EF FECT ABSENT ABSENT SOM SOME OTHER OTHER ACTI ON FROM

24

A HI HI GHER CO COURT.

25

 THE  THE COURT:

ABSEN SENT THE THE COURT OF APPEALS PPEALS TELLI NG ME

112 112

13: 21: 52

1

 THA  THAT I ' M ALL WET.

2

L ANG ANGUAGE THAN THAN THAT. THAT.

3

DI FF FFER EREN ENT. T.

4 5 6 7

I GOT I T.

I THI THI NK THEI THEI R L ANG ANGUAGE WOUL D BE A L I TTL TTL E

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

 THE  THE COURT: MR. ECH ECHEVERRI EVERRI A ENO ENOUGH.

9

OPPOR PPORTUN TUNI TY. MS. BARVI R:

ABSOLUTELY. LUTELY.

ALL RI GHT.

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:

8

10

THEY THEY WOULD USE MUCH BETTER ETTER

THA THANK YO YOU U.

THAN THANK K YO YOU U, YO YOU UR HONOR.

ALL RI GHT.

SO I ' VE PEPPER PEPPERED

L ET' S SEE I F MAYBE AYBE I CAN GI VE YO YOU U EQU EQUAL

J UST PLEA PL EASE SE REMEMBER I ' M WEAR EARI NG HEELS.

11

SO I T' S A LI L I TTL TTL E HAR HARD DER FOR FOR ME TO STAND STAND HERE QU QUI TE AS LO L ONG AS

12

MY OPPO PP OSI NG COUNSEL. SEL .

13

AND AND KI ND OF I N RESPO RESPONSE TO T O THE DI DI SCUSSI SCUSSI ON THAT THAT WE J UST HEARD

14

AND TO CL OSE UP UP FOR FOR A L I TTLE TTL E BI BI T.

13: 22: 30 15 16

ANYW ANYWAY, I J UST WANT ANT TO SAY A FEW THI THI NGS

I THI THI NK THE THE FI RST THI THI NG I WANT TO MENTI ENTI ON I S THA THAT I  THI  THI NK I T WAS REALL EALLY Y CLEAR LEAR THA THAT THE THE STATE STATE I S CLAI MI NG OVER AND

17

OVER AGAI N - - I T' S ASK ASKII NG THI THI S CO COURT TO APPLY PPL Y I NTERM TERMEDI EDI ATE

18

SCR SCRUTI NY, THA THAT, YO YOU U KN KNO OW, I T' S NO NOT RATI RATI ONAL BASI S REV REVII EW, WE' RE

19

L OOKI NG AT I NTERMEDI EDI ATE SCRU SCRUTI TI NY HERE. HERE.

20

BUT SI TTI NG HERE ERE TOD TODAY, I T SOU SOUNDS MORE LI L I KE THEY' THEY' RE

21

SEEKI NG A TOO TOOTHL THL ESS FORM FORM OF I NTERMEDI EDI ATE SCRU SCRUTI TI NY, MORE AKI AKI N TO

22

RATI RATI ONAL BASI BASI S REVI REVI EW, ONE WHERE I T' S ASKI ASKI NG THI THI S CO COURT TO

23

AFFO AFF ORD SUBSTA SUBSTAN NTI AL DEFERENC EFERENCE TO T O THESE THESE PRED P REDI CTI VE J UDGMENTS, ENTS,

24

 THES  THESE E POLI POLI CY J UDGMENTS ENTS THA THAT THE THE LEGI LEGI SLATU SLATUR RE AND THE THE PEOPLE MADE

25

I N PROP PROP 63 63 AND AND THE TWI N BI L L S THAT WENT ENT TH THROUGH THE LEG LEGII SLATUR SL ATURE E

113 113

13: 23: 09

1

AND AND SEEMI NGL Y ASKI NG THE THE COURT TO VI EW I TS EVI DENC ENCE WI TH AN AN

2

UNCRI TI CAL EYE.

3

HONOR.

THI THI S I S - -

4 5 6

BUT THI THI S I S A REALL EALL Y I MPOR PORTAN TANT CA CASE, YO YOU UR

 THE  THE COURT:

THA THAT DOESN ESN' T CHANGE HOW I VI EW THE THE

EVI EVI DENC ENCE. MS. BARVI R:

I THI THI NK THA THAT' S RI GHT.

I THI THI NK THE THE STA STATE

7

I S ASKI NG YOU TO KI ND OF ACCEP ACCEPT T WHAT I T' S PU PUT FO F ORWARD AND AND WHAT

8

I T' S SAYI NG HERE TO TOD DAY.

9

CRI TI CAL EYE AT AT THE THE EVI EVI DENC ENCE THAT' THAT' S PRESE PRESEN NTED BY THE THE STATE, STATE, I T

10

DOES NO NOT BEAR OUT TH T HE FAI F AI R REL RELATI ATI ONSHI SHI P TH T HAT I S REQU REQUI RED UNDER

11

I NTERMEDI EDI ATE SCRU SCRUTI NY FO F OR THE THE LAW L AW TO BE DEEMED

12

CONSTI TUTI TUTI ONAL.

13 14 13: 23: 58 15

 THE  THE COURT:

BUT BUT WHEN YO YOU U REAL REAL L Y LO L OOK WI TH A

LOO LOOK, ALMOST EVER EVERY Y COURT - - NOT ALMOST - -

EVERY CO COURT THAT THAT HAS HAS LOO LOOKED AT THI THI S I SSUE SSUE HAV HAVE E ALL BASI BASI CAL CAL L Y SAI SAI D I T' S CONSTI TUTI TUTI ONAL.

I T PASS PASSES ES SCR SCRUTI NY, THE THE I NTERM TERMEDI ATE

16

SCRU SCRUTI NY TEST. TEST.

17

SWI M UP AG AGAI NST - - RUN AGAI NST THE THE HEAR EARD, I F YO YOU U WI L L ?

18

I T ABO ABOUT THI S CASE CASE AND AND THE THE STATE OF OF THE THE EVI DENC ENCE I N THI THI S CASE CASE

19 20 21

WHAT MAKES THI THI S ANY ANY DI FFERENT? ERENT?

WHY SHO SHOUL D I WHAT I S

 THA  THAT MAKES KES I T ANY DI FFEREN FFERENT T THA THAN OTHER THER CASES? SES? MS. BARVI R:

WELL, ELL , I THI THI NK FI RST AND FO FOR REMOST, I N

 THI  THI S CI RCUI T WE DON' T HAVE A FI NAL J UDGMENT ENT FR FRO OM A COURT OF

22

APPEAL APPEAL S FROM FROM THE THE NI NI NTH CI RCUI T THAT' THAT' S BAS BASED ED ON MSJ THAT' THAT' S BAS BASED ED

23

ON ALL THE THE EVI DENC ENCE - -

24 25

 THE  THE COURT:

DO YO YOU U THI THI NK THE THE OUTCO TCOME I S GOI NG TO BE

ANY ANY DI DI FF FFEREN ERENT? T?

114 114

13: 24: 48

1 2 3

MS. BARVI R:  THE  THE COURT:

I N THE THE NI NTH? TH? YES. YES.

MS. BARVI R:

I T DEPEND EPENDS ON THE THE PANEL I GUESS. ESS.

4

DON' T KN KNO OW.

5

BECAU BECAUSE SE I THI NK A J UDGE WHO' S LO L OOKI NG AT THI THI S I NDEPEN EPENDENTL ENTLY Y CAN CAN

6

REVI REVI EW THE THE EVI DENCE ENCE AND REAL REAL L Y SEE S EE TH T HAT NO NONE OF OF THO THOSE CASES

7

HAVE AVE SHO SHOWN ANYT ANYTH HI NG THAT' THAT' S DI FFERENT ERENT HERE.

8

WE' L L SEE.

I

I HOPE THE THE ANSW ANSWER WOUL D BE DI FFERENT ERENT

 TO A POTEN POTENTI TI ALLY LL Y POLI POLI TI CAL DECI ECI SI ON.

THEY' THEY' VE J UST CO COME

ULTI MATELY, WE HAVE HERE, ERE,

9

COMI NG FROM HELL EL L ER, I S THAT THAT WHEN WE' RE TALKI NG ABO ABOUT F FII REARM REARMS

10

 THA  THAT ARE COMMONLY PRO PROTECTED TECTED BY LAW- ABI DI NG CI TI ZENS ENS - - THA THAT I S,

11

 THA  THAT THEY THEY ARE WI THI THI N THE THE SCO SCOPE OF THE THE SEC SECOND AMEND ENDMENT ENT - - THER THERE E

12

ARE ARE THI THI NGS THAT THAT THE THE STATE CAN CAN DO.

13

ACQ ACQUI SI TI ON AND POSSESSI POSSESSI ON OF THEM THEM I S A POL POL I CY J UDGMENT ENT THAT' THAT' S

14

OFF THE THE TABL TABL E.

13: 25: 26 15

BUT BUT FL FL ATLY ATL Y BAN BANNI NG THE THE

THAT THAT COMES FROM FROM HELL EL L ER.

 THE  THE COURT:

WE' RE ALREA LREADY PAST PAST THE THE ACQUI SI TI ON.

16

 THA  THAT' S BEI NG CHALLEN LL ENG GED SOMEWHERE ERE ELSE APPAR PPARENTLY. ENTLY.

17

 TALKI  TALKI NG ABOUT POSS POSSES ESSI SI ON.

18 19

MS. BARV BARVII R:  YOU  YOUR HONOR.

WE' RE NOW

THAT' THAT' S BEI NG CHALLEN ALL ENG GED HERE AS WELL EL L ,

REMEMBER, ER, AT THE THE MPI STAG STAGE, THE THE PLAI NTI FFS ONLY

20

CHAL CHALL L ENGED THE PO POSSES SSESSI SI ON BAN BAN BECAUSE BECAUSE I T WAS TH T HE ONE TH T HAT WAS

21

ABO ABOUT TO GO I NTO EFF EF FECT.

22 23

 THE  THE COURT: MS. BARVI R:

THERE THERE WAS THE THE I RREPARAB RREPARABL L E HARM ARM - -

OKAY. KAY.

OKAY. KAY.

GOT I T.

SO YES, YES, THE THE ACQUI SI TI ON I S PAR PART OF THI S

24

DI SCU SCUSSI ON.

I T' S COMPLETELY PL ETELY FLATLY FL ATLY BAN BANNI NG THE THE USE OF THESE THESE

25

PROTECTED TECTED I TEM TEMS BY TH T HE HAN HAND - - I N THE HAN HAND DS AND AND HOMES OF

115 115

13: 25: 58

1

LAW- ABI DI NG CI TI ZENS. ENS.

2

ENTI ENTI TLED TL ED TO THE THE SUBSTA SUBSTAN NTI AL DEFE DEFEREN RENCE THAT THAT THE THE STATE I S ASKI NG

3

FOR FO R HERE.

4 5 6 7

 THE  THE COURT: MS. BARVI ARVI R:  THE  THE COURT: MS. BARVI R:

THA THAT I S A POLI POLI CY J UDGMENT ENT THAT I S NOT

AND WHY NOT? WHAT' S THAT? THAT? AND WHY NOT? BECA ECAUSE I T' S NOT LI KE - - THE THE STATE STATE HAD

8

MENTI ONED A CASE LI L I KE CHO CHOVAN WHERE WE WERE TALKI AL KI NG ABOUT ABOUT

9

WHETHER OR N NO OT A - - I THI THI NK I T WAS A MI SDEM SDEMEANAN EANANT, T, DOMESTI C

10

VI OL ENT ENT MI SDEM SDEMEANAN EANANT T C CO OUL D GET HI HI S FI REARM REARMS RI RI GHTS BACK. BACK.

11

KI NDS OF OF THI THI NGS, THESE THESE REG REGU UL ATI ONS, THESE THESE RESTR RESTRII CTI ONS ON ON

12

CERTAI ERTAI N TYPES TYP ES OF PEO P EOPL PLE, E, NOT LAW L AW- ABI ABI DI NG CI TI ZENS ZENS AN AND OTHER THER

13

CASES CASES LI KE THAT. THAT.

14

OF A FLAT FL AT BAN ON WHAT PL AI NTI FFS ARGUE I S PRO PROTECTED ARM ARMS, THESE THESE

13: 26: 36 15 16 17 18 19

THO THOSE

BUT BUT WHAT WE' RE TALKI TAL KI NG ABO ABOUT HERE HERE I S A CASE CASE

MAGAZI AGAZI NES OVER 10 ROUNDS. AND J UST LI KE THE THE CO COURT I N HELLER ELL ER DI D, BY FI F I NDI NG  THA  THAT I T WAS A POLI POLI CY J UDGMENT ENT TAKE TAKEN N OFF THE THE TAB TABLE FO FOR R THE THE DI STRI STRI CT OF OF COL UMBI A TO BAR BAR HAN HAND DGUNS EVEN EVEN THO THOUGH THEY' THEY' RE MORE  THA  THAN 80 PERC PERCENT ENT OF THE THE TI ME USED SED BY CRI MI NALS WHEN THEY' THEY' RE

20

COMMI TTI NG THEI THEI R CR CRI MES, THA THAT I S NO NOT A DEC DECII SI ON - - THAT THAT DO DOESN' ESN' T

21

COME I NTO PL AY.

22

OVERW VERWHELM EL MI NGL Y BY BY THE THE L AW ABI ABI DI NG.

23

WHAT MATTERS I S THAT THAT THEY' THEY' RE USED YOU YO U J UST CAN CAN'' T BAN BAN THEM THEM.

 THE  THE STATE STATE DOESN ESN' T HAVE THE THE POW POWER TO SAY, SAY, WELL, THER THERE' E' S THI THI S

24

OTHER THI THI NG OVER HERE HERE YO YOU CAN CAN USE THAT THAT MI GHT BE APPRO AP PROP PRI ATE I N

25

SELF SEL F- DEFEN EF ENSE SE OR OR MI GHT BE ENOUGH I N SELF SEL F- DEFEN EF ENSE; SE; SO WE CAN

116 116

13: 27: 13

1

PREVENT YOU YOU FROM USI NG SOM SOMETH ETHI NG YO YOU U' VE CH CHOSEN AND AND I S WI DELY EL Y

2

CHOSEN BY PEOPL PEOPLE E I N THI THI S COUNTRY FO F OR SELFSELF - DEFENSE.

3 4 5

I CAN CAN' T EXPLAI EXPL AI N WHY COURTS ARE ARE FI NDI NG SOM SOMETHI NG COMPL ETEL ETELY Y CON CONTRARY TO THAT THAT BECAUSE BECAUSE HELL HELL ER I S CRYSTAL CLEAR CLEAR ON  THI  THI S POI POI NT.

UNLESS YO YOU UR HONOR HAS ANY MORE QUESTI ESTI ONS ABOUT THE THE

6

SECO SECOND AMEND ENDMENT, ENT, I ' D L I KE TO TALK TAL K BRI BRI EFL Y ABO ABOUT THE TAKI TAKI NGS

7

CLAI M AND AND WHAT HAPPE HAPPEN NED I N RUPP RUPP YESTERD YEST ERDAY, AND AND OF COURSE,

8

WI ESE. ESE.

9 10 11

 THE  THE COURT:

14 13: 27: 59 15

YEAH YEAH, GO AHEAD EAD.

I GOT SOMETHI ETHI NG I WANT

 TO ASK YO YOU U ABOUT THE THE SEC SECOND AMEND ENDMENT, ENT, BUT RI GHT NOW I T J UST SUD SUDDENL ENL Y SL I PPED PP ED MY MI ND.

12 13

MAY I ?

MS. BARV BARVII R:  YOU  YOU.

WE CAN CAN GO BAC BACK, OF COURSE.

I T' S UP TO

YOU YO U HEAR EARD COUNSEL SEL TALKI TALKI NG ABOUT THE THE DECI ECI SI ON THA THAT CAME

DOWN I N RUP RUPP YESTE YESTERD RDAY.

OF COURSE, THAT THAT DEALT EAL T WI TH ASSAUL ASSAUL T

WEAPON EAPONS REGI REGI STRATI STRATI ON AND AND THE STATE' STATE' S NEXT NEXT GEN GENERATI ERATI ON OF ASSAU ASSAUL LT

16

WEAPO EAPON NS REGU EGUL ATI ONS.

17

RECOG RECOGNI ZE TH THAT TH T HE SECO SECON ND AMENDM ENDMENT CLAI CL AI M WAS ON ONL Y ON A MOTI ON

18

FOR FO R PRELI MI NARY ARY I NJ UNCTI ON.

19

WASN' ASN' T CLEAR THAT THAT PLAI PL AI NTI FF FFS S HAD HAD MET THEI THEI R BURD BURDEN, EN, BUT BUT THAT' THAT' S

20

NOT BEEN BEEN DECI ECI DED FI NALL Y AT THI THI S POI POI NT.

21

I THI THI NK I T' S REAL EAL L Y I MPOR PORTANT TANT AG AGAI N TO

SO ON THE THE RECO ECORD AS I T STOOD, I T

WHEN I T COM COMES TO T O THE MOTI ON TO DI SMI SS ON ON THE TAKI NGS

22

CLAI M, WHI CH HAD TO DO WI TH THE THE - - THE THE DO DOJ ' S REQUI REMENT ENT THAT THAT

23

PEOPL PEOPLE E BE ABL ABL E TO ESTABLI ESTABLI SH I THI NK I T WAS THE THE DATE DATE AND AND SOU SOURC RCE E

24

OF WHEN THEY ACQUI RED THE FI REARM AND AND WHERE THEY ACQUI RED I T

25

FROM - - THE THE ASSAUL ASSAUL T WEAPON EAPON - - THE CO COURT FO F OUND I T WAS NO NOT A

117 117

13: 28: 43

1

 TAKI  TAKI NG.

BUT THE THE ANALYSI S THA THAT THE THE COURT PRES PRESEN ENTED TED I N RUPP J UST

2

L I KE I N WEI S WHI CH WAS HAN HAND DED DOWN J UST A LI L I TTL TTL E BI T BEFO BEF ORE

3

 THI  THI S COURT I SSU SSUED I TS OPI NI ON ON OUR MOTI ON FO FOR R PRELI PRELI MI NARY

4 5 6

I NJ UNCTI ON I N J UNE 2017 I S THE THE EXAC EXACT T OPPO OPPOSI SI TE LEG L EGAL AL CO CONCL USI ON  THA  THAT THI THI S COURT MADE I N 2017 2017 AS TO THE THE TAKI TAKI NGS CLAI M I N THI THI S CASE. SE.

7

 THER  THERE' E' S BEEN EEN NO NEW LEGA LEGAL DI SCU SCUSSI SSI ON THA THAT THE THE STATE STATE

8

HAS PU PUT FO F ORWARD AND AND NO NEW FACTUAL ACTUAL EVI DENCE ENCE THAT THAT EI EI THER SI DE

9

HAS PUT P UT FORWARD THAT SHOUL SHOULD D CHANGE WHAT THI S CO COURT URT FOUN UND D ALM ALMOST

10

A YEAR YEAR AGO.

11

QUESTI ESTI ON.

12

PHYSI PHYSI CAL TAKI TAKI NG.

13

US TH T HAT A PH P HYSI YSI CAL TAKI NG CAN I N FACT OCCU OCCUR R WHEN THE GO GOVERNM VERNMENT

14

I TSELF TSEL F DOES NO NOT TAKE PHYSI PHYSI CAL PO P OSSESSI ON OR TI TLE TL E OR OR EVEN EVEN USE

13: 29: 28 15

I THI THI NK THE THE TAKI TAKI NGS CLAI M I S A CLEAR FLA FL AT LEGA LEGAL I T' S VERY ERY CLEA CLEAR R THA THAT THI S I S THE THE QUI NTESSE TESSEN NTI AL

OF T TH HE PROP PROPERTY. ERTY.

THE THE NI NTH CI RCUI T I N RI CHMOND ELKS HALL TELLS TELL S

WHAT WE' RE TAL KI NG ABOUT I S WHETH ETHER OR NOT

16

I T' S BEI BEI NG - - I F THE THE TAKI TAKI NG OF THE THE PRO PROPERTY PERTY I S FUR FURTHER THERII NG A

17

PUBLI PUBLI C PURPO PURPOSE, SE, AND AND THAT' THAT' S FROM FROM THE THE U. U. S. SUPREM SUPREME CO COURT CASE CASE

18

HAWAI I HOUSI NG AUTH AUTHO ORI TY.

19

AS TO THI THI S I DEA THAT THAT BEC BECAU AUSE SE I T' S AN EXER EXERC CI SE OF OF TH T HE

20

POL POL I CE POW POWER THE THE STATE I S ABL ABL E TO EFF EF FECT A TAKI NG WI THOUT

21

COMPEN PENSATI ON, THAT' THAT' S DEMONSTRATI STRATI VELY VEL Y WRONG.

22

CASES, CASES, L ARED AREDO O AND AND L UCAS CAS TEL TEL L US OTH OTHERW ERWI SE.

23 24 25

 THE  THE COURT: MS. BARVI R:  THE  THE COURT:

I ' M SORRY.

THE SUPREME CO COURT

WHAT WAS THA THAT CASE? SE?

LARED LAREDO O AND LUC LUCAS, I BELI EVE. EVE. YEAH YEAH.

ALL RI GHT.

118 118

13: 30: 03

1

MS. BARVI R:

SO AND I N ALL EVEN EVENTS, TS, PLAI NTI FF LOV LOVETTE

2

WHO I S TH T HE REMAI NI NG PL AI NTI FF WHO CURR CURREN ENTL TLY Y OWNS LARG L ARGE

3

CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES AND AND UNTOL D NUMBERS OF MEMBERS OF THE

4

CALI FO FOR RNI A RI RI FLE FL E AN AND PI STOL ASSOCI ATI ON ARE ENTI ENTI TLED TO J UST

5

COMPENSATI PENSATI ON FOR THEI THEI R DI SPOSSESS SPOSSESSII ON OF THESE PARTI PARTI CUL CUL AR

6

PROTECTED TECTED ARMS.

7

MUST PAY PAY I F THER THERE' E' S A PHYSI PHYSI CAL TAKI TAKI NG.

8

FOR ANYT ANYTH HI NG, L ET ALO AL ONE ON ON J UST COMPENSATI PENSATI ON; AND AND AGAI N, THE THE

9

ABI ABI L I TY TO SELL SEL L TO A THI THI RD PARTY WHEN THE THE MARKET ARKET HAS HAS BEEN

THE AG DOES NOT DI DI SPU SP UTE TH T HAT TH THE GO GOVERNM VERNMENT 32310 DOES NOT PROVI DE

10

ARTI FI CI ALL Y DESTR DESTRO OYED I S NO NOT SUFF SUFFII CI ENT ENT TO ENSU ENSUR RE J UST

11

COMPENSATI PENSATI ON I N OR EVEN OUTSI DE OF OF THE THE STATE. STATE.

12

AND ALSO, ALSO, ASI ASI DE FROM OUTSI DE OF THE THE STATE, STATE, EVEN EVEN I F

13

I T' S AN AN AVAI LABLE LABLE AVEN AVENU UE TO SELL OUTSI DE OF THE THE STATE, STATE, I T' S NO NOT

14

APPRO APP ROPRI ATE TO T O SAY TH T HAT TH THE STATE ST ATE SH SHOUL D BE ABL ABL E TO TO RELY REL Y ON ON THE

13: 30: 51 15

PERM PERMI SSI VE LAWS OF OTH OTHER ER J URI SDI SDI CTI ONS, NEAR EARBY J URI SDI SDI CTI ONS I N

16

OTHER THER STATES, STATES, TO J USTI FY I TS OW OWN PHYSI PHYSI CAL TAKI NG WI THO THOUT

17

COMPENSATI PENSATI ON.

18

WI TH THAT THAT SAI SAI D, I WOUL D L I KE TO ASK ASK THE THE CO COURT I F I T

19

HAS ANY OTHER THER QUESTI ONS.

20

WOUL D ASK TH THI S COU COURT TO TO REVI EW THE EVI DENCE ENCE ON ONCE MORE, GRANT

21

PLAI PL AI NTI FF FF'' S MOTI ON FO FOR R SUM SUMMARY ARY J UDGMENT, ENT, AT LEAST I N THE THE

22

ALTE AL TERN RNATI ATI VE FO F OR PARTI AL SUMMARY J UDGMENT ON ON THE DU DUE PRO PROCESS CESS AND

23

I F NOT, I

 TAKI  TAKI NGS CLAI MS.

24 25

I ' M HAPPY TO ANSWER THEM THEM.

 THE  THE COURT: BOTH.

OKAY. KAY.

LET ME - - THA THANK YO YOU U. I THA THANK YO YOU U

BY THE THE WAY, I THI NK YOU YOU BOTH HAVE DONE A WONDERFU ERFUL J OB.

119 119

13: 31: 31

1

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A, YOU STO STOOD UP TO T O MY WHI P- SAWI NG YOU FOR A LO LONG

2

PERI PERI OD OF TI T I ME THI THI S MORNI NG, AND I REALL EALL Y, REALL EALL Y APPREC APPRECII ATE

3

I T.

4

ANSW ANSWER THE QU QUESTI ESTI ON OF WHY I T I S TH THAT J UDGES ALM AL MOST ALW AL WAYS

5

UPHOL D THE STATE' STATE' S RESTRI CTI ONS.

6

WHO - - BY THE THE WAY, I CAN TELL TEL L YO YOU U THAT THAT I RECEI RECEI VE MAI L REGUL ARL ARL Y

7

- - WELL EL L , NOT SO SO MUCH ANYM ANYMORE - - PEOPL PEOPLE E TEL TELL L I NG ME TH THE BLO BL OOD OF

8

I T' S A SER SERI OUS CASE, SE, SOME SER SERI OUS I SSU SSUES. ES.

I THI THI NK I CAN

WHO WANTS ANTS TO BE THE J UDGE

 THES  THESE E CHI LDR LDREN WI LL BE ON YO YOU UR HANDS AND COMMENTS ENTS LI KE THA THAT.

9

WHO WANTS ANTS TO BE THE J UDGE WHO ALL AL L OWS PEOPL E TO CO CONTI NTI NU NUE E TO OWN

10

L ARGE ARGE CAPACI CAPACI TY MAGAZI AGAZI NES OR ASSAUL ASSAULT T WEAPO EAP ONS OR OR MACHI ACHI NE GUN GUNS OR OR

11

WHATEVE HATEVER R WHO WAKES AKES UP I N THE MORNI NG AND FI NDS OUT THAT T HAT SO SOME

12

OTHER DERANG DERANGED ED PERSO ERSON OR SOM SOME TERRO TERRORI RI ST HAS KI L L ED A BUN BUNCH OF

13

 YOU  YOUNG KI DS OR I NNOCENT ENT CHI LDR LDREN. EN.

14 13: 32: 42 15 16

MY CO CONCERN, MY CO CONCERN I S THI THI S:

THE THE BI BI L L OF OF RI GHTS

WASN' ASN' T ADO ADOPTED TED BECAU BECAUSE THERE WAS SOM SOME PEO P EOPL PL E SI SI TTI TT I NG I N SOM SOME  THEO  THEORETI CAL ROOM SOMEWHERE ERE STRO STROKI NG THEI THEI R CHI N AND GOI NG:

17

WELL , I ' M GOI NG TO THI THI NK BI G THO THOUGHTS TODAY.

18

AN I DEA. EA.

19

AMENDMENT TH THAT SAYS SAYS THAT TH THE GO GOVERNM VERNMENT WI L L NOT DI SARM THE

20

POPU POPULATI LATI ON.

21 22 23

HEY, I TELL YO YOU U WHAT.

AND YEAH, YEAH, I GOT

LET' S DO THI THI S.

LET' S PASS PASS AN

YEAH YEAH, THA THAT' S A GOOD I DEA. EA.

 THA  THAT' S NOT WHY I T HAPPENED PPENED AT ALL. LL .

I T HAPPENED PPENED

BECAU ECAUSE SE THESE THESE PEOPL PEOPLE E HAD HAD J UST LI L I VED VED, THEY THEY HAD HAD J UST LI L I VED  THR  THROUGH AN EXPER EXPERII ENC ENCE WHERE ERE THE THE GOVERN ERNMENT, ENT, THE THE VERY ERY GOVERN ERNMENT ENT

24

- - MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A, YO YOU U' RE HER HERE E REPR REPRESE ESEN NTI NG THE THE STATE STATE - - THE THE

25

VERY GO GOVERNM VERNMENT THAT WAS SUPPO SUPP OSED SED TO PROTECT TECT I TS CI TI ZENS WAS

120 120

13: 33: 39

1

I N FACT FACT ABU ABUSI NG I TS CI CI TI ZEN ZENS, AND AND I T WAS DOI NG I T ALL UNDER THE THE

2

PRETENSE OF OF L AW.

3

 TAKE  TAKE,, FO FOR R EXA EXAMPLE, THE THE FO FOU URTH AMEND ENDMENT. ENT.

THE THE FO FOU URTH

4

AMENDMENT, THEY WERE USI NG SOM SOMETH ET HI NG CALL CALL ED THE THE WRI T OF

5

ASSI STAN STANCE CE I N ORDER TO COME I NTO PEO PEOPL E' S HO HOUSE WI THOUT

6

PRO ROBABL BABLE E CAUSE AND TO SEARCH SEARCH AND AND ARREST ARREST AND HAUL PEOPL P EOPLE E AWAY. AY.

7

PEOPL PEOPLE E VERY OF OFTEN FORG FORGET TH T HAT THE FI RST BATT BATTL L E OF OF THE THE

8

REVO REVOL UTI ONARY ARY WAR WAS FOU FOUGHT O ON N APRI APRI L - - I BELI EVE I T WAS APRI APRI L

9

19TH 19T H, 1775. 1775.

AND AND I T WAS FOUGHT, WHY?

BECAU BECAUSE THE THE GOVERNM VERNMENT ENT

10

DECI ECI DED I T WAS GOI NG TO DI SAR SARM, I N THE THE I NTEREST TEREST OF OF TH T HE PUB PUBL I C,

11

I T WAS GOI NG TO DI SAR SARM THE THE PUB PUBL I C, THE THE CO COL ONI STS.

12

MARCH ARCHED UPON L EXI NGTON AND AND CONCORD TO DI SARM THE POPULATI POPULATI ON.

13

AND AND SO WHEN THEY WERE DRAFT DRAFTII NG THE BI L L OF RI GHTS, TS,

14 13: 34: 41 15

AND THEY THEY

 THES  THESE E PEOPLE WHO HAD J UST LI VED THR THROUGH THI THI S EXPER EXPERII ENC ENCE - - THI THI S WASN ASN' T THEO THEOR RETI CAL.

I T WASN ASN' T HYPOTH YPOTHETI ETI CAL.

I T WASN ASN' T SOM SOME

16

BI G THI THI NK TANK TANK MOVEMENT. ENT.

THEY THEY LI L I VED THRO THROUGH THI THI S, AND AND THEY THEY

17

DECI DED, ED, YO YOU U KN KNO OW, THERE' S CERTAI N THI NGS THAT THAT WE WANT ANT TO TO TEL TEL L

18

 THE  THE GOVERN ERNMENT ENT THA THAT THEY THEY CANNOT DO.

19

 THI  THI NGS.

20 21 22 23 24 25

WI NDOWS.

YOU YO U CAN DO A LOT LOT OF

YOU YO U CAN TELL PEOPLE YO YOU U CAN' T DRI VE CARS WI TH TI NTED YOU YO U CAN CAN TEL TEL L PEO PEOPL E THAT THAT YOU YOU HAVE TO HAVE A GFCI I N

 YOU  YOUR BATHR THROOM AND EVER EVERY Y OTHER THER 20 FEET. MUST WEAR A SEATBEL SEATBEL T.

YOU YO U CAN TELL ME YO YOU U

NONE OF TH T HOSE TH THI NGS ARE PROTECTE TECTED D BY

 THE  THE BI LL OF RI GHTS. BUT BUT THE PEO P EOP PL E WHO F OUNDED THI THI S COU COUNTRY - - WHO I N MY OPI NI ON WERE SO SOME OF OF THE SMARTEST ARTES T PEO P EOP PL E EVER EVER ON ON THE FACE F ACE OF OF

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 THE  THE PLANET PLANET - - CAME UP WI TH THI THI S I DEA, EA, CAME UP WI TH THI THI S

2

EXPERI EXPERI MENT, ENT, AND AND THEY WERE VERY MUCH AFRAI D, VERY MUCH AFRAI D

3

 THA  THAT THEY THEY MI GHT PERH PERHAPS BE FACI FACI NG I N THE THE FUTU FUTUR RE THE THE VERY ERY SAM SAME

4

 THI  THI NG THEY THEY J UST LI VED THR THROUGH, AND THEY THEY DI DN' T WANT THA THAT TO

5 6 7 8 9

HAPPEN. APP EN.

THEY DI DI D NOT WANT ANT TO TO THE GO GOVERNM VERNMENT TO TEL TEL L THEM WHAT

 THEY  THEY COULD DO AND WHAT THEY THEY COULD NOT DO WI TH REGARDS TO CERTA ERTAII N THI THI NGS. NOW WE UND UNDERSTAND, REALL REALL Y, WE UND UNDERSTAND, OF COURSE,  THA  THAT I N THE THE REAL EAL WORLD, LD, YO YOU U CAN' T HAVE A FI RST AMEND ENDMENT ENT

10

WI THOUT RESTRI RESTRI CTI ONS, AND AND YOU CAN' CAN' T HAVE HAVE A FO FOURTH AMENDMENT

11

WI THO THOUT RESTRI RESTRI CTI ONS.

12

COUL D BE SAVED I F WE SI MPLY PL Y SAI D:

13

NI CE THO THOUGHT, BUT BUT YO Y OU KN KNO OW WHAT, WE' RE J UST NOT GO GOI NG TO TO..

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BUT BUT J UST THI THI NK ABO ABOUT HOW MANY ANY L I VES FOURTH AMEND ENDMENT, ENT, THAT' THAT' S A

 THER  THERE' E' S A GREATER EATER PUB PUBLI C I NTEREST TEREST I N ALLO LL OWI NG LAW ENFO ENFOR RCEMENT ENT  TO BARGE I NTO PEOPLE' S HOUSE AND SEA SEARCH THEI THEI R HOUSES SES WI THO THOUT

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PROBAB PROBABL L E CAUSE. CAUSE.

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CRII MES COUL D BE SOL CR SOL VED, VED, HOW MANY ANY PEO PEOPL E COU COUL D BE SAVED I F WE

18

COUL D COERCE ERCE CONFESSI ONS FROM PEO PEOPLE. PL E.

19 20 21

FI FTH AMEND ENDMENT. ENT.

THI NK OF HOW MANY ANY MORE

YEAH, YEAH, FI FTH AMEND ENDMENT, ENT,

 YOU  YOU KNOW, I T' S A GREAT EAT I DEA, EA, BUT THE THE PUB PUBLI C I NTERES TEREST T OUTWEI GHS PEOPL PEOPLE E HAV HAVII NG THE THE RI GHT TO NOT I NCRI MI NATE THEM THEMSELVES. SEL VES. SO I THI THI NK THI THI S I S VER VERY, VERY ERY DI DI FF FFII CULT BECA ECAUSE WHO

22

WANTS ANTS TO SEE CHI CHI L DREN BEI NG SHO SHOT AND AND KI L L ED OR OTHER OTHER PEOPL PEOPL E

23

BEI NG SHO SHOT OR OR L AW ENF ENFORC RCEM EMENT ENT BEI NG SHO SHOT.

24

WE DON' T WANT ANT THAT TO T O HAPPEN APP EN DO DOESN ESN' T MEAN THAT TH THE STATE STATE GETS ETS

25

BUT BUT SI MPLY PL Y BECAU BECAUSE SE

 TO HAVE I TS WAY HOWEVER EVER I T WANTS, WHENEV ENEVER ER I T WANTS, UNDER SOME

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RUBRI C THA THAT, WELL, ELL , YO YOU U KN KNO OW, I T' S A REASO EASONABLE FI T.

2

AS I ASKED MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A OVER AND AND OVER AND AND OVER AGAI N, WHEN I S

3

I T NO NOT A REASONABL ABL E FI T?

4 5

BECA ECAUSE,

HOW DO WE MAKE THAT THAT DECI SI ON?

AND AND MY QU QUESTI EST I ON I S: ARE WE NO NOT THERE?  THE  THE LAWS, ALL OF THE THE REGULATI ONS.

L OOK AT AT ALL ALL OF OF

I ' VE LOO LOOKED KED AT ALL THI THI S

6

EVI DENCE, ENCE, AND AND FRANKLY, KL Y, WI TH AL AL L OF THE GU GUN L AWS THAT WE HAVE, HAVE,

7

AND AND WE HAVE MANY ANY, MANY ANY, MANY ANY, MANY, HAVE WE REAL REALL L Y DONE

8

ANYTH ANYTHII NG AT ALL TO SOL SOL VE THE THE GU GUN VI OL ENC ENCE PRO P ROBLEM I N THE THE UN UNI TED

9

STATES? STATES?

AND AND THE THE ANSW ANSWER I S NO.

NO.

WE J UST KEEP WHI TTL TT L I NG

10

AWAY AT THE SECO SECOND AMEND ENDMENT, ENT, KEEP WHI TTL TT L I NG AWAY, WHI TTL TT L I NG

11

AWAY UN UNTI L EVENTUA EVENTUAL L L Y WE' L L GET TO THE THE PO P OI NT WHERE WE' L L BE

12

WHERE HERE PEOPL E ARE ALL AL L OWED TO OWN ONE GUN WI TH ONE ROUND ROUND OF

13

AMMUNI TI ON BECAU BECAUSE ANYTHI NG ELSE EL SE BEYON BEYOND THAT THAT WI L L BE A

14

REASO EASONABLE FI T.

13: 38: 35 15

 THO  THOSE ARE MY PRELI PRELI MI NARY THO THOUGHTS.

BUT I ' M NOT FI XED

16

ON THAT. THAT.

17

BOTH HAVE HAVE DO DONE A WONDERFU ERF UL J OB REPRESE REPRESEN NTI NG YOUR YOUR RESPECT RESPECTII VE

18

POSI POSI TI ONS AN AND ANSW ANSWERI NG MY QU QUESTI ONS.

19 20 21

WHAT I ' D L I KE FO FOR R YO YOU U TO DO - - AND AGAI N, I THI THI NK YO YOU U

BUT BUT WHAT I ' D L I KE FOR FOR

 YOU  YOU TO DO I S I ' D LI KE FO FOR R YO YOU U TO FI LE - - YO YOU U SORT OF HEAR EARD MY CONCERNS.

AND AND YO YOU U HEARD - - YO YOU U OBVI OUSLY SL Y KN KNO OW THE THI NGS THAT THAT

 TRO  TROUBLE ME.

YOU YO U KNOW THE THE THI THI NGS THA THAT MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A HAS NOW

22

ARGUED TO ME AN AND THE EVI DENCE ENCE THEY' VE ARGUED. ED.

23

KNO KN OWS YO Y OUR POSI POSI TI ON.

24 25

MR. ECHEVERRI ECHEVERRI A

I ' D LI KE FO FOR R YO YOU U TO TO,, WI THI THI N THE THE NEX NEXT T 30 DA DAYS, TO FI LE A BRI BRI EF BRI BRI EF.

I DON' T WANT ANT TO DECI ECI MATE AN ANY MORE SMALL

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1

FORESTS.

2

SUMMARI ZE YOU YOUR POSI POSI TI ON, TRY TO T O ANSW ANSWER SOM SOME OF OF MY QU QUESTI EST I ONS I F

3

OKAY?

I F YOU YOU CAN CAN KEEP I T DOWN TO 25 PAGES PAGES OR L ESS,

 YOU  YOU CAN, CI TATI TATI ONS TO CASES SES AND SPEC SPECI FI C CI TATI TATI ONS TO TOO O.

SO

4

DON' T J UST TELL ME, DX 29.

5

OR WHATEVE ATEVER R SO I CAN GO BACK AND AND L OOK AT I T AND AND TRY AND SEE SEE

6

WHETHER OR NO NOT I T ACTUALL ACTUALL Y SU SUPPO PP ORTS WHAT I T I S TH THAT YOU YOU' RE

7

SAYI SAYI NG.

8 9

TELL TEL L ME, DX 29, L I NE 5 THRO THROUGH 17

I F YO YOU U CAN CAN DO THAT THAT WI THI N THE NEXT NEXT 30 30 DAYS, DAYS, AND AND THEN I ' L L GI GI VE YO YOU U 10 DAYS TO FI L E A RESPON ESPONSE TO EAC EACH OTHER THER'' S.

10

OKAY. KAY.

11

AND AND THEN THEN I ' L L DECI DECI DE ONE WAY OR THE THE OTHER. THER.

12

OF YO YOU U HAVE ANYT ANYTH HI NG ELSE EL SE YO Y OU WI SH TO OFFER, I THAN THANK YO YOU BOTH

13

FOR PRESENTI PRESENTI NG YO YOU UR CASES CASES AS WELL EL L AS YOU YOU HAVE. AVE.

14

UNDERST ERSTA AND I T' S A DI FFI CULT, I T' S A DI FFI CULT CH CHOI CE.

13: 40: 57 15 16

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

23

BUT I

RI GHT?

SO

ONE CL ARI ARI FYI NG QUESTI ON, YO YOU UR

HONOR.  THE  THE COURT:

20

22

AND AND AGAI AGAI N, I

I ' L L DO MY BEST AND AND THEN THEN OF COURSE - -

19

21

UNL ESS EI THER ONE

GUESS THAT' THAT' S WHAT THEY THEY PAY ME THE BI G BUCK BUCKS S FOR.

17 18

AND AND THEN THEN I ' M GOI NG TO TAKE THE THE MATTER UNDER SUBM SUBMI SSI ON,

SUR SURE.

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:

FOR FO R THE THE SUPPL SUPPLEM EMENTA ENTAL L BR BRI EFI NG, I S

 THI  THI S GOI NG TO BE FO FOC CUSED SED EXC EXCLUSI LUSI VELY ON THE THE SEC SECOND AMEND ENDMENT ENT CL AI M?

I GOT THE THE I MPRESSI PRESSI ON THAT THAT I S THE THE CASE. ASE.  THE  THE COURT:

I THI THI NK SO.

I THI THI NK I T' S A DI FFI CULT

24

 THE  THE OTHER THER I SSU SSUE, AS EVI EVI DENC ENCED BY THE THE AMOUNT OF TI ME THA THAT YO YOU U

25

BOTH SPEN SPENT T ON THE THE OTHER OTHER I SSUE, I THI NK TH THE SECO SECOND AMENDMENT ENT

--

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1

I SSUE SSUE I S THE THE MOST DI FF FFII CUL T I SSUE. SSUE.

2

DO THAT. THAT.

3 4

MR. ECH ECHEVER EVERR RI A:  THE  THE COURT:

5 6

MS. BARVI R:  THE  THE COURT:

7 8 9 10 11

 TAKE  TAKE CARE.

ABSOLUTELY. LUTELY.

ALL RI GHT.

I S THER THERE E ANYTHI YTHI NG ELSE?

I DON' T HAVE ANYTHI YTHI NG. ANY QUESTI ESTI ONS?

MR. ECHEVERR ECHEVERRII A:  THE  THE COURT:

SO I WOUL D PREFER THAT THAT YO YOU U

NO, YO YOU UR HONOR.

I F NOT, THA THANK YO YOU U VERY ERY MUCH.

YOU YO U ALL

THI THI S HEAR EARI NG I S CONCLUD LUDED. ( MATTER ATTER CONCLUDED CLUDED.. ) C- E- R- T- I - F- I - C- A- T- I - O- N

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I HEREB EREBY Y CERTI ERTI FY THA THAT I AM A DULY APPOI PPOI NTED, QUALI FI ED AND AND ACTI ACTI NG OFFI CI AL COU COURT REPORTER REPORTER FOR FOR THE THE UN UNI TED STATES STATES DI STRI CT CO COURT; THAT THAT THE FOREG FOREGOI NG I S A TRUE TRUE AND AND CORRECT RRECT  TRA  TRANSCR SCRI PT OF THE THE PRO PROCEED EEDI NGS HAD I N THE THE AFO FOR REMENTI ENTI ONED CAUSE; SE;  THA  THAT SAI SAI D TRA TRANSCR SCRI PT I S A TRU TRUE AND CORRECT ECT TRA TRANSCR SCRI PTI ON OF MY STEN STENO OGRAPHI RAPHI C NO NOTES; TES; AND AND THAT THAT TH T HE FO F ORMAT USED HEREI N COMPL I ES WI TH THE THE RUL RUL ES AND AND REQUI REMENTS ENTS OF OF TH T HE UN UNI TED STATES J UDI CI AL CONFERENCE. DATED: TED: MAY 16, 2018, 2018, AT SAN SAN DI EGO EGO, CALI FO FOR RNI A.

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/ S/ J ULI ET Y. EI CHENLAU LAUB  J ULI ET Y. EI CHENLAU ENLAUB B, RPR, PR, CSR OFF FFII CI AL COURT REPORTER CERTI CERTI FI ED SHO SHORTHAN RTHAND D REPORTER REPORTER NO. 12084

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