NEWS OF THE WEEK N E W S M A K E R I N T E R V I E W : L U C M O N TA TA G N I E R
French Nobelist Escapes ‘Intellectual Terror’ to Pursue Radical Ideas in China
Q: Many of your colleagues seem to be extremely skeptical. L.M.: Well, I was skeptical myself in the beginning. But these are facts. The findings are very reproducible and we are waiting for confirmation by other labs.
Virologist gist and Nobel laureate Luc PARIS—Virolo
duces structural changes in water, which Montagnier announced earlier this month persist at very high dilutions, and which Q: You have called Benveniste a modern that, at age 78, he will take on the leader- lead to resonant electromagnetic signals that Galileo. Why? ship of a new research institute at Jiaotong we can measure. Not all DNA produces sig- L.M.: Benveniste was rejected by everybody everybody,, University in Shanghai. What has shocked nals that we can detect with our device. The because he was too far ahead. He lost everymany scientists, however, isn’t Montagnier’s high-intensity signals come from bacterial thing, his lab, his money. … I think he was departure from France but what he plans to and viral DNA. mostly right, but the problem was that his study in China: electromagnetic waves that results weren’t 100% reproducible. Montagnier says emanate from the highly Q: What do you think are the potential diluted DNA of various pathogens. medical applications? Q: Do you think there’s something to Montagnier, who won a 2008 Nobel L.M.: I have found these signals coming homeo homeopathy pathy as well? Prize for his di scovery of HIV, HIV, claims that from bacterial DNA in the plasma of many L.M.: I can’t say that homeopathy is right in those signals—which he described in two patients with autism, and also in most, if not everything. What I can say now is that the little-noticed papers in 2009—can reveal the all, patients with Alzheimer, Parkinson’s Parkinson’s dis- high dilutions are right. High dilutions of bacterial or viral origins of many conditions, ease, and multiple sclerosis. It seems that the something are not nothing. They are water including autism and Alzheimstructures which mimic the origier’ss disease. The work could suger’ nal molecules. We find that with gest novel therapies, he says. DNA, we cannot work at the But Montagnier’s new direcextremely high dilutions used in tion evokes one of the most homeopathy; we cannot go further notorious affairs in French scithan a 10-18 dilution, or we lose the ence: the “water memory” signal. But even at 10-18, you can study by immunologist Jacques calculate that there is not a single Benveniste. Benveniste, who molecule of DNA left. And yet we died in 2004, claimed in a 1988 detect a signal. Nature paper that IgE antibodies have an effect on a certain cell Q: Can’t you pursue this research type even after being diluted by in France? a factor of 10120. His claim was L.M.: I don’t have much fundinterpreted by many as evidence ing here. Because of French for homeo pathy, which uses retirement laws, I’m no longer extreme dilutions that most sciallowed to work at a public instientists say can’t possibly have a tute. I have applied for funding biological effect. After a weeklong investi- bacteria we are detecting are coming from from other sources, but I have been turned gation at Benveniste’s lab, Nature lab, Nature called the the gut. So it is quite possible that products down. There is a kind of fear around this paper a “delusion.” from gut bacteria end up in the plasma and topic in Europe. I am told that some people Science talked to Montagnier, who is cause damage to the brain. have reproduced Benveniste’s results, but founder and president of the World FounThe waves give us a biomarker to test for they are afraid to publish it because of the dation for AIDS Research and Prevention, the presence of these bacteria, even when we intellectual terror from people who don’t last week. Questions and answers have been can’t detect them with classical techniques understand it. edited for brevity and clarity clarity.. like PCR. So when we treat these diseases –MARTIN ENSERINK with antibiotics, our hope is to see the patho- Q: Are the Chinese more open to it? gen disappearing. One idea is to set up a clini- L.M.: I think so. I have visited Jiaotong Unical trial in autism here in France. We We will first versity several times, and they are quite openQ: Why are you going to Shanghai? InterdisciplinL.M.: I have been offered a professorship and show that we can detect bacterial DNA in the minded. The editor-in-chief of [ Interdisciplina new institute, which will bear my name, to plasma of autistic children and not in a healthy ary Sciences: Computational Life Sciences,] Sciences,] work on a new scientific movement at the control group. Then, if we get agreement from the journal in which I have published two crossroads of physics, biology, and medicine. an ethical committee, autistic children can papers on this topic, is based there as well. The main topic will be this phenomenon of be treated with antibiotics to see whether electromagnetic waves produced by DNA in the DNA signal disappears and their clini- Q: Aren’t you worried that your colleagues water. We We will study both the theoretical theor etical basis cal condition improves. In the future, we may will think you have drifted into pseudo- M O C and the possible applications in medicine. use these findings not just for diagnostics but science? S W also for treatment. It’s possible that electro- L.M.: No, because it’s not pseudoscience. E N : T magnetic waves at some frequency will kill It’ It’ss not quackery. These are real phenomena I Q: What exactly are these waves? D E R which deserve further study study.. L.M.: What we have found is that DNA pro- the waves produced by bacterial DNA. C 1732
24 DECEMBER 2010
VOL 330
SCIENCE
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