Traditional Education

Table of Content ©2010 by Varëäçrama Book Trust (VBT) All Rights Reserved No part of this book may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form, by any means, including mechanical, electronic, photocopying, recording, or otherwise, without the prior written permission of the publisher. Varëäçrama Book Trust (VBT) wishes to express its gratitude to the BBT and the Bhaktivedanta Archives for the permission given to use verses, purports and photos. All these are © Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International, Inc. First printing (India 2011): 2000 Copies Printed by the Varëäçrama Book Trust (VBT).

Acknowledgments Preface

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Introduction

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Chapter 1

Interview of Bhakti Räghava Swami

Chapter 2

Interview of Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami

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Chapter 3

Lecture by Bhakti Vikäça Swami

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Chapter 4

Interview of Ätmatattva Däsa

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Chapter 5

Interview of Gopéparäëadhana Däsa

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Chapter 6

Conclusion by Bhakti Räghava Swami

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Appendix

List & Index of the Interview Questions

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ISBN: 978-81-920780-1-4 Glossary

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Interested readers may write to the publisher at:

Index

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Varëäçrama Book Trust (VBT) Near Bangaru Gudde School, Bangaru Gudde, Hebri 576 112 Karkala Taluk, Udupi District, State of Karnataka, India Phone: [91] 9866655902 Çréväsa Däsa E-mail: [email protected]

VBT Publications

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www.iskconvarnasrama.com

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Acknowledgements The publishers would like to take this opportunity to thank warmly all the devotees who made this valuable book possible, beginning with the five senior disciples of Çréla Prabhupäda who agreed to be interviewed, and shared their valuable experience and realizations in regards to traditional education and devotional life: His Holiness Bhakti Räghava Swami, His Holiness Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami, His Holiness Bhakti Vikäça Swami, Çréman Ätmatattva Däsa, and Çréman Gopéparäëadhana Däsa. These are all great and unique personalities; it has been an honor to put their wisdom and guidance on paper. This book would not have taken place if it was not for the valuable service of Çréman Bhagératha Däsa (BRS) who took the trouble to travel around, conduct the interviews, and transcribe them, all this while being a full-time student of the rigorous ÇrémadBhägavata Vidyäpéöham in Çré Govardhana. We also want to express our gratitude to the VBT team who worked on this project: His Holiness Bhakti Räghava Swami for the inspiration and for writing the preface, introduction, and conclusion of the book, Rädhäpriyä Devé Däsé for completing the transcriptions, Çrématé Våndävana Lélä Devé Däsé (BRS), Gaìgägaté Devé Däsé (BRS) and Räsamaëòala Däsa (BRS) for pre-editing the transcripts, Hådaya Caitanya Däsa (BRS) for the editing, graphics and layout, and Çré Räma Däsa (BRS) for organizing the printing. We want to express our special appreciation to Guru Kåñëa Däsa (TKG) for his expert proofreading of the material. We wish to thank Kiçora Däsa (BVKS) and Vidvän Gauräìga Däsa (JPS) for helping with the Sanskrit, Kirticandra Däsa (ACBSP) for providing pictures, and Prabhu Nétyänanda Däsa (BRS) for his various contributions.

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ii Last but not least, we thank you, the reader, for picking up this book and showing an interest to this neglected branch of our mission. Traditional education is very much needed to rectify our shortcomings in ISKCON, generate leaders, and push this movement forward with great force—“purity is the force.” Without gurukula, we cannot get standard brähmaëas and kñatriyas; without them varëäçrama is impossible, without varëäçrama our society will never be so progressive. We must give our children the best possible engagement in Kåñëa consciousness. Please help to spread this important message and, if possible, order some copies of our books and distribute them in your area. Thank you. The Publishers.

Preface Traditional education is practically a thing of the past, something that most of us have never even seen, what to speak of experienced. We are generally ignorant of what it is. The modern academia speaks about it in negative connotations. Traditional education is presented as outdated, backward, irrelevant, and even prejudiced. In the most polite of cases, it is considered to be primitive civilizations’ early attempts at education, which eventually led to our “glorious” academia of today—which supposedly reaches heights that were never achieved before. Most of us who were molded by today’s modern education were exposed to such propaganda, to some extent. Our modern conditioning influences us and makes us (even devotees) apprehensive of traditional education. Such are the effects of atheism. In the university where I took up postgraduate studies in education, just a few years ago, the traditional gurukula system of India and the traditional pondok pesantren system of Indonesia were classified as “non-formal education.” In the Indonesian language, the specific term for describing these is pendidikan luar sekolah, literally, “education outside of school.” Ironically, what today is classified as “education outside of school” (non-formal education) was traditionally the only education taught in the school settings such as gurukula or pondok pesantren, and was considered formal education. All other education was “outside of school,” the equivalent of what is today called “vocational training” or “apprenticeship” (nonformal education). The educational culture has basically done a full somersault, such that non-formal education is now considered formal, and formal education considered non-formal. Today’s science and technology promote studies and research that deal primarily with the advancement of vocational trades (computer and other machineoriented technology) and give less importance to the academic fields of theology, philosophy, and humanities. How has this come about, and what kind of results can we expect from it? A substantial portion of the answer lies in the following statement: “The effects of the Sophists on education necessarily make one wonder whether it is wise to entrust education to the technicians rather than the philosophers.” (Pratt, David—Curriculum: Design and Development)

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iv We have indeed allowed educational policies to be influenced and dictated by the interests of political leaders, powerful industrial magnets, technocrats, and scientists—all of whom tend to lack wisdom and push a different ethos. Due to their materialistic training, such “leaders” are ill-motivated, greedy, short-sighted, and devoid of philosophical or spiritual insight.: Today’s so-called education is actually promoting avidyä (nescience), because the core eternal principles of knowledge are missing. If an educational system or pursuit is to elevate any human being, it must be governed by those essential principles. Modern educators’ very definition of knowledge and education is flawed, as well as their aim, because they ignore Kåñëa. Put simply, when education is used for promoting materialistic pursuits, the result must be shortcomings and failures, because neither the nature nor purpose of education is appreciated. In the name of such so-called education, teachers and students are simply playing a costly game. As explained by Çréla Prabhupäda: “Unless in the human society the varëäçrama system is introduced, no scheme or social order, health order or any order, political order, will be successful.” (Conversation—Våndävana, 18 October 1977) Where and how we live also shape our education. Sociology and education go hand in hand. Whatever a society values will dictate its curricula and education and consequently will shape the future of that society. Hence it is crucially important to understand the intimate connection between education and society. And that connection is relevant not only in the formative years, but all throughout one’s life. As indicated by Çréla Prabhupäda (above), unless we understand the essence of an ideal society (varëäçrama), any attempt to develop effective and meaningful educational systems will fail. Moreover, one must know that, if disconnected from Kåñëa, varëäçrama and its educational systems will yield only very temporary, material success. Therefore, to reveal the goal of life and bring about lasting happiness, education should be based on daiva-varëäçrama. The beneficiary of such an education will be properly situated both materiality and spiritually. Vedäntic sociology, or daiva-varëäçrama-dharma, is the most ideal, most scientific, and most fulfilling educational institution. It will make one vastly learned, organized, productive, skilled, cultured, wise, and, ultimately, self-realized.

Persons interested in this subject matter are invited to read the books of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupäda, in particular the Bhagavad-gétä and Çrémad-Bhägavatam. One may also correspond with this humble servant of His Divine Grace or visit our website dedicated to varëäçrama-dharma at:

www.iskconvarnasrama.com Hare Kåñëa. Bhakti Räghava Swami

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Introduction Traditional education brings us back to the basics. Readers of this book will learn from the senior devotees interviewed herein that education cannot be separated from spirituality, culture, and philosophy, and that when it is—whether by intent, neglect, or circumstances—the result is disastrous. An “education” not rooted in spirituality is a fantasy, because it is not based on reality. The most essential aspect of life is spiritual existence, or the soul’s journey toward Kåñëa. At the time of death, everything but one’s spiritual assets is lost; therefore no one is truly benefited by an “education” that does not elevate him spiritually. This may sound fanatical to some, but Çréla Prabhupäda was of the opinion: “Actually there is no education without spiritual knowledge. One can learn to earn bread, eat, sleep and mate without a formal education. Animals are not educated—they are not technicians, and they have no university degrees—but they are also eating, sleeping, mating and defending. If the educational system simply teaches these processes, it does not deserve the name of education. Real education enables us to understand what we are. As long as man does not develop his consciousness by understanding the truth of the self, all of his actions will be performed in the mode of ignorance.” (The Matchless Gift, chapter 3) Of course, education should also teach one how to live in this world, but only in harmony with spiritual ideals. Education must include both the material and the spiritual dimension of reality; this is the real meaning of the term “holistic education.” Actual culture begins when people respect spiritual beliefs and apply universal spiritual concepts that are found in almost all of the world’s religions—but are precisely defined in the Vedic teachings. That culture must entail spirituality is the opinion of all great, erudite sages. One should know that just as religion cannot be manufactured by man, dharmaà tu säkñäd bhagavat-praëétam (SB 6.3.19), the principles of education also cannot be concocted. Until a few hundred years ago, all throughout the world, whether one studied purely religious

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viii topics or secular topics, the connection with spirituality remained strong. It was a common understanding that the human form of life is meant for spiritual upliftment, for realizing the self, not simply for economic development or gross sense gratification. This was so because of the still-remaining influence of the Vedas, which have been given by the Lord Himself. In Vedic culture, this ideology was promoted widely, not only by saintly persons but also by kings and their governments. These principles had taken root in al regions of the world, but due to the influence of Kali-yuga they gradually dwindled. Vedic education stressed character formation and spiritual values, and was fostered by a simple and natural lifestyle. Humans were taught to keep their material needs basic, and to meet them by harmonious interaction with nature. They were taught “simple living and high thinking,” a truly holistic approach to life. In meeting the material necessities of life, Äryans would not disconnect themselves spiritually. In fact, all ancient Asian civilizations saw spirit within matter, and dealt with matter according to spiritual values. An education without spirituality would have been seen as incomplete and disconnected. In Vedic culture, the purpose of education is considered to be more important than its methodology. Not that methods are devalued, but the focus of the education is on the ultimate goal. The primary goal of an education is not to secure employment or a better position, because the ultimate goal of life is to become free from this temporary world and to return back to the spiritual world to serve Kåñëa. In a Vedic society, one’s entire life was considered to be a learning experience. Life was education, and education was life. Education began from the moment of conception and would continue till one’s last breath. One would develop his potential of body, mind, intelligence, and soul (microcosm) so as to contribute to the development and upliftment of the world (macrocosm). There is an urgent need to revive a collective understanding of such principles. Because society has deviated from these pure concepts, it faces so many calamities. It is our duty to bring this understanding to the world. We pray that this publication will serve that end.

Chapter 1 Interview of His Holiness Bhakti Räghava Swami Conducted by Çréman Bhagératha Däsa (BRS) Siem Reap, Kingdom of Cambodia, January 2008 1. What is your understanding of education? Or, according to you, what constitutes education? Bhakti Räghava Swami: From çästras we understand that education is the imparting of material and spiritual knowledge—because reality encompasses both the material and the spiritual. The explanation given by Çréla Prabhupäda is “knowledge means to know matter and spirit and the controller of both.” (Bg 2.11, purport) The ultimate goal of that education is self-realization. An education that does not emancipate one spiritually is not a real education. Today’s education, being limited to the gross material sphere, cannot be accepted as genuine. In the Bhagavad-gétä we find the term räja-vidyä, “the king of knowledge.” The knowledge of the Bhagavad-gétä is eternal, and Lord Kåñëa speaks in detail about prakåti, describing material nature and its twenty-four elements along with Säìkhya philosophy. Çréla Prabhupäda and the previous äcäryas gave so much importance to the Bhagavad-gétä because it is a complete presentation of both the spiritual reality and the material energy. One verse in Knowledge of the Absolute states: jïänaà te ’haà sa-vijïänam idaà vakñyämy açeñataù yaj jïätvä neha bhüyo ’nyaj jïätavyam avaçiñyate “I shall now declare unto you in full this knowledge, both phenomenal and numinous. This being known, nothing further shall remain for you to know.” (Bg 7.2) 2. How should we impart education in general society, on the one hand, and within our ISKCON, on the other?

Traditional Education

Bhakti Räghava Swami

Bhakti Räghava Swami: Çréla Prabhupäda mentioned that if we do things properly, according to our Vedic scriptures and culture, education will become simple. The system of varëäçrama, when understood and applied properly, simplifies education very much. Education is actually a way of life. The popular saying “Education is life, and life is education,” is indeed in line with our philosophy. In Vedic culture, the system of varëäçrama is itself education, and it is sometimes described as an educational system. We do not really need the kind of infrastructures that exists today, with big buildings and large paid staff. It is no longer education; it has become business. Education is meant to be given freely to students, as in a gurukula. The majority of people do not need to attend these large institutions. Especially devotees should understand their own culture, instead of blindly rushing in there. They should live in a natural way, as the Vedic scriptures prescribe. Unless we understand what varëäçrama is, we will not understand what genuine education is. Education and varëäçrama are intimately related. We cannot speak of education without speaking of varëäçrama, and vice versa. When we know how to live, we know how to educate. There is a specific class, the brähmaëas, who arrange education. Vedic education is given within varëas and äçramas, and the brähmaëas play a role in both. It is a very simple process of unlimited scope. In modern society, we have a very complicated system of education because it has deviated so much. In Vedic culture, certain things—such as knowledge, land, or food—are free. Some exchange might be there, but generally food is distributed for free. When we lose the spiritual perspective, everything becomes abnormal. We use the same words—education, knowledge, development—but they mean something completely different. Development is an important word in modern society, but it points solely to market growth and things like that. In Vedic culture, the same word invariably implies spiritual development.

Bhagératha Däsa: Your Holiness mentioned that real education is to study spirit and matter, and is imparted for free, with basically no salary for teachers. But in some places in ISKCON, the students are required to pay for courses, like bhakti-çästré, etc. Could Your Holiness comment on this?

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Bhagératha Däsa: And education within our own society? Bhakti Räghava Swami: Within ISKCON, education will become natural and tangible when we apply the system of varëäçrama. The few educational institutions that we have in ISKCON mostly fall outside of varëäçrama. In some instances, they are practically parallel to modern education, which may cause us to lose sight of our real purpose. When basic principles are not applied, education loses potency. For example, we often bypass the key requirement that students and teachers should live together.

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Bhakti Räghava Swami: No, the student should not pay. In the Vedic system, knowledge was not treated like a commodity; it is not a business. There should be some kind of exchange or reciprocation— some variety of service—but not a business fee. The atmosphere should be that only those qualified deserve to receive education, not everyone who pays. Education has five components. The first is its definition—it is mandatory for education to cover the knowledge of both matter and spirit. It should guide one toward self-realization, not simply give a bhakti-çästré degree. Although the subject matter is primarily spiritual, the definition of knowledge extends to the phenomenal as well. The next component is disposition, the mentality in which one is giving or receiving education. The teacher and student must be in the right mood. The third criterion is the delivery of knowledge. It points to the atmosphere in which the knowledge is given. It should be sättvika, away from congested places. The student must live with the teacher and serve him. There must be exchanges based on love. These things have to be in place for the teacher to develop the character of the student. Fourth is the design of the education, the curriculum. The knowledge given should have its roots in the çästras. One of the important activities of brähmaëas is to expertly extract material and spiritual teachings from çästras. Any material not from our scriptures is not desirable. If we take all types of karmé or nondevotional books, it is almost as good as having a karmé teacher. So it goes without saying that our teachers should be devotees. And the last criterion is the direction or purpose of the knowledge. Nothing should be done for mundane objectives. Even if somebody learns something material, it is not for a material gain. Of course we can learn some practical science or some skills for Kåñëa’s service, but for this we do not need much formal education, especially for skills. We can say that one practically does not need to go to school for that kind of education.



Bhagératha Däsa: Some people may argue that if students do not pay for their education, it will be difficult to continue these activities and meet the basic expenses like electricity, etc.

be done, or lament about the difficulty of its implementation, but the fact will remain that unless we take it up, we will continue to have all these problems.

Bhakti Räghava Swami: Yes, it is true that there are inherent expenses that should be covered—but not by the students. This question comes up because we have an artificial system. We are not following the system of varëäçrama, wherein, first of all, only qualified students get that kind of education. Within varëäçrama it is clearly understood that individuals are not all of the same ability. Traditional gurukulas are supported by donations or, as in our case, by our society somehow. Education is meant to be supported by governments and leaders. Of course, today’s governments will not support our kind of traditional education. Even in the case of modern education, in most countries the budget is much less than what they put into military force, commerce, research on technology, etc. Since countries have bad leaders, adequate provisions are not made. ISKCON should understand this crucial need and provide good facilities, but only for those who are qualified.

3. What are the weaknesses in the modern educational system?

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The problem is that we are not applying the system of varëäçrama, nor thus far have we clearly understood how to introduce it, although we are trying in a few rare places. If we introduce it, all these issues— how to give good education, how to maintain our families, how to protect the weak, how to develop tight communities, etc.—will be solved practically. Nowadays, if one does not have a job, he cannot function. He needs a place to stay, needs food, and needs to buy some things. But a devotee living within varëäçrama greatly reduces his material requirements. When we are self-sufficient, cultured, and satisfied with the basics, education enters a new dimension. As long as we continue to follow the artificial system, and not varëäçrama, we will have to face problems for which there are no artificial solutions. The answers will come only when we apply varëäçrama in connection to Kåñëa. This is the only complete solution. One may ask the recipe for happiness, but when he is told that it is obtained only by devotional service, he then gives all kinds of excuses. But that does not change the reality. The bottom line remains that devotional service is the sole way to happiness, and that it can to be practiced in any material circumstance. In the same way, within this material world, the only system that will properly meet both the material and spiritual needs of a community is varëäçrama. One may give so many excuses, find so many reasons why it cannot

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Bhakti Räghava Swami: Modern education focuses on speculative, gross material knowledge. They have removed the spiritual dimension from their definitions of knowledge. And education has become a big business. Many people, mostly those without qualification, are making big money out of it. Teachers are generally bereft of the nine qualities of brähmaëas, and thus they are neither materially nor spiritually fit to teach. Neither are the students qualified, because they are studying for wrong reasons. The majority of students in today’s colleges and universities are not fit to study formally in an institution, according to the natural varëäçrama system. But these days, if you do not have a university degree, nobody will give you a good job. Therefore people are studying the wrong things for the wrong purposes—to maintain or increase the so-called comforts of modern life. The sole aim of technology is to increase this so-called good life. Education is on the wrong track; its purpose is lost. Those who are in charge of modern education have hijacked it for economic goals under the pressure of governments, industrial lobbies, and their investors. The main fault of the modern approach is that it is devoid of spirituality, and thus the ultimate target of a bona fide education is missed. The majority of colleges and universities are in congested cities. They provide so-called education in that passionate atmosphere. In addition, they allow co-education, where boys and girls sit together. Some time back I was reading that previously in India, as soon as young girls reached the age of puberty, their parents would take them out of school, to avoid promiscuity or unwanted pregnancy. Even in the West, until recently, they also were careful about that. In Vedic tradition, going further back to the root, the education for girls was altogether different, because women assume different occupations or roles in society. That is a complete topic in itself—controversial as well. Most of our devotees do not understand this aspect clearly. We read in the çästras that women are basically not meant to take up any varëa or profession. They have their own varëa, so to speak. Because we have deviated so much for so long—and do not live according to varëäçrama at all—it is no longer so obvious, no longer understood. It is rejected by many because they are attached to the



modern paradigm and lifestyle, which is far from the Vedic standard. By the way, Vedic culture is not confined merely to spiritual practice; it also includes a practical lifestyle that facilitates sädhana. Living in an atmosphere conducive to spiritual life is the Vedic norm. In Vedic times, there were cities, of course, but those were not like the cities we have nowadays. Those cities were meant for a small percentage of the population and were more conducive to spiritual life. The majority did not live in cities, but in villages. Everyone followed the varëäçrama system. The biggest shortcoming is the absence of qualified teachers and qualified students. Basically, there are no brähmaëas and no clear understanding of education and its purpose. Bhagératha Däsa: You mentioned that girls are not meant to take up education, nor any varëa, as boys do. But what about our Vaiñëava mätäjés? Some of them are doing very well in writing, etc. Would that mean that if they do not receive an education, they would not be able to develop or improve their skills? Bhakti Räghava Swami: Well, Çréla Prabhupäda was not against having young Vaiñëavés learn to read and write, to the contrary. He did send young girls to gurukula, in some cases. To a large extent that was because of the way we are living now. So again, it comes back to the same thing: as long as we do not have a proper social system in place, we will have to adjust constantly, and create artificial situations for both boys and girls. That, in essence, is the problem. We keep adjusting this or that, but it is not the true solution. We must understand that the only valid system is that which has been given by Lord Kåñëa—called varëäçrama, wherein life is much simpler and the goal of life is not mere economic development, but spiritual advancement for everyone. We are so remote from that ancient system that we think it is impossible to reintroduce it. But it is possible, if devotees are dedicated, and if they realize that by failing to do so we will perpetuate our problems in ISKCON. It is not that women would not get any education. They would be well educated at home, by the elder women, and later on by their husbands. For example, the wives of brähmaëas would know so many things because they associate with their husband, and usually they would have come from that kind of background. A brähmaëa should marry a girl from a brähmaëa family. It is not that someone born in a brähmaëa family is by default a brähmaëa, but it naturally follows that they will learn so many related things. As long as we continue with the artificial system, which is a deviation, we will continue to

suffer its complexities. We may feel that we need to maintain the same kind of education for both men and women, but that is not the original system. If we give due consideration to the proper system, as given in the çästras, we will easily understand the respective education meant for men and women, and that will enable us to gradually apply it. There are two categories of systems: Vedic (and natural) on one hand, and artificial on the other. We are living artificially both in modern society and also in ISKCON. As long as we remain there, we will continue to bang our heads against the wall. We should try to understand how to make amends and return to the natural system of varëäçrama. As long as we continue working in bogus ways, we will never find answers. Best is to concentrate on the natural way, and thereby the answers to all such questions will automatically be revealed by Kåñëa’s grace. It is not that because we are devotees and belong to ISKCON, we have no need for varëäçrama. Varëäçrama is not simply for nondevotees; it is for everyone, especially the devotees. Many devotees claim that they understand the system but are above it, since Vaiñëavas are above brähmaëas. In a narrow sense, that is true. However, even though we are Vaiñëavas, we still need a social system! So we take Kåñëa’s social system, with its natural divisions— brähmaëa, kñatriya, vaiçya, and çüdra. When varëäçrama is in place, all of these different doubts, about the role of this one or that one, will be clarified. If we analyze the devotee population, we see that the majority are not preachers, are not well versed in çästras, and are not brähmaëas by occupation. The majority of our devotees are simply not brähmaëas in that sense. They are meant to maintain themselves by alternative varëas. Some are meant to administer, some to cultivate land, and the majority should support the three other positions. Because we do not have those categories in place, to offer proper alternatives, devotees are trying to adjust within the demoniac system.

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4. What weaknesses plague ISKCON, would you say, in relation to its knowledge and implementation of the Vedic concepts of education? Bhakti Räghava Swami: The main weakness is that our devotees lack proper understanding of even the basic concepts of varëäçrama. They are not making sufficient endeavor to study it; they are too involved in maintaining bodily comforts. The majority of our devotees are caught up in the cities, and generally our leaders are not, for whatever reasons, giving attention to the aspect of varëäçrama. Some



devotees are of the opinion that it is not so relevant or important. We have a general lack of qualified brähmaëas. And varëäçrama can be implemented only under the guidance of qualified brähmaëas. It is ironic, because Çréla Prabhupäda established our society to train brähmaëas, with the understanding that once we have some brähmaëas, the rest—i.e., the kñatriyas, vaiçya, and çüdras—will manifest by their teachings.

promotes brahminical culture; brähmaëas who are thus maintained lead us in the right direction. The cows and the land are two of the seven natural mothers, but nowadays people do not understand their value. Because we have deviated from that natural lifestyle, we have created huge ecological problems around the globe. So there is a need for our leaders—and also our rank-and-file devotees—to use their abilities and dive deeper into varëäçrama. Some attempts are being made, not that nothing is happening, and a few good things are coming up. A few of our leaders are working to set up varëäçrama communities. But the figure is small, and we need more of them. Because of the way we have been brought up, devotees are conditioned by a variety of modern lifestyles. Consequently, we should increase our efforts to understand varëäçrama, and present seminars to the devotees. We need more of our leaders to join us and help establish such communities, just like Çréla Prabhupäda, who wanted to personally demonstrate varëäçrama by becoming localized— something I myself would love to do, become localized. We need some of our leaders to take this road. In his later days, Çréla Prabhupäda himself wanted to do it, and by his example, to guide different communities. He understood that they needed direction. He wanted to demonstrate this culture to the devotees. We now need some of our leaders to set examples.

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Another weakness is what we could call “çüdra phobia”— devotees are afraid to be identified as çüdras. But a çüdra is not unqualified —not at all. He is an Äryan. To be part of the varëäçrama system in any capacity requires good qualifications. There is such a thing we call “qualified çüdra.” When we read the description given by Närada Muni, in the Seventh Canto of Çrémad-Bhägavatam, he mentions the qualities of all the varëas, including the çüdras. They should be obedient, attentive to their work, honest, and so on. That is all within the varëäçrama system, but unfortunately the word çüdra became pejorative. Then there is the fact that in the past we had problems within our gurukulas. So we have become afraid and reluctant to again promote gurukulas. We became like someone who, because he burned his hand on a flame as a child, remains for the rest of his life afraid of cooking. That is not desirable. We should not have that kind of mentality. We should learn from our mistakes, understand where we deviated from the standard, be careful not to repeat these errors, and properly move forward. We should understand that without establishing gurukulas, we will not get qualified humans—neither brähmaëas, kñatriyas, nor brahmacärés. Without them, we can forget about varëäçrama! How many gurukulas do we have in ISKCON? We can probably count them on one hand. A real gurukula follows the traditional system, teaches the subjects from çästras, and has a boarding system, not a day school. A day school is not standard. It may be temporarily allowed, but the recommended standard is gurukula. And again—and this is an important point—until we have an agrarian society in place, all of these Vedic subtleties will not have much meaning for us. We cannot sustain success unless we become agrarian based, unless we understand the importance of cows in society, unless we grow our own food. That is an intrinsic, fundamental part of Vedic culture. Then, supporting brähmaëas and gurukulas becomes much easier. And we can see how everything is connected: the land is intimately connected to the cows; food is connected to the land; freedom gained from food prosperity

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5. What are the remedies for rectifying our shortcomings in education? Bhakti Raghava Swami: We have already touched on that somewhat. We need to deepen our knowledge of varëäçrama and see how it is intrinsically connected with education. We need to facilitate and support our devotees in the field of varëäçrama education. We must take major steps in that direction. There are devotees willing to get involved, but not much support is given to them. Çréla Prabhupäda established ISKCON primarily to create a class of qualified brähmaëas. Such brähmaëas will understand and gradually introduce traditional Vedic education, starting with its basic principles. Five basic concepts must be in place: (1) the proper definition of education, (2) the proper disposition of teachers and students, (3) the proper delivery of such an education (which should avoid modern patterns, like urban location, the mixing of genders, or anything that increases the influence of the lower modes), (4) the design of curricula exclusively from Vedic sources, and (5) the direction of the educational pursuits, toward spiritual realization. To rectify education, we need dedicated brähmaëas who will live by and teach according to these principles.



In order for this revolution to take place, Çréla Prabhupäda stressed the need to establish gurukulas as well as varëäçrama colleges. The correcting of discrepancies found in modern education calls for major reforms. Change will be possible only when we have qualified leaders—kñatriyas—who can appreciate, support, and implement the brahminical standards of Vedic education. These two classes of leaders, the brähmaëas and the kñatriyas, are missing in the secular world, and to a large extent are rare even within ISKCON. For introducing this type of education, practical models of rural varëäçrama communities are required. A simpler lifestyle, connected with land, cows, and traditional technologies, greatly fosters the application of Vedic principles. At this point in time, the effect that we can have on general education is very limited. We can first introduce such changes within ISKCON, by creating model communities congenial with the implementation of traditional education. Such an approach will gradually bring about reform. We first begin in our own house, then we introduce this culture to others. We first create a few models, and later expand to society at large. Changes in the educational practices themselves must also come via education. This is done through proper theory and strong implementation. Most devotees will never understand varëäçramarelated topics simply through theory. But if we implement it even on a small scale, realizations will come easily.

The Bhaktivedanta College in Belgium, and the Rüpänuga College, headed by Dänävéra Mahäräja, 1 are good examples of this. Although that is very much needed, Çréla Prabhupäda’s idea was to make varëäçrama colleges. We should have some institutions where we teach devotees not only how to become püjärés and preachers, but also how to become good teachers of culture, good administrators, good farmers, good artists, according to their propensities. We need to introduce seminars and courses. His grace Anuttamä Däsa is giving seminars, at different venues, on leadership. This is a good start—we need to train people in that way—but ultimately we need to go far beyond that point. From the brähmaëas and kñatriyas, no doubt the rest will come, but we also need farmers for basic prosperity. Therefore, some brähmaëas should learn farming so as to teach it, at least until the whole vaiçya culture is in place. The brähmaëas should also be acquainted with the principles of çüdra work—not that they will perform such work, but to teach çüdras how to perform their duties in the proper devotional spirit. Some may argue that çüdras learn their arts from other çüdras. Yes, ideally that is how it would be done, but the çüdras were also directed by brähmaëas. From the brähmaëas, they would especially learn how their arts connect to the Lord. Brähmaëas are the teachers for all varëas. It is not that a çüdra will become a teacher in the gurukula. No. Rather, he becomes a teacher in his own field, by his own example. And just as a brähmaëa can understand the field of a çüdra, he likewise can support the work of a vaiçya. So everything is going on under the good guidance of qualified brähmaëas. Land, cows, gurukulas, and brähmaëas are the pillars of varëäçrama. Where in our society can we see land, cows, trained brähmaëas, and a gurukula all combined? We are so weak in that respect! Furthermore, our duty is not to only protect the cows within our own goçalas, but to protect all of Kåñëa’s cows in general. “Kåñëa’s cows” means every cow on the planet. We should feel responsible for each and every cow, even those that do not directly belong to us, since they all belong to Kåñëa. We should be concerned about whatever is dear to Kåñëa. These are the very basic things, the fundamentals—land, cows, brähmaëas, and gurukula. We urgently need these. Without gurukulas and proper training, we will never have qualified brähmaëas.

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6. What are the pillars of a varëäçrama society? Bhakti Räghava Swami: Çréla Prabhupäda explained that the foundation of a varëäçrama society is land and cows. We should understand the need for growing food and protecting cows. Land and food are fundamental in this world. Without food we cannot live, and without cows we practically cannot live as devotees, for the brähmaëas would not be able to perform their offerings. Without cows we also cannot have temples, because to install and worship deities of the Lord we need cow products—ghee, milk, etc. So varëäçrama stands on cow protection and cultivation of land. That will provide a proper atmosphere and facilities for the brähmaëas to work as they are supposed to. The brähmaëas are able to give direction to the whole society. To establish varëäçrama in our present situation, we should first protect cows and brähmaëas. The qualified brähmaëas are the brain, and they come from gurukulas. We do have a few schools and educational institutions in our society that focus on training brähmaëas—mostly in relation to bhakti.

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1. Both are educational institutions run by ISKCON. The Bhaktivedanta College gives government-accredited diplomas in theology and the Rüpänuga College is a seminary for brahmacärés in Texas, USA.



7. Can varëäçrama communities be established in our present, modern society?

is because we are constantly exposing ourselves to mäyä! To a large extent, we are in this condition because we do not live a simple life. We live in cities full of greed and lust, and we passively accept that degraded situation. Devotees then find it hard to maintain even basic standards of devotional service. Even during Prabhupäda’s time, not all devotees strictly followed the principles of Kåñëa consciousness. Unfortunately, we find still that many second-initiated devotees are not following the four regulative principles. What should we expect? If we do not follow strictly, we will not get the desired result, nor understand varëäçrama. We will not make proper decisions within our society. We will not have proper relationships, and that will remain a big problem. That is all due to our lack of Kåñëa consciousness. Unless we hear, and put into practice what we have heard, we will fall short. We must realize the importance of regularly hearing Çrémad-Bhägavatam, of sädhu-sanga, of chanting, and of every other aspect of devotional service. This was discussed in yesterday’s Bhägavatam class:

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Bhakti Räghava Swami: Yes, because varëäçrama is the natural system. Kåñëa’s system applies at all times. This does not mean that all the cities have to be evacuated, but the majority of people are meant to live in the country, because they are meant to be connected with land and cows. It is possible, although some people may say that the situation is irreversible. Devotees know that if we do not take the necessary steps to change the situation, Kåñëa will take care of it in another way—by force, by His various potencies. Nowadays we see many calamities caused by nature—bad reactions. Nature is not behaving normally because we are not following dharma. Recently I was reading that every time a cow is killed there are heavy reactions in the atmosphere. Whenever sinful activities are committed, the whole atmosphere becomes polluted. Because we have deviated so much, we hear dogs howling all the time! Basically we have deviated from two things: the path of bhagavat-dharma and the path of varëäçrama-dharma. We do not understand devotional service, nor human sociology—and both are related. Because we have deviated from these two dharmas, we have created hellish conditions. People’s minds are so polluted! Therefore, we see so many catastrophes happening. The only solution is to reintroduce these two dharmas. In Kali-yuga, varëäçrama-dharma can be reintroduced only on the strength of bhagavat-dharma, by Lord Caitanya’s mercy. Çréla Prabhupäda said that we should start first by establishing model communities in ISKCON, and that the rest of the world would eventually come to understand its value by our example. So yes, it is possible—by faith in Kåñëa, and by knowledge, enthusiasm, patience, and determination. 8. Why are the principles of varëäçrama-dharma not so easily understood? Bhakti Räghava Swami: Well, because it is Kali-yuga, mandäù sumanda-matayo manda-bhägyä hy upadrutäù (SB 1.1.10), our ability to understand scriptures is very poor. Çréla Prabhupäda mentions that if at least a small percentage of the society—even as little as one percent—takes up Kåñëa consciousness, things will be fine. He said that one percent is enough to show the example to society. But to find that one percent is so difficult. We do not understand mainly because we are not strong in Kåñëa consciousness, and that

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sädhu-saìga näma-kértana bhägavata-çravaëa mathurä-väsa çré-mürtira çraddhäya sevana “One should associate with devotees, chant the holy name of the Lord, hear Çrémad-Bhägavatam, reside at Mathurä and worship the Deity with faith and veneration. (Cc. Madhya 22.128) If we are regulated in those devotional activities, there will be no real difficulty. Çréla Prabhupäda wanted our society to be very dedicated and serve as a good example for others—äcära, upacära, and sadäcära. Without sadäcära, or good behavior—following the principles—one will not be situated in the mode of goodness, what to speak of pure goodness. Regulative principles are fundamental to varëäçrama. In his Essay on Gétä-nägaré, Çréla Prabhupäda explains that his mission is fourfold, varëäçrama being one of the four branches. 2 Most devotees are ignorant of this strategic division into four areas— which does not help. Çréla Prabhupäda’s fourfold strategy was the Saìkértana movement, the Deity worship movement, the Spiritual initiation movement, and the Varëäçrama movement. Most devotees have never even heard of this. Not being clear about something so fundamental is like being intoxicated. When we are not fixed in consciousness, we deviate and thus miss the point about varëäçrama. Varëäçrama is meant to facilitate devotional service; it gives an 2. This strategy of Çréla Prabhupäda is discussed in details by Bhakti Räghava Swami in his book Make Våndävana Villages. See other publications of the VBT on page 177.

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accurate lifestyle and teaches human interaction. It has a very positive effect on devotional service, especially for neophytes. Bhagératha Däsa: Çréla Prabhupäda said, “We don’t want cities,” 3 but in ancient times there were cities. Can you please clarify this point? What did Prabhupäda mean? Bhakti Räghava Swami: Yes, there were cities in the past, and Prabhupäda spoke of them. But those cities were few in number, less populated, and meant primarily for the kñatriya’s administration. In the city, the kñatriya displays opulence—has palaces, lives with his entourage, etc. He maintains an army, a court, and other infrastructures of governance. The kñatriya needs servants (çüdras) and advisors (brähmaëas); the vaiçyas will naturally come for business. But producing food, and prosperity, was done outside of the city. So cities are mainly for kñatriyas, to show their opulence and to offer protection. But modern cities are not at all like the Vedic cities. When we read descriptions of Vedic cities, like Hastinäpur, Dvärakä, or Indraprastha, we understand that they were Kåñëa conscious cities. Still, we should understand that the majority of people are not meant to live in cities, but in the country, and to engage or assist in agriculture. We should avoid life in the demoniac cities of today, where you cannot even breathe properly. There are so many kinds of pollutions—air pollution, noise pollution, mind pollution, etc. And we do not need all these cities. In the Kingdom of Cambodia, how many cities can we count? Basically, there are only three cities—of course, things are changing. In many places in Asia, the majority still lives in the country. They have their own land, just as we see here in Cambodia. I spoke with local students and came to know that most of them still have land and cows back home. All of them have six or seven brothers and sisters, because when one has land and cows it is a great asset to have many children. If you have land, you do not need to worry about having food for the children. But villagers are now attracted by the propaganda for city life—earn some money, get a motorbike, buy a cell phone, become modern, etc. Many farmers who have sold their land and cows are now suffering. It is very sad to see. What is the result? The two boys we saw begging yesterday, walking around with folded hands and asking people to give them something. 3. Prabhupäda: There will be no city. We don’t want cities. Bhagavän: What about our city temples? Prabhupäda: No, no. For the time it may go on. But as we make progress, there will be no necessity. (Morning Walk—Rome, May 1974)


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9. Why did Çréla Prabhupäda instruct, “First varëa, then äçrama”? Bhakti Räghava Swami: Because one’s varëa will determine one’s äçrama. If one is a brähmaëa by nature, then all four äçramas are open for him. A brähmaëa is meant to be trained as a brahmacäré, but the brahmacäré-äçrama is technically not for the çüdra-varëa. So the varëa determines the possibilities in äçrama. That is Vedic culture. The natural disposition, one’s natural ability, must be ascertained. In the Vedic system, if one is brahminical and intellectual he will be encouraged to attend school. If one does not have those qualities, he will be directed to learn some skill. Everything being within the scope of Kåñëa consciousness, there will ultimately be no difference between the two varëas, even though one’s activities are tailored to his nature. So brähmaëas must first guide students toward their varëa. Unless one knows the varëa, he cannot ascertain the appropriate äçrama. Bhagératha Däsa: But why did Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura first introduce açrama? Bhakti Räghava Swami: Well, one has to analyze the history. Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté was following in the footsteps of his father, Çréla Bhaktivinoda Thäkura, who wanted to restore standard Vaiñëavism, because the philosophy of Çrémad-Bhägavatam was no longer understood correctly. There were so many people, including Vaiñëavas, who had deviated at that time—many sahajiyäs and apasampradäyas. There was an ongoing debate between the brähmaëas and Vaiñëavas. Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté had to give an extended philosophical presentation to prove the superior position of the devotee over the brähmaëa. This led him to reintroduce tridaëòi-sannyäsa and brahminical culture, Gäyatré, etc., within Vaiñëavism, because most people did not respect Vaiñëavas and could not understand that devotees are essentially already brähmaëas. If they saw that someone wore the brähmaëa thread, they would understood his position; if they saw a sädhu with a daëòa, they would consider him very important. But actually, that is secondary. In this way, Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté reintroduced the practice of äçrama, in the context of introducing the Vaiñëava way of life, which parallels brahminical culture. This is one aspect. The other is that we are looking back some eighty years. At that time in India, society was not so degraded; people were mostly situated in their varëa. They were already practicing their varëas, but not spiritual development, which entails the äçramas. Different



äcäryas introduce the culture depending upon the need of their contemporary society. That Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta introduced this äçrama practice does not mean that he gave less importance to or neglected the varëas. In other words, during those days the varëas were more easily understood than today. The farther we drift from varëäçrama, the more crucial it becomes to elucidate the varëas. We should note that Çréla Prabhupäda also first introduced the brahmacäré, sannyäsa, and gåhastha-açramas, because he began with the brähmaëa-varëa. So it is not that he started with the äçramas, but with the most important varëa, which happens to entail all four äçramas. In a general way, he spoke about the four varëas extensively, and in regard to different projects like New Våndävana or Gétänagaré, he also introduced farming and other basic activities. Even today, to a large extent ISKCON continues to train people primarily as brähmaëas, but we should not limit our society to the category of brähmaëa; we must go beyond. A society is not comprised only of brähmaëas; indeed, true brähmaëas are actually very rare. All the limbs of the body are needed—head, arms, stomach, and legs—but the brähmaëas are the key for attracting and training the rest of the varëäçrama society.

without speaking about education, and vice versa. If we plan for varëäçrama, and understand that education is present within this varëäçrama, we do not need anything else.

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10. What is the relationship between varëäçrama and education? Bhakti Räghava Swami: They are intimately connected. We need to see varëäçrama—the system of varëas and äçramas—as itself an educational institution. This is the most complete institution, because it includes formal, informal, and non-formal education. The formal education within varëäçrama is gurukula, for those who are intellectually inclined. Because they are intellectuals, they study and teach what is important in varëäçrama. Advanced education is found in the gurukula because it has both trained teachers and qualified students. Later on, many students become teachers. And a teacher always remains a student, reaching for deeper knowledge. According to one’s abilities, he studies and teaches various material and spiritual topics. We should not misunderstand that gurukulas are restricted to teaching only parä vidya. Some students will be inclined toward one aspect; others will need to learn something else. For instance, kñatriyas will concentrate on learning Dhanurveda. According to the available brähmaëas, different gurukulas will offer different subject matter. But all topics that are taught formally, whether material or spiritual, are taught by brähmaëas. Varëäçrama and education are closely related; we cannot speak of varëäçrama

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Bhagératha Däsa: What do you mean by “varëäçrama is itself an educational institution?” Please kindly elaborate. Bhakti Räghava Swami: Complete and perfect education leads to self-realization. That is the ultimate purpose. Varëäçrama nurtures self-realization, taking into consideration a person’s material conditioning. We are conditioned by our present material body. According to our guëä, we are either a brähmaëa, kñatriya, vaiçya, or çüdra. This is determined by our previous karma. We are born under a certain combination of the modes of nature—although even that can be purified. It is not that we are promoting that according to one’s birth he is a rubber-stamped brähmaëa or çüdra for his entire lifetime. Still, the modes of nature strongly influence the conditioned soul from the moment of conception. Right from a child’s birth, one can observe the modes of nature acting upon him. Varëäçrama takes into account the modes of an individual and, through the äçramas, elevates him above the modes to Kåñëa consciousness. This is perfect education. Varëa should be seen as aptitude-based learning; this is a very important concept. Aptitude-based learning leads to aptitude-based occupation. If I have an intellectual talent, I can study in a gurukula, and in time I will become a paëòita. My aptitude-based learning at the gurukula will give me the aptitude-based occupation of a brähmaëa. That is the consideration of varëa. If I cannot study çästra but can work manually, I will be directed by seniors to the appropriate situation. I will learn a skill, and my aptitude-based learning will lead me to be, for example, a good carpenter, my aptitude-based occupation. That is non-formal education, or vocational training. In the case of a brähmaëa, education is formal, because it takes longer to complete intellectual studies based on çästra. Still, in both cases education takes place. Formal education is for the special few who have the aptitude to become dvijas. But whether one is a brähmaëa, kñatriya, vaiçya, or çüdra, each will have a suitable education. The education is formal relative to the degree of one’s intellectual capacity. The less one is talented for çästra, the less formal his education will be. The principle is always that aptitude-based learning leads to an aptitudebased occupation. On the other hand, the äçramas address one’s lifelong education. From childhood until death—all throughout life—we



should advance spiritually. Açrama addresses spiritual education in a natural sequence of four phases. It facilitates spiritual elevation. First, the brahmacäré strives to control his senses, to serve, and to perform austerities. He acquires the fundamental qualities of human existence—cleanliness, austerity, honesty, and discipline. This will help them throughout life. In youth, the ability to study and memorize is greater, so it is the perfect time to study, learn culture, and associate with other sädhus. A brahmacäré can either remain so or chose to marry. Gåhastha is also an äçrama. A gåhastha is not someone who cannot control his senses, but one whose realizations are not yet mature and who needs more facilities than the lifelong brahmacäré, who has no strong emotional need. Those needing some material comforts move on to householder life, but their spiritual elevation continues. Çréla Prabhupäda explains that this temporary concession allows regulated sense gratification, whereas a lifelong brahmacäré does not need that. If a young man has that need, he enters the gåhastha-äçrama. That is not a problem, but rather, a fit solution in the long run. With its rules and regulations, the gåhasthaäçrama will gradually free him, but therein it takes relatively longer to become self-controlled. When one enters the vänaprasthaäçrama, it is a bit like again becoming a brahmacäré, but this time with firm realizations. Then, for completing one’s purification, there is the sannyäsa-äçrama. If someone can immediately take to pure devotional service, he does not need to follow the äçramas, but rare are those who are truly so capable. For the great majority, that stage is simply phantasmagoria; we do not have the disposition of pure devotees capable of constantly chanting Hare Kåñëa. Sometimes devotees naively ask if we really need all these formalities, since we are devotees and only need to chant Hare Kåñëa. But to be a Vaiñëava, as Çréla Prabhupäda points out, is not a cheap thing, not as easy as we would like it to be. Therefore, we need these cultural supports. Both the varëas and the äçramas educate us for ultimately attaining that stage. Real education teaches us how to utilize material energy in the Lord’s service—because we are embodied—and thereby progress spiritually. This is to be done according to the degree of our sense control. That sensitivity makes varëäçrama a complete system of education, accessible to all. So when we separate varëäçrama from education, or vice versa, immediately something goes amiss. Within Vedic standards, we cannot have one without the other. Modern educators do not know about varëäçrama. The spiritual dimension of education is completely absent, and even their material approaches

are off target. They do not teach how to live, how to relate, how to see every woman as mother, etc. All of that is missing. Therefore everything is chaotic and upside down, and as a result we get so many abnormal people!

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11. Please elaborate the concepts of sambandha-jïäna, abhideya, and prayojana in relation to varëäçrama and education, respectively. Bhakti Räghava Swami: Sambandha has to do with identities and their relationships. This concept of relationship is twofold. The first perspective defines the spirit soul, the spiritual dimension of life beyond matter, and our spiritual identity as an eternal servant of Kåñëa. The other gives an understanding of our material conditioning, i.e., to understand what we have picked up—or carried along—when we came into this body, what we have accumulated from our previous lives, which caused us to be here today. We need to understand our identity both materially and spiritually. The revelation of our varëa, according to our natural inclinations, and the subsequent identification of the most suitable äçrama for us, constitutes sambandha-jïäna in relation to varëäçrama. First we ascertain the varëa, then the äçrama. Sambandha-jïäna is to know our spiritual and material position within the varëäçrama system. That in itself determines the type of education we should receive, because education is intimately connected to varëäçrama. Then comes abhideya, or activity. Once we comprehend our situation, the next logical step is appropriate action. Because we are conditioned, we do not know how to act in this world. According to our guëäs, the occupation of either a brähmaëa, kñatriya, vaiçya, or çüdra will be recommended, along with the corresponding education. In the same manner, we will advance spiritually within the äçramas by performing the prescribed activities for each stage. Last is prayojana, or the goal. The quality of the application (abhideya) of what we have learned (sambandha) determines where we end up (prayojana). In the context of varëäçrama, the goal is to become either a perfect brähmaëa, perfect kñatriya, perfect vaiçya, or perfect çüdra, and perfect brahmacäré, gåhastha, vänaprastha, or sannyäsa. Within the äçramas, we should gradually become an ideal human being; that is the material perspective. From the spiritual point of view of daiva-varëäçrama—since we are practicing Vaiñëavism—we should end up perfect devotees. Daiva-varëäçrama is a system that centers on devotional service to Kåñëa. When we add bhakti, the system of varëa and äçrama becomes perfect; it becomes



sädhana. Our äcäryas teach that we cannot jump to bhäva-bhakti or prema-bhakti; we cannot come to these elevated stages unless we follow sädhana-bhakti. We become perfect through sädhana— sädhana-siddha. The majority of people should progress through varëäçrama, to be properly situated materially and spiritually. These are the principles of sambandha, abhideya, and prayojana in relation to that varëäçrama-dharma which supports bhagavat-dharma. The varëäçrama system is meant to support our endeavors and advancement in bhagavat dharma.

is a master sthäpati from Bali, was telling me that they now have a formal institution for teaching sculpture, but that the quality is bad because men join simply to get a job. First, there is no real interest, and second, the training is insufficient—given only a few hours at a time, now and then. Previously there was no time restriction. The methods are artificial and the motive is wrong. Vedic authorities do understand that everyone needs to be engaged, but not artificially. When varëäçrama is in place, the majority of people naturally pick up different trades, and very often it will be one that is already being performed within the family or village. Broad education is traditionally non-formal, while those who are capable go to gurukula. But regrettably, there is much protest against this beautiful natural system. In the modern system of compulsory education, the teacher has no say whatsoever about who becomes his student. He is forced to accept the student, and the student is forced to accept him. This is not conducive to a good relationship. Many students despise the institutional situation and come to the conclusion that on-the-job training is more efficient. They would prefer apprenticeship, similar to the fellow who goes to the village carpenter to assist him and learn his craft. Apprenticeship goes even smoother when one learns from his own father. Nowadays they squeeze everyone together in some boring school room. It is so dry! Today, education has to compete with the distractions of television, cinema, video games, pop music, sports, promiscuity, etc. Earlier it was all-around easier. There was proper guidance in society, good examples that kids could easily follow. It was more natural. We need to recreate this simple and clean environment. The modernists have introduced the term “schooling”—used like an industrial term of mass production. Like in a factory, you place somebody in a system called “school” to get some predefined end product, a useful tool. In this way, they are training people to be like robots without the faculty to discriminate. Moreover, it is illegal to speak about God or teach religious subject matters. So many people in America are dissatisfied with the public system of education, and therefore, an increasingly popular alternative is home schooling. The parents keep their children at home, teach them in some manner, and later on have them take a standardized equivalency test for earning credential. That alternative is actually allowed in many countries. A growing number of parents are finding this option better than a forced public education. Or sometimes a

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12. The concept of compulsory education, whereby children are compelled to attend school until a certain age or a certain level, is being extensively promoted in modern education. Would you comment on its merits and demerits? Bhakti Räghava Swami: Compulsory means that by some inconsiderate uniform law, everyone must attend school for a given minimum number of years. That is not so desirable. What are the advantages and disadvantages? I say that there are more demerits than merits. Modern education has no proper criteria, nor is it administered by qualified people. Their aim is wrong. It is quite natural that children should be engaged, but in the Vedic culture no one is forced into education. Education cannot by forced. It should be offered naturally, pertinently, and in a good environment. Varëäçrama is far more efficient. Students are inspired by a pedagogy befitting their inclinations. Compulsory education is “one size fits all.” The majority of youngsters will attend courses for which they have neither interest nor qualification. Governments subscribe to theories that prioritize high levels of what they call literacy. Each year, they conduct surveys to compare the demographics of “higher education” between countries. The modern belief is that the number of graduates shows how educated a country is. Therefore, governments want the maximum amount of people to be processed through their bogus system of education. But that is not the nature of education. Most of modern education is çüdra education, and a çüdra does not need formal training because he can easily learn by practice. Just by seeing and imitating he will learn a trade. In Bali, we see that those who are sculptors have simply started carving from a young age. The children learn by first bringing the tools to their fathers, and so on. They simply begin, and gradually they pick it up, and are soon carving. Kiçora Kåñëa Däsa, a disciple of mine who

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group of parents organize home schooling within their community, since not every parent is able or inclined to teach. In general, compulsory education as it is now set up has many faults; it is not a natural way to impart education. In the Vedic system, the student must show some basic interest to become educated. If not, how will he learn properly? If there is no desire, no inclination, no propensity, no one will learn. The reality is that only a few are meant for formal education. The majority do not need it, do not need to attend school. Governments are educating in an artificial way. In our äçrama in Indonesia, some boys must rise early in the morning to attend school till late in the afternoon. They have to do so many things related to their education and must become like machines. Can we call this education? As soon as the teacher goes out of the classroom, the students immediately explode, misbehave, and forget the whole lesson. Bhagératha Däsa: Some countries have laws forcing every child into school. How can we adjust? Plus, they may consider our own system illegal. Bhakti Räghava Swami: Ultimately we have to preach to change the system. We have to enlighten the world. We have to preach and make people understand—especially those in high positions— that the setup of modern education is wrong. We have to initiate discussion about reform and then explain the authentic education that fosters self-realization. True education is devotional service. It teaches prescribed methods for operating the material energy in Kåñëa’s service. The main problem with modern education is that the spiritual dimension has been completely thrown out. Their concern is to be in line with the predominant materialistic paradigm set by the industrial class to suit their interest. They bait the students with some prospects of material comfort, leading them to believe that to become enslaved in an industry is worthwhile. In countries whose laws go against our principles, we must be clever. We should not oppose their norms, but should devise ways to fulfill our duties and preserve our culture as well as possible. We have to find the loopholes. In some countries, the law allows different denominations, like the Christians, to run their own schools. Most governments provide some flexibility that lets you organize on your own. That requires intelligence and vision on our part, to adjust. But in the context of education, we must uphold the basic principles of Kåñëa consciousness. Unfortunately, devotees have a poor understanding of Vedic education. It is not that in modern

times, the principles enshrined in the Vedic culture are no longer relevant. The basic principles remain eternally remain: there must be a friendly relationship between student and teacher; one should study in a sättvika atmosphere; the curricula must come from the çästras. All the elements that we have discussed—characteristics, principles, mood, etc—must be present. Modern education is simply a business, like a factory. Many people are making money out of this education business, so they pressure the youth. Similarly in India, farmers are pressured by the modern farming cartel to get a loan to buy a tractor and chemical fertilizers. Often, something happens so that they cannot repay the loan. When the time for their daughter’s marriage comes, they are over their head in debts. Their lifestyle is gone; they see no way out; they cannot face the shame. So they are committing suicide by the thousands. It has become a big problem in India. In Japan, which has always had suicides, there is an emerging phenomenon called “group suicides.” People are teaming together to commit suicide. Japan is a champion of modernity and capitalism, but what is the result? All this greed crushes everyone. Consequently, student life also— everywhere—is extremely stressful. I keep in contact with university students whom I have met in India. They feel constant pressure and stress because of their studies. As soon as one gets caught up in an unnatural situation, he will feel pressure and stress. And as long as we remain bereft of devotion to Kåñëa, we must suffer. It is the very same with education: when we miss the point and practice unnatural education—not attentive to varëäçrama principles—we get unfavorable results and cause suffering.

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13. Please briefly outline the differences between what is called “traditional education” and what is called “modern education,” and also define “formal,” “informal,” and “non-formal” education. Bhakti Räghava Swami: Both in modern and traditional education we find forms of formal and non-formal education. Formal education is generally a long-term kind of education. Originally, a student was expected to train his intelligence and study subtle subject matters— religion, philosophy, literature, astrology, etc. This required many years, sustained attention, and the ability to understand. If we observe the very nature of formal education, we understand that the number of men who can really take it up is rather small. But in modern days, formal education extends from kindergarten to university; every subject, for every student, is predominantly formal.



On the other hand, the gurukula, the traditional formal system of education, was restricted to the eligible. The scope of the gurukula education ranged from basic to deeply advanced. To give you an idea: the study of a single Veda would traditionally take twelve years; and if a student wanted to become a trivedi, he would have to dedicate thirty-six years. That is formal education. “Non-formal” means education outside of a formal context, for getting an occupation. One learns a skill—carpentry, accounting, music—that fulfils a need in his community. Those opportunities are mostly simple occupations—arts and crafts. They do not require extensive intelligence. Although one learns by practice, it does not mean that no intelligence is involved. But it is less intensive. Informal education means to learn things here and there in daily life. That goes on constantly—by meeting people, by seeing, by hearing, by experiencing, by coming in contact with the world in general. Everyone learns something just by going places and seeing things. There is a gulf of difference between the traditional educational system of the Vedic culture and the modern pattern. In the traditional system, the majority learn by non-formal apprenticeship. In the artificial system, the majority is pushed into a formal setting, which is not natural for most students. That is a major difference between traditional and modern education. It means that it is not necessary to have these big, big schools and big, big buildings filled with clueless, unqualified teachers. Modern education always keeps a materialistic orientation—creating a qualified workforce, increasing technical knowledge, or imparting material skills. In traditional education the main goal is to advance spiritually, and mostly only brähmaëas and kñatriyas are selected to receive formal education. Nowadays, most formal education is geared for çüdras—computer science, technical training, and the whole range of çüdra fields. It is unnecessary, because in technical fields there is always some manual available; one would simply need to read, apply, and consult with seniors. To provide a system is brahminical, to apply it is mechanical. Modern education is mechanistic. The materialistic goals of modern formal education, given to the working class, contrast with those of traditional formal education, which imparts spiritual values to the leaders. It is completely different. Modern education is devoid of any spiritual values. A couple of years ago, I met a lady in Canada who was pursuing her master’s degree in social work. Interestingly, she conveyed to me that some

of the educators are now sensing the need to reintroduce spiritual values within education; it is something that people are seeking. But due to the plurality of religions, combined with the shallow understanding of their followers—which we see as causing problems among nations—a lot of propaganda for completely doing away with religion remains, thus stopping any attempts to reintroduce it. In Kåñëa consciousness, we do not promote a particular denomination; rather, we put emphasis on the principles of religion and its essence. The essence of all genuine religions is compatible; there is no need to alienate one religion from another. Another difference is that modern education thrives in big cities, whereas traditional education was usually conducted closer to a village, or in the forest. Modern education includes a large number of unqualified teachers and tries to educate people who are not meant to be educated in that way. Anyone who compares the qualifications of brähmaëas to those of modern educators immediately sees great distinction. Their system judges an educator almost exclusively by looking at his academic records. The traditional system esteems character, of both the teacher and the student, as the key qualification. It is important to understand that the importance of character applies twofold. Traditionally, a teacher would not accept a student if he did not show good character: tad viddhi praëipätena paripraçnena sevayä. (Bg 4.34) According to this verse—“Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master, inquire from him submissively, and render service unto him”—the proper mood and the student’s willingness to serve are essential. In a brähmaëa gurukula, during the initial years one performs menial service. The guru does not immediately give all kinds of confidential information. He will test the student to make sure that he is a worthy recipient. Knowledge is not meant to be given to each and everyone, without discrimination. This is yet another big fault of modern education, that anybody can receive any kind of knowledge simply by paying a tuition fee. It adulterates everything—you pay, you get. It cannot produce a noble person adorned with meaningful qualities.

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14. What would you say is the main pitfall of modern education? Bhakti Räghava Swami: The main pitfall is their exclusive blind dedication to the gross materialistic paradigm at the expense of any spiritual emancipation. Spirituality is the life and soul of erudition. These foolish rascals are cutting out the very heart of education.



The pitfall is that educators do not understand what education is. In the name of education, in the name of these so-called educational institutions, the administrators, proud of their big buildings and expensive structures, are producing çüdras—actually not even çüdras, because çüdras are Äryans, but these so-called educated people have no good character nor any clue about the goal of life. Modern education is a big farce; it is in total ignorance. Çréla Prabhupäda would say that modern schools are like slaughterhouses. The word in Sanskrit is ätma-hana, “killer of the soul.”

years ago, according to the annals kept by the British about food production, Indian villages were blessed with bountiful crops. These villages were truly clean and opulent, and all the citizens were happy. When we hear from the Kåñëa book about Våndävana, all of the villagers were wearing gold bangles and silk clothes. Nowadays who is wearing silk in the villages? The villagers are poor because they lack proper support and guidance. So in ISKCON it is urgent to understand Vedic education. We must respond to both our spiritual and material needs according to paramparä. We cannot leave out or minimize the spiritual aspect. If we do, we are no better than animals. Çréla Prabhupäda strongly said that the present society is an animal society.

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To not send students to that kind of environment, whether our own schools or those of general society, is a big challenge for us at this point, because we do not yet have an alternative in place. Devotees need to accept this challenge and create a proper alternative— real education—as Çréla Prabhupäda ordered. We need a type of education that provides for all our needs, and it will manifest only within a solid varëäçrama setting. The varëäçrama college will give varëäçrama education and enable people to balance the spiritual and the material in their life. Modern education is a big failure, even though superficially shiny on the outside, with its big universities and costly buildings. But what is the end product? What kind of society has been created by this kind of education? Our grave social issues originate precisely in this deviation. Today we face a global crisis: in every country, people live degraded lives. They suffer from violence, poverty, pollution, alienation, suicide, and much more. A rapidly increasing number of people are mentally ill. Physical health also is rapidly going down the drain, due to a twisted lifestyle aggravated by junk food, intoxicants, illicit sex, stress, etc. The whole world is “freaking out.” They run a documentary series on TV called Planet in peril. We see many catastrophes. The environment is out of balance, and there are many inauspicious signs. Here in Cambodia we hear dogs howling even in daytime. Some may argue that such negative things have always been there. That is true, but only in Kali-yuga. Scriptures such as ÇrémadBhägavatam, which is recorded history, inform us that if there is a qualified king—like Mahäräja Yudhiñöhira or Mahäräja Parékñit— such inauspicious symptoms are negligible or non-existent. During the time of Parékñit Mahäräja, the Age of Kali had just begun, so there were a few bad omens. But during the reign of Lord Rämacandra and other exalted räjarñis, we do not see any anomalies at all. In those days, people were happy and satisfied with their king; plenty of food was available. This is not a fairytale. Even just a few hundred

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15. What are the pillars of education? Bhakti Räghava Swami: As already mentioned, there are five aspects to education. The first aspect is called definition and, self-evidently, it signifies establishing the proper definition of education. The principles of sambandha, abhideya, and prayojana are essential for apprehending the whole realm of education. These principles have very clear connections with the various aspects of education. For example, the definition of education has to do with sambandhajïäna. The modern definition is different from the traditional one. The traditional definition is that education is the simultaneous cultivation of knowledge of the phenomenal and the spiritual (called “numinous” in the Bhagavad-gétä). ïänaà te ’haà sa-vijïänam idaà vakñyämy açeñataù yaj jïätvä neha bhüyo ’nyaj jïätavyam avaçiñyate “I shall now declare unto you in full this knowledge, both phenomenal and numinous. This being known, nothing further shall remain for you to know.” (Bg 7.2) So according to Kåñëa’s definition, knowledge must have the two components, phenomenal and numinous. It can be learned by formal, non-formal, or informal methods. That is the first principle. The second principle of education is the disposition, which refers to mentality or mood. What is a good disposition for a teacher or student? It implies certain qualifications, both material and spiritual, that the teacher must possess, and a certain attitude of the student, along with some basic aptitudes. The qualifications of a teacher are given in the Bhagavad-gétä:

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Traditional Education çamo damas tapaù çaucaà kñäntir ärjavam eva ca jïänaà vijïänam ästikyaà brahma-karma svabhäva-jam

“Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom, and religiousness—these are the natural qualities by which the brähmaëas work.” (Bg 18.42) These are the natural qualities of a teacher, or brähmaëa. A bona fide teacher must have these qualities. But if we look at modern teachers, who is qualified? Çréla Prabhupäda wrote in a purport that if a teacher is smoking, he is not a teacher but a cheater; he is not self-controlled. Purity is needed. If someone is not cleaning himself daily, both internally and externally, he cannot be pure, cannot have pure consciousness. Religiousness means belief in God; one must be God conscious, Kåñëa conscious. These are the qualities that create a favorable disposition in the teacher, the characteristics of a qualified brähmana. In the Vedic culture, teacher means brähmana; only a brähmana can teach formally. That is his specialty. The qualities of the student are also elucidated in the Bhagavad-gétä: tad viddhi praëipätena paripraçnena sevayä upadekñyanti te jïänaà jïäninas tattva-darçinaù “Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.” (Bg 4.34) A qualified student is adorned with three qualities. First comes praëipät, which means proper submission. Most modern students are light-years away from this standard. Second comes praçna, inquisitiveness. If one has the proper submissive attitude, he qualifies to ask questions. Last is seva, which means menial service. In the Vedic culture, education is not limited to gurukula, which is only its formal element. Non-formal education, in which students live with a senior to learn his trade, takes place extensively. Gurukula is generally only for dvijas. But the principle of residing with someone in order to learn from him is also found outside of gurukula. Çüdra students also benefit this way, through apprenticeship. The apprentice can stay at the mentor’s house in non-formal education. He renders menial service to his mentor, just as does the gurukulé. Appropriate education should be offered to students who display these three qualities. If someone is devoid of them, he has no claim to education.


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The teacher reserves the right to refuse him knowledge. So we can safely say that according to çästra, modern students have basically no right to receive education and modern teachers have no right to teach. The third component is the delivery of knowledge. This refers to where and how knowledge is transmitted. Traditional education uses a boarding system. Both the students and the teacher live together in the school—not just the students, as is generally thought. This implies that the teacher also goes to maìgala-ärati with them, and so on. They live and eat together, spend most of their time together. The location for this kind of educational exchange would traditionally be a natural and peaceful environment, away from congested places like cities, which are governed by the modes of passion and ignorance. Also, to avoid distractions, gurukula was for boys only. Traditional education was mainly to train brähmanas and kñatriyas. Vaiçyas could also accept the brahmacäré-äçrama, but generally for a shorter duration. Brähmanas would study the longest, kñatriyas somewhat less, and vaiçyas still lesser. Even the çüdras would also learn their trade in a proper environment. A proper environment is a very important aspect for a proper education. The fourth principle is the design, or the curriculum, i.e., the selection of the knowledge to be taught, and the method for its presentation. The development of curricula is extremely important. In traditional education, the fountain of knowledge is always the Vedic literature. One of our limitations in ISKCON is that because of a lack of qualified brähmanas, we cannot properly or sufficiently design, on the strict basis of çästras, a variety of curricula, including those for material sciences and arts. The few examples of alternative education that we do have are mostly confined to brahminical, or spiritual, subjects. If we are to establish the complete system of varëäçrama, then we have to extend our efforts also to kñatriyas, vaiçyas, and çüdras. We should provide a variety of courses for them. For instance, it is necessary that our leaders learn the basic principles of administration, but what we now provide in that regard is generally confined to organization related to our temples. We have to go beyond that and teach prospective kñatriyas how to organize a village or a society. We have to train people how to assume that kind of responsibility. In other words, to use the analogy of society compared with a body, we are just beginning to dabble apart from the head, by entering the realm of leadership for the kñatriyas, who are analogous with the arms. Of course, everything will come from



the head, but we have to venture beyond it. We also have to go beyond the arms. The body must be fed. We must introduce courses on natural farming and cow protection. And we need legs to stand on, by training çüdras and giving them security. We must teach all of our devotees how to organize themselves within village communities. So much work awaits us, to prepare devotees to follow dharma in connection to this material world. The way we live nowadays is so artificial and unsustainable. We excessively extract and use so many valuables from the earth, and that creates great imbalances. The industrial system will not maintain us for very long; it is breaking down as we speak. We will have to comply to natural life—either by choice or by force—because in due time nature will force us back to the standard. In ISKCON, by Çréla Prabhupäda’s mercy, we have been forewarned. Now we need to prepare ourselves, and society in general eventually, to live in a natural, pious way. This information is extensively given in çästra. As we have explained, varëäçrama is a system of aptitude-based learning. Following one’s natural inclinations, one will be attracted to particular activities—an attraction to read books, or to carve, and so forth. That will lead to some occupation. He will take up the profession of a brähmana, kñatriya, vaiçya, or çüdra. Aptitudebased learning leads to aptitude-based occupation, or varëa. And açrama is for lifelong spiritual learning. A wonderful feature of the Vedic culture is that from the very beginning of life everyone is trained—and especially if one is born in a Vaiñëava family, like our Çréla Prabhupäda, who from the youngest age had darçana of Çré Çré Rädhä-Govindajé and heard the evening ärati performed by his father with that tiny bell. From his earliest childhood, Çréla Prabhupäda was shrouded with Kåñëa consciousness. That is culture. Culture means that one understands his identity—his relationship to God and everything else—and moves toward self-realization. For that purpose, the varëas and äçramas are essential. It is the nature of the soul to be active, so even when embodied within this material world, the soul must to do something. We are not yet ready to simply sit and chant the holy name day and night like Haridäsa Thäkura. Therefore, in the context of education, we need to focus on how to introduce and apply the principles of varëäçrama, the most complete educational system. The brähmanas play a major role. They direct young men toward their ideal occupation by giving them appropriate training according to their guëäs. Brähmanas also suggest the most suitable äçrama, in respect to one’s varëa and spiritual maturity—

as Lord Caitanya requested Raghunätha Bhaööa Gosvämé to remain a brahmacäré. In other words, by seeing one’s characteristics, the guru understands who can remain a lifelong brahmacäré, and so on. By perceiving those tendencies, he knows the ideal äçrama for the individual, sees to his lifelong education, and guides him safely toward self-realization. The fifth principle of education—direction—is in connection with prayojana. What is the goal of education? Where do we want to go? What is the desired result of our endeavors? As given in the Bhagavad-gétä, the goal is to become self-realized, Kåñëa conscious, to perfect one’s devotional service and go back home, back to Godhead. If this is not the ultimate aim of education, then technically that is not education. These are the five fundamental components of education, viewed according to our siddhänta. If an attempt at education does not properly incorporate all of them, it will be incomplete. Generally, we call the people around us human beings—but are they really? They act like animals, or worse. To be accepted as a human being, one must manifest certain basic qualities. In the same way, to be accepted as an educated person (as Cäëakya Paëòita has explained), one must respect all women other than his wife as mother, consider others’ property to be refuse alongside the road, and see others’ suffering as one’s own. Erudition is intimately connected with character and personality.

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16. What are the prerequisites for being a qualified teacher or qualified student? Bhakti Räghava Swami: We just covered that, when we spoke about disposition, the second component of education. The teacher must display the qualities of a brähmaëa (Bg 18.43), and the student must display the three qualities of a disciple (Bg 4.34). These qualities of both teachers and students are nowadays rare to find. Modern education is grossly misleading. 17. What should constitute the curriculum in education? How much of the curriculum should be from traditional sources, and how much should be from other sources? Bhakti Räghava Swami: A curriculum should be sourced in the çästras and formulated according to one’s varëa. Otherwise, we learn from books that keep changing all the time. When I was in school, in



those days, at the end of the school year students could hand down their textbooks to the next year’s class. But nowadays that would be rare, because information is changing so rapidly. And that is one reason why education has become so expensive; students always need to buy new books to get so much “new knowledge.” They keep presenting “new knowledge,” but so-called knowledge that is ever changing is simply not knowledge at all, but speculation. The beauty of the Vedic çästras is that they are unchanging books of knowledge, wherein one can find everything necessary for material and spiritual well-being. But unfortunately, we fail to appreciate this fact, and some of us do not even have much faith in the çästras. We lack the conviction that the çästras contain everything, including material sciences. Çréla Prabhupäda often said, “Everything is there in my books.” What does it mean? It means that also within his books is his prescription to study further Vedic literature, for which he has duly given references. Of course, Çréla Prabhupäda’s books are sufficient for going back to Godhead, but on the other hand, he permitted his followers to seek further details of application within the Vedic literature. We should undertake the study of various appropriate divisions of the vast Vedic literature. That is a service for brähmanas. But we lack qualified brähmanas. If we do not encourage and support those who have the capacity to become brähmanas, we are missing out, cutting our own throat! How will we extract all of the valuable knowledge from the Vedic literature? It is urgent and essential that we train devotees in this regard. The Gosvämés of Våndävana did that—of course, primarily in relation to bhakti, as ordered by Lord Caitanya—and that was their great service. In ISKCON, we need to push learning to new heights. We need brähmanas who can churn the Vedic literature. When I was in Indonesia a few years ago, I came across someone’s Ph.D. thesis on leadership principles. His bases were the ancient practices in Indonesia, many of them genetically connected to Vedic practices. This tells us that our çästras are full of information on subjects like leadership, etc. Those are mentioned briefly in the Bhagavad-gétä, in seed form. Çréla Prabhupäda said that the Bhagavadgétä is the ABC’s of spiritual life. We should publish several books on Vedic arts and sciences, but we have so few qualified authors. We need brähmanas to establish our culture and lifestyle. We need brähmanas to teach traditional farming and restore natural economy. We need to revive the sixty-four arts and sciences of the Brahma-

saàhitä and the Tenth Canto of Çrémad-Bhägavatam. When KåñëaBalaräma went to Sändépani Muni’s äçrama, they learned a new art each day. Kåñëa showed us that this is part of education. The more we revert to self-sufficient agrarian life, the more we can implement Vedic traditions. Until we do that, we are stuck with all these modern concerns—how to drive a car, how to operate a computer, etc. Sadly, very few devotees are engaged in rural, agrarian communities. It is a great challenge to revert to nature’s way. We are in need of the agrarian lifestyle and wisdom. Urbanization is bad for consciousness. Cities are not a good place for most devotees. Only the preacher truly belongs there. Yes, cities were a part of Vedic society, but unlike modern cities they were based on Kåñëa conscious principles. And again, the majority did not live in cities. It is a huge challenge for all of us, but we have to take it up. It is also a huge challenge to leave the material world for the spiritual world, but we do not give up; we are confident that we can succeed by the blessing of guru, sädhu, and çästra. In the same way, by their mercy, we can reestablish varëäçrama. When there is a standing order given by Çréla Prabhupäda, there is simply no way to avoid it. The longer we hesitate, the longer we put it aside, the more justifications we will nurture to avoid our duty, clinging to the useless and endless argument that “it is difficult.” Procrastination means great danger for our children and future generations. Just as it is an emergency that we must become Kåñëa conscious, it is also an emergency to establish varëäçrama. The longer we remain in this polluted atmosphere, the longer our children are raised in this godless civilization, the more difficult it will be to remain—or become—sane. It is not surprising that our devotee families are facing so many problems.

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18. Is education everyone’s right, or a privilege? Please elaborate. Bhakti Räghava Swami: We have already touched on that point. The student must be qualified to be accepted by the teacher. Therefore, to receive an education is very much a privilege, something similar to devotional service. To live in a temple and receive all its facilities is a privilege awarded only to deserving students. Similarly, to receive an education within Vedic culture one must demonstrate the desired qualifications, i.e., the three basic qualities of a student: praëipät, mental disposition; praçna, inquisitiveness; and seva, service. (Bg. 4.34) Those who do not display such qualities have no sacrosanct birthright to receive education.



19. Is the percentage of literacy in a country relevant to evaluate its citizens’ degree of education?

every member of ISKCON. Then there is a need for more discussion, preaching, and education, for attracting a greater number of devotees to come forward and join the varëäçrama mission in a practical manner. Devotees should read more. Many of our devotees have still not yet read Çréla Prabhupäda’s Essay on Gétä-nagaré, or his conversations on the topic, or carefully read the section of ÇrémadBhägavatam that deals with this matter—the last five chapters in the Seventh Canto, wherein Närada Muni speaks on varëäçrama. We need to be more attentive to what Çréla Prabhupäda has spoken and written. There are hundreds upon hundreds of references describing the need and importance for establishing varëäçrama-dharma. Devotees must understand that a disciple cannot be successful without putting into practice the instructions given by his spiritual master. To establish varëäçrama is one of Çréla Prabhupäda’s crucial instructions. So, individually or as a society, if we neglect this order, not actually manifesting it, we are directly disobeying the order of the spiritual master—one of the ten offenses. How do we expect to progress, individually or collectively, if we overlook this important instruction? When Çréla Prabhupäda said that we need to bring about a complete overhaul of society, this is what he was referring to. The revolution is to make people Kåñëa conscious, which includes varëäçrama, the ideal way for people to live in Kåñëa consciousness. This entails many important duties for us. We have to work hard, pray sincerely, and depend on Lord Kåñëa. Only by endeavor can we get clear realizations about this instruction of Çréla Prabhupäda. So many devotees are struggling, and they need support. If we are to live together in a society, we must create a system of support. For instance, we should support the brähmanas. Because we do not have that support in place, brähmanas are becoming çüdras and working for a salary. That is not right. And there are many other similar considerations, such as cow protection. How can we keep land and cows safe? It is very important. Devotees can serve cows anywhere, even in a city like Secunderabad. It is possible to have a goçälä in the city. They can be involved in some way; at least just by going there, they would become closer to mother cow. We need more devotees to appreciate the whole aspect of cow protection. This will automatically happen if we establish varëäçrama communities. It is a big challenge, especially in the city, but Çréla Prabhupäda mentioned that it can be done anywhere. The varëäçrama system needs to be introduced everywhere. In some places it may be more challenging than in others, but it is intrinsically linked to the process of becoming a devotee. Becoming a devotee calls for understanding varëäçrama.

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Bhakti Räghava Swami: The modern way of thinking is that the higher the level of literacy in a country, the more educated are the people. In other words, if someone gets a diploma or degree, he is considered educated. This is a false indicator that is now being promoted in most countries, practically in all countries. To put things in the right perspective, we must return to the basic definition of education and its purpose. Being illiterate is not a problem, for it is not an absolute necessity on the path of self-realization. Çréla GauraKiçora Däsa Bäbäjé Mahäräja did not know how to sign his name but is one of our predominant äcäryas. That does not mean that we do not appreciate the importance of reading and writing; we are not advocating that parents not teach their children how to read. But we should understand that, on its own, literacy is not an indicator of one’s education. These days most people are literate, but what are they reading or writing about? Just books on all kinds of grämyakathä, newspapers, etc. People are attracted to reading and writing about these things. What is the use if it only facilitates people to engage in more sinful activity? It would be better to not know how to read than to read all this garbage; then at least he could not read harmful literature. Just the other day, a simple guy commented to me that although now people have literacy, they are lost as to what they should read and write about. All these people are being taught various things, but they are misusing what they learn. One should not teach unless the student has interest and character. There is a very nice verse in Manu-saàhitä spoken by the goddess of learning: vidyä brähmanam ityäha sevadhis tesmi raksa mäm asäyakäya mäm mädas tatha syäm viryavat tama “The goddess of learning came to the brähmana and said: I am the highest treasure. Do not impart me to a malicious person. Thus preserved, I shall become supremely strong.” (Ms 2.114) So if we give knowledge to someone who has no qualification, he will misuse it. This is what is happening these days. 20. What steps should devotees take to learn about these two important interrelated concepts of varëäçrama and education? Bhakti Räghava Swami: First, we should chant the holy name with more attention, to become purified. That is the main responsibility of

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We have to deepen our vision on two fronts: varëäçramadharma, which addresses our conditioned nature, and bhagavatdharma, which addresses our spiritual identity. Practically speaking, unless we are liberated we cannot have one without the other. Çréla Prabhupäda said that they go hand in hand. It is evident that since we are in the material world, kaniñöhas cannot sanely say, “We only have to chant Hare Kåñëa,” because unless they have something to eat, they cannot chant Hare Kåñëa. Even if you become like one of the Gosvämés, you still need a little something, a little buttermilk, like Raghunätha Däsa Gosvämé. We are in the material world, so therefore we need varëäçrama. But varëäçrama without devotional service has no real meaning. When we study deeply Çréla Prabhupäda’s instructions, an understanding arises—clear as day—that we need to MAKE VÅNDÄVANA VILLAGES! Thank you very much. Bhagératha Däsa: Thank you Mahäräja for instructing us. Bhakti Räghava Swami: Jaya Çré Våndävana-dhäma! Jaya Çréla Prabhupäda!

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Chapter 2 Interview of His Holiness Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami

“If you are interested of hearing lectures, then çästra says that you should “Hear of Viñëu,” not of any rascal. Hear from Vaiñëava. Then you will be benefited. Otherwise you will not be benefited. Avaiñëavo gurur na sa syät. This is the injunction of the çästra. One who is avaiñëava, he cannot become guru. Ñaö-karma-nipuëo vipro mantra-tantra-viçäradaù. A brähmaëa, and he is very expert in ñaökarma... Ñaö-karma means six kinds of occupational duties. What is that? Paöhana. A brähmaëa must be very, very learned scholar by reading Vedic literature, and päöhana, and teach others of the Vedic literature. Therefore it was the custom of the brähmaëas—they would not accept anyone’s service. They will sit down anywhere and open a school for teaching Vedic literature. Paöhana päöhana. He will personally become learned, and he will teach others. And the students, they will go from door to..., brahmacäré, door to door for begging, “Mother, give me some alms,” and they will give because their students are there in the gurukula or catuñpäöhé. So whatever they will bring, that will be cooked and offered to Kåñëa, and the prasädam will be distributed amongst themselves. This was the process, not twenty rupees’ fee and give some bribe to enter into the school, and that is also all rascal education, no. Firstclass education, without any fee, from the realized soul—that was educational system, varëäçrama-dharma.” (Lecture on Çrémad-Bhägavatam 3.26.27—Bombay, January 1975)

Conducted by Çréman Bhagératha Däsa (BRS) Çré Mäyäpur Dhäma, India, January 2008 Note: His Holiness Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami preferred to answer question number six first, since that would provide the basis for his subsequent answers. 6. What are the pillars of a varëäçrama society? Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: The essence is that varëäçrama is a science of relationship. Our philosophy is explained in terms of sambandha, abhideya, and prayojana. Sambandha simply means “relationship.” We have relationships. A relationship is operated according to the desired prayojana (goal). The same relationship could be operated differently in view of a different result. Therefore, the nature of the activity depends on the nature of the desired result. This is how we operate relationships. You may have a relationship with God, but your goal may be some material benefit. In that case, your abhideya (process) would be praying to God for material prosperity. But if in the same relationship with God you seek prema, the abhideya would be bhakti. What is the constitutional position of a living entity? What is his position in the material world? What are the natural relationships between various living entities? What is the position of God? What is the relationship between God and the living entities? The answers to these questions form the basis of Vedic society. That is varëäçrama. So we are dealing with dharma, the varëäçrama-dharma. Dharma means “religion” or “inherent nature that does not change.” We cannot change the inherent nature of anything—no matter how hard we try—because all those attributes are set by God. Therefore the logical option is always to understand that nature


Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami

and act accordingly—if we want things to work out nicely for us. Varëäçrama gives us in details the positions of all individuals in society, their relations with each other, and their consequent duties. Varëäçrama explains the position of the brähmaëa and the kñatriya, what they do, what they need, and how they relate. The relationship between the kñatriya and the vaiçya is of a different nature. Similarly, a kñatriya-çüdra or a vaiçya-çüdra relation has its unique nature. Each of them has its own position and relationships. Varëäçrama is neither a managerial system, nor an economic system. It includes management, economics, sense gratification, and liberation, but its main purpose is to develop one’s relationship with God. Varëäçrama extends far beyond economic development. That is why it is also called sanätana-dharma (eternal religion). Let us look at varëäçrama and the marital institution. In the spiritual realm, do they have husbands and wives? Is Mother Yaçodä a devotee, or somebody’s wife?

but they are actually old dogs and hogs. They also follow some knowledge, i.e., Vedic knowledge. There is no knowledge without its connection to the Vedas. Modern man searches and simply finds out things that already exist. Benjamin Franklin discovered electricity—which was already there—and Newton figured out gravity, which we see everywhere. This means that they have simply uncovered, unknowingly, a drop of Vedic knowledge pertaining to those phenomena, which are just manifestations of the material world. You cannot avoid that there is only Vedic knowledge—despite the pride and arrogance of the modern people, who feel that they are so unique, special, and somehow aloof from God. Anything not firmly connected to the Vedas is temporary; that is called modern. Therefore, that body of knowledge which is not cohesively connected to the Vedas is called modern. Philosophically, modern simply means temporary. Anything temporary has no substance, it does not last. Therefore, what modern means to people is always mutating; the fashion changes with time. “I am modern” today has to be different than what it was six months ago. “My language is different than six months before. I do not use these old, archaic English terms anymore; I use upbeat modern terms now.” After a few years, those too are rotten and something fresh is used. That is modern. If you understand your relationship with God, things work; if you do not, you will never understand varëäçrama. Ultimately there is only one relationship: the one with Kåñëa, nothing else. Because we chose to ignore the varëäçrama system and created these artificial rules and regulations for society, we have forgotten the path of reestablishing our relationship with Kåñëa. The intelligent follows the path directly, and the less intelligent should at least respect and follow the scriptures piously. God and his laws are all there is. Kåñëa says, “I am the taste of water”; anything that happens, anything special, is Him. Materialistic people want to go to the heavenly planets by performing yajïa; but in truth, all that they desire is in fact Kåñëa. The road they take is Kåñëa, and so is their destination— everything is Kåñëa—but they cannot see this underlying truth. Therefore they are in illusion. So the essence of varëäçrama is to understand relationships. A human being can have four different occupations—brähmaëa, kñatriya, vaiçya, çüdra—and four different social positions: brahmacäré, gåhastha, vänaprastha, and sannyäsa. Each one has a specific definition, a nature that makes it what it is. Varëäçrama is the science for understanding those positions and their interrelations. To understand varëäçrama, first of all we have to understand who

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Bhagératha Däsa: She is both a devotee and the wife of Nanda Mahäräja. Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: Okay. She has a husband, so they have a marital relationship there in the spiritual world. That relationship is reflected here in the material world. The rules originate there and are based on their spiritual behavior. Did Nanda Mahäräja and Mother Yaçodä have a child? Bhagératha Däsa: Yes. Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: Do they eat? Do they sleep? Do they have a house? Do they cook, wash their clothes, or make ornaments? Yes. The difference is that there they do it for Kåñëa, while here we do it selfishly. That is the varëäçrama system. Varëäçrama is not an economic system, solely explaining how to make money and put things together. That is what a vaiçya would conclude. Therefore in our society, up until now varëäçrama is not manifesting because we do not really understand it; without the basic understanding, any effort to put it together will fail. We miss the point because we only consider varëäçrama as a system of economics, not as a religion, not as something eternal. It does not matter whether we live in a modern society or not—varëäçrama works. We cannot accept the imposition of mundane adjustments upon eternal religion. Manu-saàhitä describes what is modern. Millions of years ago, Manu gave the definition of modern: “that which is not Vedic.” Modern people are very proud and consider themselves special,

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we are. If we do not, we cannot understand the identity of someone else. If you cannot see yourself, you cannot see what is outside. In varëäçrama, if you can understand who you are, you can come to understand everyone else and organize society. But if you are unsure of your own identity, you will be unable to function in relationships or to organize society. The main duty of a brähmaëa is in relation to knowledge, to study scriptures and teach; that of a kñatriya is protection; that of a vaiçya is economic development, to generate wealth and give charity; and that of a çüdra is service, to happily assist the other three classes without any bad feelings. This is what we want. Then we have the äçramas. The brahmacäré gets trained how to function in life. Without the brahmacäré training, one cannot be a gåhastha, vänaprastha, or sannyäsé. If one is a çüdra, that is all right because he will follow what the brähmaëas, kñatriyas, or vaiçyas do. But without training, you cannot be a gåhastha per se; you have to learn from somebody. If you find some nice gåhasthas, properly trained and successful, and ask them, you will find out that they absorbed that culture from their parents or someone else. This is a science. For a brahmacäré, the essential is that he is a menial servant meant to study. He is humble, respectful, clean, and strictly celibate; he is studying and gaining knowledge. Without those qualities you cannot be a gåhastha. Çréla Prabhupäda explains that a first-class brahmacäré makes a first-class gåhastha. So it follows that a secondclass brahmacäré makes a second-class gåhastha, and that third-class gives you third-class. Only a first-class brahmacäré can make a firstclass gåhastha. There is no exception to this rule, because we are dealing with science. This is neither a matter of opinion nor a matter of preference. Suppose you have a car—what are you going to do with it? You are going to drive around. But if you decide to use it to make mango juice … You could to some extent. You would have to stick the mangos into the fan or under the wheels. But this is neither what the car is for nor the best way to make juice. You have to understand and follow principles. What does God say? What is God’s opinion? His opinion is the one that matters. In the Bhagavad-gétä Kåñëa says, “Some say this and some say that, but My opinion is this.” You have to follow Kåñëa. This is varëäçrama, this is dharma. You cannot change it. Sugar is sweet and you have no say in the matter. You could use it as a paper weight or whatever—you could do that—but sugar is sweet; that is what makes it sugar. This is the definition of dharma.

The gåhastha is going to practice what he learned as a brahmacäré. His inspiration will be detachment. A brahmacäré learns to submissively follow the orders of the guru. He develops humility, tolerance, respect for others, and he is active, doing service, always absorbed in activities. If the gåhastha does exactly the same thing it will work. Therefore if he is not a good brahmacäré he will not make a good gåhastha. Women will not live with men who are impatient, intolerant, disrespectful, or lazy. They will not live with them— guaranteed. The gåhastha has to understand who God is, and the wife follows the husband. That is an important point. But we have to understand the term follow as something dynamic. Following implies that one person is following another person who is actively going somewhere. Although a man may demand that his wife follow him, it only makes sense if he is going somewhere. If he is not going anywhere, what is the meaning of that injunction? That is why most marriages fail— because the man is ignorant of the nature of relationship. He just likes to think that he is the boss. But he does not understand that he is being the boss like a woman, not like a man. The main problem in society is that most gåhastha men act like women. Therefore, because the man acts like a woman, she has to act like a man. One of the main reasons for “women’s liberation” is men behaving like women. The male and female couple is dynamic in a balanced relationship. If you have full male, you will have full female; if you have partial male, you will have partial female. For sure, the missing male part has to be filled by the female, and vice versa. If the man is forty percent female, then the woman will have to be forty percent male. For instance, if your perspective is seeing the sannyäsé order only in terms of being in charge, you will never establish varëäçrama in millions of millions of years. God does not work like this. God is male. He is the only male. How does God deal with His devotees? “As you surrender to Me, I reciprocate.” What does it mean? He deals with His devotees as they want to be dealt with. This is male—not ordering whatever one wants with the expectation that it should be done without any consideration. Mother Yaçodä wants to feed Kåñëa now—what is Kåñëa doing? He is sitting down and eating. According to the modern hard-line male definition, that would be improper. That is because those hardcore males are all women. I will not go into much detail, but I can prove philosophically and psychologically that they are all women. Real men are very gentle, sensitive, and accommodative. All these so-called tough guys are women; they just

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happen to be of male gender. Women cannot get along with them because of this: two women vying for control cannot get along. The real brahmacärés are those who do not need women, not those who do not like women. Some loathe women because “they do this, they do that, and they are nasty, materialistic, and self-absorbed” or whatever other reason there could be. If a man dislikes women, he cannot be brahmacäré. The real brahmacäré is the one who does not need women. Whether women are around or not does not bother him at all. A true brahmacäré can serve prasäda to women and not be disturbed; for him it does not matter whether woman or man—he is just serving prasäda to devotees. The brahmacäré who does not serve women because of aversion is the guy who is going to get married very soon. Talking big and saying “Women are trash” will not make you a brahmacäré. When womanizers talk of women with other men, they talk about women just like that, as if women are garbage. Same with the top hardcore brahmacärés. Where are they now? Most of them are married or getting married. The point is that the new gåhastha, now being inspired by the wife, has to become humble and tolerant to make the gåhastha life work. The women will demand that. Any successful gåhastha man knows this fact. Anyone who denies this point does not know what he is talking about. I can boldly say that. Why? Because while the men may think that they are doing fine, I ask their wives and find out the real story. A gåhastha performs his duty in the association of a woman to further his progress in Kåñëa consciousness. In other words, the naiñöiké-brahmacäré, who heard and practiced the knowledge in the way of sädhana and menial service, sees no need for family life and remains brahmacäré. The upakurvaëa-brahmacäré has understood the same knowledge but not realized it yet. The naiñöiké, who has strong realizations, remains a brahmacäré. Those who did not realize move on to gåhastha life, and by interacting with the family in a progressive way remove the need for it—just like we use a thorn to remove another thorn. That is the function of the gåhastha-äçrama. A vänaprastha, who has dealt with the senses, now restrains from engaging them in various aspects of sense gratification and strives to engage them fully in the Lord’s service. Lord Kåñëa says in the Bhagavad-gétä that some engage the senses in the fire of sense objects; that is gåhastha. The vänaprastha reverses the process. He is to deal with the senses to control them. He creates a severe, harsh situation, where he becomes indifferent—because sannyäsa means

indifference. He may be in the renounced situation, but his mentality is indifference. The gåhastha has to eat nice food; the brahmacäré eats what is given. The gåhastha makes arrangements to eat nice food, while the vänaprastha makes arrangement not to eat nice food. The sannyäsé could not care less whether it is nice or not—if it is nice, Kåñëa has given, and if it is not nice, it does not matter. That is varëäçrama in a nutshell—how each one of them relates to each other. The twelfth chapter of the Manu-saàhitä explains it. Now, some may think that of the last five chapters in the Seventh Canto, in the instructions of Närada to Yudhiñöhira, only the first two (“The Perfect Society: Four Social Classes” and “The Perfect Society: Four Spiritual Classes) explain varëäçrama, and that basically the last three of them (“The Behavior of a Perfect Person,” “Ideal Family Life,” and “Instructions for Civilized Human Beings”) discuss only pure spiritual life and the paramahaàsa, not varëäçrama. That is a mistake. The whole idea of varëäçrama is to reach the state of paramahaàsa. Unless you know what a paramahaàsa is, how will you get there? To reach the destination, you must know what the goal is: prayojana. The devotees are unable to apply varëäçrama because they cannot regulate the senses. In other words, with varëäçrama, if you endeavor to make money you have to proceed in a way that will assist your God consciousness. When dealing with the senses, the problem is not sense engagement per se; it is that the senses are not engaged in the Lord’s service. A general misconception causes the devotees to avoid dealing with their senses out of fear of mäyä. The problem is that they do not engage them in the Lord’s service either. This dry renunciation creates a void, and socially we get huge problems. To solve their issues, the devotees turn their attention to karmé self-help books, seminars, and that kind of stuff, because they do not follow in depth their own philosophy and culture, because “It is mäyä to engage the senses.” Çrémad-Bhägavatam has a lot of instructing stories for us in this regard. Would you say that most of the stories found in its pages are about gåhasthas, or celibates? Are Dhruva Mahäräja, Prahläda Mahäräja, Kaçyapa Muni, Kardama Muni, Devahüti, and all the kings of the Tenth Canto celibate? No, they are gåhasthas. But they do talk philosophy. Would you say that Çrémad-Bhägavatam is a pure philosophical work that has no relevance to the culture of Kåñëa consciousness? No. But this is how most devotees look at it. You find two conversations where the same husband talks to two wives—

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Kaçyapa is talking to Diti, then to Aditi. Basically, both of them are making demands that are unreasonable, improper, and unimportant. How does Kaçyapa deal with them? You can read and understand the tone of voice and words he uses. That is the example of how a man should deal with his wife—not just by saying “That is nonsense” or “You do not know what you are talking about.” Men generally deal with women improperly. The soul wants to be God so much; he must be the controller and enjoyer. Anything that does not make him a controller is not appreciated. Therefore if the man is sensitive and submissive to the needs of his family, it is taken as a sign of weakness. Even a so-called top gåhastha would rebuke this idea. They all are like women! Real men are sensitive, gentle, and sense-controlled. But nowadays men cannot be gentle and sense-controlled, because they are untrained; so consequently they will be nasty and rough. Because that is what happens to women when they are told to be austere—they become nasty. If you put men in an austere environment, their mind and intelligence becomes submissive. So the brahmacäré is placed in an austere environment, becomes submissive, and renders service to the guru. That is the way. That is masculine. Unless you are a brahmacäré, you cannot really be a good gåhastha. Of course, you could learn to be by training, but the point is that we do not have training. Now, how does a brahmacäré respect his own nature while dealing with the gåhasthas, as vänaprasthas, sannyäsés, brähmaëas, kñatriyas, vaiçyas, and çüdras intermingle with each other? See, in varëäçrama you should maintain your nature, and for that you have to be aware of your nature in the first place. Bhagératha Däsa: How do we recognize varëas in Kali-yuga? It seems very hard to sort them out. Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: It is very easy. But in the Age of Kali, because of false ego, no one will accept. Varëäçrama sees the spectrum of human society. Some excel in economics, some in administration, some in knowledge. You start with the çüdra as the common platform. Among those, the dvijas, the natural leaders of the common people, will stand out. Not that we start from the top downward, with the brähmaëa, and everybody else is sub-standard. No, it is the other way around. Everyone is human, but among humans we must find leadership and leaders in knowledge, administration, and wealth. Without those, nothing will work. If you do not know where to go, you will not get anywhere. Without administration or protection, a brähmaëa cannot study and a vaiçya cannot prosper. If there is

no economic development, nothing moves and the wheels stop. Varëäçrama only appears to be different in the modern day. How do we recognize varëas? Well, how do you maintain yourself? The first option is through education, by cultivating and disseminating knowledge. The second is by protecting your community and providing facilities for them to perform their respective religious duties. The third is by generating wealth, either through farming, dairy, business, or banking. If you are not under any of these three options, then you are a çüdra. If you work for somebody or have a salary, you are a çüdra. It is very simple. The same goes for the äçramas. If you are unmarried and not planning to get married soon and live under the direction of the temple commander, what are you called? Bhagératha Däsa: Brahmacäré. Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: If you have a wife or you want to get married, what are you called? A gåhastha, is it not? Then, if you were married, gave it all up, are now retired and dedicate yourself fulltime in service to progress in Kåñëa consciousness, what are you? A vänaprastha. Then, if you dedicate yourself on a full-time basis but are not dependent like a brahmacäré, what is your position? Sannyäsé. If äçrama is so simple, why then is varëa so difficult? It is simple, but no one wants think about it, because no one wants to be a çüdra. That is the whole point. It is so easy, but there is a mental block. That is the problem in Kali-yuga. We are neither capable of understanding our identity, nor our relationships, nor our duty toward anyone else. That is the first mistake. If you observe society now, you see educators, doctors, lawyers; you find administrators and politicians; you find businessmen and farmers; and everybody else works for those other three. So is not varëäçrama already going on? That is the second difficulty in establishing varëäçrama—we think that varëäçrama is not going on because of Kali-yuga. This is not a scientific view. To make a parallel: let us say that a great cook is preparing a meal and that a layman also cooks something. Are you going to tell me that this changes the process of cooking, in itself, or that the universal principles of cooking are not at work? You have a pot, you put it on the stove, you turn it on, you put something in the pot, you heat it up, and it becomes soft for eating. Is there any difference in the principles used by the expert and by the other cook? No. The chef just understands the principles better, applies them more scientifically, and therefore his preparation comes out nice.

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So varëäçrama and its principles are in effect right now in the whole world, in every aspect of life. Even if you take a tribe—there is a king, there are warriors, and there is everybody else who assists. You have persons who go out and make things happen; they are your vaiçyas. Are there no husbands and wives nowadays? Are there no males and females, no parents and children? Not only that—is the influence of Kali so extensive that in Kali-yuga water is not wet and fire not hot, that the sun does not rise in the east and set in the west anymore, that the wind does not blow and the rain does not fall, that people do not need to sleep, to breathe, to eat, and to go to the toilet, that they do not like sex as they used to, that children are not born from the wombs of women, that nothing works like that anymore? What has changed? If in Kali-yuga varëäçrama will not work, tell me what has changed? People are not following the Vedas, that’s all. But that does not mean that the nature of the living entity has changed. There are dogs in the Indian villages, in the Indian cities, and in New York. Is there any real difference between them? So the dogs, the birds, the water, the wind, and everything else are the same. Only human beings refuse to acknowledge their role—that is their change! The basic perversion is that women have become men and men have become women. But their natures are still underlying, and if you revert to operating it correctly, it will work. That is the beauty of it. Varëäçrama works despite the modern idea that it does not. It still goes on. We still need money, administration, and protection. The qualified brähmaëa, kñatriya, and vaiçya know what is going on. They clearly see the reasons how to organize varëäçrama. The businessman knows; he gets capital and makes money. A leader knows that you still have to organize people and give protection. Someone who reads books and studies acquires knowledge and teaches. What has changed? Nothing! The science still remains, and if you follow it, it still works today. It is nice to see all these examples that are handed down by the traditional system. That is science, and it works. Varëäçrama is not external. We wear dhoti and chadar. Why? Because it is Indian? No, because it is what Kåñëa wants us to wear. What is the underlying principle? It is gentle and cultured. Therefore, even if you have to wear non-devotional clothes you wear something that is cultured, and you still follow varëäçrama. You will not wear stretch-jeans or a funky t-shirt. You dress appropriately, according to the situation. That is the rule of varëäçrama: according

to your age, your position, your relationship, and your situation, you dress appropriately. You do not dress outside of those parameters. That is varëäçrama. So can we say that it does not apply now? A man going to the office wears a suit. Does he wear that suit at home? This is all varëäçrama. But people do not know what varëäçrama means anymore; therefore they cannot identify it. Often someone who has suffered many divorces, because he was ignorant of the basic principles of family life, will conclude that marriage no longer works. The truth is that the majority of couples simply do not know what to do. We see others making it through due to some remnants of family traditions; for them, marriage still works. A loser will label tradition as obsolete, while others still apply it with success. A varëäçrama society can exist only if there is education. You have to train people in varëäçrama. Varëäçrama means to act as human beings; you do not train them as animals. Education basically comprises three stages: çravaëa, manana, and nididhyäsana. Çravaëa means to hear—you hear about the nature of God, the individual soul, and the material energy, as well as their interrelations. That is knowledge. Manana means to contemplate what was heard and put it to practice. It is not confined to thinking, but is combined with practice. Not to combine knowledge and application is a very grave and common mistake. And nididhyäsana means realization. By practicing with knowledge one gains realization. From that, we can understand that a true leader wants people to proceed with knowledge. He knows that this way the results will be greater and long lasting. People who are not real leaders are afraid that they will lose control, or their position, if people are educated. They think that the less others know, the easier it is to control them. But a real leader appreciates other people’s qualities and encourages them to do things with knowledge. So you want to know what the obstacles are in our society. Well, consider the following: We know the wife is supposed to follow what the husband says, but she is a human being and will ask why— “human” means to inquire. So if the husband does not explain, or the parents do not explain, or the temple president never explains, and so forth, then it is not a human society. If an authority does not like the devotees to study and ask questions or ask the reason behind an instruction, then he is not acting as a human being. This is why varëäçrama education does not manifest in our society. ISKCON is a society meant for human beings, but many of our leaders are happier

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with a bunch of sheep, because people who think are problems for bureaucrats. Bureaucrats are not leaders; they are çüdras. Çüdra does not imply a guy with a big fat belly just good enough to do physical work. The brähmaëas have their çüdras. Even today, when you have a school are there not people who maintain the building, go around, and drive buses? In the modern context, we can say that they are çüdras working for the brähmaëas. Same goes for the hospital: doctor is a brahminical profession, so the nurses, the anesthetists, secretaries, cleaners, etc., are all çüdras. The kñatriyas, the government, have their çüdras. You have administrators, generals, ministers, and then the people who assist them. The foot soldiers, the policemen, the workers making the roads, and the secretaries sitting behind desks pushing papers are all çüdras of kñatriyas. That is why bureaucrats are çüdras; they are maintained by the administration they serve. They do not generate money or power. If you are maintained by someone else you are a çüdra. Bäs! Does it make sense? If you go into a big shop in India, how many vaiçyas are sitting in the shop? There is only one guy, at the cash counter, chewing pan and wearing a t-shirt. He is the vaiçya, and everybody else, showing you the items and all, are çüdras. Being a salesman does not make you a businessman. In this regard, Çréla Prabhupäda told a story to elucidate who is a vaiçya. There is a particular group of vaiçyas named suvarëamallika, who come from a village just outside Kolkata. At that time there was a man who was the prominent businessman from this mallika community. One day a young man came from the village to Kolkata to meet him. Being confident in his qualification and family reputation he asked, “I have a good business plan, and I come from the same community as yours. Please lend me some money for investment. I will surely return your money later, with interest.” The big businessman looked at the younger mallika straight in the eyes and challenged, “So you are a vaiçya, huh?” The young man proudly said yes. “Okay,” the mallika said, “then come with me and I will show you your capital investment.” He got out of his chair and went over to the window. He pointed to a garbage bin on the street, where a dead rat was lying. At that time Kolkata was experiencing plague, and the government was giving two rupees per rat. That was a lot of money in those days. Prabhupäda said that one paisa would get you more vegetables then a man could carry—let alone two rupees. So

the mallika said, “If you are a vaiçya, go down, pick up that rat, get your two rupees, and start your business.” The young mallika did just that, and consequently became a very rich man in later years. That is a vaiçya, not the guy who has been selling hats for the last twenty years. That is a salesman. A real vaiçya will not be selling hats for so long. He gets hats, starts selling them, gets more hats—but at some point he grows and starts hiring çüdras. That is a vaiçya. Varëäçrama is very straightforward, but because of his impersonal nature, modern man cannot appreciate relationships and their science. He simply looks at it from the angle of “I am the controller.” Let us look at the mother-and-child relationship. According to the modern viewpoint the mother is the absolute controller of the child. She is senior, she has knowledge, and what she says goes! Every law in the land will uphold that. Any adult will support it. Whatever she wants to do with the kid—how she wants to dress or feed him, what school he will attend—is absolutely, one hundred percent, in her hands. Dictatorial. Put like that, it sounds like the child is in a terrible position. But if a woman coldly acts just like that with her child, is she representing motherhood, the feminine manifestation of the parental position? How should mature women deal with their kids even though they have full control? Even though, in tattva, the mother is in control, in rasa, in the relationship, who is actually in charge, the kid or the mother? Will the mother feed the child whenever she wants, or when the child wants to eat? When the child is crying, the mother responds. When the child is tired, the mother makes some arrangement. When he is hungry or wants to go to the toilet, she attends to his need. So who is actually in charge here? Bhagératha Däsa: In this case, the child is in charge. Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: Yes, the child. That is varëäçrama. But most devotees look at it the other way around. That is why they cannot establish the culture. That is why, in the sphere of interpersonal dealings, those devotees have no life—because they cannot accept the submission and sacrifices required in relationships. Good relations are based on trust, and in Kali-yuga nobody will trust anybody. Can we say that at any point the mother lose her identity, or feeling of control, because she is one hundred percent for the child? And the more she is around the child, and the less she takes time for herself, do we not call her a better mother? Which woman would we consider the best mother—the dedicated one or the self-indulgent? The mother who is selfless is the best, anyone would agree. Now, does

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she lose her control or identity when she serves the kid? No. So why would a man lose his identity as a man if he does everything to meet the needs of the wife and children? This is the exact problem in our society. Most devotees—Western and even Indian—have no clear idea of who they are in regard to social dealings. They do not know what a male is, they do not know what a female is, and they do not know what parenting is. “In case of any disagreement, the wife has to follow the husband”; “The wife has to be submissive”; “The wife has to serve the husband”—are there any more clichés? “The wife follows the husband and he is in control.” “The wife serves submissively and he is enjoying.” “Control” and “enjoy”—what is that? That is the false ego, the false identity that one is God. How can we accept ahaìkära as the working principle behind family life? Until we get rid of this so-called masculine nature we cannot establish true society, because around ninety percent of our society are gåhasthas. Women are willing to be submissive and follow. Every movie, novel, or story depicts a man who is a man, who is going somewhere— powerful, accomplished, and gentle with ladies. Can you show me one woman who will resist, who will not be submissive to such a man, the noble knight on a white horse? If the man has no clue of who he is, how is the woman supposed to follow? So this is what the whole problem boils down to. If the man is trying to become a man, everything works. Then how do you train men to be men? You require teachers to train them, a gurukula. That means we need brähmaëas. The soul is feminine by constitution; therefore one needs a lot of training to take the male position. So brähmaëas will train men to be real men. Out of those, some will be kñatriyas and will reestablish social order, some will be vaiçyas and will create prosperity. Everyone else is basically çüdra. So all you have to do is create a class of qualified brähmaëas who understand varëäçrama and its application. Brähmaëas comprehend the nature of man and woman, as well as the ideal platform for their interactions. If you do that, you will have varëäçrama. That is the end of the discussion; it is that straightforward. But to do that is a lot of work. That is why education is so essential. Now that we have established the basics we can answer the other questions.

1. What is your understanding of education? Or, according to you, what constitutes education?

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Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: Education is training somebody to engage the body, mind, and words in Kåñëa’s service. Irrespective of the student’s position, no matter what his conditioned nature is, a brähmaëa should know how to engage him in Kåñëa’s service— without attachment, or by dovetailing his attachments—in the fields of knowledge, administration, production, or assistance. Education should reveal one’s relationship with God and his path to achieve Him. Everything else is secondary. 2. How should we impart education in general society, on the one hand, and within our ISKCON, on the other? Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: First we must deal with our own society, that is clear. We have to manifest something first, so that the outside world will be impressed. Otherwise, we would have to all become academicians and take over the academic world. And only if we would succeed could we effect change in the world. If we have to wait until that day to rectify something, it is neither very realistic nor strategic. To begin with, the academic field is not very congenial to devotional service. Someone who was in academics before and becomes a devotee can use his sphere of influence to promote Kåñëa consciousness—that is fine—but only a few devotees who take to academics after coming in contact with bhakti avoid the traps of mäyä. They get into a lot of troubles, doubts, and deviations, because they have to submit to the perspective-in-fashion to be respected or promoted. The perspectives taught are always completely subjective. They have to follow in the footsteps of whoever is their teacher, and he is in no way coming in paramparä or connected to çästra. In imparting education, the main thing is quite simple: when you understand a subject and talk about it, education is going on. But you need the support of the community to run a school. You have to convince them that following the principles of varëäçrama is worthwhile. In South India, what does the average brähmaëa expect his kid to do? Do they send them all to gurukula to become great preachers? No. They expect them to become engineers, computer professionals, etc. First of all you must have a community, then you have to convey your vision, and then convince them practically. Convincing the community means convincing the women. A society progresses according to the value system of its women.



In other words, if you want to implement varëäçrama, you have to be practical and down-to-earth. If you reject the principle that you have to convince the women, for instance, then you are not following varëäçrama, because you ignore the nature of the genders. According to the needs of the wife, the husband must provide. Due to her nature, the woman needs to be secure; if she does not feel secure with a proposal, she will not accept it. So the man has to provide that security, in a Kåñëa conscious way as much as possible, and it is best if he is trained to do all that before he gets married. Therefore the women are to be convinced first. You must speak in such a way to convince both the men and women. The man can be intellectually impressed, but the woman has to be convinced on practical grounds. And because each married man knows he has to deal with his spouse, it has to sound practical for him also. Otherwise, they will retort, “It is nice in theory, but it will not work.” So unless you convince the community, specifically the women, you are not going anywhere.

Bhagératha Däsa: What do you mean exactly, Mahäräja, when you say that the false ego of the men is the main problem in ISKCON?

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3. What are the weaknesses in the modern educational system? Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: The modern educational system lacks connection with God. It is therefore ever-changing. It has no substance. If you help a person who wants to work in society to achieve his material goals but, in doing so, do not deal at all with the person as a spiritual entity, what is the benefit? You just provide mundane tools, ignoring the real needs of the individual. Okay, he learns some nice English, some nice math, history, a few communication skills, some social skills, etc., but what is done for his soul? That is the weakness: by its very process of teaching the tools, modern education destroys the person spiritually. 4. What weaknesses plague ISKCON, would you say, in relation to its knowledge and implementation of the Vedic concepts of education? Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: Mainly false ego. If the men do not recognize their ignorance and stubbornly maintain that their actions are fine, then women also will not accept guidance. The women follow the men, so if the men are unsubmissive, the women will become unsubmissive too—the men lead the way. The men are just too proud now. Therefore if you want to implement Vedic education, you need a very long-term vision, a clear understanding of what you are trying to get, and work on it for years. The first thing is to convince the men that if they are the leaders of society and women are to follow them, then they have to plan everything thoroughly.

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Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: For instance, no one wants to be a çüdra. Furthermore, practically no one wants to be a man—because man is not at the emotional center, the woman is. Bhagératha Däsa: What kind of training should we give to address this problem of false ego? Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: In philosophy, we all accept that the false ego is the problem, but we have to accept it culturally too, for realizations to come. Let us say that I am the man and therefore my wife serves me. I come home and she cooked a nice meal. I sit and enjoy the meal while she engages in some pleasant discussion with me. I am the husband here; I am the man; I am the controller and enjoyer. The wife is serving submissively; she is following. So where was my relationship with the woman in that situation? I simply existed in the state of controller and enjoyer. It was not a dynamic relationship. Let me elaborate the male and female principle using evidence from grammar: A verb has two possible functions, either depicting existence or action. When we say “Kåñëa is swimming,” there is no action performed by Kåñëa, per se. It pertains to existence, not action. Technically the verb is is, and not swimming, and what we are saying is that Kåñëa exists in the state of swimming. In Sanskrit this is called bhäva, or “existence.” On the other hand, we have kriyä, when action takes place: “Kåñëa swims to the other side of the Yamunä.” Now we are saying that Kåñëa does something: he gets from one side to the other. Otherwise, “swimming” is just a state of activity. This is so because Kåñëa—the original male, the only constitutional male—has these two positions: that of pure existence, ätmäräma, and that of lélä, activity. Kåñëa is ätmäräma, everything, and there is no need for Him to do anything because He is perfect and complete in Himself. Only Kåñëa can do that. Then He expands, for rasa. When Kåñëa expands, He reciprocates with the devotees according to their position. The devotees are only endeavoring to please Kåñëa, and Kåñëa willingly interacts on their terms. Kåñëa deals with Yaçodä as mother—not as friend, or servant, or girlfriend— because Yaçodä wants to serve Kåñëa as her son. Govinda deals with the cowherd boys as friends—neither parents nor servants—and with the gopés as intimate girlfriends only. So Kåñëa deals with the vraja-väsés on their terms.



That is called äçraya-viñaya. Viñaya means “enjoyer” and applies to Kåñëa; äçraya means “those under the shelter” and refers to the devotees. Mother Yaçodä is in vätsalya-rasa. What rasa is Kåñëa in? Kåñëa is not in a rasa—Kåñëa is rasa! All the five rasas are Kåñëa, but Mother Yaçodä is a devotee who draws out the parental rasa from Kåñëa, and Kåñëa interacts with her based on that. That is the meaning of ye yathä mäà prapadyante täàs tathaiva bhajämy aham: “As you surrender, I reciprocate.” “If you surrender to me as a parent, then I interact with you as a child.” The mundane masculine position, being expanded from Kåñëa’s original masculinity, also accesses these two states—existence or activity—but to a limited degree. Kåñëa, male, relates to his energies, female, in lélä, not as ätmäräma. So a man, and not a woman, has the capacity, relatively speaking, to self-satisfaction. But in that first state, he simply exists and withdraws from interaction; there is no interaction with the woman. In his other state, there is rasa—i.e., the female manifests and he acts on her terms. A woman cannot simply exist; she must relate. So we see the husband just exists there—“I am the enjoyer”— and the wife does whatever he says. In that state of simply existing, the man does not actually get anything done, especially in terms of relationships. It does not work. Where is the relationship? That is the reason it does not work. Women do not mind serving and following—in fact they prefer that—but they will be inspired to do their duty only if they feel their man is worth it. If their man is not going anywhere, if he is not doing anything emotional for them, and if he is not even going to reciprocate or relate with them, then they will not carry on for very long—unless they are very saintly— because their man is not in the state that they can relate to. The feminine nature is dependent and therefore cannot be self-satisfied. The soul’s existence is based on its connection with God; the feminine existence absolutely must be connected to the masculine. This is the metaphysical explanation. The feminine nature exists only when the masculine is there; it does not have a separate existence. Masculinity can exist whether the feminine is manifested or not. When the man withdraws and just exists, the woman cannot relate to him because there is nothing for her to interact with. She will become frustrated and angry. Clearly, false ego is the main hindrance. When the woman approaches, the man gradually makes himself the center, and this is a misapplication of the male nature. The female should be the

center, because the äçraya is the center and the viñaya goes around the äçraya, even though the viñaya remains the enjoyer. Kåñëa is the enjoyer but moves with Mother Yaçodä in her world, and derives greater satisfaction in doing so than in the ätmäräma position. In Kåñëa’s angle of vision, Mother Yaçodä is the center. All of Yaçodä’s attention is on Kåñëa; in her mind Kåñëa is the center of her world. For the male the female is the center, and for the female the male is the center. But in their interaction, the female is at the center because she is the dependent party. When the male thinks he is the center, he cuts the female out and actually acts like a female. Kåñëa is in control but enjoys through Mother Yaçodä’s world. Kåñëa eats what she cooks for Him, when she arranges it, and where she sets it up. When Kåñëa goes out to the field with the cowherd boys and Yaçodä cries “Do not go!” Kåñëa does not say, “Mother, get out of mäyä!” Nor does Kåñëa simply walk out on her. Kåñëa does not behave like that. Because she is the mother, Kåñëa tries to convince her by saying, “Do not worry, mother! Balaräma and Balabhadra will be there, and they have clubs and swords! I will be protected. Everything will be fine.” They have to take a huge lunch pack with them to ensure they will not be hungry, and she sends some servants along too. It takes Kåñëa forty-five minutes to get out the door. The whole village of Våndävana is crying. This goes on every day! The conclusion is that Kåñëa interacts with Mother Yaçodä according to her feelings. Even though her husband is the center of her world, the wife will relate to him based on her mood of the moment. When the man wants to be the center, he is actually saying, “Yes, I am a big woman”—because making yourself the emotional center means you are feminine, you are dependent on someone else. “I am tough and cool. The women do what I say.” But my being tough and cool depends upon the women doing what I say; I am not independent. Take the toughest and the coolest guy standing at the corner, with his tough looks, trying to be stylish. If he stares at some good-looking “chicks” passing by and they break up laughing—“Look at that loser standing over there! Who does he think he is, wearing those goofy clothes and staring like that?”—do you think he is going to remain cool, or he will just shrink, run home, and probably sleep for two days? So his coolness, toughness, and so-called masculinity were dependent on these women. This makes him dependent and feminine, and makes the women independent in that situation, by the same token. Then the poor guy wonders, “Why is she independent?” Because the man is becoming increasingly female and dependent, the

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woman has to become increasingly male and independent, and meet him halfway. Many men, due to pride, will object to this argument. I am just giving the essence in a nutshell here. I can explain it for hours and hours in detail if anyone has doubts. This is the biggest problem in our society, as far as establishing a cultural norm. There are plenty of devotees who do not understand their position. They cannot apprehend their own nature, and do not grasp the nature of others either. For instance, devotees who know commerce could set up businesses that would make a lot of money for our temples. Why are they not generally doing so? Because the leaders of our temples do not understand how to deal with vaiçyas. They expect too much money out of them. Vaiçyas function out of attachment—that is their nature—but an untrained authority will expect them to give everything. This can never make sense to vaiçyas, so they will keep their economic pursuits separate from ISKCON. Even when they want to advise in the field of economics, they are often ignored because the authorities are too proud to listen to them: “I am in charge.” The title of temple president does not make you omniscient. Without a solid background, how can he claim he knows the workings of economics—just because he is the temple president? That kind of attitude is born of false ego. That is why the business people work outside the society, because the leadership has no clue how to deal with them. For similar reasons, most brähmaëas also leave. These days everybody wants to make everyone else çüdra—that is the point. Everyone in Kali-yuga is born a çüdra. They therefore relate to that. We have to train people. So this false ego is the biggest problem, because varnasräma gives you a social identity and you have to function accordingly. Of course, we are not the body, but we cannot deny that we are conditioned by this body and mind. We have to work according to our conditioning. A common fallacious argument against varnasräma misquotes the fact that we are not the body. What they are truly saying is, “I do not want to be regulated by varnasräma, therefore I am going to use bits of philosophy to sidetrack from my duties.” But if you say this to their face, you may get a nuclear explosion—some kind of feminine tantrum, yelling and screaming under false ego, without any sign of intelligence—because they do not know and certainly do not want to know. Devotees are philosophically very intelligent. You cannot find a group who knows philosophy better. But, besides a rare few, they are culturally ignorant or unwilling. They accept and know our

philosophy, but not our culture. This creates a void. So they will go out and spend hundreds of dollars on self-help books and seminars of all kind, trying to find out how to operate the material energy. Most devotees have self-help books on their shelves. But if you try to bring up what the Vedic literature has to offer—in all fields of activities of this world—they will again rebuke and twist the philosophy: “We are not jïänés, we are Vaiñëavas,” or “This cannot be done in Kaliyuga,” or “This is mäyä.” They will follow all these self-help gurus but will refuse to look into the vast material knowledge that Kåñëa gives us in the Vedic sciences and arts. They will say, “No!” This is due to a lack of faith in Vedic society, a lack of faith in our culture, and ultimately a lack of faith in relationships. They do not actually trust people. These are the real obstacles, not the lack of money or training—no, not at all. You already have leaders; you already have brähmaëa, kñatriya, and vaiçya. Vaiçyas can make money, more than one can ever dream of, and the kñatriyas can organize them. The brähmaëas can study and learn and can teach what they learn. That is not the problem. Within a few years you can get everything straight, if you just accept varëäçrama. The problem is convincing people that this is what will work, and giving them faith in this culture. Sadly, it is not just traditional varëäçrama that is avoided, but basic human interactions as well—which is why one becomes so strongly impersonal. Therefore Çréla Prabhupäda’s praëämamantra says nirviçeña-çünyavädi. Why not something else? Because impersonalism and voidism is what is infesting the West. That is the problem, not that “the Vedic thing is too weird.” Do you know Readers’ Digest? It is a very famous family magazine. Practically all older ladies and common men read it. You cannot have a magazine of a more mainstream nature—middle of the road—and they have articles on the Dalai Lama! They have articles on Indian culture and religion, and people are interested. But devotees reject their own devotional culture or are afraid to live accordingly. They have faith in the philosophy but not the culture. If you go out in traditional clothes and walk around the world, they will think that you are a Buddhist (except for New York City, London, or India; they will not know who you are). I was in the Miami airport, which is relatively near to our biggest community in the world , and people had never heard about Hare Kåñëa. They did not know us at all—nothing! And if we drive around and go to petrol stations or malls, somebody will ask, “Who are you guys? Are you

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some kind of Buddhists?” Anywhere we go, we are Buddhists. Because the Dalai Lama—when he goes for a program, he goes with his shaven head and his robe. Every Buddhist monk on the planet does so, so people know what is a Buddhist. But the Hare Kåñëas—where can you find one? They hardly wear dhoti in the temple, let alone out on the street. So how are the people supposed to know what Hare Kåñëa is? Before, everybody knew what Hare Kåñëa was. Now nobody knows, because of this modern mentality of trying to “fit in.”

I know plenty of devotees who could do brahminical service, but they cannot take it up because there is no money for that. How many of our temple presidents think of training the kids and devotees in bhakti-çästré and subjects like that? The opportunity for education is often confined to be a reward: “If you do big, and do this and that, we will send you to Våndävana or Mäyäpur to do bhaktiçästré.” It is a reward. In the best cases, they may send one person, so that he can try to train others when he comes back. But they do not encourage the temple devotees in general to go; neither do they prioritize setting up these courses nicely in their own premises. So where is the education? We should train everybody. I remember an incident that happened when I was a new bhakta. I was reading the Nectar of Devotion in the temple, and my temple commander told me, “What are you doing? This is nonsense. The book says to do service, so why are you reading? Do some service.” Other devotees, when they were complaining that they had no time to read at all, were told by a temple president that they should have done all their reading before joining the temple—“You are not here to read, but to do some service.” But what did Srila Prabhupäda say? “The only complaint that I have about my disciples is that they do not read my books.” He wanted every single temple to become an educational institution. In general, saìkértana devotees go out at ten in the morning and come back at six in the evening—eight hours for saìkértana. One of the few presidents who values education understood that the saìkértana devotees spent too little time reading. So he decided that every day from ten to twelve all the saìkértana devotees will read. Saìkértana was consequently reduced to six hours a day—which meant two hours less. What was the result? They distributed more books in six hours than they did in eight because their convinction and Kåñëa consciousness had increased. That takes leadership! If education is supported, people will naturally come forward and develop various programs. I know one person who was a great expert in writing children’s books. He wanted to write many such books, but there was no support. So now he just fends for his family, because that is the only thing he can do. No one is supporting him. Consequently, our kids have to read karmé literatures because there is nothing else to read. In the last thirty years we could have produced tons of devotional books for children, if some support were available. The proof of what I say is Gopéparanadhana Prabhu: He was sitting alone in Våndävana, writing for the benefit of the BBT. There was

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So this lack of faith, this impersonalism, this lack of trust in personal relationship, and this false ego stop us, and we remain devoid of culture and inept in our dealing with the material energy. We reject the Lord’s culture, and uncultured men think that simply on the grounds of biological gender alone, women should automatically follow and obey them. The problem in our society is men who are not really men and behave like women. I guarantee that most men do not have any real answers to this point, and that they will just get very, very agitated if you bring this up—just like any woman does if you poke her false ego. 5. What are the remedies for rectifying our shortcomings in education? Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: In the world, why is modern education so popular? Is there a lot of modern education going on in Ethiopia, Somalia, or Papua New Guinea? No. Why? No money. Modern education basically comes from Europe, England, America, and Australia. Why? Because these governments usually allot their second biggest budget, after national defense, to education. How much money does ISKCON put on education? Very simple: basically nothing. Harikeça Prabhu invested hundreds of thousands of dollars and was trying to make education happen. But other than him, who has ever done this? I can hardly think of anyone. Furthermore, who preaches that education is important? Hardly anybody. Every single educational institution in ISKCON is struggling for money, because nobody cares about education. In India, people give a lot of money. And, ironically, why do they give donations so easily? Because they still follow, to some degree, this varëäçrama culture that our society is so afraid of. Many temples in the West survive because of the Indians, because of remnants of varëäçrama. Because of this culture, Indians are successful all around the globe. In fact, it is just a matter of time before they will take over the world.

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no scope for expansion—until one devotee, who thought that Sanskrit education was important, gave money to start a BBT school. Now Gopéparanadhana Prabhu trains several devotees in Sanskrit, translation, and philosophy. Things will expand for the BBT. Many serious students can now learn because this devotee supports the efforts of a genuine brähmaëa. This is what is needed.

do have no longer work on these farms because the managers of them do not understand farming and do not bother to consult qualified vaiçyas in farming matters. This is opposed to varëäçrama principles, because a good leader should consult, when having to decide on a specific matter, experts in that field of work. ISKCON was established in the cities mainly, and at the moment the great majority of the people we are working with are from the cities. If we maintain that varëäçrama can only be established in a rural setting, then no effort whatsoever will be put for scientifically applying varëäçrama principles and organizing whatever we may have in the cities. It is true that the ideal form of varëäçrama is based on the land and cows, but my point is that we are dealing with city people. Therefore, establish varëäçrama for those who are in the city, and then from there, encourage and support the vaiçyas who have the know-how to work on the farms—without interference. Nanda Mahäräja was the king of Våndävana. What was he? A vaiçya. So that is the nature of the vaiçya; he is out on a farm and manages the agriculture. A qualified vaiçya will turn a profit from the land—no stickers needed. If you go around the world, we have fabulous temples with three altars, marble, etc., but how many devotees? Maybe there are a few devotees living in the temple, and hundreds living outside. And basically those living outside do not do much in the temple—if anything at all—and the temple president complains, “Oh, they are not sincere.” There is no sense of direction, and the devotees do not trust the leadership. Now if you take a very successful temple, like Chowpatty, things are different. Why? Because they apply many of the principles of varëäçrama right there in Mumbai, the worst city you can imagine. There is respect, authority, discipline, cooperation, family values, etc. These are all principles of varëäçrama; therefore they are successful. There is a true sense of community, of belonging. A big impediment is that many interested in varëäçrama say that only the agrarian-based approach will work. But economics is economics. Ultimately it goes back to natural resources, but people still deal with money because it is money; it does not matter to them where it came from. The point is that money is money, and it works according to the eternal laws of economics laid down by the Lord. But the ideal approach is of course agrarian based, based on cottage industry, etc. But if this is not immediately available, you deal with what you have and apply the culture there the best you can. If you

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7. Can varëäçrama communities be established in our present, modern society? Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: Of course it can! But you have to know what varëäçrama is. If some devotees, despite the mud and inconveniences, live out in the field, have some cows, and grow some grains, that is most encouraging. But if no one has a clear scriptural understanding of what varëäçrama is, then you will not be able to establish it. Many devotees who try for varëäçrama have this misconception that varëäçrama simply means farming, that farming equals varëäçrama. No. Farming is an important part of varëäçrama, but varëäçrama has a much greater scope than just farming or village life. Is Hastinäpura a village? It is a city. What about Indraprastha or Dvärakä? These are cities. Have you ever heard of any agricultural fields inside Dvärakä? No. You hear of beautiful ponds, trees, swans, and gardens, but not of agriculture. The vegetables came from outside. So that means you had millions—even billions—of people in that city, and a lot of them were working in trade and banking. Was that varëäçrama or not? The Kåñëa book mentions that Dväräka is laid out into four parts—one each for the brähmaëas, kñatriyas, vaiçyas, and çüdras. Many think that varëäçrama necessarily means village, but you had complex cities in Vedic times. But those Vedic cities existed to serve the villages, as opposed to today’s situation where the villages are made to serve the cities. It has reversed. For vaiçyas, the most recommended occupation is farming and cow protection. When the cows were created, vaiçyas were also created to take care of them. Just like when civilization was created, the kñatriyas were created to manage it; when the Vedas were manifested, the brähmaëas were created to study and teach them to others. Now we are trying to build some villages, but our farms around the world generally do not have real farmers; practically all devotees there are city people. And they are running the farm not by farming but by selling stickers or doing odd jobs. Often somebody is collecting and the money comes into the community. The few farmers that we

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have a businessman who runs a factory manufacturing nuts and bolts, he is a vaiçya, although he may not be the ideal vaiçya. He is making good profit and should give in charity; there are still duties that apply. The four groups are there in any city, and their interactions can be organized scientifically according to varëäçrama if one knows the science. We do not have to wait for the ideal situation to apply varëäçrama; we can start right away. Varëäçrama is made by God, so it applies at all time, in all places, and in all circumstances. By going ahead in this way in the cities, the ideal rural situation will manifest also. The Chowpatty temple has a budding rural community, and that farm already has a gurukula—because there is support, because the devotees were made to value the culture right there in the city. The conclusion is that those ready for the austerity of setting up villages can go ahead, while those in the cities can be educated in the social system and be elevated by brahminical guidance. As I said, most of our devotees are in the cities. All we need is education.

only to marry a new girl after some time, he lacks realization. He only went around in a circle, back to square one—only now he is older. When a devotee contemplates how to deal with his attachments, realization is the consideration. The same attitude seen toward the details of varëäçrama is also seen toward varëäçrama as a whole: “Varëäçrama is mäyä—material, unnecessary. Let us drop it.” But who is qualified to drop it? Who has sufficient realization? We are not like Haridäsa Öhäkura, who could chant day in and day out. Our process is not to reject the material energy, but to use it in Kåñëa’s service. Our immature concepts of renunciation in ISKCON create cultural and devotional havocs. The jïäné is intelligent but does not accomplish anything, and the karmé is very active but does not have knowledge of matter and spirit. The devotee is willing to work with anything, without attachment, for the benefit of Kåñëa. But this overlap, that “I am going to work like a karmé with the knowledge of a jïäné, but without desire for the fruitive results of karma and without interest in liberation” is not clearly understood. It is seemingly a contradictory point. That is why it is not easily understandable. But let us examine something here: God, who is everything and the controller of everything, is submissive to Mother Yaçodä. He is also carrying Nanda Bäbä’s shoes on his head. When Rädhäräëé is angry at Him and ignores Him, Kåñëa is feeling sad. He begs whether somebody can help make Rädhäräëé favorable toward Him again. Are these not contradictions? They are. But Kåñëa is like that. He is everything, and everything goes back to Him. All details that are contradictory find their reconciliation in Kåñëa. Another reason why people cannot relate to varëäçrama is that they view it as a rigid set of rules and details, instead of a dynamic set of universal principles. The rules and details are simply manifestations of the principles. A kñatriya simply protects; he can do that anywhere. Yudhiñöhira said, “Give us five villages—that is good enough for us.” They knew how to apply varëäçrama anywhere. Because the externals are always different and variegated, we can become confused. We fail to see the Vedic principles needed to operate a peculiar situation, because we think only in terms of details and rules. Due to this lack of vision, we cannot apply varëäçrama. “Everybody is wearing a suit instead of a dhoti, so I cannot follow varëäçrama.” No. Varëäçrama teaches that you dress appropriately, according to the situation, like a gentleman. So if you have a job that requires a three-piece suit, then this is what you wear. But when

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8. Why are the principles of varëäçrama-dharma not so easily understood? Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: Kåñëa says in the Bhagavad-gétä that “You give up all this nonsense and simply surrender unto Me.” Arjuna then says, “I will give up the fight and go to the forest.” But Kåñëa retorts, “No. You go back to the battlefield.” At that point Arjuna becomes confused. We understand karma easily: “I work hard, I get the fruit.” And we do not even need to know why; the fruit tastes good and the money is nice. The jïäné has knowledge but does not work. The knowledge tells him that the fruit has no lasting value, so why would he bother? That is also pretty straightforward. But the intricacy is that our process is buddhi-yoga, which is based on the simultaneous presence of knowledge and work. This is the point that is missed by devotees. Even though we understand clearly that dead matter has nothing to offer on its own, we still work with it, according to the culture, in a spirit of sacrifice, for the benefit of Kåñëa. A typical scenario would be a householder who prematurely leaves the family as soon as he understands that there is no gain for the soul: “That is all mäyä.” This is true. But this understanding on its own is not the complete picture. This is indeed the incomplete understanding of the jïäné. Many devotees fall into this trap. Understanding is not everything; realization is also needed. And realization comes with time and practice. If someone leaves his wife

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you go to the temple, you do not have to wear your suit. When you sit at home, it is a different thing; and so on. This is the principle. Varëäçrama is so far beyond the concepts that devotees have about it. They just see a body of rules and regulations. It is so far beyond that! Varëäçrama is God interacting with His creation; it is the culture by which God interacts with His devotees. That is what varëäçrama is. In the spiritual world, the culture is done spontaneously. Here we have to start from vaidhé. When it comes down here, the cultural codes are documented in the Manu-saàhitä and other literatures, because people do not know. Varëäçrama is God’s social system of rasa—how He interacts with the devotees, and the devotees with other devotees. That is another reason why devotees cannot understand varëäçrama; they cannot connect the two, the eternal culture of the spiritual world and the prescribed duties for this world.

When a boy loves a girl and wants to show his affection, he typically gives her flowers. Now, are the flowers themselves the affection? Or are the flowers rather a medium to express that affection? They are a medium only, but you use that medium to express this kind of affection. It is the affection that counts, but flowers are a befitting medium. This is dharma. Ladies like flowers, and you can communicate with them through flowers. All over the world there are flourishing flowers businesses. Is it because men like flowers? No. Similarly, varëäçrama is the perfect medium through which you can express human relationship, but the external form of varëäçrama is not actually the important element. Having the proper mood, and using the appropriate form to express that mood, is the essence of varëäçrama. The rules simply depict what are the best forms whereby you can express that mood in various given circumstances, just as the flowers best express romance. This is a big impediment in our application of varëäçrama: we tend to think that it is all about the flowers, rather than about generating the mood and understanding we wish to express through those flowers, which are just the medium of expression. The mother expresses her love to her child through food. The food, on its own, is not everything; it is meant to carry the mood. If the mother would say, “Your lunch is in the fridge, so you can heat it in the microwave because I am going out with my friends,” would the child think, “Oh, my mother loves me so much!”? But the food is a medium through which the mother naturally expresses her love for the child, and the child consequently will reciprocate that love. So the whole point of varëäçrama is to establish the natural medium of expression for the natural relationships between the different members of human society. It provides the means for those interested in elevating themselves by the four human pursuits—dharma, artha, käma, and mokña. But its ultimate purpose is to support the best use of human life, the practice of Kåñëa consciousness.

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Bhagératha Däsa: Referring to the Manu-saàhitä, can we apply all the rules and regulation in the present age? Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: If you know what you are doing, yes; if you do not, then no. “Oh, can we cut off fingers and hands?” This is often the only thing people will remember about the Manusaàhitä. What is more important, the detail of a rule or the principle of varëäçrama it represents? When her child gets out of hand, the responsible mother will correct him. Is that a problem? For the benefit of her child, for his protection and social education, and to insure that other people are respected, she corrects him strongly if needed. Similarly, the saintly king will correct criminals for their own sake and, by the same act, ensure that other citizens are protected in the future. The king and the mother are essentially in the same mood. This is the principle depicted in the Manu-saàhitä. It takes intelligence to see the principles at play. I was quoting Manu when I said, “The brähmaëa is teaching and studying, the kñatriya is protecting, the vaiçya is making money and giving charity, and the çüdra serves without resentment.” This single verse, given by Manu himself, sums up the whole Manu-saàhitä. The kñatriya is a noble man who protects, not just someone who knows martial arts and gets angry very easily. That would be a çüdra. The foot soldiers on the Battlefield of Kurukñetra, who numbered in tens of thousands, were çüdras. The general point is that varëäçrama is far beyond what the devotees are presently discussing. It is an understanding, not just a body of rules.

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9. Why did Çréla Prabhupäda instruct, “First varëa, then äçrama”? Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: Varëa is the basis for deciding which äçrama is suitable. A çüdra is automatically a gåhastha; a brähmaëa can be a brahmacäré or a sannyäsé. In dealing with varëäçrama, one has to keep in mind that the äçrama is the spiritual culture and that the varëa is the economic or social culture; so the äçrama is more important. But when you decide in which äçrama one should be,



you must consider the varëa to know the options; hence you must know the varëa first. For instance, going to gurukula will work for boys who are from a brähmaëa, kñatriya, or vaiçya nature. If they are serious devotees, even if they are çüdras by conditioned nature, they could attend gurukula because some brahminical qualities will be there. In the gurukula, those kids generally will learn the culture and how their art connects to the Lord, but they might not learn a wide range of knowledge, might not stay as long, and will most likely learn their art in detail somewhere else. Also, by knowing the varëa we can know whether a brahmacäré should get married or not. If he has brahminical tendencies, then he does not have to; and we can check and see that. But if you know he is of a kñatriya, vaiçya, or çüdra nature, and he is wondering whether he should get married or not, then you recommend that he does. If he is brahminical and has strong realizations and simple needs, he can remain a brahmacäré until sannyäsa.

character. Plus, the gurukula will teach you what to use your material knowledge for.

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Bhagératha Däsa: You mentioned that the çüdras must be gåhasthas. So do they also get brahmacäré training? Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: As devotees, they can. But for the nondevotees, it will be difficult. 10. What is the relationship between varëäçrama and education? Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: Education is the environment in which you learn the philosophy and culture of someone who practices varëäçrama. It is a training field for society. Civilization endures by training its next generation. In this way, responsibilities are passed on and human life continues. Education is the small world wherein you learn everything you need to know to live outside in the big world, to function in society. In varëäçrama, the emphasis of education is always on forming the character of the student; skills are secondary. In modern education they will only teach you some skills. Even if you learn a skill, like operating computers, it will not guarantee that you will be succesful in the world—but having good character most likely will. Are you going to accomplish anything substantial with a fully materially literate man who is just a polished animal? Where is his service attitude, his respect for authorities, his understanding of responsibility, or his ability to work with others? And all of that is way more important, even materially speaking, to an individual than that so-called “higher-education.” No karmé school teaches

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11. Please elaborate the concepts of sambandha-jïäna, abhideya, and prayojana in relation to varëäçrama and education, respectively. Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: Sambandha in varëäçrama means identifying the various stations of human beings according to their guëas and karma, knowing what functions these various stations ideally perform in society and what the natural harmonious interactions between the types are—for example, what is the ideal interaction between a brähmaëa and a kñatriya. Abhideya will be how they practically relate, what will be the interaction. Prayojana is the result people get from proper association. In education, sambandha is the interconnection between the student, the teacher, and the body of knowledge—knowing what they are, how they relate with each other, and what each one does in that relationship. The abhideya will be how they actually interact and how knowledge will be transferred. Prayojana ends with the educated student. 12. The concept of compulsory education, whereby children are compelled to attend school until a certain age or a certain level, is being extensively promoted in modern education. Would you comment on its merits and demerits? Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: Education in the Vedic culture is for everybody, but what is taught varies according to the child. It is compulsory that you learn something, but the culture is flexible and sensitive, as for the subject and method. In modern education you must learn some language, some math, some geography, some history, etc. A weakness is that those without academic abilities are still obliged to study a lot of academics. If a child does not have an ability in academics, better to teach him some skill. So in the modern system they should make provisions for those who do not want academics, and provide learning alternatives to them. What will they do simply with academics? They do not know what they should do in any respect. They do not know the philosophy of Kåñëa consciousness, the culture, their specific occupational duty, nor how to maintain themselves in society without being exploited.



It is fundamental to teach children that no matter what one does, one needs to work hard, and that only with focus and endeavor can one get anywhere. That is the role of sambandha; it gives the right perspective. It creates focus, reveals your identity, establishes your purpose, your relationship to the world, and what you will gain from that. Then there must be endeavor. Nothing will happen if you do nothing. Then for the result, you have to depend upon the Supreme. If you are not a devotee, the result will be according to your karma; if you are a devotee, Kåñëa consciousness is your fruit. That is the foundation of knowledge.

That is the difference between traditional and modern. The modern approach is guesswork, just going back and forth, wavering between this and that. The materialistic mind cannot reconcile two seemingly contradicting points. Just like in devotional service: do we perform activities according to the culture or ritual? Yes. That is called karma, activity. In Kåñëa consciousness, do we use our intelligence and try to understand the world? Yes. That is called jïäna, knowledge. So karma and jïäna are natural parts of the devotional process. But the materialists will argue karma against jïäna, and vice versa. The karmé will say that only with involvement can you get a result; the jïäné will retort that the result has no value, so why get involved? Like this it wavers. In such a perspective, one has to be right and the other wrong. The understanding of Vedänta is that on their own, both are wrong, but combined and balanced in Kåñëa consciousness both are appropriate. We serve Kåñëa with activity, karma, and knowledge, jïäna. So there is a gulf of difference between traditional and modern. Modern education makes you a karmé or a jïäné, and Vedänta makes you a buddhi-yogé, who works with both karma and jïäna for the benefit of the Lord. In Vedic education, finding the balance of karma and jïäna depends on the nature of the student. Those who need more karma do more karma, and for the intellectuals you give more jïäna. In formal education, the relationship with the teacher is formal. In the gurukula system, although the relationship is informal the student maintains proper etiquette. In the house environment the student cannot learn very much; because the environment itself is informal, the student does not take his parents seriously and they do not take him seriously. But in the school there is mutual respect; there is an environment of education. So the Vedic system is formal but at the same time informal. Here again, the Vedic culture navigates easily between two seemingly contradicting points. You could be sitting under a tree—which you would not usually call formal—or the teacher instructs the student to wash their clothes, which is also informal, but they still maintain the etiquette at all time, which is formal.

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13. Please briefly outline the differences between what is called “traditional education” and what is called “modern education,” and also define “formal,” “informal,” and “non-formal” education. Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: Traditional means that it is based upon the Vedas and the teaching methods used by the previous äcäryas. Modern means it is speculative, like the eternal discussion between Christian theologians: “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?” Similarly, modern academicians speculate endlessly on the methods of education—like arguing if the knowledge is put in or drawn out. Sometimes they try to put it in, and sometimes to draw it out. Either method will work here and fail there. The Vedic system is to first put in knowledge and then draw out understanding, practice, and realization. Unless you put something in, how are you going to draw it out? It is like a glass—we must first pour some liquid into the glass if we want to pour something out of it. Can we pour out liquid from an empty glass? No. But that analogy is only partial, because the soul has inherent knowledge. Therefore, what you put in is small compared to what you can draw out. Sat-cit is knowledge, and God reveals. Kåñëa is in the heart. For example, if you want to draw out from a child the writing skills, you first have to teach him the alphabet, the words, the spelling, and the handwriting; then you can draw out the inherent ability of a human being to express himself in writing. First you must put something in; otherwise how will you draw something out? First you have to put in the concepts—what the field is, what the elements of the field are, what the relationships between those elements are, etc. Once he grasps the field and what results he can get from it, then you start drawing out his potential. So in the Vedic system, the two methods are perfectly synthesized.

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14. What would you say is the main pitfall of modern education? Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: Modern education is not connected to Kåñëa. The knowledge they have is in no way connected to the Vedic tradition and is speculative. The main reasons for its downfall are



its lack of connection to God and its promoting the mood of “I am the controller and enjoyer.” This education results in fear, jealousy, envy, and attachment.

the weaknesses of a situation. Men who do not want to control their senses and do not want to be sensitive are barbarians. They will be destructive in nature and will abuse the women. That is what will happen without training. So, to educate a young man we must first make him sense-controlled and sensitive—a brahmacäré. So the brahmacäré is the standard student. And the sincere student will become a good teacher, if he has the natural propensity to teach— that is to say, if he is brahminical by nature and training.

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15. What are the pillars of education? Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: Basically to have a good student and a good teacher. 16. What are the prerequisites for being a qualified teacher or qualified student? Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: A qualified teacher is someone that was—and always remains—a qualified student. A qualified teacher has acquired knowledge by hearing from a qualified authority as a student. The principle is tad viddhi praëipätena paripraçnena sevayä. This is done in three phases—çravaëa, manana, and nididhyäsana— as explained earlier. If you want to know, you must hear from a proper source; only in this way will you get sambandha-jïäna. Then the application and contemplation is paripraçna. You inquire submissively because you want to know how something works. When you start applying that knowledge to the field, questions will arise. Using your intelligence in contemplation and application, you see things you could not see before; therefore you have a question, praçna. Humbly asking this question to your authority will churn out more knowledge. That is paripraçna, submissive inquiry. In this process, humility and respect of authority are mandatory. This is an important factor of modern education’s incompetence; students will not contemplate and will not know what to do, for they do not inquire submissively. That proud attitude is futile. Modern teenagers are useless because of this fact; they cannot inquire systematically and submissively. When teenagers are submissive, they advance quickly, because they are so active, dynamic, and intelligent at that age. Like Abhimanyu—how old was he? He was just sixteen when he alone destroyed one quarter of the Kaurava’s army before noon time. Teenagers can do a lot if they stop being proud. But because they now hold so dear their arrogant attitude, they have become useless. Consequently, being submissive, respecting authority, and displaying a nice service attitude are compulsory qualities for a brahmacäré. This is so because of the natural weaknesses found in young boys: they are unclean, disrespectful, lazy, lusty, and proud. In the Vedic culture, the prescribed duties always work to counterbalance

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17. What should constitute the curriculum in education? How much of the curriculum should be from traditional sources, and how much should be from other sources? Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: It depends on your school. The medical schools have their curriculum, and the music schools have theirs. Basically, you can extract everything you need from traditional sources if you know how to do it. And anyway, you can trace back whatever works in modern knowledge to a traditional source. So education is to know the essence of a subject matter and how to teach it. You make the point, you elaborate the point, you clear the doubts on the spot, you give various examples, reconcile opposing points, and give a conclusion that is applicable in real life. This is called the science of presentation, or nyäya. What you apply is called the thesis. It depends on what you want. If you are in a Sanskrit school, why would you need this Western system? You can use the traditional system, which is better and comes from our äcäryas. In our traditional system there are infinite resources on so many topics. Now, if you need to teach computers, then you use a modern source, but you still teach according to the traditional way—what is a computer, what makes it work, and what can you get from it (sambandha, abhideya and prayojana). 18. Is education everyone’s right, or a privilege? Please elaborate. Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: It is everybody’s right. But what they get educated in, that is a privilege. 19. Is the percentage of literacy in a country relevant to evaluate its citizens’ degree of education? Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: It only shows how many people attended their system and are considered educated by modern standards. But the literacy ratio is irrelevant for understanding the citizens’



maturity in self-realization, which is the real fruit of education. Unless somebody knows who he is, he is ignorant. Sanätana Gosvämé knew Sanskrit, Persian, Bengali, etc. He would sit with thirty Sanskrit paëòitas while discussing Bhägavatam. He was also the prime minister of the country. Nawab Hussein was the nawab of Bengal, which included some parts of Orissa and Bangladesh and extended up to Assam. There were nine million people in Bengal. The nawab was so confident in Sanätana Gosvämé’s management that he left his kingdom for him to administrate and went out to war. Sanätana Gosvämé managed all the affairs. He was endowed with such qualities, but still he said, “I do not know who I am. Therefore I am a fool.” Other people, including the academicians, claim that they are educated. But unless you know who you are, what is the meaning of education? Say that I teach you a subject up to a PhD level in ten minutes, through some mystic siddhé, but after half an hour you forget all of it—could you call yourself educated? Now you have this body, and you will lose it—in the next life you start again, crawling and crying—can you maintain that you are educated? No. If you know your identity, the ultimate goal of life, and the means to obtain it, then you are educated. If you do not know who you are, how will you figure out your relationship with anybody else? So how can you say that you are educated? Okay, you can push buttons and get a job, get some money, but what are you going to do with that money? You have plenty of money, but what are you going to do with that money? You are going to raise a family, provide facilities for that family, but if you do not your true nature, how will you interact with your family? How will you get any satisfaction out of that interaction, and how will you progress in God consciousness? In ignorance, you cannot do any of that. Your modern education will give you a job to get money, but unless you are spiritually educated that money will get you nowhere. Therefore, one is not educated in actuality. You can say that he is very learned in a particular topic, but that is not actual knowledge. Unless and until it is connected to God, it will never become knowledge. Any knowledge devoid of God consciousness is avidyä, ignorance. That is the verdict of the scriptures. So, the common person is only mildly ignorant whereas the professor is supremely ignorant. But if he connects his extensive knowledge to God, that professor will be ahead of the common man. That is why he is respected.

20. What steps should devotees take to learn about these two important interrelated concepts of varëäçrama and education?

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Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: Just study Çréla Prabhupäda’s books, discuss them, associate with devotees, and endeavor sincerely. Bhagératha Däsa: Thank you for giving us your time, Mahäräja. This has been very interesting. Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Swami: Jaya Çréla Prabhupäda!

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Chapter 3 Lecture by His Holiness Bhakti Vikäça Swami Våndävana, India, August 2007

“Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura has sung one song, jaòa-vidyä jato, mäyära vaibhava. This material education without God consciousness is expansion of the influence of mäyä. Jaòa-vidyä jato, mäyära vaibhava, tomära bhajane bädhä. They are simply impediments in the matter of advancing Kåñëa consciousness. Tomära bhajane bädhä. Anitya saàsäre. And why? Now, result of godless material education means that anitya saàsäre moha janamiyä. We are already illusioned. Anyone who has come to this material world, he is illusioned. But advancement of so-called material education means the increasing of the same illusory propaganda. Jaòa-vidyä jato, mäyära vaibhava, tomära bhajane bädhä, anitya saàsäre moha janamiyä. They are trying to become happy in this temporary material life. He has forgotten that he is eternal. Even if we become very happy, temporary life in this life, that will also illusion because we will not be allowed to stay and enjoy the status. But they do not understand.” (Lecture on Çrémad-Bhägavatam 3.25.25—Bombay, November 1974)

Note: His Holiness Bhakti Vikäça Swami preferred to address the topics of the questionnaire by giving a relevant lecture that covers the questions. Bhakti Vikäça Swami: Varnäçrama-dharma and education are two related, but different, topics. As a sannyäsi, who is supposed to be the head, or the spiritual master, of all the social statuses and orders that constitute varnäçrama, it is my duty to understand what education is and to educate others, so I shall attempt to give good guidance. Practice and precept are both important in education. “Precept” means to give instruction, and here “practice” means to teach others by personal example, by personally acting in an exemplary way. There is a saying in English: “Practice is better than precept.” Caitanya Mahäprabhu taught by his personal example that pure devotional service is the ultimate goal of education. Generally when we think of education, by default we think in terms of formal education. For instance, attending the Çrémad-Bhägavata Vidyäpéöham 4 is considered education—going to school. But education should be continuous, and should guide a person to progress in all circumstances. Education is neither restricted to classrooms nor to a certain period of life. Of course, there is a period of life in Vedic culture more specifically designated for studies. Education begins from childhood: kaumära äcaret präjïo dharmän bhägavatän iha durlabhaà mänuñaà janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam “One who is sufficiently intelligent should use the human form of body from the very beginning of life—in other words, from the tender age of childhood—to practice the activities of devotional service, giving up all other engagements. The human body is most rarely achieved, and, although temporary like other bodies, it is meaningful because in human life one can perform devotional service. Even a slight amount of sincere devotional service can give one complete perfection.” (SB 7.6.1) 4. A school run by the BBT in Govardhana to train devotees in Vedänta and Sanskrit.


Bhakti Vikäça Swami

Knowledge uncovers the nature of things. The first immediate guru is the mother. She teaches preliminaries. She instructs, “Do not put your hand to your mouth except when you eat,” or “Brush your teeth,” etc. The formal guru, the spiritual master, is not meant for teaching these basics. In the modern age, neither the mother nor the so-called guru teaches these. They themselves are ignorant. So where is education? I am well aware of the great need to develop real education, and I am most concerned about it. That is why some of my disciples come here, because in the Våndävana area, especially at the Çrémad-Bhägavata Vidyäpéöham, real education can be found. There also is a pressing need to establish varëäçrama communities. Çréla Prabhupäda spoke so many times, both formally and informally, about varëäçrama. Even before coming to the West, Çréla Prabhupäda wrote extensively about his vision for varëäçrama, and practically up to his last moment in this world he continued to preach about it. 5 I feel that many of the problems we face in ISKCON are due to neglecting the remaining fifty percent of the mission that Çréla Prabhupäda envisioned—to establish varëäçrama-dharma. When we have apprehensions about the possibility of varëäçrama today, let us remember and consider what Çréla Prabhupäda himself did. It seemed impossible to market bhägavata-dharma, Kåñëa consciousness, in America—yet he succeeded. He firmly established Kåñëa consciousness in the Western countries. The remaining piece, making varëäçrama communities, will complete his revolution. Without varëäçrama, we are bound to follow modern cultures. I often discuss this point with young gåhasthas in relation to their future—what should they do now that they are married? We live in a confused society, a society without clear structure or direction. The prevalent emphasis on individualism leaves little scope for shelter or guidance. In a traditionally structured society, one has a fixed social position; and there is no need to adjust it. For instance, the social position of a blacksmith’s son determines his education. He learns how to make the horseshoes that are required in a community that utilizes horses. That specialized individual offers an essential contribution to the society. It is not possible that everyone

be competent at everything. A properly educated citizen—educated according to his role and level of competence—is a great asset. In modern society, no one knows the purpose of life and everyone behaves foolishly. An important principle in Kåñëa consciousness is asat-saìgatyäga, giving up bad association. Gåhasthas need land, gåha (house), and children, all of which require economic activity. Due to the lack of good economic alternatives, devotees nowadays are often forced to live in bad association, outside a Kåñëa conscious community. Due to asat-saìga, they tend to imbibe materialistic values, which of course are highly detrimental to spiritual life. Kåñëa consciousness is based on guru, sädhu, and çästra. We must accept the ideals given by sädhu association, because people in general do not know the goal of life. They think the goal to be “Eat, sleep, drink, and be merry.” They have no understanding of dharma.

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5. In one of Çréla Prabhupäda’s last purports (SB 10.13.5), dictated as he lay on his bed in Våndävana shortly before his passing, he stated: “Varëäçrama-dharma, therefore, is essential, for it can bring people to sattva-guëa. Tadä rajas-tamo-bhäväù käma-lobhädayaç ca ye (SB 1.2.19). Tamo-guëa and rajo-guëa increase lust and greed, which implicate a living entity in such a way that he must exist in this material world in many, many forms. That is very dangerous. One should therefore be brought to sattva-guëa by the establishment of varëäçrama-dharma, and should develop the brahminical qualifications of being very neat and clean, rising early in the morning, and seeing maìgala-ärätrika, and so on.”

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dharmasya hy äpavargyasya närtho ’rthäyopakalpate närthasya dharmaikäntasya kämo läbhäya hi småtaù “All occupational engagements are certainly meant for ultimate liberation. They should never be performed for material gain. Furthermore, according to sages, one who is engaged in the ultimate occupational service should never use material gain to cultivate sense gratification.” (SB 1.2.9) Civilized human life begins with pursuit of dharma, artha, käma, and mokña. Many think that by following dharma, their purposes will be fulfilled and they will get artha, käma, and mokña. But dharma is not actually meant for fulfilling those goals. One should live simply and inquire about the absolute truth. To be obsessed with acquiring money is the result of bad association. Simply out of common sense, we should strive for these varëäçrama communities. One important advantage of such communities would be the possibility for devotees to remain constantly in good association and abide by our own culture; they would live according to the ideals given by guru, sädhu, and çästra. Without varëäçrama communities, we are forced to live according to ideals set by nondevotees. Therefore I maintain that the gurus of ISKCON (and actually, all devotees are supposed to be gurus) should emphasize by practice and precept the importance of daivavarëäçrama. By showing a good example of varëäçrama they would fulfill the desire of Çréla Prabhupäda. If the first generation of



followers of Çréla Prabhupäda has not done much to further the varëäçrama mission, let the next generation come forward. Varëäçrama communities are the natural approach to solving ISKCON’s myriad social problems—for instance, divorce, which is far too common. Even one case is too many. I am concerned that many devotees who are trying to address such problems will ultimately compound them, because the reformers’ approach is according to the standards and expectations of modern society, and their understanding of husband-wife interactions is based on modern psychology. To deviate from the Vedic angle, in any sphere of education, is the root cause of every problem. It is the solemn duty of devotees to base education, lifestyle—everything—on dharma, as described by çästra and tradition. Unfortunately, while speaking learned words, devotees often do not know what they are talking about, for they ditto the theories of deluded persons rather than faithfully repeat çästra. Regarding marital relationships, Çréla Prabhupäda often emphasized that the wife should be submissive to her husband and the husband should be a first-class devotee. That is the model to strive for. Devotees stress the need for mutual compatibility in marriage, which of course is a major factor. But even more important is the significance of dharma, duty. “Compatibility” it is a relative term, because basically man and woman are not truly compatible. Devotees should impart education about marital responsibility and should address issues of marital adjustment according to çästric knowledge of the nature of the genders, not according to some psychological mumbo-jumbo derived from Darwinism.

life to the service of Kåñëa through these nine methods should be understood to be the most learned person, for he has acquired complete knowledge.” (SB 7.5.23–24)

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Actual education is described by Çré Prahläda: çravaëaà kértanaà viñëoù smaraëaà päda-sevanam arcanaà vandanaà däsyaà sakhyam ätma-nivedanam iti puàsärpitä viñëau bhaktiç cen nava-lakñaëä kriyeta bhagavaty addhä tan manye ‘dhétam uttamam “Hearing and chanting about the transcendental holy name, form, qualities, paraphernalia, and pastimes of Lord Viñëu, remembering them, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, offering the Lord respectful worship with sixteen types of paraphernalia, offering prayers to the Lord, becoming His servant, considering the Lord one’s best friend, and surrendering everything unto Him (in other words, serving Him with the body, mind, and words)—these nine processes are accepted as pure devotional service. One who has dedicated his

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This is the best education. Within all cultures of the world, the scientific understanding of dharma is present only in varëäçrama. We have made a grave mistake in our movement, the same as made by the präkåta-sahajiyäs. Because Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu pointed out that varëäçrama is external, many devotees in our movement concluded that we do not need to follow it. However, although varëäçrama is external to the need of the purified soul, that does not invalidate the necessity of varëäçrama for regulating the lives of those who aspire for perfection yet are still influenced by material desire. Varëäçrama is required to create a favorable condition for the spiritual progress of the conditioned soul. Hence, Çréla Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura wanted to establish the importance of varëäçrama in Vaiñëava society. Varëäçrama-dharma gives specific rules and regulations for humans in this world so that we will not live like animals. Regulated life is required for advancement, both in basic human and spiritual culture. There are many activities required for living as a civilized person in this world—civilized according to the Vedic understanding. These include rising early, taking bath, paying respect to seniors, worshiping cows, and working according to one’s varëa and äçrama. These are followed by all sections of Vedic society, including Vaiñëavas, Mäyävädés, and others. Of course, for the Mäyävädés there is no question of actual bhakti. But Çréla Prabhupäda explained that up to the point of liberation, the philosophy of the Mäyävädés and the devotees is the same; only beyond mukti is there an important difference. The culture is practically the same, but the Mäyävädés’ understanding is wrong. Varëäçrama is the standard of life for a human being, and if followed it is very conducive for sädhana-bhakti. For the sädhaka in bhakti, many rules have been mentioned by Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu in his teachings to Sanätana Gosvämé, all to be observed in conjunction with the basic usages of varëäçrama society. In ISKCON in the West, due to lack of application of varëäçrama principles, repeated divorce has come to be accepted; and even basic etiquette is unknown. For instance, devotees will put their fingers in their mouth and then turn the pages of Çrémad-Bhägavatam, not even knowing that this is an offense. Basic varëäçrama culture—which until recent times in India almost everyone, including non-Hindus,



grew up with—is part of bhakti. Lord Caitanya said that all these rules are external to the essence of bhakti. But as the ideal äcärya, He Himself personally followed them. Lord Caitanya Himself took sannyäsa and observed the rules of that äçrama very strictly. Pure devotional service, or bhakti, is above varëäçrama, but acting below the rules and regulations of varëäçrama will not help one become an advanced devotee. Everyone should follow the general dharma. In accord with the express desires of Çréla Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura, Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura, and our own Çréla Prabhupäda, we, as their followers, have the solemn mandate to reintroduce genuine varëäçrama—first within our own community, our own occupational system, our own culture. Çréla Prabhupäda once said that his disciples are too complacent and underestimate mäyä. We delude ourselves into thinking that we can simply merge into mäyä’s society and remain intact as devotees. We think that it doesn’t matter if we intermix in a society governed by mäyä. But it does! Those who closely associate with the outside world imbibe many wrong convictions and habits and do not fully realize how sick the modern society has become. Consequently, they assume the values of a society impelled by käma, krodha, moha and thus make a beeline to hell. Today’s society is a complete mess, and now the culture within ISKCON also has been slaughtered by mundane education. As was stated by all truly insightful scholars of the past, Çréla Prabhupäda also instructed that education is meant to produce character. For that purpose, previously in the West students were taught classic Greek and Latin literature. Teaching ÇrémadBhägavatam is meant for the same purpose. Of course, the concept of high character in Çrémad-Bhägavatam is significantly more developed than in Homer, yet the principle is the same, for good character is foundational to greatness. And without character, it does not matter how much or what you learn. But what is the result of modern education? Çréla Prabhupäda explained that it simply turns people into cats and dogs. Modern education is producing people who are worse than animals, but real education is to learn sense control—just the opposite of what modern education teaches. They teach how to increase sex. Their education is simply to get a certificate for getting a job to get money to get food, shelter, sex, and all such things. People have become full of themselves and proudly say, “I have got this degree.” Modern education teaches one to become, at best, a

çüdra, whereas Vedic education makes one socially independent, like a brähmaëa, because by Vedic knowledge one will not care for luxury or become attached to anything; he will be satisfied with whatever he gains naturally. By virtue of realized knowledge, one will not be a slave of money and rich people. He will possess something far greater—the knowledge that brings detachment from the material world. Modern education binds one to this world and makes people increasingly greedy and lusty, dedicated to sensual enjoyment. However, in truth that is not enjoyment, but suffering. What is the use of an education that leads one astray? It is fascinating to see how modern educational institutions amass so many topics into weird conglomerates of information and include them in a useless variety of studies and courses. Çréla Prabhupäda called it “intellectual animalism,” because the so-called intellectuals do not know the goal of life and live like animals.

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When devotees started the BBT library saìkértana party to sell sets of Çréla Prabhupäda’s books in Western universities, they were thrilled at the prospect of discussing with scholars of philosophy, sociology, etc.; it would be so different than selling books in the street. But the devotees soon experienced that even some famous professors of Indology were having sex with their students. They discuss philosophy but have no culture. Real education teaches respect, but since the advent of modern education, respect has been lost. The principle of modern education is show no respect, and acknowledge no absolute truth. asatyam apratiñöhaà te agad ähur anéçvaram aparaspara-sambhütaà kim anyat käma-haitukam (Bg 16.8) Some so-called intellectuals may study Kåñëa or Kåñëa consciousness in the manner that others study frogs. They may say, “According to the Gauòéya Vaiñëavas, Caitanya Mahäprabhu is an incarnation of Kåñëa.” But they will never say that Çré Caitanya is Kåñëa. They cannot accept that. They may quote, “According to Rüpa Gosvämé, Caitanya Mahäprabhu is the most munificent incarnation” —but that’s it. Everything for them is just “according to.” They do not accept the facts that Çréla Jéva Gosvämé put forth. Çréla Rüpa Gosvämé explained that such intellectuals can never enter or imbibe our philosophy. Of course, some such intellectuals may superficially respect the Vaiñëava äcäryas, but ultimately they see Vaiñëavism as only one among many subjective religious worldviews, one among a variety of philosophies in a multi-cultural world. They want to remain



“objective.” That is the modern fashion. Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura (in the Harmonist magazine) railed against this tendency to drag everything down to the mundane platform. And modernists can never reconcile apparent contradictions. The äcäryas understand from çästras the superior principles that clarify paradoxes. Only according to the limited vision of the mundane mind are the apparent contradictions within çästra perceived as faults. Even the äcäryas from different sampradäyas may seem to contradict one another, but the underlying principles of Vaiñëava understanding are the same. All contradictions are ultimately resolved in Kåñëa consciousness. Vedic education demands surrender to the guru. Only then can one begin to truly learn. The guru should be knowledgeable, well versed in the çästra. And how a disciple should act toward his guru is described in Çrémad-Bhägavatam. Along with his friend Sudämä, Kåñëa (in the Tenth Canto) shows by example how to serve the guru. All aspects of the guru-disciple relationship are portrayed in the scriptures—the case of Indra, who disregards Båhaspati and is rejected; the case of Bali Mahäräja rejecting his guru; and the case of Närada and Vyäsadeva, a guru instructing his sincere disciple. Is it not systematic? The Çrémad-Bhägavatam is not like modern education, wherein one can merely read a textbook and expect to digest it by the mind alone. Vedic knowledge is not like that. It is living knowledge passed down through the intelligence of pure sages to purify one’s own intelligence. Again, that is why sense control is foremost. With character training, one becomes pure in heart. Although mundane scholars may seem to know Gauòéya Vaiñëava philosophy, they have no contact with it because due to impurity they cannot accept surrender to guru or Kåñëa. They do not understand anything, or have only a superficial understanding. On the other hand, someone who may not be very learned develops so much realization by sincerely hearing with a service attitude. Paradoxically, without akñara-jïäna, they gain complete akñara-jïäna. To explain: The former akñara-jïäna refers to knowledge of the Sanskrit alphabet, from a to kña; in the literal sense, it means to know how to read and write. In the poetic sense, the latter aksara-jïäna refers to knowledge of Kåñëa, who is akñara. A is the beginning—Kåñëa; kña is the end, like Kåñëa. Hence, akñara refers to Kåñëa as everything from beginning to end—from a to z. That is complete knowledge. Even without reading or writing, one

will get everything if blessed by the guru. Even without akñara-jïäna, he will be blessed with full akñara-jïäna. That is Vedic education. It is completely different from the modern paradigm.

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In modern education there is no real relationship between the student and teacher. The teacher takes payment; and as soon as payment is involved there cannot be any deep education. There is no genuine relationship involved. Traditional education operates on the basis of love; the teacher teaches out of affection for the students. In karma-käëòa, one must pay his debt to the forefathers by having a son. On the same principle, there are different debts that one must pay. One is the debt to the guru: to impart to others the knowledge that was received. It is a duty, dharma. There is some expectation from any mundane work—dharma rakñati rakñitäù. One performs one’s dharma, and by the system of dharma one is maintained in dharma and thus protected by dharma. Dharma teaches us, and by the very nature of dharma, education automatically continues. The conclusions of modern education are that life is for enjoyment and that one has to fend for himself. Nowadays teaching is a job, and the teacher is not responsible for anyone. The teacher is going this way and the student that way. A complete change is required, and it is a formidable task to make the shift. First we must establish, on the basis of çästra, what education is. The purpose of education is self-realization. That is the ultimate goal. People fabricate so many “new” ideas about education, but their concocted systems cannot be called education as such. Çréla Prabhupäda raised many points that a traditional society would accept as normal and commonsense yet modernists consider regressive. If modern education is so advanced, where is the improved result? They are turning students into sub-animals. What is the use of an education that does not raise one’s consciousness? In the modern world, we lack exemplary role models. We have some vague conceptions regarding intellectuals—modernday intellectuals being mostly perverted—and a corrupted concept of vaiçyas. Modern businessmen are not pious vaiçyas like Nanda Mahäräja. Nor do we find any real çüdras. Lastly, traditional varëäçrama society was led by a king—but where is the king today? We do not even know the meaning of the word kñatriya. I heard some devotees refer to a certain world leader as a kñatriya because he sent troops to Iraq. That is not a guëa of kñatriya, but of a gunda— actually, less than a street gunda, because at least a gunda joins in the fight. There is nothing worthy or noble when a chief executive sits



in a conference room and by telephone sends men (and women!) to war. The Vedic kñatriya leads from the front, not from a safe distance. Modern leaders are by no means kñatriyas. A kñatriya is one who protects from bad elements. Kñatriyas are supposed to protect cows; but instead they slaughter them. Kñatriyas should oversee a fair society wherein women are protected. Instead, modern leaders pretend to give women the sacrosanct “equal opportunity,” with the result that such liberated women freely intermix with philanderers, and then the leaders provide the “right” for abortion. Such rascals have no idea of what it means to protect women and children. They encourage women along a path that leads them to inevitably be exploited. By the way, that India had a woman as prime minister indicates that there are no kñatriyas remaining, for a kñatriya could never tolerate being ruled by a woman. Modern politics is bogus. It generates the corruption that we are witnessing daily. People have no idea what it would be like to have a good king, a worshipable king. In some countries, they still respect the king so much, even though he has no real authority. As for devotees of ISKCON, it is very difficult to press them to follow varëäçrama as long as they contemplate this käma-krodhamoha society and base their lifestyle on it. The two cannot be mixed. Television, potato chips, and modern education do not blend well with strong Kåñëa consciousness. The goal is soon lost if we cultivate the material outlook of a demoniac society. Çréla Prabhupäda spoke very strongly against this modern society, a society that is becoming increasingly complex and degraded. But unfortunately, ISKCON is not in a position to speak so strongly. ISKCON is already forty years old, not so young anymore, yet we have failed to offer any solid alternative. We should not remain frail but should try to rectify the situation. Although it is a big task to establish varëäçrama, we have to show people that it is possible to live in a better manner, that humans do not need factories to be civilized. People think it is necessary to manufacture everything by industries. They are convinced that unless humans work in a factory or office, civilization is not possible. So we must show them. If we have such varëäçrama communities, many people will come forward—especially in the West, where people are looking for a natural alternative. But in India, sadly the talk is all about this modern kind of “progress.” They think it is wonderful to get a job and earn lots of money. Even many devotees think like that. But in the West, even many nondevotees are sick of this modern

world and are hankering for an alternative. If we can show them an effective, working model of a non-exploitive society, many will be attracted. Some devotees in America occasionally preach among various groups and communities who are interested in alternative living. By preaching at neo-hippie festivals, they are able to bring new devotees to the temple. I told some of those preachers that if they make a farm community, they need not go to the hippies—the hippies will come to us. Çréla Prabhupäda said that people will join our farms by the millions. There is so much that can be said about this, but ultimately we need to simply do it. We have a few projects up and running, like the Gaura Våndävana farm in Brazil. The more farm projects we have through which to show an alternative way of living, the more we will be taken seriously. Nowadays many progressive people are looking for an alternative to oil and for independence in energy. During the artificial petrol crisis in 1975, Çréla Prabhupäda said that we can always use bullock carts as a permanent solution. Why do we need to travel five thousand kilometers, or even fifty kilometers, in a day? There is no need. This is the solution to the petrol crisis. Çréla Prabhupäda told his disciples to write books addressing these issues—for instance, “The economic problem: how can it be solved?” Çréla Prabhupäda said that we do not need money, that if we don’t have money we will not have any economic problem. The prime bodily necessities are roti (food), kaparä (clothing), and makän (shelter). In traditional society, money meant gold. But gold also complicates life. Vaiçyas and kñatriyas may need it, but brähmaëas and çüdras do not. Gold can create the possibility of cheating, so what to speak of all of these modern exchanges based on arbitrary principles. Printed paper currencies are an unscrupulous arrangement whereby governments levy heavy taxes and create corruption. All these nuisances are created by artificial governance. Bhagiratha Däsa: Can varëäçrama-dharma be established in modern society? Bhakti Vikäça Swami: Yes and no. Some devotees say that it is not possible to have varëäçrama in modern times, but Çréla Prabhupäda said that it is possible. Can it be established in the present society? No. It has to be established beside or outside it. The present setting is too far gone. To bring forth varëäçrama is the greatest revolution. People have no idea how significant this revolution will be. It is not weak, like communism, capitalism, socialism, humanism, or something of that nature. Those are based on similar mundane principles, the

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essence being to organize society in a way to forget Kåñëa—thus their atheistic educational system. The ideal of utilitarianism is to bring the greatest happiness to the greatest number of individuals; that should be the principle of organizing society. But the deluded people’s idea of happiness is to have opportunity for unrestricted indulgence of the senses. Especially in modern society, the underlying belief is that there should be ever increasing facilities for sense enjoyment. Çréla Prabhupäda gave a clear plan to create an ideal society. He explained that we do not require all these modern facilities like electricity and motorcars but just need to take shelter of the holy name and live from the land. We do not need all these artificial gadgets. Previously, for hundreds and thousands of years, people lived without electricity. To get electricity involves soul-killing ugra-karma and massive overendeavor. Huge pylons must be erected everywhere, so many big holes must be dug, the atmosphere becomes polluted, and then we get to pay the bills. It seems convenient, but it is not. We do not realize how much harm we accept just for the convenience of this little flickering bulb. Çréla Prabhupäda was a tattva-darçé, a seer of the truth. He saw the truth of all these matters and set in motion the greatest revolution to rectify the situation. By his grace, his followers have the knowledge that can, as he said, “save human society in its darkest hour.” To do so, we must first of all have faith in Çréla Prabhupäda’s mandate, and then must arise from our collective sloth to actualize it.

not need to follow the rules and regulations of the gåhastha-äçrama. In fact, a reason why çüdras would not study çästras is because they are less regulated. Following the regulations is a reflection of good consciousness. This is my reply: if one is actually a Vaiñëava, he should be above the rules of varëäçrama, not below them! He must follow at least some basic culture of varëäçrama. But if one does not follow the prescriptions given in çästra, he will follow what is given by Hollywood, Bollywood, or elsewise, because everyone must follow something. Man is a social animal, so he must follow some social norms. If we do not follow the culture given by Kåñëa and the äcäryas, we will follow the culture of a sick society. ISKCON will adopt (or rather, to a large extent has already adopted) the social norms and outlook of culturally decrepit nations like America and Germany, with mundane ideas of equality and the absence of a culture of respect. The principle of guru-bhakti is very difficult for people in Western countries to accept. In England, or America, the book Jesus and Me is popular. They do not like structures of authority. I am afraid that the current system of education in ISKCON—teaching Prabhupada’s books using a system similar to modern education— reflects that same Western mindset and that the outcome could convey the same distorted mood. Instead of studying by using the modern system, why do we not establish Kåñëa’s system? Why do we attach so much significance to a Ph.D.? That is just a certificate, a piece of paper. Upon completing a Vedic education, one does not get a certificate. The “certificate” is the yajïa-upavéta. The student is accepted by the äcärya, he sincerely studies under him, and his certificate is a developed character—äcäryavän puruño veda. Devotee: Çréla Prabhupäda emphasized the importance of varëäçrama and told his disciples to establish it. He told them to guide general society on this matter. But in some other conversations, he said not to consider a Vaiñëava according to bodily conceptions, to never think of a Vaiñëava simply in the framework of varëäçrama: “Don’t think yourself a brähmaëa, kñatriya, etc., but just teach people how to behave properly.” So how do we apply this in a practical way in our varëäçrama communities? Bhakti Vikäça Swami: Çréla Prabhupäda said that the devotee may act as a brähmaëa, kñatriya, or vaiçya to teach others, just like the teacher teaches A-B-C. But we know that all living entities are gopébhartur pada-kamalayor däsa-däsänudäsa. We are not to identify with

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Devotee in the audience: By following devotional service, all good qualities will come. So why do we need to get into this varëäçrama again to train people for proper behavior? Bhakti Vikäça Swami: So do Vaiñëavas not follow the principles of varëäçrama? Certainly they do. One of the good qualities of a devotee is that he follows the injunctions of çastra. Does anyone think that good qualities come due to not following these principles? Not following is not a good symptom. I do not understand why devotees tend to think that if we don’t follow varëäçrama, our bhakti will be better. Varëäçrama is a divine social structure meant to regulate every aspect of human life, so that people may follow the norms given by the Lord and progress spiritually. Many of the rules are meant for health—for example, cleaning the teeth. Taking good care of the teeth is a healthy practice; everyone should do it. One should be a brahmacäré, a gåhastha, a vänaprastha, or a sannyäsi and should follow the relevant social rules and regulations for his äçrama. It is not true that because one is a Vaiñëava gåhastha, he does

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the body, but for the sake of the general population, to show them how to live, we must assume these roles. Çréla Prabhupäda explained this point again and again, yet devotees still ask this same question again and again. Why can’t they catch this simple point?

Everything that Çréla Prabhupäda said was correct because he spoke Bhagavad-gétä as it is. Many of his statements are today “politically incorrect.” We have to choose whether to be followers and representatives of Çréla Prabhupäda and the paramparä or to be politically correct. Unfortunately, much of ISKCON today, including the official education system, has veered toward political correctness. Unless one is willing to accept guru-mukha-padma-väkya cittete kariyä aikya, he will not understand anything. We should try to understand what the äcärya presented to us, not what we think should be presented to us. This cannot make a good disciple. When we do not understand, we should inquire humbly from faithful seniors and try harder. There is a good example for this. In the Bhagavad-gétä (4.1), Kåñëa explains that He spoke the same knowledge to Vivasvän long ago, and that it came down successively to Manu and Ikñväku. Arjuna became confused:

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Administration is sometimes also done by brähmaëas, not only by kñatriyas. Actually, a kñatriya’s administration should be under the counsel of brähmaëas. Even in a simple house there is some system of management. A maöha is managed by brähmaëas. Some vaiçya communities, like that of Nanda Mahäräja, were not directly overseen by a kñatriya but by a vaiçya. So it requires much study, prayer, and realization to understand how to apply varëäçrama in the modern age. Bhakti Vidyä Pürëa Mahäräja has dedicated his life to studying and instituting Vedic education and varëäçrama, so why don’t we learn from him? Once, in Mäyäpur, a teacher in MIHET asked me for advice on this topic, and I told him, “Why ask me? His Holiness Bhakti Vidyäpürëa Mahäräja is here. Go ask him.” Of course, there are certain points in Çréla Prabhupäda’s books that we might find controversial. For instance, in the first chapter of Bhagavad-gétä As It Is, Çréla Prabhupäda states: “Women are generally not very intelligent and therefore not trustworthy.” Unless we examine such topics from the perspective of siddhänta, we will not reach the truth concerning them. What happens in ISKCON education today is that these points are discussed among the students but no conclusive siddhänta is given. Hence, we are actually introducing relativism by the implied reasoning that any opinion is as good as the other. This is not introducing Çréla Prabhupäda’s message as it is, but Mäyäväda philosophy: “Çréla Prabhupäda said this, but I cannot accept it. So I won’t teach it as it is.” Then why study Prabhupada’s books at all? Worse still, why propose to teach them if we do not (or do not want to) explain every point therein? It is the siddhänta that we should understand and accept. Arjuna said: sarvam etad åtaà manye yan mäà vadasi keçava na hi te bhagavan vyaktià vidur devä na dänaväù “O Kåñëa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the demigods nor the demons, O Lord, can understand Your personality.” (Bg 10.14)

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aparaà bhavato janma paraà janma vivasvataù katham etad vijänéyäà tvam ädau proktavän iti Arjuna said: “The sun god, Vivasvän, is senior by birth to You. How am I to understand that in the beginning You instructed this science to him?” (Bg 4.4) Arjuna did not say, “What are you talking about? This is nonsense!” He said, katham etad vijänéyäà: “How will I understand it?” He acknowledged that Kåñëa was much senior in knowledge and therefore understood what Arjuna did not. Arjuna asked Kåñëa to explain what seemed impossible to him, and Kåñëa did. He explained that all of us have had many births, that He remembers them all, but that we do not. So the same thing here: “Well, Prabhupäda made a mistake. Selfsufficiency is not practical. Varëäçrama does not apply; therefore we should not introduce it.” No. We should find out the right way to apply it—that’s all. Undoubtedly, many devotees fear that the introducing of varëäçrama will lead to exploitation, especially of women. And it is true that the caste system in India, which was a perversion of the original varëäçrama setup, was (like any system that does not establish Kåñëa clearly in the center) exploitive, and that naturally the weaker sections suffered the most. It is a great challenge to our devotees to institute varëäçrama without the discrepancies commonly associated with it. But we should not—as



many devotees have done—reject the whole endeavor of instituting varëäçrama. Rather, we should work on getting it right. Another common misconception among devotees is that Çréla Prabhupäda intended to introduce varëäçrama in a wholly new format. This idea is based on the observation that in the beginning of his mission in the West, Çréla Prabhupäda did not introduce all the rules of varëäçrama—for example, men and women were not so strictly segregated. It is true that since most of his early followers were former hippies, Çréla Prabhupäda did not immediately try to impose Vedic culture on them. However, when he noted that many of his disciples were not living up to the standards of Kåñëa consciousness and were even falling down, Çréla Prabhupäda started to emphasize the need to introduce within ISKCON more aspects of varëäçrama-dharma. Consequently, brahmacärés and sannyäsés became much more reserved in their dealings with women—men and women were segregated in the temple, while taking prasäda, and in other places. Some argue that Çréla Prabhupäda did not personally introduce all those regulations, that they were pushed forward by certain sannyäsés with a sexist agenda. But Çréla Prabhupäda was aware of all those changes and did not reverse them, for they were indeed concordant with his teachings. Clearly, Çréla Prabhupäda wanted a culture wherein men and women do not mix like cats and dogs, as in modern society. However, a thorough study of Çréla Prabhupäda’s books clarifies that even before he ventured to America he had written extensively on the need for varëäçrama, that the varëäçrama system he planned to introduce was according to çästric principles, and that therefore the second phase of his movement—the varëäçrama phase—would be dramatically different from the first. 6

Bhakti Vikäça Swami: Yes, he did say that. He also said that the women should be obedient to their husband, and made similar statements according to çästric and traditional lore, all of which were quite opposite to the present zeitgeist. Çréla Prabhupäda openly said to an unsympathetic female feminist reporter that all problems in human society are caused by women’s not being submissive to men. It is a heavy statement. According to modern mythology, men and women should intermix freely, they are equal, and the entire history of human civilization is one of suppression of women. Devotee: In the First Canto, when Parékñit chastises Kali, Çréla Prabhupäda gave a very practical point that needs to be implemented: co-education. 7

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Devotee: I remember one statement by Prabhupäda about the chaos of mixing men and women. 6. Kulädri Däsa: “I was the temple president at New Våndävana for so many years, and Prabhupäda had a vision for a pilgrimage site and farm community in North America. So he never emphasized book distribution to us. He explained to me that—especially at the end, when I was with him in Bombay and in Våndävana, just before he left—that the second half of his movement would be dramatically different than the first half, i.e. the emergency tactics that he used to distribute books and give young people sannyäsa and open as many temples as possible. He wanted places like New Våndävana to establish the culture of Kåñëa consciousness with colleges, gåhastha lifestyle, and all of the things to demonstrate the philosophy that he was so careful to present in his books. So right up to the end he was telling me that the farm communities were so important for the second half, and the vision would be so different than when his movement got started in the Western world.” (From a transcript of Following Çréla Prabhupäda—DVD 10)

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Bhakti Vikäça Swami: I see that to be an intermediate comment. Later on, Çréla Prabhupäda said that he did not want the daughters of his disciples to attend these so-called schools and be polluted. But nowadays who is teaching that? Çréla Prabhupäda said that the girls should mainly learn two things: how to cook nicely and how to be chaste. These are the primary subjects to be taught to young girls, along with a basic education so that they can read our Gauòéya Vaiñëava literature. They should mainly learn how to be good devotees, and their curriculum should be Prabhupäda’s books. Çréla Prabhupäda also taught about women’s education in the context of varëäçrama. When a brahmacäré marries, he becomes the guru of his wife and proceeds to teach her what he learned in the gurukula. The essence of what he knows should be duly taught to his wife. In this way, she also gains the benefit of a higher education even though she did not attend gurukula. A woman should receive her education at home—in youth, from her family members, and after marriage, from her husband. She is naturally meant for “home education.” I have been informed that some devotees explain away my outspoken statements on these touchy subjects as being “just Bhakti Vikäça Swami’s own weird ideas.” But please scrutinize Çréla Prabhupäda’s books and conversations. See for yourself what he is saying. Many devotees do not know these things. Even Çréla Prabhupäda’s simple statement that the daughters of his disciples should not attend school and should be educated at home is unknown 7. This is in the context of instructions to eradicate corruption in a state: “There must be compulsory marriage of young boys and girls attaining twenty-four years of age and sixteen years of age respectively. There is no harm in co-education in the schools and colleges, provided the boys and girls are duly married, and in case there is any intimate connection between a male and female student, they should be married properly without illicit relation.” (SB 1.17.38 purport)

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to most devotees. How many know these things? This is not my craziness. If we want to know, we must learn from Çréla Prabhupäda. Some statements of Çréla Prabhupäda’s were so heavy that we cannot repeat them publicly. Devotee: You mentioned in regard to the petrol crisis, “Don’t use petrol!” Then how are we going to travel from Western countries to Våndävana, for example? Bhakti Vikäça Swami: Keep the plane only for devotees; otherwise it is of no use. Or make Våndävana everywhere; create the same atmosphere. Devotee: Does varëäçrama refers only to farms, or is there something more to it? Bhakti Vikäça Swami: We should have cities also. But the overall economy should be based on agriculture. The city is what in the old European culture was called the “market town.” Villagers bring their crops and handicrafts to the market. They can barter to acquire what they do not produce in their own village. Those cities are similar to what Çréla Prabhupäda envisaged for Mäyäpur city; they have relatively small populations. The whole ambience should be quite different from that of modern mega-cities. Obviously the topic of varëäçrama is vast and requires much research. And not just research—steps must be immediately taken toward practical implementation. I applaud the varëäçrama initiative headed by Çré Bhakti Räghava Swami and others, and urge all devotees to get involved, at least at some level. In this endeavor, we are likely to make many mistakes, as we already have in the past, but we should not become discouraged. Rather, we should learn from our errors and go forward with faith in Çréla Prabhupäda and Kåñëa. Thank you all very much. All glories to Çréla Prabhupäda!

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Chapter 4 Interview of Çréman Ätmatattva Däsa “Every material things deteriorate and it becomes useless at certain length of time. Any machine, any clock... Therefore it has been taken as dress: väsäàsi jérëäni yathä vihäya (Bg. 2.22). So this is going on, but unfortunately modern universities, educational systems, they do not know anything about this. And still, they are very much proud of advancement of education. Actually, there is no education. Without this knowledge, spiritual knowledge, this education for earning bread, eating, sleeping, mating... That can be done without education. The animals, they are not educated—they are not technologists, or they have no education in the universities, degrees—they’re also eating, sleeping, mating and defending. So if our education is meant for simply eating sleeping, mating and defending, then what is the difference? That is not education. Real education is to understand what you are. That is real education. Ätma-jïäna.” (Lecture on Çrémad-Bhägavatam 6.1.8—New York, July 1971) “The fact is that these fools, these rascals who are thinking that this world is for their enjoyment, this money belongs to him... It is stated here, aviduñaù. Aviduñaù means rascal, without any education. Without any education. They have got all these university degrees and without education? Yes. Why? Because they have no spiritual education.” (Lecture on Çrémad-Bhägavatam 7.9.11—Montreal, August 1968)

Conducted by Çréman Bhagératha Däsa (BRS) Sahyädri Çré Kåñëa-Balaräma Kñetra, Karnataka, India, May 2007 1. What is your understanding of education? Or, according to you, what constitutes education? Ätmatattva Däsa: As I understand, our books emphasize that education should develop or train one to have an equal vision: vidyä-vinaya-sampanne brähmaëe gavi hastini çuni caiva çva-päke ca paëòitäù sama-darçinaù (Bg 5.18) Equal vision is seeing beyond the temporary, external identifications. This constitutes real education, or real vidyä. To see beyond the upädis, beyond the bodily distinctions, one has to have a thorough understanding of what is matter, of what is spirit, and how they are related. In order to impart this understanding, which is not just some theoretical theosophy, thirty-two different aspects are mentioned as vidyäs in the Upaniñads. The foremost among them is brahma-vidyä. In the Bhagavad-gétä, Lord Kåñëa imparts this vidyä to Arjuna through their discussion. Brahma-vidyä is the knowledge of the eternal spirit, and it begins by giving good understanding of both matter and spirit. There are sixty-four arts, even though at present most of them may not be manifested. Thirty-two of them are crafts that support different aspects of the other thirty-two arts. For example, the art of painting calls for a craft dealing with canvas, the ingredients of the paint, etc. This defines art and craft, or skill. The list of the sixty-four arts can be found in the Brahma-saàhitä and other sources. The arts listed will vary in different reference books, but when we examine them holistically, we will find that they all deal with the same topic: how to deal with matter in relation to its source, the Supreme. These sixty-four arts are all put to use when someone is trained to practice


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the sixty-four äcäras (personal behaviors) and to offer the sixty-four corresponding upäcäras (procedures) to the Supreme. The çästras thus indicate the presence of a proper method by which we can educate the students on sixty-four äcäras and upäcäras; the method includes all of the sixty-four arts. We may not be able to start classes on all these sixty-four arts immediately. We have to do research on these arts and establish how many are needed. Bhagératha Däsa: Are all these sixty-four arts still available nowadays? Ätmatattva Däsa: Some of them are not available—for example, learning, understanding, and speaking the language of birds, or the weaponry science whereby one directs weapons by sound vibration. There is also mention in the scripture of a method to make certain weapons by changing the constitution of its metal via mantras. My enquiry with different people and research suggests that this kind of science of mantra vibration cannot be applied to contemporary students; apparently, they lack the necessary capacity for vibration and concentration, and of purity in chanting these mantras. Similarly, in çilpa-çästra (the art of sculpture), the sthäpati (sculptor) could reduce the density of the rock by chanting mantras. Therefore, any huge or dense rock could be carved just as easily as carving butter, and could be raised to any height. There is the interesting example of the unique Båhadéçvara temple in Tanjavur, a big temple for Lord Çiva, with its huge sanctum tower of more than two hundred feet high. Its kalaça, the structure on the top, which is very large and heavy, weighs about eighty tons. The method adopted to raise and finally place that heavy monolith has evoked several speculations among the archaeologists. British archeologists think that a long ramp measuring about thirty kilometers, beginning from a village close by, was built for the purpose. But simple common sense itself refutes that it is not practical to roll up such a huge and heavy rock for thirty kilometers—especially with only bamboo available as construction material for the ramp, and no complex mechanism available at the time.

and it was lifted like a piece of cotton to the top. This temple was built by the Chola kings in the eleventh century AD—not some prehistoric time. It brings to attention the purity and clarity of their concentration. It may sound ideological, but if the sthäpatis, or those learning from them, possess marked purity and concentration, then it is possible. Even in this age this can be achieved. At least sixty to seventy percent of that knowledge is available in the scriptures; so by having the required purity, these feats can be performed within the age of the holy name. This is not just a theory; it is as real as any science. In modern technology, a few years ago, computers meant very big giant boards; now they are very compact and have a capacity of so many gigabytes. As the gross approach to matter deepens, people are able to make this kind of technological advancement. Ten years ago, mobile phones were unheard of in India. When Graham Bell connected two boxes with a wire, saying that we can speak from here and be heard from there, it was dismissed as a dream. It is the same case with sound vibration. The system has to be unlocked and the information made manifest for practical use. If the gross approach can accomplish some wonders, why wouldn’t the subtle approach do at least as much? With proper training we can develop those kinds of abilities.

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Bhagératha Däsa: Also there is the fear of the rock breaking in the middle. Ätmatattva Däsa: Yes, and who will carry it? Somebody has to carry it and manually place it on top via the ramp—another impossibility. So, we have to admit that there was another technology present. In çilpa-çästra, the accomplishment of this task has been simply attributed to mantras. The sthäpatis were experts in the chanting of sound vibrations. The vibrations reduced the density of the rock,

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2. How should we impart education in general society, on the one hand, and within our ISKCON, on the other? Ätmatattva Däsa: These are not two entirely different things. Çréla Prabhupäda always referred to it as “creating the brain of society.” It can be understood through the example of a body. If we train the brain, and it keeps functioning properly, the rest of the body acts properly, as it is guided by the brain. Similarly, by depending upon the regulated process of chanting the holy name, the devotees are trained to act as the brain of society and guide the rest of the world. The devotees are made to understand temporary and eternal qualities. Depending on the strength of chanting the holy name, they go out as missionaries. A devotee, who has a pure personality, is compassionate and tries to relieve others of miseries by distributing knowledge. He possesses the otherwise rare qualities of regulation and self-control; everyone will eventually value his advice on everything, as we have already seen practically. This is how the devotees gradually become the brain of society. With better training, nicer education, and more rapt analytical study of our books, the possibility to guide society increases.


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There are several essential topics to understand for such missionaries leading the citizens. However, it all comes back to the strength of the holy name, to purity, and to regulated service— sädhana. Kåñëa says, “I give the intelligence by which one can come to me,” dadämi buddhi-yogaà taà yena mäm upayänti te (Bg 10.10). It is thus reasonable that various ways of guiding society will, in due time, manifest to the devotees; their duties of acting as the brain will become complete.

Bhagératha Däsa: By “our books” do you mean strictly Çréla Prabhupäda’s books?

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3. What are the weaknesses in the modern educational system? Ätmatattva Däsa: I am not very educated to say, but we can see, by practical experience and the observations of our äcäryas, its limits. First, in modern education there is no development of the personality according to the propensity of the student. Besides that, there is no knowledge of what is temporary and what is permanent. In modern education, mohä (the bewilderment of taking the temporary as the all in all) is the main defect. Because of that kind of value, a person’s dealing will be confined to the temporary. He has no information about the eternal spirit soul. These two aspects are missing. Their advancement is very much like running in a circle— if not gliding down to hell. These are the main defects, according to my understanding. 4. What weaknesses plague ISKCON, would you say, in relation to its knowledge and implementation of the Vedic concepts of education? Ätmatattva Däsa: Mostly, it is our poor understanding of the Vedic principles found in our books, especially in their application to different places, countries, and climates. We have a difficulty in connecting people of various backgrounds to the Vedic culture. First, we should introduce the strength of the holy name and encourage people to chant. We will then be able to see how these different persons can be trained and engaged. The introduction of the holy name and the basic principles of pure life help us to know and understand a person beyond his bodily designation; we can perceive how he identifies with matter as well. A problem has to be made clear before we can deal with it. Our main difficulty lies in not being able to apply the system of Vedic education according to place, time, and circumstance. The solution is a deeper study of Vedic education, as presented in our books. This will lead to proper implementation, if we put in the effort.

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Ätmatattva Däsa: Principally Çréla Prabhupäda’s books. What he has given is our ultimate source of information about Vedic education. We do not base our effort in Vedic education on books other than his. We are discussing how to educate, how to impart Vedic education, and the difficulties that we find are mostly in implementation. We have first heard about this education from Çréla Prabhupäda’s books; that is how it all started. Therefore, first we must have clear and thorough knowledge of what is explained in these books. Then, in his books he gives reference to further books—but the first thing is to digest what is expressed within our books. We have to grasp what Çréla Prabhupäda explained as Vedic education and how he wanted it applied. Today, for instance, if we say “A boy that reaches five years old should be sent to study in the forest university,” that would not work. We simply do not have any forest to send him. We have a little forest in Hebri, 8 but we do not have any facility for a five-yearold child to do something of value. We need first to study our books, take everything that is mentioned there about education, and see how it can be applied in places like Bali, Våndävana, Mäyäpur, etc. I think these are the main difficulties. We generally agree that Vedic education is the best, that traditional education is the best, and hold all of it to be true. But the difficulty comes when we avoid the instructions and their application by claiming that we cannot do more than what we are already doing, or that those instructions are not practical. We suffer from niyamägraha: we are either at one extreme, following the rule without seeing the principle, or at the other, rejecting the rule altogether. Çréla Prabhupäda said that if you complain about a problem you must propose a solution as well. In this line, in observing the difficulties that we have in education, I advance the solution of proper analytical study—first of our books, and then if needed, from other relevant çästras. Çréla Prabhupäda left us over forty huge volumes. If you just go to the index under “Education,” there is so much information. There are hundreds and hundreds of lectures and conversations. We should collect this information and classify it properly. Then, an interaction between devotees who are trying 8. Sahyädri Çré Kåñëa-Balaräma Kñetra, an ISKCON farm project and Varëäçrama College, started by Bhakti Räghava Swami near Udupi, in Karnataka, South India.

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to implement the system is needed to see how it is applicable in different places. This is crucial. I remember reading a letter 9 where Çréla Prabhupäda wrote that “if you cannot run a gurukula in that place as I am telling you, just close and send the children to Våndävana.” I am sure you will be able to find that correspondence. In some places it is illegal to have your own system of education and make your own curriculum. In those circumstances our effort has to be introduced as extra-curricular activities, or in the form of art—or whatever, but it must be. Collect all the information available on education in our books, interact with devotees to make a system that is applicable, understand the limits of application, find ways to go around difficulties, and in that way make it as close as possible to the Vedic standard. If we cannot bring a child of five years to the äçrama, then see if we can bring one of seven. In Thailand, they keep a system where every man has to be a monk for two years of his life. One may take to it after the age of six, or at sixty, but the whole purpose is to train them as monks. 5. What are the remedies for rectifying our shortcomings in education? Ätmatattva Däsa: We have to undertake a deeper study of our books and seriously try to apply them in different places. This is quite a challenging task. Unless one is genuinely interested and dedicated to doing so, it will not be possible for him to succeed; everything will remain theoretical. There may be other parallel solutions to the problem, like collecting information from various authoritative sources and meeting successful traditional educators. We have many options if we just think about it. 9. “We cannot be forced to follow the standards of the mlecchas and yavanas. One may build so many buildings to follow this and that code, but the basic principle of such codes is sense gratification which we are against. There are so many thousands of buildings in the West which are filled with illegalities, but how is it that we must come to a perfect standard or be closed down? This is not the standard of law, but prosecution. If in illusion we think that we must spend money to come to that standard what guarantee is there that they will not simply find another standard for us to follow which will cause so much more trouble and cost so much more money and ultimately they will pass some law making the gurukula illegal. Therefore the school should be moved to India, specifically to our new gurukula project in Våndävana, where the facility will be just to our needs and the needs of the brahmacärés to develop spiritually because it is based on authentic scripture. To live in Våndävana is the highest perfection and to grow up in Våndävana the greatest fortune. Who can compare Våndävana to the nasty Western culture? Even to live in Mathurä-maëòala for a fortnight guarantees one liberation. In Våndävana no one will place restrictions on the school and it will be encouraged by the government.” (Letter to Jayatértha—Mäyäpur, January 1976) 10. On the next page—premä pumartho mahän—is from Caitanya-maïjuñä, a commentary on Çrémad-Bhägavatam by Çrénätha Cakravarté.

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6. What are the pillars of a varëäçrama society? Ätmatattva Däsa: Wherever there is life there will also be the different attainments in life: dharma (religion), artha (economic development), käma (sense gratification), and mokña (freedom from miseries). Beyond these four is the aim of the soul, developing attraction 10 Forgetfulness and love for the Lord, premä pumartho mahän. of the Lord results in one’s tendency to lord it over matter. By the Lord’s perfect system, this lording tendency can be purified, and one will see that apart from dharma, artha, käma, and mokña, there is bhakti, the real aim of life. It is one thing to know that there is a problem, another to understand its nature, and still another to solve it. In the modern system, the problem is not at all understood because there is no training. Nobody wants to talk about the real problem, especially not politicians, because they know that they do not have a solution. Prabhupäda mentions this in many lectures, like in Moscow, where he said that the real problem is birth, death, old age, and disease. Even before going for a solution, we need to understand the problem and know what is temporary and what is eternal, what dies and what does not die, the stages of life, and how to conduct life in a progressive manner. First we observe the difficulty, and then we give a prescription. Prabhupäda many times pointed out that varëa and äçrama are where human civilization begins. Basically, civilization entails the presence of books of knowledge; if such books are absent there is no proper civilization. In çästra, we find the knowledge of the natural divisions of society and of the training needed to transform the lording tendencies into surrender. So the foundation is to find out the lording propensities and give the adequate prescription. We consider how much a person is kåñëa-bahirmukha (averse to Kåñëa), what exactly is influencing him to become that way, and how to guide him to become kåñëonmukha—the principle of nirbandhakåñëa-sambandhe. 7. Can varëäçrama communities be established in our present, modern society? Ätmatattva Däsa: The answer is yes, varëäçrama can be established— but the application is delicate. There is no room for varëäçrama not getting established; without it, human society is not civilized. Where is human society getting its education? We do not see true education.


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Prabhupäda said that there is no use for cats and dogs to hear a lecture on the Bhagavad-gétä; they would not understand. The question is not if varëäçrama can be established or not—it must be—but how to proceed. The difficulty is that we cannot manifest it exactly in the same fashion everywhere, in every circumstance exactly as in all other places. There is no debate; it can and it should be done. The concern should be for the practical application of varëäçrama everywhere, despite the differences. Maybe it needs to be called by a different name in particular places, and there the terminology needs to be adjusted, but still there should be a varëäçrama system. Even in the most modern system, you will find an administration, a work force, etc. We find those divisions everywhere. It is not that it is absent in modern society; it is there also, but their goal is not to satisfy Çré Hari. The satisfaction of Çré Hari is the main factor. You cannot mold an atheistic society into varëäçrama because the goal of varëäçrama is theistic. Varëäçrama is to elucidate the cause of people’s perplexity in reference to the soul. Everything is seen spiritually and individually. We observe the specific difficulties of the individuals and guide them to use their tendencies properly, changing their goal from the temporary to the permanent. If there is no reference to God and soul, there is no possibility of establishing a system of varëä and äçrama, because the method is theistic. Varëäçrama is spiritual, and we cannot set up the system avoiding these two. The answer is that it can be done. We have to contemplate and find the fitting application for a variety of situations, that’s all.

application may vary a little in different localities, but the essentials should remain self-control and purity. Those we cannot change.

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Bhagératha Däsa: How do you do that? Do you imply the need to study the inherent culture of a location? Ätmatattva Däsa: In certain places there are limitations due to their background, culture, etc. To apply the varëäçrama system, you have to connect it with what is available and elevate that situation gradually, step by step, toward the ideal. In doing that, we may call it by different names, or start from different platforms, but the essence is still education. It does not mean that in every place we will have staunch saffron-cloth brahmacärés and white-clothed gåhasthas— who will take bath only with cow dung—and that you will never see couples walking together. There are mukhya (essential) and gauëa (subsidiary) principles. If one gives too much importance to subsidiary rules, one might miss the actual goal. So the mukhya has to be seen first—what is essential and most important. For example, in Vedic training the essentials are sense control and purity. The

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Bhagératha Däsa: So the two most essential things that need to be imparted to the modern society are soul and God? Ätmatattva Däsa: If there is no sense control, the knowledge of the self is impossible. Without purity, God is not visible. This is the way. You get the soul by sense control, tasmät tvam indriyäëy ädau. To uplift the present situation to the Vedic system, we need to bring about this change. The present system nurtures an increase in sense gratification. If there is no sense control, the vision of the soul is lost. When you lose that vision, you become a prey, a sacrificial animal to impure things. Once impure, there is no perception of the science of God. Sense control and purity are essential principles, mukhya. One may walk using wooden shoes or rubber slippers; things of that sort constitute gauëa, subsidiary principles. This does not necessarily call for the same standard everywhere. That is the guideline, practically speaking, for the division of society. That is why varëa is first and açrama comes next. The varëa will give you the essential worldly identity of the person. The method for accordingly uplifting that individual spiritually is the açrama. 8. Why are the principles of varëäçrama-dharma not so easily understood? Ätmatattva Däsa: Yes, they are not easily understood because of the confusion about varëa and açrama arising from the past. We can see this from the story of Çåìgi misusing his brahminical power. We are talking of almost five thousand years of misuse, and we are left with a kind of false caste system—referring only to the person’s external birth and a rigid identification with a community, not to the real birth, the dvija birth. Confusion pervades, and the advent of Lord Çré Caitanya clears it by bringing in the catalyst of the holy name. When this ultimate catalyst is inserted into this puzzled society, it immediately begins to regenerate. I must stress that any solution depends on the pure chanting of the holy name and the consequent increase in purity. Then this chaos will again be turned into order. It is possible. From the advent of Çré Caitanya everything was made possible. The saìkértana movement has made good progress, but so much more must be done. Mahäprabhu said, “In every town and village the holy name will be heard,” but it took a saint like Çréla Prabhupäda


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to actually get that prediction in gear. Çréla Prabhupäda said that the full prediction will manifest by the sincere endeavor of devotees. More effort is needed. Someone has to take the responsibility, endure the difficulties, and make sure the holy name is sung in every town and village. Beside, or within, this mission exists another mission, parallel to spreading the holy name, also left for us to complete. Çréla Prabhupäda began to spread the holy name in every town and village outside India, but he also wanted to establish everywhere the culture, which stands on self-control and purity, along with ideal places where one could easily practice devotion from that platform—a social and cultural revolution. The latter has yet to be done. Only a part of the prediction has been made true, and we have to see how to realize it. We have to seek out the leader who is carrying out that mission and that potency, and everyone should give a helping hand so that we will witness its manifestation in fifteen or twenty years. Before Prabhupäda went to America, the thought of a Rathayäträ held in a foreign country, or of Americans abstaining even from onion and garlic, appeared to be a fiction; nobody would have believed it. Today it is an accepted fact. The main weakness is that we are not raising ourselves to the mark, and that we shrink in the face of difficulties. But if everyone pulls together and shares the work, it is possible. Maybe somebody is very weak and cannot come to the standard, while someone else is very strong and willing to help out that frail person. In this way it is possible to realize the full prediction found in our books.

What are these three guëas? The three guëas are the consequence of being averse to Kåñëa. A kñatriya has become averse to Kåñëa by the mode of passion, a brähmaëa by the mode of goodness. Because of that, we can say that the brähmaëa is a little closer to becoming favorable to Kåñëa than others. These modes will call for certain pedagogies. Passion mixed with ignorance likewise needs its adjusted education, and so on. Each child must use his own material propensity, which is in fact nothing but his given domain for forgetting Kåñëa. Please try to see clearly that these propensities are nothing but different degrees of forgetfulness of Kåñëa; they are not any great “plus points.” The process of spiritual education is similar to clarifying ghee. Slowly the heat brings all the thick impurity to the top, from where you can easily remove it. If it is not on the top, there is no way to take it out, and it will influence the ghee. When you “boil,” it becomes so clear why a person is kåñëabahirmukha. Therefore you use that bahirmukha state to train him to again look toward Kåñëa. It will not be the same cultivation for different natures. A person in the mode of goodness will differ from one predominantly in the mode of passion or from one in the mixed modes of passion and ignorance. The pedagogy must correspond. Say you have a fellow with sixty percent ignorance, thirty percent passion, and ten percent goodness; accordingly you must instruct him. If you would apply the same dosage as for the child mostly in goodness, you would fail. This reasoning is logical. First you identify the guëas and the varëa, then comes the consideration of açrama. If, in the physical äçrama, you have a brähmaëa child and a kñatriya child, their trainings are distinct. Somebody may be able to sit and listen to a section of the scriptures for a very long time, while another may not be able to do so. You would then prescribe some physical engagement for the second boy. This service would remind him of what the first boy is reminded by scriptures: Kåñëa. The purpose is the same. Someone’s nature may derive from passionate activity, but if he has a little more ignorance than others, he may have a different disposition. This is the approach; according to the varëa, you apply the açrama. They might all be trained in the same place, but the art of training will change due to the guëas. It is very clear that you cannot send everybody into the army. It does not make any sense to send everybody to some Vietnam, where most of them will not be of any real use and will misbehave. The propensity, the essential element, has to be seen as the priority. If you start thinking that as soon as you have a kñatriya you will teach

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9. Why did Çréla Prabhupäda instruct, “First varëa, then äçrama”? Ätmatattva Däsa: Varëa refers to the proportions of the three guëas by which a person’s spiritual identity (the soul) is covered—cäturvarëyaà mayä såñöaà guëa-karma-vibhägaçaù—so guëa and karma are the consideration. Karma is the combination of the three guëas influencing a person. Predominantly under goodness is your brähmaëa. Predominantly under passion, but with a little goodness and without much influence from ignorance, is your kñatriya. Under more ignorance, supported by goodness and very little passion is your vaiçya. The culcure says “First varëa and then açrama” because when the guëas are clearified, you know that you have, for instance, a person predominantly in the mode of goodness. When that is made clear, it obviously follows that his äçrama training as a brahmacäré will be different than the äçrama training, let’s say, of a kñatriya.

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him warfare, it does not make much sense, because the modern warfare is nowhere close to the training of a true kñatriya. They go to a city in the middle of the night and first bomb the hospital and the residential quarters. In Vedic warfare, first the city is evacuated. Old people, invalids, children, women, and the sick—all those who cannot fight—are first evacuated. The fight is only between those who can fight. And why does a king go to war in the first place? Because the other king does not protect his citizens properly. Today, if you say “Here is a kñatriya” and just train him in warfare, it is not practical. He should still become an administrator and protect the weak by the strength of his character. A kñatriya is not some cliché, someone walking around with weapons. That is not very intelligent. Sometimes we have this idea of a brähmaëa writing on the blackboard or composing a poem, or of a kñatriya wielding an AK47 machinegun, or of a vaiçya just sitting, playing the flute for some grains to grow. Well, it is not exactly like that. Engaging the propensity is what is important. If a person is resourceful, he is a leader and can protect others. Our Çaìkara Näräyaëa Räju is a good example. He is from the Räju community, a kñatriya by descent, but is a medical man. Still, his basic propensity is to use his resources to protect others and guide them. That has remained in him and has not changed. Whether he would have become an MBBS or an engineer, a doctor or a biologist, that basic propensity would not have changed in him. He is utilizing his resources, and that is a goodclass kñatriya. I am not saying that all the potential kñatriyas should proceed like him, but I am underlying that their training is about protection. Some basic training must have been there for Çaìkara at some point. That would explain why he is good-hearted and thinks about the protection of his immediate family, of his staff, of his surrounding. That is the kñatriya nature, not that he necessarily has to be standing with bow and arrows. Kñatriya means offering protection by strength. Hence, the açrama follows the varëa. If the lock is made of goodness, you need the corresponding key. If a lock has three levers, the key must also have three; if the lock has four, the key necessarily needs four. The açrama is based on the varëa, as the key is based on the lock.

Ätmatattva Däsa: Well, it is not that varëa is never seen by one’s birth. Take the example of kñatriyas like Maharaja Parékñit. In many purports of the Bhagavad-gétä, Çréla Prabhupäda refers to Arjuna’s royal parentage. One side was Påtha, the other Bhärata; that was Arjuna’s birth. Çréla Prabhupäda says that he himself was fortunate to take birth in a family of Vaiñëavas. And the same goes for Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura. Only when a person from a particular community and background does not exhibit the qualities expected, then janmanä jäyate çüdraù saàskära bhavati brähmaëa, that question comes. It is not that anyone is anybody by his birth alone, but the birth is taken into account. Someone once mentioned to Çréla Prabhupäda about Prince Charles being a non-vegetarian. Prabhupäda jokingly replied, “Yes, he is a non-vegetarian. But he is a prince, and you are nobody!” The propensity and the guëas are to be seen. If you look, kñatriyas were non-vegetarians, including the incarnations of God. You can read in the Rämäyaëa that when Lord Rämacandra was in exile for fourteen years in the forest, everyday some deer or animal was hunted. That was His food. Do you think that Arjuna was never eating meat? Kñatriyas go hunting—they eat meat. That hunting is not like bringing animals from the slaughterhouses to keep them in the fridge. The kñatriya must hunt, run behind the animal, and that shows his prowess and power. Until today, once a year in the royal family of Jaipur, the prince goes with a bare-hand knife to challenge a tiger. This was so during Çréla Prabhupäda’s time, and I hear that it still continues. He goes and challenges a tiger with a knife, which shows that he is powerful and has no fear of death—what is required to protect the population. However, this culture cannot be applied immediately. You cannot give a knife to a child and say, “Here you go, boy!” In this age, no one should kill any animal for food anyway. The essential principle is that a kñatriya should be able to protect others by his resources, by his strength. We have to apply those essential principles according to time, place, and circumstance. Bhagératha Däsa: So, you hold that the qualities sometimes come by birth as well? Ätmatattva Däsa: Yes, that is what I said. Only when the qualities do not match what would be expected from the parentage should we try to ascertain the varëa by other avenues. Çréla Prabhupäda told the story of Jäbäla. He approached a guru, who asked him, “Who is your father?” He did not know, so he went and requested his mother to reveal the identity of his father. The sorry mother answered that

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Bhagératha Däsa: The varëa is not by birth but by qualities. In the beginning, how can we tell then if we have a potential brähmaëa, or kñatriya, etc? Is there any technique to find out?

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she had been a society girl and thus did not know who the father was. He went back and candidly told the guru what his mother had conveyed. Pleased by his lack of duplicity, the guru told him, “You are a brähmaëa, because you are speaking the truth.” Only when things are unclear should we check by the qualities. Anyway, in this age it is not clear for anybody—kalau çüdra-sambhavaù. We should just do what we have to do. Let us first introduce the chanting of the holy names to everybody, like Çréla Prabhupäda did. As soon as one starts chanting and following the principles, he will realize how difficult his situation is. As in heating ghee, the dirt within will come to the surface. Some have brähmaëa dirt, some have kñatriya dirt, etc. Unless you locate the dirt, how can you purify it? The egalitarian idea will not work here because we must factually see whose dirt is how thick. Without this observation, any solution offered to an individual would be futile. The standard of self-control and perception of God, introduced by the holy names, which purify life, will clearly show the person’s varëa. This is not discrimination; it is seeing the person’s conditioned nature from the perspective of his absolute identity. It will help the spirit soul in his service to Kåñëa. This is not a discriminating process, creating higher and lower positions; it rather removes those strata and frees everyone from social inequity. That is the meaning of “equal vision,” which I brought up earlier: vidyä-vinaya-sampanne brähmaëe gavi hastini çuni caiva çva-päke ca paëòitäù sama-darçinaù (Bg 5.18) The “equal vision” of a sage does not put the dog-eater on the throne! He still perceives that the dog-eater is ignorant—and therefore needs a more appropriate engagement for his progress— and that the king, sitting on the elephant, knows better what to do. He still sees that in the cow’s body all the demigods reside. The desired result of education is that vidyä vinaya sampane. Bhagératha Däsa: I have heard that among the Päëòavas only Bhéma was a non-vegetarian. Ätmatattva Däsa: I don’t think so. There was a discussion between Çréla Prabhupäda and the RSS people, who claimed that the åñés and the Päëòavas were all vegetarians. Çréla Prabhupäda said, “No! That is not true. Why would I say otherwise?” To this the RSS people retorted, “But Swamiji if you say like that, everywhere else people will follow this kind of Vedic culture only.” Prabhupäda countered that all over the world he had already made people follow Vedic culture.

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10. What is the relationship between varëäçrama and education? Ätmatattva Däsa: The äçramas are wherein education is given for purifying one’s existence. This is different for each varëa. The education continues in the four äçramas—brahmacäré, gåhasta, vänaprastha, and sannyäsa—so that one can purify and transcend the material identification relative to his varëa. This is what I would say in connection to varëäçrama and education. The äçramas are the stages of life for being spiritually educated and becoming free from the material designation of varëa. 11. Please elaborate the concepts of sambandha-jïäna, abhideya, and prayojana in relation to varëäçrama and education, respectively. Ätmatattva Däsa: Sambandha stands for the relationship with the Supreme. Abhideya, the process, discussed earlier, is the revival of that relation. Prayojana is the highest goal to be obtained through that endeavor. Through the Vedic system of education, given in a sucession of äçrama stages, we are trained to revive our original relationship with Kåñëa. This is abhideya. We can proceed through the four äçramas or go straight from brahmacäré to sannyasa if possible. Our constant aim should be premä pumartho mahän, to develop love of Godhead. If it is not, our varëäçrama would be known as äsuré-varëäçrama, or atheistic varëäçrama, as opposed to daivavarëäçrama, which keeps central the goal of developing prema by using properly the method of äçramas. Education by äçramas is the abhideya by which we seek to uncover our original relationship, now deficiently exibited through the tainted glass of the three modes as brähmaëa, kñatriya, vaiçya, or çüdra, and rise above this designation of varëa to attain svarüpa, our original identity. When we become free by abhideya from the bodily designations, we grasp and realize the complete sambandha and prayojana. Our objective of attaining love of God is then in clear sight. 12. The concept of compulsory education, whereby children are compelled to attend school until a certain age or a certain level, is being extensively promoted in modern education. Would you comment on its merits and demerits? Ätmatattva Däsa: Well, for any child, in the beginning some compulsion is needed to get him to learn. The fact that everybody is taught in a similar manner can be called the demerit of that system. Everybody’s propensity and nature is different, so they should be


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trained in different ways accordingly. That kind of classification is missing in modern education, where the students spend ten years in high school, two years in pre-college, and another four to seven years after that. Their whole concocted theory of spending twelve years in preparation for spending another four or five at the university, and so on, is meaningless—almost eighteen years are gone! The training is job-oriented. The student’s aim is to get a job, but still there is no guarantee he will get one. A particular study, like engineering or medicine, is not accepted because one has a calling for it, but simply because it is available in the institution and promises a chance for getting a certain standard of life. This is another demerit. One merit is that he is trained to be disciplined in connection to his work; he goes to school every morning, comes back at a particular time, gets his homework done, prepares for exams, etc. This is some kind of training, and there is a little merit in the exercise. But the subject studied does not purify his existence, neither is it according to his nature and likings, nor does most of what he learns serve the purpose of economic maintenance—which is the only aim of that institution.

produce a child who is happily engaged. It will strengthen his sense of identity, his individual talents, and will remove unconducive ideas and feelings. But everybody is fed the same plate. To force a similar content upon everyone is a big flaw of modern education—all the same until the end of high school. Then there is some classification, but according to what is available at the time, not to propensity. Often people fill applications for various colleges and just try to see where they can squeeze in somehow. It is not that they appreciate the subject they will study.

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Bhagératha Däsa: You answered that any child would need some sort of compelling to get involved with education. Does it apply to children of çüdra nature as well? Ätmatattva Däsa: For anybody—or any child—to submit to a system, some amount of compelling is needed in the beginning. Without it, the child would not take to any system of development. But it should come to something that the child actually likes. The first thing is to get him into a practice—within a certain time frame he is made to take part in certain regulated activities—but it all must bring him to a subject matter that he appreciates. Whatever is learned happily, with an appreciation, will be retained. Not everybody needs to study sixty pages of mathematics. You can see that some are not interested and just want to pass the imposed exam. The result is that whatever is studied in one year is not remembered in the next. Neither is there time to remember anything, because of the constant pressure to study new things. In addition, the student is thrown all over the place and has to touch upon every subject. He does not simply study in relation to the subject he appreciates and for which he has propensities. A tailored education—focused, based on nature and attraction—will

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13. Please briefly outline the differences between what is called “traditional education” and what is called “modern education,” and also define “formal,” “informal,” and “non-formal” education. Ätmatattva Däsa: Traditional education, in its original form, was based on strict adherence to scriptures and is therefore difficult to relate to at present. Mostly, as you have touched upon in the second part of your question, traditional education has been conceived as simply peripheral to the mainstream of life, only to train priests in ritualistic performances. That is how it has generally been understood for some time now. However, this is not what traditional Vedic education connotes. Some percentage of the brähmaëas may become priests, but not all. There are different kinds of traditional education even for the brähmaëas. They can be teachers or cooks, practice medicine, practice arts like music, etc. Then you have the other varëas too. To prepare for priesthood is not by far the totality of traditional education. The non-formal family training is, we can say, to some extent still in shape, especially in certain communities of tradesmen or craftsmen. Even though they may send their children to get some formal education, they still impart their family line of work to them. A guy may study something in college, but if his father is a jeweler, he will also learn that art from him. He will be a jeweler and use his modern education to improve the family business, its logistics and marketing, etc. In that way, many are trained and remain in the family line. Mostly among craftsmen, tradesmen, and the business community do we see this trend. They use modern education to that effect. But, of course, the goal of life is forgotten. In Vedic traditional education, the student is taught simultaneously about his real identity. He learns to see God in the activities of his livelihood. Unfortunately, this type of pedagogy has become obsolete and forgotten. Traditional education is not only restricted to priesthood, but is vast and variegated.

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14. What would you say is the main pitfall in modern education? Ätmatattva Däsa: Well, I do not know much about modern education, because I am not so educated per se. But I can say that the person is missing! Who is he? He does not know. He knows exactly how many miles from the earth to the sun, according to some bogus information he accepts as perfect, but he does not know his true self. I would say as Jesus said: “What profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?” Who is he? Where does he come from? Why is he here? Where is he going? He does not have a clue. This is certainly the main pitfall of modern education, and will be the source of its downfall as well. Real education is to know oneself—the science of the self and the science of God. Without this axiom, no so-called science is acceptable as a vidyä, according to the standards of the Upaniñads. Earlier, I spoke about the thirty-two vidyäs. All these vidyäs deal with the permanent and the temporary, the gross and the subtle, the visible and the invisible, what is perceived by the senses and how these perceptions are governed by higher authorities. This scope is completely missing in modern education, and the student misses out greatly. 15. What are the pillars of education? Ätmatattva Däsa: I do not think that the foundation of varëäçrama and of education can be seen as different. One is educated within varëas and äçramas for attaining his original constitutional position. These two are inseparable. The pillars of education will not differ from those of varëäçrama. If it were so, education would take a person away from the goal. Or you could call that kind of education äsurévarëäçrama, wherein the focus is the temporary body, in this life or the next. The pillars of education are the same as for varëäçrama; they are not two different issues. 16. What are the prerequisites for being a qualified teacher or qualified student? Ätmatattva Däsa: The qualified teacher has to know the subject matter, should show compassion, and should act in a non-competitive spirit—saha näv avatu saha nau bhunaktu saha véryaà karavävahai: “Let us both be enlightened without competing with each other.” This prayer is chanted in the beginning of classes. The teacher is noncompetitive, compassionate, and takes good care of the students. He is always satisfied and happy when the students learn. The teacher

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does not teach because he is paid. Otherwise, there is no question of compassion, care, or something along those lines. If a materialistic teacher is not paid, he will not teach. Then the student will not be submissive, tad viddhi praëipätenaparipraçnena sevayä. The student pays fees at the counter, so he will demand to be taught; he will not submit. There will be no tad viddhi praëipätena. A genuine teacher becomes delighted if the student surpasses him. That kind of qualification is wanted. The student, from his side, should be submissive and respectful. He should understand that this person is taking care of me and is uncovering my real identity. He loves the guru for teaching him self-realization. Çréla Prabhupäda explained that where a qualified speaker and a qualified listener meet, like Çukadeva Gosvämé meeting Parékñit Mahäräja, there will always be a transmission of knowledge. Çukadeva Gosvämé has realized what is permanent and what is temporary. He is free from everything—transcendental. Parékñit Maharaja is facing a great challenge and seeks something permanent, as his life is soon coming to an end. He thirsts to know the Supreme, and Çukadeva knows the answer. They are both perfect examples of qualification. 17. What should constitute the curriculum in education? How much of the curriculum should be from traditional sources, and how much should be from other sources? Ätmatattva Däsa: The basic curriculum should all be from traditional sources. Then we can have supplements to support the present situation. Earlier, we copied the books by using palm leaves, and then came the iron pen. Now we use printing press, or computers, or this recorder. However, except for the consideration of knowledgedelivery, the basic curriculum should be based on traditional resources only. You can use the support of modern technique for the practical transmission of traditional knowledge, to make it work, but the resources themselves should be solely traditional. With traditional references, the understanding of the nature of matter, of spirit, and of the controller of both is pervasive. In modern courses, that is missing. But we can always use technology as a support. We should gather from Vedic sources in designing curricula intended for brähmaëas, kñatriyas, vaiçyas, and çüdras. This will ensure a consistent understanding, in all topics, of the presence of the spirit soul and of the workings of the three modes of material nature. Pollution is caused by the modes of nature; thus, a correlated purification is gained by scientifically dividing


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the society accordingly. We cannot follow the model of the socalled classless society, because there is no information about the guëas. But we can use different methodologies to support our effort. Previously Vaiñëavas would travel by foot; now we fly from one city to another.

Ätmatattva Däsa: Exactly! The consciousness of the person, his class, his saintliness, gets transferred. That is not the same when it comes down to the next level, like that of ink and paper. This is the principle. But if you need many copies shortly, the technology is there for you to use. We should utilize technology, not become enslaved by it. We should not become dependent.

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Bhagératha Däsa: Should we encourage people to use, and continue making, computers and such technology? Ätmatattva Däsa: If it is available it can be used—that is what Çréla Prabhupäda did—but we do not want to separately encourage and value technology as something wonderful on its own. Someone in Çrédhäm Mäyäpur asked Çréla Prabhupäda, “Should I go and study medicine, so that I can serve the devotees who fall sick?” Çréla Prabhupäda replied, “When you go to Calcutta, simply preach to a doctor and bring him here. He will serve the devotees.” We can see now, at every festival a few doctors come from Calcutta. Some may take a little fee, whatever. Instead of getting the devotees so implicated and entangled, it is far better to bring a professional man to devotion. Why spend four or five years to study and practice? There are so many doctors in Calcutta with the basic medical qualification, so why not preach to them? Modernity can be used, but we should not waste years on it. Similarly, if you get a computer, you may think of getting a computer education. But it will not be necessary, at least in my opinion. Otherwise, you get carried away. Even if many modern techniques are available for printing books nowadays, a book written on palm leaves some thousands of years ago is considered more valuable. It is called antique and is expensive. Actually, even those writings appeared quite late in history. In previous ages humans had great memory and concentration; by hearing a text once they would remember it for life. Practically speaking, the use of written compilations began at the junction of Dväpara-yuga and Kali-yuga. Before that, we find the çruta-dhara, would could hear and repeat. The potency of a book written on palm leaves is not the same as those produced by some later techniques, like ink and paper or even machine printer. The books written on palm leaves are called granthas. We call Srimad Bhägavatam or Bhagavad-gétä the king of books, grantha-räja. When you take out ten prints in two seconds it seems to be the same, but their potency is not the same. The power that it carries is not the same. Bhagératha Däsa: Can we say that the power of the writer enters into the book that they write?

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18. Is education everyone’s right, or a privilege? Please elaborate. Ätmatattva Däsa: To be educated about the soul and our true identity is everyone’s right. But because the modes influence the person, it becomes a privilege. It is every citizen’s right to become the president of America, but not every citizen has the privilege to be the president of America. The type of involvement with matter, pious or impious, opens or closes the door of rights and gives rise to privileges. One can call the dvijas the privileged classes; however, the privilege does not arise from indiscriminative division. It is based on the ability and desire of the individual to relate to spiritual education. The right, due to the influence of the modes of material nature, turns into privilege. If you look at a piece of furniture, it has been cut, designed, and made for a specific purpose. A chair and a table work differently and bring different results. If this is true for a lifeless structure, how much so will it be for a conscious soul influenced by the modes? The education of a person as a soul, the access to the message that he is spirit, is a given eternal right. How much and in what way the person can relate to this message depends on the influence of the modes of nature at that time. Naturally, at first look it will appear as if one class has better privileges than the other, but in truth it is like the variation in utility of different furniture designs. One design is more useful for sitting, the other for writing, etc. Therefore, if I correctly understood in your question what you meant by privilege, privilege is a direct effect of the design caused by the guëas influencing a conditioned soul. Bhagératha Däsa: What was meant is whether education is only for brähmaëas and other higher classes, or for everybody. Nowadays they send everyone to the school. Ätmatattva Däsa: This is what we discussed, how much a person is able to relate to edification under the influence of the modes. But the right for that training is never deprived. The çüdras are not deprived of it. If a brähmaëa wants to perform a ritual, to give a good example,


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he needs bricks for making the homa-kuëòa. A very strong laboring person brings the bricks. He needs some gold. The king collects the gold and provides him. And a vaiçya brings the grains to be offered in the fire. By assisting the three upper classes in performing their duties, the çüdras are directly engaged in these activities. But it is not that these three are the rulers and the other one is cut out from the good side of life. It is just that his potential is different. He is more physical, so he is given this aspect of the work. The modes influence him in this way. He does not venture in things related with the Vedas directly. That he does not undergo Vedic study does not mean that he is performing activities prohibited in the Vedas or that are not an intrinsic part of Vedic civilization. He assists the other three who are always doing things according to the Vedas. He is engaged in the gross, or external, activities of the same functions. He gets the same result as everyone, not less. As he is cleansed from the lower modes, he becomes a vaiçya, then a kñatriya, and finally a brähmaëa. And it is not that he has to wait for another birth to do that—janmanä jäyate çüdraù saàskäräd bhaved dvijaù. 11 When he is purified of the modes, he acts accordingly. A part of the Upaniñads has been spoken by women and çüdra teachers. Jäbäla was a tribal man who did not know who his father was, and Gärgé was a woman. Of course these are exceptions, but they nevertheless show that the right is ultimately more important than the privilege. The çüdra is neither going to engage in activities directly connected to the Vedas nor in activities completely disconnected from the Vedas. He assists the other three varëas in their responsibilities. But nowadays the whole social context is confused. Some workers think that because they are computer craftsmen, i.e., computer engineers, they are of the intelligent class, brähmaëas. But to the contrary, they are çüdras, mechanics using some mechanism to do things. Computers are designed and manufactured by intelligent people to sell to those who are not so intelligent. They make it easy: you click here, double-click there, or drag an icon, and it will work. The designers are quite intelligent. Down at the level of utilization, operators do not have so much intelligence. Here the privilege is in relation to a kind of activities that has nothing to do with the scriptures. It is just for material existence, for the maintenance of the external cover, that’s all.

Ultimately, we cannot say that in the system of the four varëas the çüdra is disconnected with the Vedas. He does not take up Vedic studies himself, but everything he does is serving the purposes of the Vedas, whether in assisting the vaiçya to protect cows and cultivate land, or the kñatriya to protect citizens, or the brähmaëa to learn, teach, and perform sacrifices.

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11. This is a verse from the Manu-saàhitä, regularly quoted by Çréla Bhakti Siddhänta Sarasvati Öhäkura and Çréla Prabhupäda, against the argument of cast by birth: “One is a çüdra by birth, but becomes a twice-born—brähmaëa, kñatriya, or vaiçya—by the saàskäras.”

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Bhagératha Däsa: Are those who fight as simple soldiers çüdras? Ätmatattva Däsa: Yes, and the charioteers, who drive and care for horses, also are. Lord Kåñëa acted as a çüdra in the Battle of Kurukñetra. He used to wash Arjuna’s horses, tie them up to the chariot, and make sure that they got water on the battlefield. These are activities of a çüdra, but are done for a kñatriya who protects law and order. In this way the çüdra is purified. The other three classes seem privileged for one who does not understand what the actual activities of this division are based on. The Vedas want 365 bricks to make the Garuòa design of a homa-kuëòa. The çüdras bring those 365 bricks. Those making the bricks are also çüdras; brähmaëas do not make bricks. If the çüdras do not help, how will the brähmaëa perform the homa? If the vaiçyas do not bring the milk and ghee, what will the brähmaëa pour? And when the vaiçyas produce milk products, they involve many laborers. And, as you have said, if one has to go to war, someone is making the sword and the shield. Kñatriyas are not going to sit down and do that. Similarly, to get a coconut from a tree, the brähmaëa will not chant a mantra to make the dab fall! He will use a knife made by the labor class. If this vision is very clear, we can save ourselves. In the book Make Våndävana Villages, 12 Tejiyas Prabhu’s article speaks about this. Earlier, the barber would come and shave the arm pits, cut the nails, and get a gift in return. The system was clear: they would wait for the barber and not shave themselves. Fools may view from their own perspective, “These are bad folks! They treat the barber like a barber!” Such ideas make no sense. The brähmaëa will not cut his nails and shave himself up. In fact, the first ritual in the marriage ceremony of a brähmaëa is to bring the barber to cut the nails, shave, and prepare the bridegroom for the coming saàskära. The barber is given a cow at that moment. He accepts the cow and goes; this is how the wedding would begin. If the barber would not come, the family could not proceed to the next ritual, and there would be no marriage. When one pities the barber, he surely is not appreciating 12. Another publication of the VBT, by Bhakti Räghava Swami, see page 177.


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the beauty of the complete system. The barber is as important as anybody else, and at the designated time the brähmaëa class is dutybound to formally show its affectionate appreciation. Until today in Jagannätha Puré, there is a given family who has the honor of making the rope for tying Jagannätha on the chariot. Nobody else will do. There are designated families for each work; this one is expert in making the rope. They know the tithi on which to start the work. It is all based on scriptural injunctions. No one else is allowed to do that. What to speak of the lélä when Jagannätha is sick and retires for a certain period after bathing. He gives more time to Lakñmé during that time, because She complains that He is always busy with His visitors and never gives her time. So He goes and takes bath with so many pots of water, and then poses as sick. If He is sick and goes on eating, people may question. Therefore the temple kitchen is closed during that time. Then the çabara tribe takes charge of the worship.

Bhagératha Däsa: Do they still get premonitory dreams when choosing the tree to use for the mürti of Lord Jagannätha? Ätmatattva Däsa: Yes, even last year it happened. Every twelve years the priests will go past the Maìgala temple, a Durgä temple about seventy-eight kilometers from Puri, and will receive guidance to find each tree. Before, we could only hear those stories; just a few fortunate souls could witness the events. Now, because of technology, everything is caught on video and we can also see. Many injunctions will be followed to select those trees. A tree will not be cut for Balaräma’s body if a bird nests in its branches. As soon as they worship that tree, a huge cobra comes down and stands erect with its hood open until the püjä is over. This happens every twelve years. Subhadrä’s tree is always found in between rivers. And for Jagannätha’s, they will find a structure with the sign of Sudarçana on it. That, taken together with the log of wood, is made into Sudarçana. In some few places, the remnants of the old division of society survive and the duties are followed. Those who do not understand this scientific division are critical and look down upon it; so many books have been written to find faults and denounce activities done according to caste. In proper varëäçrama, no çüdra performs activities not based on Vedic injunctions. We should understand very clearly that çüdras are part of the four categories of Vedic civilization, which all have very important roles to play. Interestingly, God Himself, in the Kurukñetra war, was driving a chariot and cleaning horses’ stool. We typically see the picture of Kåñëa with a whip in hand, driving the chariot, but the charioteer is also responsible to clean the stable. Do you think Arjuna, the kñatriya, did that? No! Parthasarathi did. It is not that He is not important— He is the Supreme Lord—or that He was playing an unimportant role. He was playing the part of a good çüdra lovingly taking complete care of his kñatriya’s horses. In the Mahäbhärata, Çalya, the maternal uncle of the Päëòavas, was requested by Duryodhana to serve as the charioteer of Karëa. As a kñatriya, Çalya felt insulted by that demand. Only when Duryodhana diplomatically pleaded that he needed someone equal to Kåñëa, Arjuna’s charioteer, did he finally agreed.

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The çabaras are untouchables who pulled Jagannätha’s däru when it came floating in the ocean. To pull this log of wood from the ocean waves, strong men were needed. Indradyumna Mahäräja was helped by the çabaras. They were given the benediction of service to Lord Jagannätha. They make certain juices known only to their community; the recipes are secret. They do not follow brahmanical rituals for serving Lord Jagannätha. They bring their humble offerings and just put them down, without chanting any mantra. They just tell, “Käliyä! Take this now. You will be cured.” Lord Jagannätha accepts this service. Nobody except the çabara päëòäs are allowed to serve the special diet. These examples show that the division of society according to aptitude is not discrimination; it rather values everybody according to their position. Bhagératha Däsa: But do they get anything in return? Ätmatattva Däsa: Yes. The family that makes the rope for the Deities once a year is maintained throughout the year. A month before Ratha-yäträ they have to start preparing, because they make a very organic product. They have to go to the forest, find a special bark, and harvest it on a certain tithi. It is a whole science. They do not buy some plastic rope from the market to tie Jagannätha in Puré. Of course, we are preachers, so in a contemporary ISKCON Ratha-yäträ anywhere around the world, in a city like New York or Sydney, we might just go to the hardware shop, bring the best rope available, and tie the Lord with it. It is a fact.

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19. Is the percentage of literacy in a country relevant to evaluate its citizens’ degree of education? Ätmatattva Däsa: One cannot estimate education by literacy. What are they reading and writing about? It is the subject matter that


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is important. Just because you are literate does not mean you are educated. Knowledge is composed of parä vidyä and aparä vidyä. The former is pure spiritual knowledge, and the latter explains material energy in reference to the soul. Without this reference, any system of material knowledge is neither known as vidyä nor as education. In that case, the degree of education would be zero. Aparä vidyä studies the phenomena of this world with the notion that the spiritual is part of the equation. In Vedic culture even that is considered the inferior part of someone’s education. Parä vidyä pushes one way beyond that. A study that is restricted to material energy alone is not considered a vidyä; spiritual references are the core of any vidyä. The soul is conscious and has awareness of its interaction with matter. Therefore, one studies matter along with the jéva—jarä and jéva— and this constitutes material education, the secondary education. Now, to study the spirit in reference to the controller, to study acit and cit in reference to éçvara, is the primary and most important part of education—parä vidyä. In the tenth chapter of Bhagavad-gétä, Kåñëa enumerates what is supreme and says that among the vidyäs He is the adhyätma-vidyä, the highest. In the purport, Prabhupäda gives the fourteen division of Vedic knowledge:

the Puräëas, historical records. The four Vedas, the six Vedäìgas, Vedänta-sütra, nyäya, dharma-çästras, and the Puräëas—together these make the fourteen divisions of Vedic knowledge. Some of this knowledge, the material arts and sciences that are connected to the transcendence, is known as aparä vidyä; the remaining, the purely spiritual exposition, is the parä vidyä, also known as adhyätma-vidyä. So among these fourteen divisions, Kåñëa states that He is adhyätmavidyä, directly referring to Vedänta-sütra, because that is the study of matter, spirit, and their source. Vedänta-sütra is about cause and effect. There is another verse in the Bhagavad-gétä:

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“For advanced education there are various kinds of books of knowledge, such as the four Vedas, their six supplements, the Vedänta-sütra, books of logic, books of religiosity, and the Puränas. So altogether, there are fourteen divisions of books of education. Of these, the book which presents adhyätma-vidyä, spiritual knowledge—in particular, the Vedänta-sütra—represents Kåñëa.” (Bg 10.32, purport) The Vedäìgas are the six limbs of the Vedas. To study the Vedas, one has to study these aìgas: (1) çikña, pronounciation; (2) vyäkaraëa, grammar; (3) nirukti, vocabulary and conclusive meaning; (4) chandas, meter; (5) jyotiña, time-science (not just common astrology. The science of jyotiña is our calendar: the tithis, the nakñatras, the pakñas, also the branches of astronomy like timing and distance of the planets, and our cosmology, as seen in the Fifth Canto); and (6) kalpa, the proper performance of rituals and activities. Småti-çästras, all based on çruti, expound each of these aìgas, like çikña-småti, vyäkaraëa-småti, etc; these are the Vedäìgas. Then you have Vedäntasütra, the great conclusion about spirit, matter, and the controller of both. Following is nyäya, logic. Besides the nyäya-sütras of Gautama Muni, there are many books on logic, also known as nyäya. Then come the books on religious duties, known as dharma-çästras, followed by

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åñibhir bahudhä gétaù chandobhir vividhaiù påthak brahma-sütra-padaiç caiva hetumadbhir viniçcitaiù “That knowledge of the field of activities and of the knower of activities is described by various sages in various Vedic writings. It is especially presented in Vedänta-sütra with all reasoning as to cause and effect.” (Bg 13.5) The first part refers to the six systems of Vedic philosophy. The åñis describe the field and its knower in various Vedic writings: åñibhir bahudhä gétaù chandobhir vividhaiù påthak … Chandobhir refers to the Vedic texts because they are in meter. Then the verse continues: brahma-sütra-padaiç caiva, meaning that this knowledge is most expertly presented in the verses of the Brahma-sütra— hetumadbhir viniçcitaiù—in reference to the cause and effect. The knowledge of the cause, the source of everything, and matter and spirit, is known as parä vidyä. The other aspect, the knowledge of matter in relation to spirit, is known as aparä vidyä. Plain literacy, pointed by your question, is below aparä vidyä; it is not even part of vidyä. It is called avidyä, or in Prabhupäda’s words, ignorance. It is not in any way progressive. Literacy cannot be the scale for weighing education. One may not know how to read and write, but that does not bar him from approaching parä vidyä. A pious illiterate man may perceive the evil of birth, death, old age, and disease—janma-måtyu-jarä-vyädhiduùkha-doñänudarçanam. Literacy in itself is not a qualification of any kind. Reading is valuable only when it facilitates the study of parä vidyä or aparä vidyä; otherwise it has no value, vidyä. In another verse, Kåñëa says that besides this parä vidyä and aparä vidyä, everything else is ignorance. There is also adhyätma-jïänanityatvaà, to be situated in adhyätma-jïäna, and tattva-jïänärtha-


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darçanam, to be able to see matter and spirit in different tattvas, such as jaòa-tattva, jéva-tattva, etc. This is all coming from Bhagavad-gétä, chapter 13, verse 8–12:

Bhagératha Däsa: What are the social position of the illiterates and their field of activity in society?

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“Humility; pridelessness; nonviolence; tolerance; simplicity; approaching a bona fide spiritual master; cleanliness; steadiness; self-control; renunciation of the objects of sense gratification; absence of false ego; the perception of the evil of birth, death, old age and disease; detachment; freedom from entanglement with children, wife, home and the rest; even-mindedness amid pleasant and unpleasant events; constant and unalloyed devotion to Me; aspiring to live in a solitary place; detachment from the general mass of people; accepting the importance of self-realization; and philosophical search for the Absolute Truth—all these I declare to be knowledge, and besides this whatever there may be is ignorance.” This enumeration describes what knowledge is. Kåñëa insists that everything else is ignorance. Literacy has some value if it is at least connected to aparä vidyä. Bhagératha Däsa: What about the illiterate person? If one has to study çruti and all these aìgas, how will he do it? Ätmatattva Däsa: He can start with syllables and begin çikña. How does anyone become literate? Anyone can begin his education at any age. Perhaps one will not learn as easily as one who starts at the age of five, but study is not confined to childhood. In any case, literacy is not the main point and does not determine the level of education. There are many PhDs who do not discern the temporary from the eternal. In traditional education, aparä vidyä studies matter in relation to spirit. History shows that even the precursors of Western education studied both matter and spirit—Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, etc. All of these early thinkers were philosophers. In time, that trend changed and they wanted to study matter alone. They no longer wanted to study matter in reference to spirit, so they all became mathematicians instead of philosophers. From that point on, they avoided the study of consciousness, focused on dead matter, developed many materialistic systems of education devoid of spiritual background, and gave momentum to indiscriminate material advancement. Even though Western educators were originally philosophers, their successors were mundane mathematicians. In turn, that view of mathematics created the atheistic science that is predominantly studied in almost all institutions today.

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Ätmatattva Däsa: Once they learn about matter and spirit, either by reading, writing, hearing, or associating, they are no longer considered illiterate. Plain mundane education is avidyä and cannot create brähmaëas, kñatriyas, vaiçyas, or even çüdras. In fact, it will degrade them to much less than çüdras. Bhagératha Däsa: What will be the occupations of the illiterate çüdras? Must they learn to read and write? Ätmatattva Däsa: Generally they should follow and support the other three, and for that they do not need literacy. But it is not that all members of the çüdra community are illiterate. For example, a çilpi is a literate çüdra. He knows the çilpa-çästra; he studies it. Those who make bows and arrows study a whole lot of measurements, angles, and so on. Not all çüdras know how to read and write because they study only what they need. The barber does not have to know the science of space and measurements, but he knows other things. Apart from cutting hairs, he knows all the tälas. Previously, the king had to be given a massage by rhythmic slapping on different points. The barber knew the techniques and correlated them with the tälas (rhythms) that come in music. He may not have known the science of space but he knew the science of timing. If a king came back from a battle or a grave political meeting, he found relief in the treatment of his barber, and relaxed to get ready for his next engagement. Those who took care of the body of the king were considered very important. There was a set of ministers—all brähmaëas—who ate before the king did to check whether his food had been poisoned. They were ready to sacrifice their life to save the king. Of course, they were experts in anti-poisons and knew just what to do in a bad scenario. My paternal grandfather was doing that service to the King of Palaghat. He was like the right hand of the king; if he did not turn up, the king also would not come. They were strong guys. They could hear eight different sounds at the same time. They knew from which side the arrows were shot or the enemy was attacking. Only those who had these kinds of qualifications were appointed for those important posts. They were like your modern-day Bruce Lee. He was a brähmaëa. He wielded a big sword almost, seven feet long—a big figure. The belt he wore around his waist could make four rounds on my father’s waist! He was such a huge fellow. And anyway, these were


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nothing but the remnants of the real deal. We are not talking five thousand years ago, but just two generations before my time. If we think it over, this division of society is a scientific arrangement. This morning, His Holiness Bhakti Räghava Mahäräja was mentioning how it was possible to address the huge audience of the assembly of the sages at Naimiñäraëya. My maternal uncle’s son was an Indian classical singer. When he would go to perform in places like Chennai, he always had the microphone and speakers switched off and would sing to an audience of two thousand, straight from his bare throat. He was able to do that. It was a hall, not an open area, but he was powerful enough to make the last row hear even the subtleties of his performance. These are just glimpses and leftovers of a glorious past. And my cousin was not literate. He learned the songs by ear; that is a department of knowledge one learns by hearing. In fact, with Vedic mantras, if in the beginning you look at the script, you will not be able to chant them as well. First you must hear, then you must learn to render the sound clearly, and only then should you see the letters. The references come later. Only when you come to nirukti are you introduced to the letters. Seeing the script at first limits you. The first training is hearing and chanting; later on you get introduced to reading. We see that even here literacy is not a prime qualification either. The substance studied is far more important.

study we get jïäna, and by reflection and application vijïäna. For a certain standard of traditional education to be reached in society, we must accept the prescriptions and prohibitions of çästra. Certainly one cannot give up the basic standards mentioned in that system. We cannot compromise on essential principles. We should not delude ourselves and believe that mundane education (avidyä), simply because it is supplemented with a short prayer to Kåñëa at the beginning and end of the day, transforms into spiritual education. At midday we get them to chant çaréra avidyäjäl and honor prasäda, then straight back to avidyä—it is of no use. We cannot compromise like that. And on the other hand, we should keep a balance and not suddenly or prematurely introduce the forest standard of life until we come to that level. Previously, even just five hundred years ago, forest-dwelling was more comfortable than our city life. If we try to push that standard now, without creating the facilities and giving the training needed for living in the forest, we will end up as fanatics. That is why we have to refine our understanding of Çréla Prabhupäda’s books, research çästra, extract the information, and present working models. If a method works in one place, it should logically work in other places, with some adjustments to climate, cultural background, etc. The first step is to study, the second is to practice, and the third is to create some small models. After that, we just copy success.

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20. What steps should devotees take to learn about these two important interrelated concepts of varëäçrama and education? Ätmatattva Däsa: The first step is to study deeply Çréla Prabhupäda’s books, especially his purports. Just like the Six Gosvämés, who researched the ocean of Vedic literature to extract all the devotional teachings, we have to make a similar research. We first have to scrutinize Çréla Prabhupäda’s books, and then extend our research to other relevant scriptures. We must especially read any further references given by Çréla Prabhupäda—for instance, certain books on logic and dharma-çästras that he points out in the tenth chapter of the Bhagavad-gétä—that is the second step. Then we must endeavor to make model gurukulas and communities where this knowledge can be practiced. When knowledge is applied, difficulties and hindrances are faced. We must realize, under our given circumstances, the appropriate standard of duties and learn what to avoid to progress toward an ideal society. By

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Oà çänti, çänti, çänti! Bhagératha Däsa: Thank you very much for your enlightening thoughts. Ätmatattva Däsa: Haribol!

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Chapter 5 Interview of Çréman Gopéparäëadhana Däsa “Presently many people are interested in receiving degrees from big universities, but education without God consciousness is simply an expansion of mäyä’s influence. Because knowledge is taken away by illusion, the universities are simply presenting impediments on the path of God consciousness. The living entity is already illusioned when he comes into the material world, and so-called advanced education simply increases his illusion. Trying to become happy in this temporary, material life, the living entity has forgotten that he is the eternal servant of Kåñëa. Even if one becomes happy in this temporary life, his happiness is an illusion because no one is allowed to stay and enjoy his happiness. These points have to be understood in the association of devotees. A devotee knows everything because he has seen the Supreme Absolute Truth, Kåñëa.” (The Teaching of Lord Kapila, verses 25-26) Prabhupäda: This is culture to see every woman as mother. This is not education. Education, the modern meaning of education is rubbish, to learn ABCD. This is not education. Without culture, what is the meaning of education? Dr. Patel: So culture is the background for all these things. Prabhupäda: Yes. Education is required to help culture. Not that you take degrees from the university and remain a dog. That is not education. (Morning Walk— Bombay, December 1975)

Conducted by Çréman Bhagératha Däsa (BRS) Çrémad-Bhägavata Vidyäpéöham, Çré Govardhana, India, May 2007 1. What is your understanding of education or, according to you, what constitutes education? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: The purpose of education is to provide training in order to guide a person to realize his complete potential and attain his true goal. In bad hands—the hands of government or of people with material motives—education becomes distorted. That kind of education invariably creates persons with ulterior motives. The purpose of true education is to bring the spirituality within a person to the forefront. Education does not mean “to impart something”; it rather means “to draw out,” i.e., to bring out a person’s spiritual realization from within. That is true education. 2. How should we impart education in general society, on the one hand, and within our ISKCON, on the other? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: Our business is to educate the world, the general society, about spiritual life—and not just about generic spiritual life, but about the highest form of spirituality. We cannot be content with teaching something that is inferior, a compromised conception of spiritual life, something half material and half spiritual. We have to teach everybody how and why to be a servant of Kåñëa. This is the education we must give. If anything else is to be taught preliminarily, that is acceptable as long as the ultimate goal is to awaken the students’ Kåñëa consciousness. Çréla Jéva Gosvämé, in the Sandarbhas, discusses many philosophical points. He expounds about the concept of God, the concept of Supersoul, the many energies of the Supersoul, and many such complex philosophical topics. But his ultimate purpose is to identify the Absolute Truth, our relationship with Him, and the process of surrender. In the later Sandarbhas—the Bhakti-sandarbha and the Préti-sandarbha—he wrote about the process of perfection,


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pure devotional service. That is the objective of education, without which, to study even the Supreme Soul is pointless. If an education does not lead to the awakening of love of God, it is useless. The only relevant education is educating the fallen souls to become devotees of Kåñëa. In ISKCON, this entails educating devotees to become perfect. We have to perfect whatever is inferior; whatever is inadequate in devotion must be corrected. Just as in an añöäìga-yoga school, if you fall very sick they will teach you the relevant yoga techniques for curing yourself. But the other students study yoga to gain spiritual perfection, not to cure illnesses. So for the general populace, the need is to be cured from materialism, and for devotees the need is to be cured from whatever traces of materialism is still left in them and learn how to become pure devotees. Bhagératha Däsa: But what about the general people who want to get a job and enter into family life? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: Well, they think they need that kind of an education for equipping them to go out, get material things, and succeed; but it is not needed. And it is not our business to provide material education. There are thousands of material schools teaching all material topics. We do not need to impart that education. For example, what is the need for us to get involved in a business like the making of liquor? We do not need it. ISKCON does not need to be involved in such business as making liquor and setting up material universities.

Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: In education, we see the same weakness that we see in implementing guru-disciple relationship or family life. In all three there is a similar problem. The individual who leads—i.e., the guru, the husband, or the teacher—should be as close to the ideal as possible. Because we often fall short of this standard, we face so many difficulties. So we must create ideal people. ISKCON has to train up ideal devotees. They may not be paramahaàsas, but at least they should be vigilantly Kåñëa conscious. They will then become good gurus, good husbands, and good teachers. Our basic problem is the quality of leadership. This is not to criticize anyone, but it is a shortcoming of ISKCON that we do not train up devotees to be more exemplary. Of course, we are still a young society, and things can be learned with time. A mission of this magnitude takes time to perfect. It is difficult to reach perfection in the material world. But we need perfect people.

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3. What are the weaknesses in the modern educational system? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: The system’s intention is itself wrong. The intention of teaching students how to become a materialist is condemnable and hellish. To make it worse, they do not even train students to be civilized materialists. What they actually learn in these schools is even more degrading. They become like cats and dogs, learning how to be sinful in so many ways. The universities, high schools, and such educational institutions are turning human beings into animals—in fact, much worse: animals do not come to school with guns to shoot their teachers! But nowadays there are instances of students doing just that. 4. What weaknesses plagues ISKCON, would you say, in relation to its knowledge and implementation of the Vedic concepts of education?

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Bhagératha Däsa: So you are saying it will take some time? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: Yes, but it will not just happen automatically. It will not happen simply by waiting, merely by the passing of time alone. It will take a lot of effort, a lot of attention, a lot of thinking, and a lot of hard work. How do you perfect people? It is by far the most difficult thing to do. Çréla Prabhupäda has given us all the instructions necessary to succeed, and still it remains hard. Even following the simplest of instructions is an arduous task. In Kali-yuga, when people are very imperfect, it is not at all easy to make them spotless. But if we move more and more in that direction, eventually we will have perfected devotees, and spiritual education will become effective and dynamic. Our main shortcoming is in making ideal devotees who can impart perfect education to others. Due to past unfortunate and unfavorable incidents, almost everyone is now hesitant to tread the path of educating children in ISKCON. But this hurdle must be crossed, and the process must go on. 5. What are the remedies for rectifying our shortcomings in education? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: We have to become more Kåñëa conscious. We must chant Hare Kåñëa very sincerely, study Çrémad-Bhägavatam, and serve our äcäryas with full dedication and selfless surrender. Then we will become increasingly fit. There is no material change required to rectify this situation. The only needed adjustment is to become Kåñëa conscious.

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6. What are the pillars of a varëäçrama society? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: Although the basic foundation of varëäçrama is service to the Supreme Lord, it is not evident. Varëäçrama is like Kåñëa subconsciousness. There is more thought of worshiping demigods, performing yajïa, or just fulfilling your duty, but without much thinking about doing it as loving service to the Lord. You may not have direct thoughts of the Supreme Lord, but in the varëäçrama system, consciously or unconsciously, the service takes place. We could call it unconscious service, or subconscious service. That basic principle of service to God is mostly invisible in varëäçrama, not obvious, as in pure Kåñëa consciousness. We are chanting Hare Kåñëa, we are serving Kåñëa, worshiping the Deities, and doing service to guru. This is all obvious loving service to God. The varëäçrama system is not so crystal clear, although there are some obvious aspects, like learning to respect authority. That is the idea in varëäçrama: you must be ready to accept some authority so that you grow to accept the authority of God. First you accept the authority of your parents, of your teachers, of the brähmaëas, and of the Vedas; and you respect the demigods and the sages. These are the preliminary teachings. That is how varëäçrama-dharma works. 7. Can varëäçrama communities be established in our present, modern society? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: Varëäçrama communities must be—and will be— established in ISKCON, because Çréla Prabhupäda wanted it to be so. He has given so many detailed descriptions of the varëäçrama social order. This was not meant solely as historical information; he wanted it to be implemented in the future by ISKCON. He made it very clear that this is what he wanted. Whatever a pure devotee wishes will definitely materialize. If we cooperate in the process, we are glorified; if we do not, surely someone else will take the opportunity for service. But it will happen in any case, simply because of the will of a pure devotee and of his wholesome desire for Kåñëa’s service to manifest. We in ISKCON can make it happen because of the power given by Çréla Prabhupäda himself to those who sincerely follow his divine instructions. Bhagératha Däsa: As you say, if we do not do it, someone else will. Do you mean, or could it mean, someone outside of ISKCON? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: Someone else will come into ISKCON, someone else will come to serve Çréla Prabhupäda. I am not saying it


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will happen outside of ISKCON; we are not the only people in ISKCON. In the future someone else will come and serve Çréla Prabhupäda if we do not do it now. 8. Why are the principles of varëäçrama-dharma not so easily understood? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: This is due to obstacles, psychological obstacles. Because of our modern conditioning, we find it difficult to follow a traditional society in which we have to submit to an authority and accept a lower position. Nobody wants to be a servant. In modern society nobody wants to be less than the biggest person. That is a great obstacle. Besides that, people do not have proper information; there is nobody to explain varëäçrama to them. Furthermore, mere theoretical information—even adequate—would not suffice to convince people; an example must be set. Sadly, there are extremely inadequate examples of varëäçrama societies in place, and because there is no visible proof that the proper setup can exist, we do not really believe in it. Bhagératha Däsa: Does it mean that our community needs to work and be a model, showing how to live varëäçrama? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: Yes. 9. Why did Çréla Prabhupäda instruct, “first varëa, then äçrama”? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: Really? I do not know, because we already have äçramas of some type. Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura organized the Gauòéya Maöha making a clear distinction between the duties of different äçramas—gåhasthas, vänaprasthas, and sannyäsés. That was already recognized outside of ISKCON. In the Gauòéya Maöha and in ISKCON, all the four äçramas are represented within a spiritual institution. They wear different dresses and have different duties, responsibilities, and privileges. The äçrama system had already been established by Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté, and was then carried over to ISKCON by Çréla Prabhupäda, taking it as it was from the Gauòéya Maöha. So I do not know what we mean here, because we have äçrama organization already. What is missing now is varëa. Just like with an antique scale, you need to put equal weight on the two plates to obtain balance. If you put too much on one side, then you have to start putting something on the other side. So, you have done so much work on the äçramas; now you must do some work on the varëas. You



have loaded on the äçrama side so much—you label the people as gåhasthas, and then they cannot live in the temple, they are not given any money, and they have to go out to get a job. So what are we— Gopéparäëadhana Däsa here, on behalf of the gåhasthas—supposed to do? We are gåhasthas. How are we supposed to have a spiritual life? That has not been organized. What are the occupational duties of gåhasthas? How can they function as devotees out in the cruel world? That has to be organized. We stamp these devotees as gåhasthas, kick them out of the temple; now what are they supposed to do? Therefore the varëa organization has to be done to save them.

So when we ask about the relevance of the Lord and devotional service in varëäçrama-dharma, we have to keep in mind that sambandha-jïäna means the understanding of our relationship with God. If you have an atheistic varëäçrama, then there is no thought for that. There is no thought of a relationship with God; only the relationship with the king, the brähmaëas, the family members, and such are considered. But if the most important relationship of all relationships—the connection with God—is left out, then there is no real sambandha-jïäna. Sambandha-jïäna does not mean your duty to the king or your husband; it means your duty to God. That understanding is mandatory in daiva-varëäçrama. Otherwise, it is simply materialistic religiosity. We are a purely spiritual institution and have not yet implemented a practical varëäçrama society till now. But that does not mean we are now going to become materialists, forget Kåñëa consciousness, and just teach social organization. We want to keep pure spirituality at the center, while cleverly making it available to people with material interests. This includes many of our own devotees who would leave or lose their spiritual stamina because of material needs. Establishing varëäçrama would allow them to fulfill these needs within Kåñëa consciousness rather than seeking a solution outside. This approach will also bring many new people to Kåñëa consciousness. As stated before, God consciousness may not be initially obvious in the varëäçrama system. We have to make it as visible as possible without scaring people away from the setup. When you quote to devotees sarva-dharmän parityajya, they reply something like “It is a very nice verse. I wish I could surrender, but I cannot.” So for those who cannot fully surrender immediately, we have to prescribe something practical that will gradually bring them closer to Kåñëa. Really, sambandha-jïäna, abhideya-jïäna, and prayojana-jïäna are for devotees. They should lead and direct the varëäçrama society. They are the ones who should know—especially prayojana, the experience of eternal, blissful intimacy with Kåñëa. Only the most elevated devotees, fully surrendered and realized, understand these three branches of knowledge as given by the Lord. If these advanced devotees, under the light of this absolute knowledge, organize a varëäçrama society centered on Kåñëa, then even those who would just incidentally participate in that society would benefit eternally. Because they would be following those who have seen the Truth, they would benefit greatly, even without necessarily understanding much themselves.

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10. What is the relationship between varëäçrama and education? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: Education is required for properly situating people in their varëa and äçrama, especially in the two highest äçramas and varëas. The brähmaëas and the kñatriyas need a very solid and thorough education. You cannot become a real brähmaëa or a real kñatriya without a very long education. Even the vaiçyas and çüdras need some education. So in order to guide people and teach them about positions and duties in a Vedic society, we need to specifically give them varëäçrama education. If we are giving pure Kåñëa conscious education—chant Hare Kåñëa, serve Kåñëa, go back to Godhead, do not care about this world—then we do not need to teach the duties of varëa and äçrama. But this applies only for the small minority who are just going to serve Kåñëa and go back to Godhead immediately. Everyone else must be taught about varëäçrama principles. Bhagératha Däsa: Does that mean that only a very few individuals can concentrate strictly on Kåñëa, devotional service? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: Yes! Only a very few people can purely follow Kåñëa consciousness and have no material life. Very few devotees are ready for that. 11. Please elaborate the concepts of sambandha-jïäna, abhideyajïäna, and prayojana-jïäna in relation to varëäçrama and education, respectively. Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: Properly speaking, sambandha, abhideya, and prayojana jïäna are the knowledge of the Supreme Lord and of devotional service. These terms come from Vedänta, and great devotees—for instance, Çréla Jéva Gosvämé in his sandarbhas— explained that these have to do with the Lord and devotional service.

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12. The concept of compulsory education, whereby children are compelled to attend school until a certain age or a certain level, is being extensively promoted in modern education. Would you comment on its merits and demerits?

commodity just like any other product you buy. You pay money and someone teaches you simply because you paid him. In traditional education, on the other hand, there is no transaction involved, and therefore the guru keep his brahminical privileges at all times. He can thus decide whom he will accept and what he will teach. If you are a paid teacher—paid either by the students or the government—you are not a brähmaëa. That is not brahminical; you could be, at best, considered a low-class brähmaëa. High-class brähmaëas do not take money for teaching, and are therefore endowed with greater dignity. They have the right to teach the way they want. That is traditional education. The teacher is in control; the teacher decides what to teach and to whom. It is not a business operated by a government or a big corporation; it is run by the teacher. Another attribute of the traditional system is that there is service, respect, and even worship offered to the teacher. That is the basis of education. What you have learned becomes fruitful only when you get blessings from your teacher. Otherwise, it is just information dumped into your head, that does not accomplish or improve you as a person. But when you satisfy your teacher with service and devotion, that education auspiciously improves your character.

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Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: The only merit is to keep children off the street and off the job market, so that there are enough jobs for the adults. Child labor is not allowed in many countries because children are competing with the grown-ups. Adults wanted the jobs, so they kicked the children out of the factory, sent them to the prison called school, and locked them up into these institutions. That is the main purpose of compulsory education. It is to take away children, who were first locked up in a factory, to lock them up in these so-called schools. The school is most probably worse, more dangerous. A child may get his hand cut up by the machine in a factory, but in these schools he can get misguided spiritually! This is not wanted. Furthermore, long-term education is not required for most people, such as çüdras and vaiçyas. It is better that the child goes to the store, or office, of his father and learns a trade. That is practical education. That is not child labor or slavery. There should be compulsory education, but in this way: the child goes to his father’s store to learn from him, or goes to some master and becomes an apprentice. That’s practical. Bhagératha Däsa: Some may argue that if they are not going to school, they would not gain certain experiences and, as a result, their mental faculties might remain undeveloped. Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: If you do not go to hell, you will not experience hellish sufferings. Going to the hell called “school” only to get a miserable material load? I do not think that this is necessary. School is just hell! 13. Please briefly outline the differences between what is called “traditional education” and what is called “modern education,” and also define “formal,” “informal,” and “non-formal” education. Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: I cannot answer the latter part of your question and define these terms because they are new to me. But in regard to comparing traditional and modern, I would first say that the modern world takes everything and turns it into a product. “Process and consume” is their norm. Therefore education is also a product that you buy and swallow. Education has been shaped into a

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14. What would you say is the main pitfall in modern education? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: The people who are said to be teachers are no better than animals—worse than animals. They do not know the purpose of life and are therefore unfit to teach. If unfit people teach, what would you expect the students to be? Bhagératha Däsa: Worse. Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: Yes, at least no better. That’s all I can say about that. That is their main downfall. 15. What are the pillars of education? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: Character. Bhagératha Däsa: Would you please elaborate on that? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: The teachers are brähmaëas and are the natural source of education. Brähmaëas and kñatriyas have to be selfless. They must keep a selfless attitude in their service to society. Such rare people, true brähmaëas and kñatriyas, can protect the citizens well. Teachers can give real education only if they are selfless



in their own attitude. But if leaders are selfish and materialistic, they cannot provide real education or protection. So that attitude of service, that selflessness, is the real pillar.

If they feel that a pure and exclusive preacher-training is not for their children or students, they can develop their own curricula. That should not be discouraged. Let the parents and the teachers decide what is important to teach. Only a few will be interested in the purest thing. Bhagératha Däsa: What about those who are going to learn something material; should that go together with devotional service? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: Yes, it has to be. If it is just material, it is useless. It would fail, because it would be no different than what is existing in the materialistic world already: hellish prisons. So why should we create more hellish prisons? If the situation demands it we should make something partly spiritual and partly material, but definitely never something completely material.

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16. What are the pre-requisites for being a qualified teacher or qualified student? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: The teacher must be a brähmaëa. He should be selfless. He has to be clean, truthful, honest, and also simple. He must have firm faith in the scriptures and have good understanding and realization of that knowledge. This is the requirement of a brähmaëa who can be a good teacher. A good student should be willing to hear carefully, with faith, and render service. If you do not want to serve, you cannot be a good student. Only receiving, without giving anything in return, is not the proper etiquette for a student. 17. What should constitute the curriculum in education? How much of the curriculum should be from traditional sources, and how much should be from other sources? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: There cannot be just one curriculum. I do not think there should be only one curriculum simply because there is an ideal curriculum for the best students to be taught by the best teachers. That is only a small percentage of society. Pure spiritual education, unfortunately, is not for everybody. For example, there are many devotee parents who feel their children need material education as well, so someone has to provide that. If they do not get it from a school run by devotees, they will get it from a materialistic school—which is not good. So there is a need to make different kinds of curricula available to them. Those who are interested in pure spiritual education and in training our devotees’ children—and others—to become preachers and servants of the Çrémad-Bhägavatam, will have just one kind of curriculum. That curriculum should be purely Kåñëa conscious, developing only the basic skills required to function and preach— i.e., reading, writing, and basic arithmetic—but all revolving around Kåñëa consciousness. Studying the Çrémad-Bhägavatam, studying the Bhagavad-gétä, learning how to become a good devotee—this is the pure and proper curriculum. But then others, who feel the need to have some more material knowledge and skills, can organize their own curricula. The parents, or the devotees who are teaching, can organize in a relevant manner.

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18. Is education everyone’s right, or a privilege? Please elaborate. Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: No! Education is not everyone’s right. If somebody acts like a fool, or has no intelligence, or is too lazy to use his intelligence, then an honorable teacher is not bound to accept him. Education is definitely a privilege. You have to earn it by satisfying the teachers. Some people are just too lazy or too stupid to deserve long-term education. 19. Is the percentage of literacy in a country relevant to evaluate its citizens’ degree of education? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: It may be theoretically relevant. But in the absolute sense, it is not important. It may be practically useful for preaching, because if people can read they can take our books. If they are illiterate, it is more difficult to put them in touch with Çréla Prabhupäda. For our mission, where books are the basis, it is undoubtedly advantageous when people are literate. It is never bad that people learn how to read; even çüdras and women can learn it. I do not think it is a bad thing that should be eliminated, and that the lower classes should remain illiterate. Nobody needs to remain illiterate. It may be a wrong general concept on their part, an overrated idea, but I maintain that it is not bad that people learn how to read. But most citizens have no real reason to go to university. They should learn how to read from a simple grammar school. There is no need for university in that regard. Many people who attend universities do not learn anything substantial. I am convinced that

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university education is not required for most people. But I believe that every human being should have a chance to learn how to read and write—that is good. 20. What steps should devotees take to learn about these two important interrelated concepts of varëäçrama and education? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: We should pay attention to Çréla Prabhupäda’s instructions on this matter. Devotees should read Prabhupäda’s purports in the Çrémad-Bhägavatam, his conversations, and his letters, and should realize that these are not ordinary instructions. That we are not this body, that we should get out of mäyä, and all such instructions, are not just for the public at large—they are first for us devotees! Similarly, we should understand that his numerous instructions on varëäçrama are not just a description of some bygone time, nor some dream that someone else will manifest for us. We should read Prabhupäda’s instructions with the understanding that these are meant for us and that we must do something about it. Most important is to get a varëäçrama society started. It is more important than engaging in a lot of endless discussion. We have to do something practical and develop ourselves into varëäs and äçramas. It is better to do something in your own life rather than to write a lot of essays on the subject. To merely talk theoretically about varëäçrama to everyone, trying to convince them to follow it, is neither very dynamic nor truly progressive. Bhagératha Däsa: Does it mean that we need to do it ourselves and set an example to the world? Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: Yes! Varëäçrama-dharma is not really about rhetoric, but about taking practical steps. Bhagératha Däsa: Thank you very much for taking the time to share your valuable realizations, prabhuji. Hare Kåñëa! Gopéparäëadhana Däsa: Thank you. Hare Kåñëa!

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Chapter 6 Conclusion

“In teaching the children, you should refer very carefully to my books. The qualities of a brähmaëas as mentioned in Bhagavadgétä chapter 18, çamo damas tapaù çaucaà. You must teach these qualities. These qualities will naturally come out, if you just give the process purely. The information is there in my books so if you strictly adhere to them then your program of teaching will be successful. First of all you must teach by your personal example. This is the principle of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, äpani äcari’ bhakti karila pracära. So you yourself must chant sixteen rounds and follow the regulative principles and automatically they will do as you are doing. Then they will become strong Vaiñëavas.” (Letter to Hiraëyagarbha—August, 1974)

Modern-day educationists and scholars of various fields of knowledge will never be able to accept the Vedic approach to education unless they radically change their worldview. As pointed out by various speakers in this book, such a change in viewpoint begins by accepting the definition of knowledge given by Kåñëa in the Bhagavad-gétä (7.2). Knowledge, the basis of education, must include the material, or phenomenal (jïäna), as well as the spiritual, or numinous (vijïäna), dimension of life, the latter being more important. Only if this definition is accepted will attempts at education become meaningful and scientific. The ancient seers (brähmaëas) and political leaders (kñatriyas, or räjarñis—saintly kings) of India considered human life to be a rare opportunity for spiritual emancipation. The first aphorism of the well-known Vedänta-sütra is: atätho brahma-jijïäsä “Now that we have attained this human form of life, we should inquire about the Absolute Truth.” Vedänta signifies “the end of all knowledge,” the ultimate conclusion. However, we should not prematurely conclude, as the Mäyävädés (impersonalists) do, that a life dedicated to spirituality (according to the ideals set by Vedänta) entails dry rejection of the material energy. The conclusion of all Vaiñëava äcäryas is that the material energy is not to be rejected, but engaged in the service of Kåñëa. Each of the four material pursuits—dharma (religiosity), artha (economic development), käma (pleasure), and mokña (liberation)—is, per se, undoubtedly useless. Still, until the embodied conditioned soul is liberated, he has need for such pursuit. Our philosophy is “to remove a thorn with a thorn,” or to remove a material desire by dovetailing it into Kåñëa’s service. The Äryan social science, daiva-varëäçrama, fulfills all those needs—dharma, artha, käma, and mokña—in a way that draws a human being toward bhakti. A sädhaka whose basic material needs are met and who is engaged in the Lord’s service according to his nature will not be


Conclusion

inclined to fulfill those needs away from Kåñëa. His sädhana is stable, and thus he is not easily distracted from the goal. Çréla Prabhupäda explained that varëäçrama will make it easy for the masses to enter pure devotional service:

the power of the holy name can such a cultural revolution manifest. But until we have become liberated, brahma-bhüta, we are obliged to scientifically dovetail our other activities into bhakti, according to the authorized process. So we must revert to the çästras. But how did we, in Kali-yuga, come to know about Vedic scriptures in the first place? We owe our understanding of traditional education, and our inspiration for humbly attempting to reintroduce it into society, to His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Çréla Prabhupäda—the ideal brähmaëa, devotee, and guru of the whole world. In one of his majestic purports, he has encapsulated our approach:

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“But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahäprabhu, personality like that—they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane.” (Conversation—Mäyäpur, 14 February 1977) In the varëäçrama system, one progresses toward liberation (mokña) by the selfless performance of his prescribed duties (dharma). This path, although itself not bhakti, is very congenial and conducive to bhakti. The varëäçrama system leads to liberation without neglecting the physical, mental, and social needs of the individual, because economic development (artha) and comfort (käma) are the natural outcome of one’s proper performance of prescribed duties (dharma). But in the daiva-varëäçrama system, dharma, artha, käma, and even mokña are never considered ends in themselves. They are seen as favorable situations for serving Kåñëa. Unfortunately, modern society and its education are devoid of bhakti. Moreover, the modern atheistic view leads the mass of people to believe that artha and käma are the ultimate goal of life. Their pursuit of artha and käma is disconnected from dharma, and they have no interest in mokña. They will care only for artha and käma, the lower half of material life. But there is no scope for success, neither material nor spiritual, in that pursuit. In Vaiñëava society, the citizens worship the Supreme Lord by performing their occupations—varëäçramäcära-vatä puruñeëa paraù pumän viñëur ärädhyate (Viñëu Puräëa 3.8.9)—so in Vedic education one would learn a traditional occupation that fit his conditioned nature. That aptitude-based education would lead to an aptitudebased occupation. For most, education was non-formal. Generally only brähmaëas and kñatriyas would learn their occupations through a formal education. To situate everyone properly, we must follow the scriptures. If we hope to “build a house in which the whole world can live,” there is no alternative. This understanding does not minimize the supreme position of the holy name; indeed, solely from

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“Vedic knowledge means to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kåñëa. Therefore, whether one speaks of the Vedas, scriptures, religion or the principles of everyone’s occupational duty, all of them must aim at understanding Kåñëa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” (SB 7.11.7, purport) The Vedic literature is classified as either çruti or småti. In the same purport, Çréla Prabhupäda points out that “the småti, the scriptures following the principles of Vedic knowledge, are considered the evidence of Vedic principles.” Whereas the çrutis refer largely to the spiritual and to transcendental knowledge, the småtis encompass all material arts and sciences needed for functioning properly while living in this material world. In other words, the çrutis are likened to theoretical knowledge, while the småtis are the application of that knowledge. In any science, a theory is proven by its application; so the småtis demonstrate the çrutis. Prabhupäda calls it the “evidence.” This point is most significant, especially in the context of education. The following comments by Çréla Prabhupäda are in relation to an important instruction given by Çré Närada Muni: dharma-mülaà hi bhagavän sarva-vedamayo hariù småtaà ca tad-vidäà räjan yena cätmä prasédati “The Supreme Being, the Personality of Godhead, is the essence of all Vedic knowledge, the root of all religious principles, and the memory of great authorities. O King Yudhiñöhira, this principle of religion is to be understood as evidence. On the basis of this religious principle, everything is satisfied, including one’s mind, soul and even one’s body.” (SB 7.11.7)


Conclusion

In the context of education, the message is that as we come to understand the essence of all Vedic knowledge, we should mold our lives in the most conducive manner for realizing that knowledge. This influences the way we live, the way we study, the way we apply knowledge, and the way we interrelate. We must simplify our lives, simplify our educational system— bring them back to their simple, natural, and cultured expressions. Traditional education emphasises and demonstrates those principles. That is the standard which we need to bring our educators (brähmaëas) and world leaders (kñatriyas) back to. As mentioned in the introduction of this chapter, education means to give knowledge of both spirit (parä vidyä) and matter (aparä vidyä). One without the other is incomplete.

us, but this is the problem. The Prahläda Mahäräja recommends, kaumära äcaret präjïo dharmän bhägavatän iha (SB 7.6.1). This is very, very important message. We should be careful to educate our sons, our boys, with bhägavata-dharma from the very beginning of life. That was the Vedic system. Therefore, in the first twenty-five years of life, the children were sent to gurukula for learning this bhägavata-dharma.” (Pandal Lecture—Delhi, November 1971)

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From our Vaiñëava äcäryas we learn that we will succeed only when sambandha-jïäna (the science of relations), abhideyajïäna (the science of activity), and prayojana-jïäna (the science of destination) are understood. In essence, our curricula are derived from the Bhagavad-gétä and Çrémad-Bhägavatam, described respectively as the “ABCs of spiritual life” and “the cream of all Vedic literatures.” The ill-defined and unscientific modern education will never bring peace or harmony, neither to individuals nor to society. This unfortunate situation is due to a neglect of the Vedic wisdom. (Members of ISKCON should not fall into the same trap!) Such socalled educational activities are considered by sages to be merely a disturbance to society. Çréla Prabhupäda boldly called such so-called educational institutions “slaughterhouses.” “Don’t spoil your children. The modern educational system without any knowledge of Bhagavän, I may tell you frankly, not only in India, everywhere, they are practically slaughterhouse. Because in our country, it is a different thing; at least we have got the Vedic culture at home if it is not in the schools. But in other countries, because there is no bhägavata-dharma culture, the students, although they are provided with ample opportunity for education, the nicest educational system, nice building, nice facilities, everything nice, unfortunately the products are coming out frustrated, confused young men, and some of them are called hippies. They are educated. They are coming from very nice aristocratic family. In Western countries, in comparison to our country, every home is aristocratic. At least their standard of living is so high. So what we call aristocratic, that is a common affair. So this mishappening is going on all over the Western countries. Some of them are joining

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“Therefore, the conclusion is, these religious and social leaders are rascals. If they want to be saved from their rascal position, this is the only method. Kåñëa consciousness. Genuine God consciousness. Otherwise, how can they be saved from the cycle of rebirth and death? They are ätma-hana. Ätma-hana means “self-killing.” Suicidal. If you cut your own throat, who can save you?” (Conversation—Paris, June 15, 1974) Çréla Prabhupäda’s comment is, as always, perfectly in line with Vedänta. We find proof in Çré Éçopaniñad: asuryä näma te lokä andhena tamasävåtäù täàs te pretyäbhigacchanti ye ke cätma-hano janäù “The killer of the soul, whoever he may be, must enter into the planets known as the worlds of the faithless, full of darkness and ignorance.” (Çré Éçopaniñad 3) kåñëe matir astu, Bhakti Räghava Swami

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Appendix List with Index of the Questions used in the Interviews 1. What is your understanding of education? Or, according to you, what constitutes education? pages: 1, 53, 97, 129 2. How should we impart education in general society, on the one hand, and within our ISKCON, on the other? pages: 1, 53, 99, 129 3. What are the weaknesses in the modern educational system? pages: 5, 54, 100, 130 4. What weaknesses plague ISKCON, would you say, in relation to its knowledge and implementation of the Vedic concepts of education? pages: 7, 54, 100, 130 5. What are the remedies for rectifying our shortcomings in education? pages: 9, 60, 102, 131 6. What are the pillars of a varëäçrama society? pages: 10, 39,103, 132 7. Can varëäçrama communities be established in our present, modern society? pages: 12, 62, 103, 132 8. Why are the principles of varëäçrama-dharma not so easily understood? pages: 12, 64, 105, 133 9. Why did Çréla Prabhupäda instruct, “First varëa, then äçrama”? pages: 15, 67, 106, 133

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150 10. What is the relationship between varëäçrama and education? pages: 16, 68, 111, 134 11. Please elaborate the concepts of sambandha-jïäna, abhideya, and prayojana in relation to varëäçrama and education, respectively. pages: 19, 69, 111, 150 12. The concept of compulsory education, whereby children are compelled to attend school until a certain age or a certain level, is being extensively promoted in modern education. Would you comment on its merits and demerits? pages: 20, 69, 111, 136 13. Please briefly outline the differences between what is called “traditional education” and what is called “modern education,” and also define “formal,” “informal,” and “non-formal” education. pages: 23, 70, 113, 136 14. What would you say is the main pitfall of modern education? pages: 25, 71, 114, 137 15. What are the pillars of education? pages: 27, 72, 114, 137 16. What are the prerequisites for being a qualified teacher or qualified student? pages: 31, 72, 114, 150 17. What should constitute the curriculum in education? How much of the curriculum should be from traditional sources, and how much should be from other sources? pages: 31, 73, 115, 138 18. Is education everyone’s right, or a privilege? Please elaborate. pages: 33, 73, 116, 139 19. Is the percentage of literacy in a country relevant to evaluate its citizens’ degree of education? pages: 34, 73, 121, 139 20. What steps should devotees take to learn about these two important interrelated concepts of varëäçrama and education? pages: 34, 75, 126, 140

Glossary A abhideya: the regulated activities of the soul for reviving his relationship with the Lord; devotional service. Abhimanyu: the heroic son Arjuna and Subhadrä. He was killed by the Son of Duùçäsana. (Droëa Parva in Mahäbhärata) academia: the academic community, connotes especially modern. äcära: behaviors, activities. äcärya: a spiritual master who teaches by his own example, and who sets the proper religious example for all human beings. äçrama: one of the four spiritual orders of life-brahmacäré-äçrama, or student life; Gåhasta-äçrama, or married life; vänaprastha, or retired life; and sannyäsa-äçrama, or the renounced order of life; the home of the spiritual master, a place where spiritual practices are executed. äçraya: the Transcendence, who is the source and support of all; the worshiper. Aditi: the mother of the demigods. ahaìkära: false ego, by which the soul misidentifies with the material body. aìgas: a limb; a part; a subdivision. akñara-jïäna: knowledge of the alphabet; knowledge of God añöäìga-yoga: the eightfold system of mystic yoga, propounded by Pataïjali, meant for realizing the presence of Paramätmä, the Lord in the heart. aparä vidyä: Vedic knowledge of mind and matter that includes logic, grammar, astrology, medicine, social organization, martial arts, music, dance and so on (as distinct from parä vidyä, the science of God). apasampradäyas: devious disciplic succession, promoting faulty conclusions. apprenticeship: agreement to work for another for a specific amount of time in return for instruction in a trade, an art, or a business. Aristotle: Greek philosopher. A pupil of Plato, the tutor of Alexander the Great, and the author of works on logic, metaphysics, ethics, natural sciences, politics, and poetics.


Glossary

Arjuna: the third son of Päëòu and intimate friend of Lord Kåñëa. artha: economic development. Äryan: a follower of Vedic culture. A person whose goal is spiritual advancement. asat-saìga: materialistic association bad for spiritual development asat-saìga-tyäga: to give up asat-saìga. äsuré-varëäçrama: varëäçrama practiced improperly or for materialistic goals. ätma: the self, referring either to the soul, the mind, the body, or all. ätma-hana: killer of the soul; one who neglects spiritual life. ätmäräma: one who is self-satisfied, free from external, material desires. avidyä: nescience, ignorance; the illusory energy of the Supreme Lord.

grandfather of the present day Kåñëa consciousness movement. A powerful preacher. Bhaktivinoda Thäkura: the father of Çrila Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté, and the grand-spiritual master of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupäda. Bhärata: an ancient king of India and a great devotee of the Lord from whom the Päëòavas descended. bhäva-bhakti: the platform of purified goodness when one's heart melts in devotional service; the first stage of love of Godhead. Bollywood: the Indian version of Hollywood; popular Indian cinematography. brahma-bhüta: the joyful state of being freed from material contamination. One in this state is characterized by transcendental happiness, and he engages in the service of the Supreme Lord; liberation. brahmacäré: a celibate student under the care of a spiritual master. One in the first order of spiritual life. Brahma-saàhitä: a very ancient Sanskrit scripture recording the prayers of Brahmä offered to the Supreme Lord, Govinda, recovered from a temple in South India by Lord Caitanya. brahma-vidyä: transcendental knowledge. brahminical: pertaining to the Vedic culture. buddhi-yogé: one who uses his action, in knowledge, to serve the Supreme Lord.

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B Balaräma: the first plenary expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Kåñëa. He appeared as the son of Rohiëé and elder brother of Lord Kåñëa. Bali Mahäräja: the king of the demons who gave three paces of land to Vamanadeva, the dwarf incarnation of Lord Viñëu, and thereby became a great devotee by surrendering everything to Him. BBT: the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, founded by Çréla Prabhupäda to publish his work. Benjamin Franklin: American public official, writer, scientist, and printer. Bhagavad-gétä: a seven-hundred verse record of a conversation between Lord Kåñëa and His disciple, Arjuna. Bhägavatam: see Çrémad-Bhägavatam. bhagavat-dharma: the essence of all religion, service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; bhakti. bhakti: devotional service to the Supreme Lord; purified service of the senses of the Lord by one's own senses; Love and devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Kåñëa. bhakti-çästré: the name of a course and a degree coined by Çréla Prabhupäda designed to study his books. Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté: the spiritual master of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupäda, and thus the spiritual

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C Cäëakya Paëòita: the brähmaëa advisor to King Candragupta responsible for checking Alexander the Great's invasion of India. He is a famous author of books containing aphorisms on politics and morality. Caitanya: Lord Kåñëa in the aspect of His own devotee. He appeared in Navadvépa, West Bengal, and inaugurated the congregational chanting of the holy names of the Lord to teach pure love of God by means of saìkértana. Canto: name of the parts of the Çrémad-Bhägavatam. chadar: an Indian shawl. Compulsory education: Education imposed by a government. dab: a tender coconut.

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Glossary

D

ways to kill them. It was for the sake of establishing Duryodhana as king of the world that the Kurus fought the Battle of Kurukñetra. He was killed by Bhéma when the later broke his thighs on the last day of the battle of Kurukñetra. Dväpara-yuga: the third age of the cycle of a mahä-yuga. It lasts more than 864,000 years. Dvärakä: the island kingdom of Lord Kåñëa, lying off India's west coast, where He performed pastimes five thousand years ago. The capital city of the Yadus. dvijas: the “twice-born”, the three upper varëas in the Vedic social system.

daëòa: a staff carried by those in the renounced order of life, sannyäsés. daiva-varëäçrama: the social system given by God for the upliftment of mankind; the system of four social and four spiritual orders established in the Vedic scriptures and discussed by Çré Kåñëa in the Bhagavad-gétä. Dalai Lama: the traditional governmental ruler and highest priest of the Buddhist religion in Tibet and Mongolia. darçana: the act of seeing and being seen by the Deity in the temple or by a spiritually advanced person. däru: a log of wood. Darwinism: the atheistic theory of the origin of life by biological evolution. Deity worship: the procedures followed for worshiping the Deity in the temple. Devahüti: the daughter of Sväyambhuva Manu who was the wife of Kardama Muni and the mother of the Lord's incarnation Lord Kapila. Dhäma: abode of the Lord; a sacred place. Dhanurveda: the Vedic military science. dharma: religious principles; one's natural occupation. The capacity to render service, which is the essential quality of a living being. dhoti: garment consisting of a simple long piece of cloth, folded around the lower body. Dhruva: a great devotee who at the age of five performed severe austerities and realized the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Diti: a wife of Kaçyapa Muni, and the mother of the demons Hiraëyäkña and Hiraëyakaçipu. Durgä: Lord Çiva's wife in a fierce form, riding a tiger. The goddess is empowered by the Supreme Lord to preside over the material nature and bewilder the souls situated there into misconceiving themselves to be their material bodies and enjoyers and controllers of the mundane creation. She is very powerful, superseded only by Lord Viñëu Himself, and is the external manifestation of the Lord's internal potency, Yoga-mäyä. Duryodhana: the first born and chief of the evil-minded one hundred sons of Dhåtaräñöra, and chief rival of the Päëòavas. He was a wicked asura by birth. He became envious of the Päëòavas and tried in many

155

G

gåha: a house; a household. gåhastha: householder stage of life. One who lives in God conscious married life and raises a family in Kåñëa consciousness; regulated householder living according to the Vedic social system; the second order of Vedic spiritual life. Garuòa: Lord Viñëu's eternal carrier, a great devotee, the son of Aditi and Kaçyapa who takes the form of an eagle and is the bird carrier of Lord Viñëu. He is often found atop a pole facing the entrance of Viñëu temples. The emblem of Garuòa is always on the chariot of Lord Kåñëa. Gauòéya Vaiñëavas: Devotees of Lord Caitanya. Gaura-Kiçora Däsa Bäbäjé: the guru of Çrila Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté. Gautama: one of the seven sons born from Lord Brahma's mind. He is the author of Nyäya-çästra, the science of logic. goçalas: cowshed. Gosvämés of Våndävana: the most important disciples of Lord Caitanya. Graham Bell: the inventor of the telephone. grämyakathä: village gossip; talks detrimental to spiritual life. grantha-räja: a name of the Çrémad-Bhägavatam which means the king of scriptures. grantha: scriptures; a holy book. guëa: the three modes of material nature: goodness (sattva-guëa), passion (rajo-guëa) and ignorance (tamo-guëa). They are the ropes binding us to this world. Everything in the material world is enacted by these modes.


Glossary

gunda: an Indian gangster or criminal. guru: spiritual master; one of the three authorities for a Vaiñëava. Literally, this term means heavy. The spiritual master is called guru because he is heavy with knowledge. guru-bhakti: devotion for the spiritual master. gurukula: a place where one studies under the guru; brahminical school. gurukulé: student of a gurukula.

J

156

H Hari: the Supreme Lord. Haridäsa Öhäkura: although born in a Muslim family, he was a confidential associate of Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu. He was so absorbed in the nectar of the Holy Name that he chanted day and night, and it was his regular practice to chant 300,000 names of the Lord daily. Harikeça Prabhu: a prominent spiritual master in ISKCON during the 80's and 90's. Harmonist: a Gaudiya periodical published by Çrila Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté. Hastinäpur: the capital of the whole world during Vedic times, and seat of power of the Kurus. holistic: emphasizing the importance of the whole and the interdependence of its parts. holistic education: an education which covers all aspects of life, spiritual and material. homa: a Vedic fire sacrifice. homa-kuëòa: the place where the sacrificial fire is lit and the sacrifice performed. Homer: Greek epic poet. Two of the greatest works in Western literature, the Iliad and the Odyssey, are attributed to him.

I Ikñväku: the son of the sun-god, Vivasvän, and the first king of the earth planet. Indology: the branch of Western science which studies the history and culture of India. Indraprastha: the kingdom of the Päëòavas.

157

Jagannätha: a form a Lord Kåñëa that appeared in Puré. Jaipur: the capital of Rajasthan and the home of many great kings. jaòa-tattva: knowledge of the material phenomena. jarä: old age. Jéva Gosvämé: one of the Six Gosvämés of Våndävana and the nephew of Rupa and Sanätana Gosvämés. jéva-tattva: the living entity, separated part and parcel of Kåñëa. jïäna: knowledge. jïäné: empiric philosopher.

K Kaçyapa: a great saint who was the father of many demigods and also of the Supreme Lord's incarnation Vämanadeva; one of the seven mental sons of Lord Brahmä. Kali-yuga: the “Age of Quarrel and Hypocrisy” The fourth and last age in the cycle of a mahä-yuga. This is the present age in which we are now living. It began 5,000 years ago and lasts for a total of 432,000 years. It is characterized by irreligious practice and stringent material miseries. käma: lust; the desire to gratify one's own senses; Desire, especially material desire and sexual desire. Kåñëa: the original, two-armed form of the Supreme Lord, who is the origin of all expansions. kaniñöhas: a neophyte devotee. Kardama: the father of Lord Kapila and one of the chief forefathers of the population of the universe. Karëa: the eldest son of Kunté before her marriage to Päëòu. She had received a mantra from Durväsä Muni that she could call any deva and conceive children. In her innocence she called Sürya, the sun-god and conceived Karëa. She was forced to abandon the child out of fear of her relatives. Karëa was then raised by Adhiratha and Rädhä. He fought against the Päëòavas and was killed by Arjuna in the battle of Kurukñetra. karma: actions and reactions pertaining to the material body. karma-käëòa: materialistic religious ritual. Karmé: a fruitive worker; one under the pangs of karma; one who believes that hapiness can be found in this world. kñatriya: noble king or warrior, third of the four orders of the


Glossary

varëäçrama system. Those who are inclined to fight and lead others. The administrative or protective occupation according to the system of four social and spiritual orders. krodha: anger. Kurukñetra: a holy place due to the penances of King Kuru. It was here that the great Mahäbhärata war was fought; situated about ninety miles north of New Delhi where Lord Kåñëa spoke the Bhagavad-gétä to Arjuna, five thousand years ago. It is a place of pilgrimage.

microcosm: a small, representative system having analogies to a larger system in constitution moha: illusion.

158

L lélä: a transcendental pastime or activity performed by God or His devotee; The endlessly expanding spiritual activities and pastimes of Kåñëa.

M macrocosm: A system reflecting on a large scale one of its component systems or parts. Mahäbhärata: an ancient, Sanskrit, epic history of Bhärata, or India composed by Krñëa Dvaipäyana Vyäsadeva, the literary incarnation of Godhead, in 100,000 verses. The essence of all Vedic philosophy, the Bhagavad-gétä, is a part of this great work. Mahäprabhu: see Caitanya. Mahäräja: a great king or great saintly person. maìgala-ärati: the daily predawn worship ceremony honoring the Deity of the Supreme Lord. manana: contemplation and practice. mantra: a pure sound vibration that can deliver the mind from its material inclinations and illusion. Manu: Svayambhuva Manu, a demigod son of Brahmä who is the original father and lawgiver of the human race. Manu-saàhitä: the scriptural lawbook for mankind, written by Manu, the administrative demigod, and father of mankind. maöha: a Vedic monastery. mätäjé: respected mother. mäyä: the illusory energy of the Supreme Lord. Mäyäpur: the birth place of Lord Caitanya and world headquarter of ISKCON. Mäyävädés: impersonalist philosophers.

159

mokña: liberation. mukti: liberation. mürti: from of the Lord; the Deity in the temple.

N Naimiñäraëya: a sacred forest in central India where the eighteen Puräëas were spoken and which is said to be the hub of the universe. naiñöiké-brahmacäré: a lifelong brahmacäré who does not get married. Nanda Mahäräja: father of Lord Krñëa. Närada Muni: a pure devotee of the Lord, one of the sons of Lord Brahmä, who travels throughout the universes in his eternal body, glorifying devotional service while delivering the science of bhakti. He is the spiritual master of Vyäsadeva and of many other great devotees. Nawab: Muslim ruler. nididhyäsana: acting on realization. niyamägraha: either following rules and regulations insufficiently or fanatically without understanding the goal. numinous: relating to the transcendence. nyäya: logic.

P päëòäs: the priests taking care of a holy place. Päëòavas: the five pious kñatriya brothers Yudhiñöhira, Bhéma, Arjuna, Nakula, and Sahadeva. They were intimate friends of Lord Kåñëa's and inherited the leadership of the world upon their victory over the Kurus in the Battle of Kurukñetra. paëòita: a greatly learned man. paramahaàsa: a topmost, God-realized, swanlike devotee of the Supreme Lord. paramparä: the disciplic succession through which spiritual knowledge is transmitted by bona-fide spiritual masters; literally, one after the other. It refers to the disciplic succession of spiritual masters and their disciples who became spiritual masters, beginning


Glossary

with Kåñëa and Brahmä, His disciple at the dawn of creation. parä vidyä: transcendental knowledge. Parékñit: the son of Abhimanyu and grandson of Arjuna. When the Päëòavas retired from kingly life, he was crowned king of the entire world. He was later cursed to die by an immature brähmaëa boy and became the hearer of Çrémad-Bhägavatam from Çukadeva Gosvämé, and thus attained perfection. Parthasarathi: a name of Krñëa as the chariot driver of Arjuna. pesantren: a muslim traditional religious school. phenomenal: pertaining to the material world. Plato: Greek philosopher. A follower of Socrates. praçna: a question. praëämamantra: the specific mantra of invocation for a personality. praëipät: the submissive attitude of a disciple. Prahläda: a great devotee of Lord Kåñëa who was persecuted by his atheistic father, Hiraëyakaçipu, but was always protected by the Lord and ultimately saved by the Lord in the form of Nåsiàhadeva; A great devotee of the Lord in His Narasiàha (man-lion) feature, Prahläda is one of the foremost authorities on bhakti-yoga. Many important verses in Çrémad-Bhägavatam are spoken by him. präkåta-sahajiyäs: pseudo devotees of Kåñëa who take devotional service cheaply and do not follow the regulations of the scripture; materialistic so-called Vaiñëavas who imagine themselves to be confidential devotees. prakåti: material nature; the external energy of the Lord. prasäda: remnants of food offered to the Lord; holy food. prayojana: the ultimate goal of life, to develop love of God. prema: pure love of God, the highest perfectional stage of life. prema-bhakti: pure love of Lord Kåñëa, the highest perfectional stage in the progressive development of pure devotional service.

Rädhäräëé: Lord Kåñëa's most intimate consort, who the personification of the internal, pleasure potency of Lord Kåñëa. She appeared in this world as the daughter of King Våsabhänu and Kirtidevé and is the Queen of Våndävana. The most favorite consort of Kåñëa in Vrindavana, situated on Lord Kåñëa's left on altars and pictures; The feminine counterpart of Lord Kåñëa. She directs the änanda potency (hlädiné-çakti) for the transcendental pleasure of the Lord. räjarñis: great saintly kings. räja-vidyä: the king of knowledge, knowledge of Rädhä-Kåñëa Rämacandra: the eighteenth incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the killer of the tenheaded demon king, Rävaëa. Räma was exiled to the forest on the order of His father, Mahäräja Daçaratha. His wife Sétä was kidnapped by Rävaëa, but by employing a huge army of monkeys, who were the powerful and intelligent offspring of demigods, He regained his wife in battle, and eventually His ancestral kingdom too. This great epic is recounted in Välméki's Rämäyaëa.

160

püjärés: priests in charge of a Deity in a temple. Puré: the holy place in Orissa where Lord Jaganatha appeared.

R Rädhä-Govindajé: same as Rädhä-Kåñëa.

161

Rämäyaëa: the original epic history about Lord Rämacandra and Sétä, written by Välméki Muni. rasa: relationship between the Lord and the living entities; mellow, or the sweet taste of a relationship, especially between the Lord and the living entities. Ratha-yäträ: festival where the Deity of Lord Jaganatha is pull on a chariot. RSS:

organization promoting Hinduism in India.

Rüpa Gosvämé: chief of the six great spiritual master Gosvämés of Våndävana who were authorized by Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu to establish and distribute the philosophy of Kåñëa consciousness. He extensively researched the scriptures and established the philosophy taught by Lord Caitanya on an unshakable foundation.

S sadäcära: ideal behavior. sädhaka: one who practices sädhana. sädhana: regulated spiritual practice. sädhana-bhakti: following the rules and regulations of devotional service to develop natural love for Kåñëa.

162


sädhana-siddha: one who has attained perfection in sädhana-bhakti; a liberated devotee. sädhu: a saintly person; a homeless renunciant. sädhu-sanga: associating with devotees . Çalya: the King of Madras. His sister was Mädré who was married to Päëòu. He wanted to join the side of the Päëòavas during the Kurukñetra war, but was tricked by Duryodhana into offering him his services. He was killed by Yudhiñöhira during the Kurukñetra war. saìkértana: the congregational glorification of the Lord through chanting His holy name. The most recommended process of spiritual upliftment in the present age. Säìkhya: analytical discrimination between spirit and matter. sambandha-jïäna: knowledge of one's original relationship with the Lord. Sanätana Gosvämé: one of the Six Gosvämés of Våndävana who was authorized by Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu to establish and distribute the philosophy of Kåñëa consciousness. He was the older brother of Rüpa Gosvämé and was accepted by Rüpa Gosvämé as his spiritual master. sanätana-dharma: literally, the “eternal activity of the soul”, or the eternal religion of the living being-to render service to the Supreme Lord, which in this age is executed mainly by chanting the mahämantra. Sandarbhas: the six Sanskrit works on the science of devotional service or Vaiñëava philosophy by Çréla Jéva Gosvämé. These works present the entire philosophy and theology of Gauòéya Vaiñëavism in a systematic form. sannyäsa: the renounced order, and fourth stage of Vedic spiritual life in the Vedic system of varëäsrama-dharma, which is free from family relationships and in which all activities are completely dedicated to Kåñëa. sannyäsé: one in the renounced order of life. Sanskrit: the eternal original language spoken by the Lord and the demigods. çästras: the revealed scriptures, obeyed by all those who follow the Vedic teachings, Vedic literature. sättvika: of the nature of the mode of goodness. seva: devotional service.

Glossary

163

siddhänta: ultimate scriptural conclusion. siddhé: mystic power. çilpa-çästra: the Vedic art of sculpture and temple architecture. småti: revealed scriptures supplementary to the çruti, or original Vedic scriptures, which are the Vedas and Upaniñads; scriptures compiled by living entities under transcendental direction; the corollaries of the Vedas. Socrates: Greek philosopher who initiated a question-and-answer method of teaching as a means of achieving self-knowledge. Sophists: one skilled in elaborate and devious argumentation; Greek philosopher of pre-Socratic times who inquired about and speculated on theology, metaphysics, mathematics, and the natural and biological sciences. çravaëa: the devotional process of hearing about the Supreme Lord; learning by hearing. Çrémad-Bhägavatam: the foremost of the eighteen Puräëas, the complete science of God that establishes the supreme position of Lord Kåñëa. çruti: knowledge via hearing; the original Vedic scriptures (the Vedas and Upaniñads), given directly by the Supreme Lord. sthäpati: sculptor. Sudämä: an intimate friend of Kåñëa. Sudarçana: the disc weapon of the Supreme Lord, Viñëu. çüdra: a member of the fourth social order, laborer class, in the traditional Vedic social system. He is meant to render service to the three higher classes, namely the brähmaëas, the kñatriyas, and the vaiçyas. Çukadeva Gosvämé: an exhalted devotee who recited the ÇrémadBhägavatam to King Parékñit during the last seven days of the King's life. svarüpa: the living entity's original form in which he eternally serves the Lord; the real form of the soul.

T täla: musical rhythm. tattva: truth, reality. Vedic knowledge categorizes reality into tattvas. Öhäkura: honorific term reserved for very great saints.


Glossary

theosophy: religious philosophy or speculation about the nature of the soul based on mystical insight into the nature of God. tithi: appropriate astrological timing. trivedi: one who has studied the three Vedas. tyäga: renunciation.

Vedäntic: pertaining to Vedänta. Vedas: the system of eternal wisdom compiled by Çréla Vyäsadeva, the literary incarnation of the Supreme Lord, for the gradual upliftment of all mankind from the state of bondage to the state of liberation. Vedic: pertaining to the Vedas. Vidyäpéöham: sacred place where knowledge is transmitted. vijïäna: realized knowledge. viñaya: the object of worship. Vyäsadeva: the literary incarnation of God, and the greatest philosopher of ancient times.

164

U upacära: procedures of worship. upädis: false temporary designations in regards to the body and mind. upakurvaëa-brahmacäré: a brahmacäré who plans to marry after his studies. Upaniñads: one-hundred and eight Sanskrit treatises that embody the philosophy of the Vedas. The most significant philosophical sections and crest jewels of the Vedas.

V vaiçya: member of the mercantile or agricultural class, according to the system of four social orders and four spiritual orders. vaidhé: rules and regulations. Vaiñëava: a devotee of the Supreme Lord, Viñëu, or Kåñëa. Vaiñëavism: the science of bhakti-yoga, devotional service to Viñëu, or Kåñëa. vänaprastha: retired family life, in which one quits home to cultivate renunciation and travels from holy place to holy place in preparation for the renounced order of life; the third order of Vedic spiritual life; A retired householder. Våndävana: Kåñëa's eternal abode, where He fully manifests His quality of sweetness; the village on this earth in which He enacted His childhood pastimes five thousand years ago; the topmost transcendental abode of the Supreme Lord. varëäçrama-dharma: the divine system of four social and four spiritual orders established in the Vedic scriptures and discussed by Çré Kåñëa in the Bhagavad-gétä. varëas: one of the four Vedic social-occupational divisions of society, distinguished by quality of work and situation with regard to the modes of nature. Vedäìgas: sciences to apply the Vedas practically. Vedänta: the conclusion of Vedic philosophy.

165

Y Yaçodä: the mother of Kåñëa. yajïa: a Vedic sacrifice; also, a name for the Supreme Lord meaning “the personification of sacrifice”; the goal and enjoyer of all sacrifices. yajïa-upavéta: the sacred thread. yoga: a spiritual discipline meant for linking one's consciousness with the Supreme Lord, Kåñëa; Literally, connection; the discipline of self-realization. yogé: one who practices yoga. Yudhiñöhira: the eldest of the Päëòavas in the Mahäbhärata, and the son of Dharmaräja or Yamaräja, the god of death. It was the dispute over his succession to the throne in India that led to the Battle of Kurukñetra; he ruled the earth after the Kurukñetra war.

Z zeitgeist: the spirit of the time; the taste and outlook characteristic of a period or generation.

Index

166

A

Index

167

B

abhideya: 19, 20, 27, 39, 69, 73, 111, barber: 125 134, 135, 146 basic: vii, viii, 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16, 22-24, 27, 29, 31, 33, 34, 40, 48, 49, Abhimanyu: 72 52, 59, 60, 78, 81, 89, 93, 100, 103, academic: iii, 25, 53, 69, 70, 74 108, 115, 116, 126, 131, 132, 138, 143 äçraya: 56, 57 behavior: 13, 40, 45, 88, 98 administration: 7, 11, 14, 20, 26, Bhagavad-gétä: 1, 25, 27, 28, 31, 33, 29, 46-48, 50, 53, 74, 104, 108 83, 90, 91, 97, 100, 110, 122, 123 agrarian: 8, 33, 63 bhakti: 3, 10, 19, 20, 32, 39, 53, 61, agriculture: 14, 62, 94 80, 81, 82, 88, 89, 103, 129, 143, alternative: 7, 21, 26, 29, 69, 79, 144, 145 86, 87, 144

Bhakti-çästré: 3, 61

America: 21, 60, 78, 89, 92, 106, Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté: 15, 82, 117 84, 109, 133 animal: vii, 2, 24, 26, 50, 146

Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura: 15, 81, 82

añöäìga-yoga: 130

brahmacäré: 8, 11, 15, 16, 18, 19, 29, 31, 41-47, 67, 68, 72, 73, 88, 92, 93, 102, 104, 106, 111

aptitude: 17, 27, 30, 120, 144 Arjuna: 64, 90, 91, 97, 109, 119, 121

brähmaëa: 2, 3, 5-11, 14-16, 19, 24, art: 11, 24, 29, 32, 33, 59, 68, 97, 25, 28, 31, 40-42, 46, 48, 50, 52, 53, 58, 59, 62, 66-69, 83, 87, 89, 90, 98, 102, 107, 145 106-111, 113, 115, 117-119, 124, 125, artificial: 4, 6, 7, 21, 22, 24, 30, 41, 132-135, 137, 138, 143, 144-146 87, 88 birth: 17, 33, 97, 103, 105, 108, 109, Äryan: viii, 8, 76, 143 118, 123, 147 atheistic: iii, 33, 86, 104, 111, 124, bless(ing): 27, 33, 85, 137 133, 144, 154 boarding: 8, 29 atmosphere: 3, 5, 6, 10, 12, 23, 33, Bollywood: 89 88, 94 book: v, vii, 3, 27, 30-32, 34, 45, 48, 59, 61, 62, 75, 83, 84, 87, 89, Båhaspati: 84 90, 92, 93, 97, 99-102, 106, 115, balance: 26, 30, 43, 71, 72, 127, 133 116, 119, 121, 122, 126, 127, 139, 143 avidyä: iv, 74, 123, 124, 126, 127

168

Index


boys: 5, 6, 14, 22, 29, 55, 57, 68, comfort: 5, 7, 18, 22, 144 72, 93 commodity: 3, 137 Brahma-saàhitä: 32, 33, 97 communication: 54 brahminical: 9, 10, 15, 24, 29, 50, community: 4, 9, 10, 12, 22, 30, 33, 61, 64, 68, 73, 105, 137 35, 47, 50, 53, 54, 59, 62-64, 78, 80, buddhi-yoga: 64, 100 82, 86, 87, 90, 103, 105, 108, 109, 113, 120, 125, 126, 132, 133 budget: 4, 60 building: 2, 24, 26, 50, 146 bullock carts: 87

conditioning: iii, 9, 12, 13, 17, 19, 36, 53, 58, 68, 81, 110, 117, 133, 143, 144

business: 2, 3, 5, 14, 23, 47, 64, 50, contemplate: 49, 65, 72, 86, 104 51, 58, 67, 113, 129, 130, 137 corrupt: 85, 86, 87, 93 businessman: 48, 50, 58, 64, 85 cow: 8-12, 14, 30, 62, 81, 86, 104, 110, 119 C Caitanya: 12, 31, 32, 77, 81, 82, 83, craft: 21, 24, 94, 97, 113, 118 105, 144 crisis: 26, 87, 94 calamities: viii, 12 culture: iii, 3, 5, 8, 15, 20-22, 29, Cambodia: 1, 14, 26 31, 32, 50-53, 62, 68, 69, 71, 73, 77, 93, 102, 111-113, 117, 130, 136, 138, Canada: 24 139 capitalism: 23, 87 curriculum: iii, 3, 5, 8, 15, 20, 21, celibate: 42, 45 22, 29, 31, 32, 50, 51, 53, 62, 68, 69, character: viii, 3, 23, 25, 26, 28, 31, 71, 73, 77, 93, 102, 111-113, 117, 130, 136, 138, 139 34, 68, 82, 84, 89, 108, 137 charity: 42, 64, 66 Christian: 22, 70

D

Dalai Lama: 59

city: 5-7, 12-14, 25, 29, 33, 35, 48, Darwinism: 80 59, 62, 64, 94, 108, 116, 120, 127 death: vii, 17, 103, 109, 123, 147

169

E

demon(iac): 7, 14, 86, 90 design: iii, 3, 9, 29, 115, 117-119

economic: 63, 67, 79, 87, 103, 112, development: 6, 15, 29, 40, 42, 43, 143, 144 47, 61, 78, 82, 84, 89, 97, 99, 100, enjoyer: 46, 55, 56, 57, 72 103, 111, 112, 124, 136, 138, 139, essence: iv, 6, 25, 39, 41, 58, 67, 73, 140, 143, 144 82, 88, 93, 104, 145, 146 devotee: iii, vii, 2-13, 15, 18, 19, 22, 26, 30, 33-35, 40, 43-45, 49, 51, 52, eternal: iv, 1, 19, 23, 40, 66, 70, 97, 53, 55, 56, 58-66, 68, 70, 75, 79, 99, 100, 103, 117, 124, 135, 147 80-83, 85-90, 92-94, 99, 100, 102, etiquette: 71, 81, 138 106, 116, 126, 130-132, 134, 135, 138, 140, 145 F devotional service: 4, 12-14, 18, 19, faith: 12, 32, 59, 60, 80, 88, 91, 94, 22, 31, 33, 36, 53, 71, 77, 81, 82, 88, 138 130, 134, 135, 139, 144 false ego: 46, 52, 54, 55, 56, 58, 60, dharma: iv, v, vii, 12, 20, 30, 35, 123 36, 39, 40, 42, 64, 67, 77, 78, 80-82, family: 6, 21, 30, 44, 46, 49, 50, 52, 85, 87, 92, 103, 105, 122, 126, 132, 59, 61, 63, 64, 74, 93, 108, 109, 113, 135, 140, 143, 144-147 119, 120, 130, 131, 135, 146 direction: 3, 9, 10, 31, 47, 63, 78, farm: 11, 14, 16, 23, 30, 32, 47, 62, 131 63, 64, 87, 94 disciple: 20, 31, 35, 61, 78, 82, 84, female: 43, 48, 52, 55-57, 93 87, 89, 91-93, 131 feminine: 51, 52, 56-58 disposition: 3, 9, 15, 18, 27, 28, 31, food: 2, 4, 8, 14, 26, 27, 45, 67, 82, 33, 107 87, 109, 125 dog: 12, 26, 41, 48, 82, 92, 104, 110, 130 G draw: 56, 70, 129, 143

gauëa: 104, 105

civilization: iii, viii, 33, 45, 62, 68, definition: iv, 3, 5, 9, 27, 34, 40, 42, 79, 81, 86, 83, 103, 118, 121, 130 143

duty: viii, 11, 22, 33, 35, 40, 42, 44, Gauòéya Maöha: 133 47, 56, 58, 64, 66, 69, 72, 77, 80, Gaura Kiçora: 34 85, 100, 118, 119, 121, 122, 126, 132ghee: 10, 107, 110, 119 134, 144, 145

co-education: 5, 93

degrade: 13, 15, 26, 86, 124

dvija: 17, 28, 46, 105, 117

girl: 5, 6, 55, 65, 67, 93, 110

college: 5, 10, 11, 26, 112, 113

delivery: 3, 9, 29, 115

dynamic: 43, 55, 65, 72, 131, 140

goçälä: 35

170

Index


God: 21, 28, 30-32, 39, 40-42, 43, illiterate: 34, 123-125, 138, 139 45, 46, 49, 52-54, 56, 64, 66, 70, illusion: 41 72, 74, 104, 105, 109, 110, 111, 113, impersonal: 51, 59, 60, 143 114, 121, 129, 130, 147 Gosvämé: 31, 32, 36, 74, 81, 83, India: iii, 5, 15, 23, 27, 39, 48, 50, 52-54, 60, 77, 82, 91, 97, 99, 106, 118, 126, 129, 134 125, 129, 143, 146 governments: viii, 4, 5, 20, 22, 60, Indian: 27, 48, 52, 59, 60, 125 87 grammar: 55, 122, 139

Indonesia: iii, 22, 32

gåhastha: 16, 18, 19, 41-47, 52, 67, infrastructure: 2, 14 68, 78, 88, 89, 92, 104, 133, 134 inspire: 20, 44, 56 guidance: 8, 11, 21, 27, 54, 64, 77, institution: iv, 2, 5, 10, 11, 16, 21, 78, 121 26, 40, 60, 83, 112, 124, 130, 133, gurukula: iii, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 12, 135, 136, 146 16, 17, 21, 24, 25, 28, 29, 52, 53, 64, intellectual: 15, 16, 17, 71, 83, 85 68, 69, 71, 93, 102, 126, 147 intention: 130

H

harmony: vii, 146 health: iv, 26, 88

interest: i, iv , v, 20-22, 24, 34, 50, 59, 63, 65, 67, 75, 98, 102, 112, 121, 135, 138, 149, 144

intoxicated: 13, 26 hell: 12, 45, 58, 87, 100, 130, 136, ISKCON: 1-10, 12, 16, 27, 29, 30, 32, 138, 139 35, 49, 53-55, 58, 60, 63, 65, 78, 79, holistic: vii, viii, 97 80-82, 86, 89-92, 99, 100, 120, 129, holy name: 13, 30, 34, 80, 88, 99, 130, 131, 146 100, 105, 106, 110, 114, 145

J husband: 6, 40, 43, 45, 48, 49, 52, 54, 56, 57, 80, 93, 131, 135 Jäbäla: 109, 118 I

jïäna: 1, 19, 27, 28, 69, 71, 72, 84, 85, 111, 123, 126, 134, 135, 143, 146

identity: 19, 30, 36, 42, 47, 51, 52, 58, 70, 74, 105, 106, 109-111, 113, job: 4, 5, 21, 62, 65, 82, 85, 112, 130, 134, 136 115, 117

ignorance: vii, 26, 29, 54, 74, 106, Kali-yuga: viii, 12, 26, 46, 47, 48, 51, 58, 116, 131, 145 107, 123, 124, 147

171

Lord: viii, 1, 6, 10-13, 18, 26, 31, 33, 35, 44, 45, 60, 63, 68, 71, 80, 82, karma: 17, 28, 64, 69-71, 85, 88, 88, 90, 97, 98, 103, 105, 109, 119106 121, 132, 134, 135, 143-145 killing: 88, 147 love: 3, 9, 67, 85, 103, 111, 115, 130 Kolkota (Calcutta): 50, 116 lust: 13, 72, 83 Kåñëa: iv, v, vii, viii, 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, M 11-15, 17, 18, 20, 22, 23, 25, 27, 28, 30, 31, 33, 35, 36, 40-42, 44, 45, 47, macrocosm: viii 48, 53, 54-57, 59-62, 64, 67, 69-71, 78, 81, 83, 84, 86, 88-92, 94, 97, male: 43, 44, 48, 52, 55-58 100, 103, 107, 110, 111, 119, 121-124, manana: 6, 21, 30, 44, 46, 49, 50, 126, 129, 130-132, 134, 135, 138, 52, 59, 61, 63, 64, 74, 93, 108, 109, 140, 143, 144, 147 113, 119, 120, 130, 131, 135, 146 kñatriya: 7, 8, 10, 11, 14, 17, 19, 24, mantra: 59, 99, 119 29, 30, 40-42, 46, 48, 50, 52, 59, 62, 65, 66, 68, 69, 85, 86, 87, 89, Manu-saàhitä: 34, 40, 45, 66 90, 106-111, 115, 118, 119, 121, 124, market: 2, 78, 94, 113, 120, 136 134, 137, 143, 144, 146 marriage: 6, 21, 30, 44, 46, 49, 50, 52, 59, 61, 63, 64, 74, 93, 108, 109, L land: 2, 7-12, 14, 35, 51, 60, 63, 79, 113, 119, 120, 130, 131, 135, 146

K

86, 88, 102, 119

masculine: 46, 52, 56

language: iii, 41, 69, 98

math (arithmetic): 54, 65, 112, leader: iv, 4, 7, 9, 10, 11, 24, 29, 32, 124, 138, 143 46, 48, 49, 50, 54, 58, 59, 61, 63, medicine: 112, 113, 116 85, 86, 106, 108, 131, 138, 146, 147 medium: 67 life: iv, vii, viii, 2, 5, 6, 8, 10, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 23-26, 30, 32, 33, mentality: 3, 8, 27, 45, 60 42, 44, 45, 48, 49, 51, 52, 62, 67, mentor: 28 68, 73, 74, 77, 79, 80, 83, 85, 87, method: viii, 21, 22, 27, 29, 69, 70, 90, 100, 102, 110, 112-116, 118, 125, 81, 98, 104, 105, 111, 116, 127, 142 127, 129-131, 134, 137, 140, 143, microcosm: viii 144, 146, 147 lifelong: 17, 18, 30, 31

military: 4, 14, 72, 107, 108

lifestyle: viii, 6, 9, 10, 14, 23, 26, model: 10, 12, 80, 85, 87, 116, 126, 133 32, 33, 80, 86, 92


Index

modern: iii, 3, 5, 8, 15, 20-22, 29, pedagogy: 20, 107, 113 31, 32, 50, 51, 53, 62, 68, 69, 71, 73, perspective: 2, 19, 34, 43, 53, 70, 77, 93, 102, 111-113, 117, 130, 136, 71, 90, 110, 119 138, 139 pesantren: iii money: 5, 14, 23, 40, 45, 48, 50, 58, 60-64, 66, 74, 79, 82, 83, 86, phenomenal: 1, 3, 27, 143 87, 134, 137 politician: 47, 103

problem: 4-6, 8, 13, 18, 22, 23, 25, religion: vii, 21, 23, 25, 28, 39, 40, 33, 34, 43, 45, 47, 50, 52, 55, 58, 47, 59, 83, 103, 122, 135, 143, 145, 59, 60, 66, 78, 80, 87, 93, 100-103, 147 131, 147 respect: vii, 5, 15, 30, 41-43, 46, progress: 18, 20, 35, 44, 47, 53, 74, 53, 63, 66, 68, 71, 72, 74, 80, 81, 77, 81, 86, 87, 88, 103, 105, 110, 123, 83, 86, 89, 115, 132, 137 126, 144 responsibility: 29, 34, 68, 80, 106,

172

mother: 9, 19, 31, 35, 51, 55, 57, 66, pollution: 12, 14, 26, 33, 88, 93, 115 67, 78, 109, 110 position: viii, 7, 15, 18, 22, 39, 40, mukhya: 104, 105 41, 47, 49, 51-53, 55-58, 78, 86, 110, 114, 120, 124, 133, 134, 144, 147

N

naiñöiké-brahmacäré: 44

potency: 2, 12, 106, 116

Prabhupäda: iv, v, vii, 1, 2, 6-15, Nanda: 40, 63, 65 16, 18, 26-28, 30, 32, 33, 35, 36, 42, 50, 59, 61, 67, 75, 78, 80, 81, 82, 83, Närada: 8, 35, 45, 84, 145 85-94, 99, 101-106, 109, 110, 115, natural: viii, 2, 5-7, 9, 12, 14, 18-22, 116, 122, 123, 126, 127, 131-133, 139, 24, 28, 30, 32, 39, 46, 61, 63, 67, 69, 140, 144-147 71-73, 80, 83, 86, 91, 93, 103, 117, practical: iii, 2, 4, 6, 10, 34, 36, 53137, 144, 146 55, 59, 62, 69, 78, 81, 89, 91, 93, 94, nididhyäsana: 49, 72 98, 100, 101, 104, 105, 108, 115, 116, 135, 136, 139, 140, 146 niyamägraha: 101 prakåti: 1 numinous: 1, 27, 143

O

Pratt, David: iii

prayojana: 19, 20, 27, 31, 39, 45, 69, organize: vi, 22, 29, 30, 42, 48, 59, 73, 111, 134, 135, 146 64, 88, 133-135, 138 pressure: 5, 23, 112 principle: iv, vii, viii, 2, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 17, 20, 22, 23, 25, 27-32, 42, paëòita: 17, 74 47-49, 52-55, 63-66, 72, 79, 81-85, paradigm: 6, 22, 25, 85 87-89, 92, 100, 101, 103-105, 109, parent: 5, 21, 22, 34, 42, 48, 49, 51, 110, 117, 126, 132, 134, 145, 146 52, 55, 56, 71, 84, 98, 109, 132, 138, priority: 107 139 priviledge: 33, 73, 117, 147, 118,

P

patience: 12

133, 137, 139

173

propensity: 11, 22, 73, 100, 103, 118, 133 107, 108, 111, 112, 113 revolution: 10, 35, 78, 87, 88, 106, protection: 10, 14, 30, 55, 46, 48, 145 62, 66, 108, 138 RSS: 110 public: 21, 40,

S

purity: 28, 84, 98, 99, 100, 104, sacrifice: 51, 64, 119, 125 105, 106 sadäcära: 13 pursuit: iv, 9, 58, 67, 79, 143, 144

Q

sädhu: 13, 15, 18, 33, 79

sahajiyä: 15, 81 question: 4, 7, 28, 39, 49, 52, 77, 81, saìkértana: 13, 61, 83, 105 90, 104, 113, 115, 117, 120, 123, 136 Säìkhya: 1

R Rädhäräëé: 65

sannyäsa: 15, 16, 18, 19, 41, 44, 68, 82, 92, 111

räjarñi: 26, 143

sannyäsé: 42, 43, 45, 46, 67, 92, 133

school: iii, 3, 5, 8, 15, 20-22, 29, 31, 32, 50, 51, 53, 62, 68, 69, 71, 73, 77, reaction: 12 93, 102, 111, 112, 113, 117, 130, 136, read: v, vii, 5, 6, 8, 12, 14, 24, 30, 138, 139 34, 35, 46, 48, 59, 61, 84, 85, 93, saint: viii, 56, 66, 105, 117, 143 102, 109, 121, 123-126, 138, 139, 140 sambandha: 19, 20, 27, 39, 69, 70, Reader’s Digest: 59 72, 73, 111, 134, 135, 146 reciprocate: 55, 56, 67 Sanätana: 40, 74, 81 relationship: 13, 19, 21, 23, 30, 39sandarbha: 129, 130, 134 43, 51, 53, 55, 56, 59, 60, 67, 68, 70, 71, 74, 80, 84, 85, 111, 129, 134, 135 Sanskrit: 26, 55, 62, 73, 74, 84 rasa: 51, 55, 56, 66

174

Index


çästra: 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 17, 23, 29, 30-33, spiritual: iv, vii, viii, 1-6, 9, 13, 15, 53, 79, 80, 84, 85, 89, 98, 101, 103, 16, 18-20, 22, 24-30, 32, 33, 35, 36, 122, 125-127, 145 40, 45, 54, 66, 67, 74, 77-79, 81, 88, 104-107, 111, 117, 122, 123, 124, scholars: 82-84, 143 127, 129-131, 133, 134, 136, 138, 139, science: iii, iv , 3, 24, 29, 32, 39, 41, 143-146 47, 48, 51, 58, 59, 63, 64, 73, 81, 91, çravaëa: 13, 49, 72 98, 99, 105, 114, 115, 120, 122, 123, Çrémad-Bhägavatam: v, vii, 8, 12, 124, 125, 143, 145, 146 13, 15, 26, 33, 35, 45, 77, 78, 79, 81, scripture: 2, 3, 12, 26, 41, 42, 74, 82, 84, 93, 102, 129, 131, 138, 140, 84, 98, 99, 107, 113, 118, 126, 138, 145, 146, 147 144, 145 çruti: 122, 124, 145 secular: viii, 10 standard: 6, 8, 10, 13, 15, 18, 21, 28, security: 30, 54 30, 46, 73, 80, 81, 92, 102, 105, 106, self-realization: iv, 1, 3, 17, 22, 28, 110, 112, 114, 126, 127, 131, 146 30, 31, 34, 74, 85, 115, 124 stress: viii, 23, 26 sense control: 18, 82, 84, 104, 105

student: iv, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 14, 16, servant: iii, 14, 19, 42, 55, 57, 80, 20, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 31, 32, 33, 34, 53, 62, 68-73, 82, 85, 89, 129, 133, 138 90, 98, 100, 112, 115, 129, 130, 137, sex: 26, 48, 82, 83, 92 138, 146, 147 simple: viii, 2, 6, 10, 13, 21, 24, 34, submissive: 25, 28, 43, 46, 52, 54, 47, 53, 60, 68, 90, 93, 98, 119, 131, 65, 72, 80, 93, 115 138, 139, 146 çüdra: 7, 8, 11, 14, 15, 17, 19, 20, 24, sincere: i, 34, 62, 73, 75, 77, 84, 89, 26, 29, 30, 35, 40-42, 46, 47, 50-52, 106, 131, 132 55, 58, 62, 66-68, 83, 85, 110-112, situation: 6, 10, 12, 13, 17, 19, 21, 115, 117-119, 121, 124, 125, 134, 136, 23, 44, 45, 48, 55, 57, 62, 64, 65, 139 73, 86, 88, 104, 105, 110, 115, 131, surrender: 43, 56, 64, 80, 84, 103, 144, 146 129, 131, 135, 147 skill: iv, 3, 6, 15, 17, 24, 54, 68, 70, system: iii, iv, vii, 2-8, 12, 15, 16, 97, 138 18, 20-22, 24, 25, 29, 30, 35, 40, 48, 53, 54, 64, 66, 69-73, 82, 84, 85, slaughterhouse: 26, 109, 146 88-92, 99, 100, 102, 103, 104, 111, socioloy: iv, 12, 83 112, 118, 120, 122-124, 126, 130, 132, 133, 135, 137, 144, 146 sophist: iii

T

175

V

Vaiñëava: 6, 15, 18, 30, 59, 81, 83, 84, 88, 89, 93, 109, 116, 143, 144, teach: iii, 3, 5, 8, 15, 20-22, 29, 31, 146 32, 50, 51, 53, 62, 68, 69, 71, 73, 77, 93, 102, 111-113, 117, 130, 136, Vaiñëavé: 6 138, 139 Vaiñëavism: 15, 19, 83 teacher: iv, 2-6, 9, 11, 16, 21, 22, 24, 25, 27-29, 31, 33, 52, 53, 69, 71, vaiçya: 7, 8, 11, 14, 17, 19, 29, 30, 72, 85, 89, 90, 113-115, 118, 130- 40, 41, 42, 46, 48, 50, 51, 52, 58, 59, 62, 63, 64, 66, 68, 85, 89, 90, 132, 137-139 106, 108, 111, 115, 118, 119, 124, technocrat: iv 134, 136 technology: iii, 4, 5, 98, 99, 115- vänaprastha: 18, 19, 41, 42, 44-47, 117, 121 88, 111, 133 teenage: 5, 72 Vedänta: iv, 71, 122, 123, 134, 143, temple: 10, 29, 33, 47, 49, 58, 60, 147 61, 63, 64, 66, 87, 92, 98, 99, 120, Vedas: viii, 41, 48, 62, 70, 118, 119, 121, 134 122, 132, 145 temporary: iv, viii, 16, 18, 41, 77, Vedic: vii, vii, 2, 3, 5-8, 10, 14, 18, 97, 98, 100, 103, 104, 114, 120, 124 20-24, 27-30, 32, 33, 39-41, 54, 59, tax: 87

62, 65, 69-72, 77, 80, 81, 83, 84-86, 89, 90, 92, 100-102, 104, 105, 108, thorn: 44, 143 110, 111, 113, 115, 118, 121-123, 126, topic: viii, 5, 10, 16, 35, 73, 74, 77, 130, 134, 143-147 83, 90, 94, 97, 100, 115, 129, 130 vegetarian: 109, 110 traditional: i, iii, 4, 8, 9, 10, 23, 24, 25, 27, 29, 31, 32, 48, 59, 70, 71, 73, vidyä: 1, 34, 97, 110, 114, 122-124, 85, 87, 93, 101, 102, 113, 115, 124, 146 126, 133, 136, 137, 138, 144, 145 villages: 6, 27, 36, 48, 62, 64, 65, 119 theory: 10, 54, 99, 112, 145

U

upädi: 97

viñaya: 56, 57

upakurvaëa-brahmacäré: 44

violence: 26

Upaniñad: 97, 114, 118

vraja-väsé: 55

urban: 9, 33

Vyäsadeva: 84

176

W West: 5, 52, 59, 60, 73, 78, 81, 82, 86, 87, 92, 94, 124 wife: 6, 21, 30, 44, 46, 49, 50, 52, 59, 61, 63, 64, 74, 93, 108, 109, 113, 119, 120, 130, 131, 135, 146 woman: 5-7, 19, 31, 43, 44, 46, 48, 51-58, 60, 73, 80, 86, 90, 92-94, 108, 118, 139 world: vii, viii, 4, 10, 12, 19, 22, 24, 26, 30, 33, 36, 39-41, 48, 53, 57, 59, 60, 62, 63, 66-68, 70, 78, 81-83, 85, 87, 99, 105, 110, 114, 120, 122, 129, 131, 134, 136, 139, 140, 144-147 worship: 10, 13, 80, 86, 120, 132, 144 write: 6, 34, 61, 70, 84, 85, 87, 108, 116, 121-125, 138, 140

Y Yaçodä: 40, 43, 55-57, 65 yajïa: 41, 89, 132 yoga: 64, 98, 130

Z zeitgeist: 93

177


Varëäçrama Book Trust Make Våndävana Villages

In Support of Varëäçrama Dharma This was the first book of His Holiness Bhakti Räghava Swami, published in 2007. The second and enlarged edition was printed in 2010. This book elucidates the four-fold strategy to respiritualize the entire world given by Çréla Prabhupäda in his Essay on Gétä-nagaré, and underlines the role that daiva-varëäçrama-dharma is to play in that revolution. This book also urges the devotees to take up “simple living and high thinking” and develop devotional villages sustained by farming and cow protection. The book is available in several languages: English, French, Spanish, Bahasa, Bengali, Oriya, Telugu, Hindi, and Kannada.

Varëäçrama Education

In Support of Traditional Education This is the second book of His Holiness Bhakti Räghava Swami, published in 2008. This book reveals the interconnection between Vedic education and varëäçrama-dharma and gives an overview of the basic principles of both.

Overhaul and Revert

Promoting the Varëäçrama Mission This book published in 2010 assembles many references on varëäçrama-dharma from Çréla Prabhupäda’s words, mainly the Bhagavad-gétä and Çrémad-Bhägavatam purports. The work, compiled and commented by Çrémän Rämänanda Räya Däsa (BRS), points to the defects of our misdirected society from a Kåñëa conscious point of view. It calls for a return to the values and lifestyle of Vedic culture.

The Fourth Wave Published in 2010, this is a collection of eleven articles on daiva-varëäçrama-dharma by His Holiness Bhakti Räghava Swami, compiled in a book by Çrématé Våndävana Lélä Devé Däsé (BRS).

www.iskconvarnasrama.org

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Traditional Education

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