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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » Index » » Penny for your thoughts » thoughts » » Does Kenton Knepper material really work? (0 Likes) Go to to page page 1 ~2~3 [ [Next Next]]
shriink shr
Posted: Sep 28, 2002 06:00 am
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Hi... Hi. I recently started a thread on instant mentalism. In other words effects that could be done anywhere anytime and not include the usual props, esp cards, etc.. Not look like tricks. Some of the Knepper material probably looks like what I'm looking for. Inner circle 2609 Posts
I don't really want to want to know about his reading readings s I have enough material for that. What I would like to know is, is there anyone on the forum performing or using this stuff with success? Effects like erasing someone's memory memory about their name. name. Some of the the claims made sound great but how practical are they? If anyone out there is using this stuff, I would like to hear about individual psychological effects that have really worked. The new publication, "7 Deceptions" looks great, too. I know there has been a lot on this forum about Kenton before but I haven't seen anyone tell about successes with his work? Thanks Shrink
Darmoe
Posted: Sep 28, 2002 08:50 am
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Funny, a lot of MAGICIANS worry/pan Kenton's thinking... what I think and have experienced, is that few, are willing to put the time and work into Kenton's philosophies to make them work for them. I've proven to myself dozens of times, that if I start applying his logic and watch what I do, how, when, etc. it does work. Special user Ohio 741 Posts
Now some also used the term "Over-rated"... I think what would be more appropriate is "Over-priced"... I love KK and consider him a valued advisor in my life and work. But I do believe his prices are about 25% higher than they need to be... then again, most everything I've obtained from other noted sources has a tendency to be 25-35% higher than it's true value... that's just my opinion based on what one "gains" for the venture asked... a can of worms we needn't open here. The "Value" in what Kenton, Rex and the rest of the Wonder Wizard team extends is really based on the kind of work you do most, your style, and comfort level with doing "real" magick, e.g. being able to get inside a person's head and play with their thoughts. The adepts of NLP type processing can (seemingly) accomplish such manipulations. This frightens some... The other "problem" with KK & Co's material is, that it's not a "gaff," you can hold in your hands and play with. This is a negative in the world of magic trick thinking magicians who envision themselves doing high end Mentalism... Whereas, "Magician's Guilt" typically hinders their ability to perform in a realistic manner; Magician's Habit cripples them from seeing value in applied knowledge and philosophic perspective. Too, many of us (especially we old farts) get stuck in our comfy ruts as to how things work and why and simply don't want to invest the time and energy into learning a new system and thus, change our own way of acting and interacting... but then, that's life I have had very strong success in using KK's material, as have most of the people I know that have purchased it over the years. I know the techniques shared in his Reading style have empowered hundreds who otherwise, would never be able to deliver a solid, personable Reading experience. Hope this helps... "I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
shrink
Posted: Sep 28, 2002 10:32 am
Coming from a NLP & Hypnosis background, I know these things are possible. However However,, there usually are a number of variables needed to get things to work. And even then they don't always work.
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I may well look at the cold reading material he has to offer but not just now. (I already have enough for what I do.) But what I'd really like to hear, is specific succeses with specific effects that anyone has had continuous success with? Inner circle 2609 Posts
It seems to me there are two divides with people who get hold of his stuff. But, up till now the only posts both positive and negative about him, are very, very vague. Having said that, his sales literature is very specific about what you will be able to do without any doubt. Or at least that's what it sounds like to me. So is there anyone out there having specific continuous succeses with the effects as described in his sales literature? They are pretty amazing descriptions. I'm not really talking about his cold reading techniques more of the suggestion effects.. Thanks
xersekis
Posted: Sep 28, 2002 10:47 am
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It is difficult for some to imagine performing without using anything but words, body language and psychological principles. But, that can be done. And it can work.
Special user 591 Posts
However, unlike coins through the table, which should work 100% of the time, unless you get busted, using these means to create or enhance effects may not work always. But not working doesn't mean unsuccessful. If something doesn't work you do something else - or say you have an off night. The difference between getting busted as a magician and a mentalist is vast. But you really can't be busted if you aren't using gimmicked props or sleight of hand. Some may think the effect weak or simple at worst. Or a % thing, but you can really blow people away. Now add this to the effects you do with paper and pen, and all the other combined mentalist methods and you have a very nice array of material. NLP language is designed to help one become more influential. Other NLP approaches are designed for you to create better rapport. Having greater rapport and the ability to influence seem pretty important to me as an entertainer. Imagine what it would be like right now if you were to discover yourself becoming better at what you do beyond your wildest dreams? Would if be worth the time and effort it took to move your abilities so far? Would you consider the investment worth it if you were better able to improve your abilities easily and get more bang for your buck in your performances? Nah - probably you wouldn't... Enjoy! Rex
DonMarco
Posted: Sep 28, 2002 10:47 am
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This is just a thought... and can you tell me what it is, mentalist? Just kidding. Kenton's work is valuable, no doubt, but IMO it is valuable to certain performers and not to others. Let me explain. Regular user 187 Posts
Several years ago, Grinder and Bandler came along and turned the world of therapeutic psychology upside down with their theories. The work was called "Neuro-linguistic Programming". One of these guys was a "programmer" the other a linguist. Both were at the top of their field. The work involved tapping into areas that (with the exception of Erikson) were untouched in psychological therapy. Using "language" (I put that in quotes because it includes: language spoken to other people, yourself, and language not spoken but communicated via other ways, i.e. body language, eye movements, breathing patterns, etc.) Now, out of this ground breaking field of discoveries, surely, there are valuable methods, tecniques, and information for the modern mentalist. KK was the first to take this work and mold it into usable methods for the mentalist. Derren Brown, et al, has jumped on the bandwagon since, and what you have is a very well educated group of performers that, by any layman's account, create the true'st mindreading illusions today. So, KK is a visionary, a pioneer. However, However, in order to properly understand and use this info, it would behoove you to start out getting some traditional NLP training first. Any Borders bookstore will have what you are looking for... or, if you have the cash and the time, (trust me it is SO worth it), take a field trip to Cali and enroll in the courses taught by the originators themselves! If this is not applicable, you can get plenty of affordable info on the web (surf, young man!) and in bookstores all across the world. Hope this helps... "Imagination is the Only Reality"-- Marquis de Sade
shrink
Posted: Sep 28, 2002 10:49 am
Quote:
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On 2002-09-28 09:50, Darmoe wrote: I have had very strong success in using KK's material as have most of the people I know that have purchased it over the years. I know the techniques shared in his Reading style have empowered hundreds who otherwise, would never be able to deliver a solid, personable Reading experience. Inner circle 2609 Posts
Hope this helps...
Darmoe, can you give me specific examples of any of the effects matched up to the sales litrature? Not so much the cold readings but more of the mentalist effects using suggestion? And are they consistent? The descriptions of his booklet are very specific about what you will be able to do.... no maybe's or possibly but actual descriptions of the effects. Erasing memory of persons name, influencing people to do things from writing on a pad, etc.... the latest book about to be released describes effects like stopping peoples pulses, having them see the lines on their hands move etc... I would be interested to hear about these types of effects and specifics about their uses... Thanks xersekis
Posted: Sep 28, 2002 10:49 am
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I agree with Don - it is worth the investment to get actual NLP training and materials as well as Wonder Words and products. Enjoy! Rex Special user 591 Posts
shrink
Posted: Sep 28, 2002 10:56 am
Quote:
Inner circle 2609 Posts
On 2002-09-28 11:47, rex sikes wrote: But not working doesn't mean unsuccessful. If something doesn't work you do something else - or say you have an off night. The difference between getting busted as a magician and a mentalist is vast. But you really can't be busted if you aren't using gimmicked props or sleight of hand. Some may think the effect weak or simple at worst. Or a % thing but you can really blow people away. Now add this to the effects you do with paper and pen, and all the other combined mentalist methods and you have a very nice array of material. NLP language is deisgned to help one become more influential. Other NLP approaches are designed for you to create better rapport. Having greater rapport and the ability to influence seem pretty important to me as an entertainer. Imagine what it would be like right now if you were to discover yourself becoming better at what you do beyond your wildest dreams? Would it be worth the time and effort it took to move your abilities so far? Would you consider the investment worth it if you were better able to improve your abilities easily and get more bang for your buck in your performances? Nah - probably you wouldn't... Enjoy! Rex
Not very specific Rex! Can't anyone come out of trance long enough to give a valid and realistic critque of this work? The sales litrature is very specific... why can't reporting on its application be just the same? If I pay a lot of money for goods I expect them to at least match the decription... Yes I have already discoverd myself becoming better many times in the past, usually through specific feedback....
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So tell me, how will I become better... specifically? DonMarco
Posted: Sep 28, 2002 11:22 am
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Shrink, In terms of "coming out of a trance" let me just say that there is nothing like that involved. Become educated on the topic, then post. "Imagination is the Only Reality"-- Marquis de Sade
Regular user 187 Posts
openatlast
Posted: Sep 28, 2002 11:26 am
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By saying you come from an NLP background, I'm assuming you had some formal training. If that's the case, I doubt you'll be pleased with Kenton's stuff. He often makes good points and there are useful ideas burried within, but for someone with NLP knowledge, this is no where near worth the price. New user Shadow of the Castle 74 Posts
xersekis
Take what you already know and apply it to your performance. Be your own critic & coach. Posted: Sep 28, 2002 12:01 pm
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Well, I have had a quarter of a centruy involvement training NLP around the globe, developing applications, working hand in hand with developers and contributors to the field and I had always dreamed of offering NLP to the "magic" community in some form of program or book. Kenton beat me too it. Special user 591 Posts
Having half my life tied up in NLP and more than 3/4s tied up in magic, performing, acting, etc... I still think Wonder Words is a good introductory product to aspects of NLP and aspects of magic, mentalism and performance. As an experienced person in NLP I did not learn new NLP notions. Nothing surprised me and I might of presented some of the concepts a bit differently, or more in depth. In other words as an NLP person myself, my product may have addressed NLP different from how Kenton did. However, having said that, with whatever minor construed limitations there may be in Wonder Words - I found it an excellent source for good effects, and for beginning to apply NLP concepts to one's magic and performance. So it is true an expereinced NLP person may evaluate a work differently than a newbie (at least I would hope that would be the case) I still find value in the work and recommend it. I also recommend my home study products and training in NLP (even though I am not currently offering them for sale) and I do think a more in depth study of NLP is worthy of exploration and the cost. I believe one can start applying some NLP using Wonder Words and that provides a great advantage for many people. For those more versed in NLP they should look at the construction of the product, where it is good and not so good or where it could benefit from some additions or subtractions or reworkings and then still consider how to utilze what they know and apply it to their area of expertise in magic. I was disappointed when I learned of Wonder Words because someone beat me to the punch of a long time dream. I was not disappointed in the product. And again I recommend it. Enjoy! Rex
Darmoe
Posted: Sep 28, 2002 12:11 pm
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O.k. I'll ignore Openatlast's note above in that he/she has a personal problem with the KK material and is a bit oblivious to the fact that Rex works closely with KK and is one of the more "legit" NLP "experts" in the country...
Special user Ohio 741 Posts
To answer the others... well, several have already stated, as I did, you must learn to work with this stuff. It is not a gimmick or device or something that's automatic. Just as Psychological forces require particular intonements and body language from time to time for the sake of "selling the idea" so does a lot of this material. Now, I can't go into details but there is another, (a member here in fact) putting out some material soon on this thing of "wipeing out memory" on clients. I've seen it done, had it done, and it is a very cool "priceless" work of business ONCE MASTERED! That's the catch... it takes time, patience and practice. Long before KK, there was a wonderful little man name Orville Meyer who, along with Sharp, put out a whole lot of similar thoughts for mentalism, decades prior to Kenton, Rex or any of the other Wonder Wizards started exploiting "The Power of Suggestion" as they do (NLP). In short, this stuff ain't new! It is time proven. At the same time, it's only be proven by those willing to invest the time and effort to cultivate said skills, knowledge and perspectives. In other words, your success in using KK's material is entirely up to YOU! Best of luck! "I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism Posted: Sep 28, 2002 12:18 pm
shrink
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Quote:
On 2002-09-28 12:22, DonMarco wrote: Shrink,
Inner circle 2609 Posts
In terms of "coming out of a trance" let me just say that there is nothing like that involved. Become educated on the topic, then post.
All I can see, is a lot of people in trance when it comes to evaluating Knepper's work.... I've been doing NLP breakthroughs for around 8 years.. and was first certified around 10 years ago. Stage hypnosis around 13 years. I know the value of NLP in just about everything you do including performing... I'm interested in the specific effects described, such as getting members of the audience to act on suggestions written down for example... and the new booklet "7 Deceptions" has a whole range of specific effects in it.. which looks good, if they work enough to to be worthwhile.. I was only asking for a hit success rate on specifics... why are the words "specific examples of successes" so hard to process? Anyway I will wait to see what feedback on the new publication is like... Thanks DonMarco
Posted: Sep 28, 2002 12:53 pm
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Shrink,
Regular user 187 Posts
In reading my last post directed towards you, I realize, I may have been a bit rude... I apologize, as I now recognize the fact that you ARE educated in the subject at hand... in terms of specific effects, I think it has to do entirely with your persona and your comfort level... if you feel confident using eye-accessing cues and the like, a mere moment of meditation (or a fat joint) will lead you to the right effect. However, forgive me for this, but it may not be of any benefit to learn other's effects in this vain, because, simply put... use what YOU have learned in all of your years of NLP. We can make anything out of anything, and I know that's vague, but take the Holy Bible for example... "Judas hanged himself... go and do thou likewise" ...catch my meaning? I respect your opinion, shrink, on this and other posts and am exited to read what you have to say to extenuate the current topic. "Imagination is the Only Reality"-- Marquis de Sade
xersekis
Posted: Sep 28, 2002 01:28 pm
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Wow, I just typed a bunch only to have it vanish before my eyes. I'll try to redo some of it. Special user 591 Posts
It is difficult to give a specific answer to a general question regarding success. However, since it has been refined in terms of effects - there are probably somewhere between 18 and more than a couple dozen effects in the three volume series. Vol 1. effects are on audio tape and in two and three they are in booklet form. Contributors include Kenton, Banachek., Dan Harlan, Hilford, Caldwell, and others. I think there are some nice items. As for the 7 Deceptions by Luke Jeremy, there are about 7 effects. Are they for everyone - no, probably not. Are they good - yes, seem to be. Have not tried any yet. Are they 100% successful all the time - no. But, like good equivoque they are doable. Consider equivoque as the art of using language to get a result - well Wonder Words, 7 deceptions employs the same premise. Use lanague to create and enhance your effects and effectiveness. But no, nothing is sure fire and may take quite some work to make work and get regular results with. BUT, I loved Luke's thinking, his applying NLP principles to effects and patter. I enjoyed his chutzpah and his innovation. I was glad as a NLP'er to see what people are attempting to do and do with NLP and hypnotic language patterns. So yeah, I think there is some pretty good stuff. Plus there are some tips and hints in WW about directing attention, misdirection, creating ambiguity between what audience hears and participant experiences, readings, tag lines, creating word pictures, metaphors and emotional impact. And more. Is WW the end all to end all. No, - it is more of a beginning and a work in progress. Worth it, - Yeah, I believe so. 7 deceptions worth it, I believe so. Is everything Kenton puts out worth it - my guess is sure - but I haven't yet seen it all. See for me, it is more about how people think about the art, the concepts and the principles, it is more about a body of work, about moving in a direction, than a particular piece of the puzzle. Are there things I have been disappointed with - yeah, usually a prop, something I THOUGHT would work as described but found that IT didn't. The difference with NLP is that I AM THE WORK - IT IS UP TO ME - NLP is not a prop.
Writting about it can be strong or weak. There are both strengths and weaknesses in Wonder Words and 7 deceptions but the strengths outweigh any shortcoming. I hope this helps - but it is only my opinon. Enjoy! Rex shrink
Posted: Sep 28, 2002 02:05 pm
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Ok... Now.. take a deep breath everyone. I'm sure all those who love Kneppers work have USED IT? (I hope that would be the case) What specific effects described in his boo klets, etc... have you managed to recreate following the manuscripts? The sales lit claims YOU will be able to create those "miracles". So who has had succes in re-creating them? Inner circle 2609 Posts
How many times have you re-created them.. and what was the percentage of hits as opposed to misses? Where, when and what kind of situations did you find they worked best? Now I realise there will be variables in performers backgrounds etc.. but answering questions such as these for anyone who uses the material is the only way to evaluate its effectiveness. And if you bought the manuscripts and aren't using it why? Just about everyone who has bought Kentonism or who buys 7 deceptions should be able to create those specific effects at least a percentage of the time, or the sales literature is misleading. There are many people on here who swear by him so surely there must be some "data" to look at?
Mikael Eriksson
Posted: Sep 28, 2002 05:15 pm
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Can it be that some people just are not made up for doing Kenton-type material? Let me give an example from a totally different profession.
Inner circle Sweden 1015 Posts
Today I visited a friend that had a pitch and sold cosmetics. She had a continuous flow of people looking, buying and so on. She had to leave for a few minutes, and asked me to stand there instead of her. As I did so (twice) I noticed that no one was interested. And that´s my experience in all kinds of selling. When I sell, no one buys. In this particular case it could of course be that they thought it was strange with a man selling cosmetics, but there have been numerous other instances. And please do not say: "If you can´t sell things, you can´t sell your act...", because I can. But it seems like some people do not seem to be the kind that people would believe to be able to have supernatural powers, like reading thoughts, and so on. Mikael Hi shrink. I hope this is at least partially what you asked for. I have used, and use what I call the animal test from Wonder Words. I don´t remember if that´s the correct name. It´s reliable and very very valuable. But it´s not an effect as such. It´s not magic. But the audience loves it... Mikael
David_Libertine
Posted: Sep 28, 2002 06:11 pm
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Quote:
Regular user Lake Charles, LA 142 Posts
On 2002-09-28 15:05, shrink wrote: What specific effects described in his booklets, etc... have you managed to recreate following the manuscripts?
Perhaps this will help. Because Kentons work does not involve gaffs and solely depends on the use of linguistic deceptions... To tip a specific effect would be "telling the secret". I personally use the techniques found in Wonder Words every day with people from all walks. Not just during effects, but in daily conversations. The only other thing I can say is that I have given Kenton a lot of money for his products and have never felt overcharged, dissappointed, or that the material wasn't worth every dollar paid. If you use the material and weave it into your persona you can really create miracles. I have combined the Psychokinetic Silverware material by Banacheck, the Wonder Words material of Kenton, and a few twists of my own and have totally killed spectators that are totally jaded where magic is concerned. They still can't stop talking about some of the things I've done with them. If nothing said here by me or the others has helped.. I'm sorry. Perhaps you should go to your local bookstore and pick up a copy of
"Get Anyone To Do Anything" by Dr. David Lieberman. His techniques are based in similar practices and studies but Kenton's material goes far beyond Dr. Lieberman's. Boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth. Neo: What truth? Boy: There is no spoon. Neo: There is no spoon? Boy: Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.
AllThumbs
Posted: Sep 28, 2002 11:15 pm
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Mikael with reference to your previous post. There is a general rule with selling...you have to know your product, so don't feel too disheartened by being unable to sell the cosmetics. Also I suspect it was because you weren't a woman able to give advice to another woman. Rarely have I seen a man at a cosmetic counter in a store. Veteran user UK 376 Posts
shrink
There is also another rule that a wise bus driver told me once: "men like like talking to women, and women like talking to women - so if you are selling something use a woman", of course there are exceptions. The above is all rubbish, except that which you chose to believe Posted: Sep 29, 2002 06:03 am
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I have used NLP for many years...techniques like "Decision Destroyer" which allows you to unmake decisions people make about themselves or something they purchased do work ....not only that I could give specific examples. Around 50 to 60% of clients I have seen can't remember what their problem was after about an hour and a half talking about it (initial part of a 6 hour process).. Inner circle 2609 Posts
I have been able to induce hypnosis conversationally over the phone and install a key re-induction word which I was able to use successfully many occasions after. I have used specific language patterns which I developed and taught to Kitchen sales people to get customers into the buying state without even seeing or talking about kitchens which not only worked ....I can give specific results..without giving away the patterns.. I once used e-mail to get a date using hypnotic suggestions weaved into a cold reading. The girl I sent it to didn't have pc so she used her friends. Her friend also read the e-mail and phoned me behind her back als wanting to make a date as she thought I was her perfect man. Collapsing Anchors, dismantling phobias, dissolving problems can all be done in the framework of a conversation...not only that I could recite numerous examples as well as demonstrate them.. Anyone who has studied NLP and used it could recite numerous occasions where they re-created what they intended or when specific techniques worked. I would like to buy a copy of 7 deceptions it looks good. Kentonism also looks good however, since no one so far has been able to confirm that they can re-produce those specific effects described and claimed in the sales litrature that "YOU" will be able to recreate those "miracles" then there does seem to be some misleading imformation surrounding these products.... I will wait to see the reviews from 7 deceptions ...I think ive decided about Kentonism already looks like buyers are selling 7 Deceptions already!!! http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......tart=0#1
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