InterviewwithJacquesLacan This This inte interv rvie iew, w, cond conduc ucte ted d by Laca Lacan’ n’s s frie friend nd Made Madele lein ine e Chap Chapsa sal, l, appe appear ared ed in L’Express on 31st Clefs pour pour la psy psycha chana nalys lysee ’ (‘Ke 31st May May 1957 1957 unde under r the the titl title e ‘ Clefs (‘Keys ys to Psychoanalysis’). Interviewer:Apsychoanalystisveryintimidating.Onehasthefeelingthathecould manip manipula ulateyou teyou ashe wishes wishes,, that that heknows more moretha than n you aboutthe aboutthe motive motives s of youractions. Dr.Lacan:Don'texaggerate.Doyouthinkthatthiseffectisexclusivetothepsychoanalyst?Aneconomist,formany,isasmysteriousasananalyst.Inourtime,itisthe expert expert who intimida intimidates. tes. With psychology psychology,, even even when seen as a science, science, everyone everyone thoughttheyhadtheinsider'strack.Now,withpsychoanalysis,wehavethefeeling ofhavinglostthatprivilege;thattheanalystcouldbecapableofseeingsomething qui quite secr secre et in what hat app appears to you you to be quite uite cle clear. There here you you lie lie naked ked, uncovered,underawell-informedeye,andwithoutknowingwhatyouareshowing him. THEOTHERSUBJECT Interviewer:Thisisasort Interviewer:Thisisasortofterrorism.One ofterrorism.Onefeelsviolently feelsviolentlytornoutfromone tornoutfromoneself. self. Dr.Lacan:Psychoanalysis,intheorderofman,has,infact,allthesubversiveand scandalous scandalous features features thattheCope thatthe Copernic rnicande-cen ande-centeri teringhad nghad inthe cosmic cosmicorde order:the r:the earth, earth, that that place place inhabi inhabited ted by man, man, is nolon no longer ger the center center of the univer universe! se! Well! Well! Psychoanalysisannouncesthatyouarenolongerthecenterofyourself,sincethere is anoth another er subjec subject t within within you, you, the Uncons Unconscio cious. us. It was, was, at first, first, not well-a well-acce ccepte pted d news.Theso-calledirrationalismwhichhasbeenusedtodefineFreud!Whenitis exactlythecontrary:notonlydidherationalizeallthathadresistedrationalization unti until l he came came along long, , but he even ven show showe ed tha that in actio ction n the there is a proce rocess ss of reasoninggoingon;Imean,somethingthatisreasoningandfunctioninglogically, withouttheknowled withouttheknowledgeof geofthesubje thesubject.Allof ct.Allof this, viewedclassi viewedclassically cally,as ,as beingin beinginthe the fieldoftheirrational;let's fieldoftheirrational;let'scallitthefield callitthefieldofpassion. ofpassion. This This is precis precisely ely what what he was not forgiv forgiven en for. for. His introd introduct uction ion of the notion notion of sexu sexual al forc forces es that that take take over over the the subj subjec ect t with withou out t warn warnin ing, g, nor nor logi logic, c, was was stil still l admi admitt tted ed; ; but but that that sexu sexual alit ity y is a plac place e of spee speech ch,, that that neur neuros osis is is an illn illnes ess s that that speak speaks, s, here here is someth somethin ing g stran strange, ge, and and even even his discip disciples les prefer prefer that that wespeak of somethingelse. Ananalystmustnotbeseenasa"soulengineer";he'snotaphysician,hedoesnot proceedbyestablishingcause-effectrelations;hisscienceisareading,it'sareading ofsense. This This is why, why, undo undoub ubte tedl dly, y, with withou out t know knowin ing g exac exactl tly y what what is hidd hidden en behi behind nd his his office'sdoor,heiscommonlyconsideredasasorcerer,anevengreateronethanthe others.
1
Interviewer:Andwhohasdiscoveredtheseterriblesecrets? Dr.Lacan:Itisbettertospecifythenatureofthesesecrets.Theyarenotthesecrets of nature, those discovered by biological and physical sciences. If psychoanalysis clarifiessomefactsofsexuality,itisnotbyaimingatthemintheirownreality,not inbiologicalexperience. ARTICULATEDANDDECIPHERABLE Interviewer:But,Freud,hediddiscover,inthesamewayonediscoversanunknown continent,anewdimensionofpsychiclife,thatiscalled"unconscious"orsomething else?FreudisChristopherColumbus! Dr.Lacan:Theknowledgethatthereisapartofthepsychicfunctionsthatareoutof consciousreach,wedidnotneedtowaitforFreudtoknowthis! Ifyouwantacomparison,FreudisinsteadChampollion!TheFreudianexperienceis not at the level of the organization of instincts and vital forces. The Freudian experiencediscovers them only byexerting itself, ifI may say so, ona secondary force. Itis not the instinctualeffects intheir primaryforcethatFreuddeals with. Thatwhichisanalyzableisso,becauseitisalreadyarticulatedinwhatmakesupthe singularityofthesubject'shistory.Thesubjectcanrecognizehimselfinit,insofaras psychoanalysisallowsthetransferenceofthisarticulation. Inotherwords,whenthesubject"represses",thisdoesnotmeanthatthesubject refuses to gain consciousness of something like an instinct, like, for example, a sexual instinct that wouldmanifest itself in a homosexual form --no, the subject does not refuse his homosexuality, he represses the speech where this homosexualityhas the roleofa signifier.You see, itis not avague, dubious thing which is repressed; it is not a sort of need, or tendency, that could have been articulated(andthencan'tbearticulated becauseit isrepressed);it isa discourse thatisalreadyarticulated,alreadyformulatedinalanguage.It'sallthere. Interviewer:Yousaythatthesubjectrepressesadiscoursearticulatedinalanguage. Yet,wedonotfeelourselvestobetherewhenwe'refacetofacewithapersonwith psychological difficulties, a timid person, for example, or an obsessional. Their conductseemsabsurd,incoherent;andifweguessthatitmightmeansomething, thiswouldbeimprecise,afalteringtone,sensedatalevellowerthanthelevelof language. And oneself, when one feels ridden by obscure forces that we call neurotic, these forces manifest themselves precisely by irrational actions , accompaniedbyconfusionandangst! Dr. Lacan: Symptoms, those you believe you recognize, seem to you irrational because you take them in an isolated manner, and you want to interpret them directly. For example, takethe Egyptian hieroglyphics.As long aswe look for the direct meaning of vultures, chickens, the standing, sitting, or moving men, the writing remains indecipherable. When taken by itself, the sign "vulture" means nothing;itonlyfindsitssignifyingvaluewhentakenwithinthecontextofthesetof
2
thesystemtowhichitbelongs.Well,analysisdealswiththisorderofphenomena. They belong to theorder of language ("langagier"in French).Apsychoanalystis not an explorerof an unknown continent, or of greatdepths; heis a linguist. He learns todecipher the writingwhichis underhis eyes, presenttothesightof all; however,thatwritingremainsindecipherableifwelackitslaws,itskey. REPRESSIONOFTRUTH Interviewer:Yousaythatthiswritingis"presenttothesightofall".Yet,ifFreudhas saidsomethingnew,itwasthatinpsychiclifeweareillbecauseweconceal,wehide apartofoneself,werepress.Butthehieroglyphicsthemselveswerenotrepressed, theywerewrittenonstone.Soyourcomparisoncannotbecomplete? Dr. Lacan:Onthecontrary, itmustbe takenliterally. What isto be decipheredin psychicanalysisis allthetimethere,presentsince thebeginning.Youspeakabout repression,forgettingsomething.AsFreudformulatedit,repressionisinseparable from the phenomenon of "the return of the repressed". Something continues to function,somethingcontinuestospeakintheplacewhereitwasrepressed.Thanks tothiswecanlocatetheplaceofrepressionandoftheillness,saying"itisthere". This notion is difficult to understand because when we speak of repression we imagineimmediatelyapressure,avesicularpressure,forexample.Thatis,avague mass,undefined,exertingallitsweightagainstadoorthatwerefusetoopen.Now, inpsychoanalysis,repressionisnottherepressionofa thing,itisarepressionofa truth.Whathappensthen,whenwewanttorepressatruth?Thewholehistoryof tyrannyistheretogivetheanswer:Itisexpressedelsewhere,inanotherregister,in a ciphered, clandestine language. Well, this is exactly what is produced with consciousness. Truth, the repressed, will persist, though transposed to another language, the neuroticlanguage.Exceptthatwearenolongercapableofsayingatthatmoment who is the subject speaking; but, that "it" speaks, that it continues to speak. It happens that it is entirely decipherable in the manner that we are decipherable, whichmeans,notwithoutdifficulty,it'salostwriting. Truthhasnotbeenannihilated;ithasnotfallenintoanabyss.Itisstillthere,given, present,butturnedintounconscious.Thesubjectwhohasrepressedtruthisnotthe masteranymore,heisnotatthecenterofhisdiscourse;thingscontinuetofunction aloneanddiscoursecontinuestoarticulateitself,but"outsidethesubject."Andthis place,this"outsidethesubject,"isexactlywhatwecalltheunconscious. Youcanclearlyseethatwhatwehavelostisnotthetruth;itisthekeytothenew languageinwhichitisexpressedfromthenon. THEHAMMOCK Interviewer:Isn'tthisyourowninterpretation?ItseemsthatitisnotFreud's?
3
Dr. Lacan: Read "The Interpretation of Dreams", read "The Psychopathology of EverydayLife",read"JokesandtheirrelationtotheUnconscious".Itisenoughto open these works,whateverthepage,to find clearlywhatI'mspeakingabout.The term"censorship",forexample.WhydidFreud choose itstraightaway,evenatthe level of the interpretation of dreams, to designate this restraining insistence, the repressing force? Censorship, as we know, is this anasthasia, this constraint that worksusingapairofscissors.Andonwhat?Notonwhateverpassesbyintheair, but rather on what is susceptible of being printed, in a discourse, a discourse expressedinalanguage. Yes,thelinguisticmethodispresentineverypageofFreud'swork;allthetimehe gives references, analogies, linguistic parallels. And then, in the end, in psychoanalysis, you only ask one thing of the patient, only one thing, that is, to speak.Ifpsychoanalysisexists,andifithasitseffects,itisonlywithinthedomainof confessionandofspeech. Yet,forFreud,asforme,humanlanguagedoesnotspringupforhumanbeingslikea fountain. Look at the way that, ordinarily, how a child gains experience is representedforus:hestickshisfingeronaburningpan,heburnshimself.Starting fromthatmomentthatheencountershotandcold,danger,itismaintainedthatall thatremainsforhimtodoistodeduce,toreconstructallofcivilization. Thatisabsurd.Startingwiththefactthatheburnshimself,heisplacedfacetoface withsomethingwhichismuchmoreimportantthanthediscoveryofhotandcold. Infact,heburnshimselfandthenthereisalwayssomeonewhogiveshimawhole speechaboutit.Indeed,thechildwillhaveamuchhardertimeenteringintothis linguisticdiscoursethatwehavesubmergedhiminto,thantolearntoavoidthehot pan. Inotherwords,themanwhoisbornintoexistencedealsfirstwithlanguage;thisis agiven.Heisevencaughtinitbeforehisbirth.Doesn'thehaveacivilstatus?Yes, the child who is to be born is already, from head to toe, caught in this language hammockthatreceiveshimandatthesametimeimprisonshim. CLEARLY,INEACHCASE Interviewer: What renders the acceptance of relating neurotic symptoms to a perfectlyarticulatedlanguagedifficultisthefactthatwedon'tseetowhomtheyare addressed.Theyarenotmadeforanyone,sincetheillperson,inparticular,theill person,himself,doesnotunderstandthem,andaspecialistisneededtodecipher them! Maybe, the hieroglyphics have become incomprehensible, but, at the time theywereused,theyweremadetocommunicatecertainthingstocertainpeople.So whatisthisneuroticlanguage?Itisnotonlyadeadlanguage,it'snotonlyaprivate language,sinceitisincomprehensibletooneself?Andthen,alanguageissomething thatweuse.Thisone,onthecontraryisinfringedupon.Taketheobsessional.He wouldcertainlyliketogetridofhisfixedidea,getoutofthetrap.
4
Dr.Lacan:Thesearepreciselytheparadoxesthataretheobjectofdiscovery.And yet,iflanguagewerenotaddressedtoanOther,itcouldnotbeunderstoodthanksto anotherinpsychoanalysis.Therestis amatterof recognizingwhatitis,andtodo this, it is necessary to situate it in a case; this requires a long time to develop; otherwise it'sa jumble of incomprehension.Nevertheless,it is there, where what I'm talking about can appear clearly: the way the repressed discourse of the unconsciousistranslatedintheregisterofthesymptom.Andyoucanseetowhat point this is precise. You mentioned the obsessional. Follow Freud's observation which we find in "The Five Psychoanalyses", entitled "The Ratman". The Ratman wasagreatobsessional.AyoungmanofhighereducationwhofindsFreudinVienna totellhimthathesuffersfromobsessions.Theyaresometimesintenseworriesin relation to his beloved, and sometimes the desire to commit impulsive acts, like cuttinghisthroat,orheconstructsforhimselfinterdictionsconcerninginsignificant things. THERATMAN Interviewer:Andwhataboutsexuality? Dr. Lacan: There we find an error of the term! Obsessional does not necessarily meansexualobsession,notevenobsessionforthis,orforthatinparticular;tobean obsessional means to find oneself caught in a mechanism, in a trap increasingly demandingandendless.Hehastoaccomplishanact,aduty;aspecialanxietytakes overtheobsessional.Willhebeabletoaccomplishit?Oncehehasdoneit,hesuffers thetorturingneedtoverifyit,buthedoesn'tdarebecausehefearshewillappearas a crazy man, because at the same time he knows well he did accomplish it; this commitshimto greaterandgreatercyclesof verification,precaution, justification. Takeninthiswaybyaninnerwhirlwind,itisimpossibleforhimtofindastateof tranquillity, of satisfaction. Nevertheless, the great obsessional is far from being delirious. He has no conviction whatsoever, only a kind a necessity, totally ambiguous, that renders him incredibly unhappy, suffering, hopeless, left to an unexplainable insistence that comes from within himself, and that he does not understand. Theobsessionalneuroticiscommonandcangounnoticed,ifwearenotattentiveto thelittlesignsthatbetrayhim.Thepeoplesufferingfromthisillnessoccupytheir social positions well,even if theirlife is ravaged, eroded by suffering and by the developmentofthisneurosis.I'veknownpeoplewhoheldimportantpositions,and not only honorary, but positions of leadership, people with great and extended responsibilities, that they assumed completely, but they were not in anyway less caught,alldaylong,asthepreyoftheirobsessions. ThiswasthecaseoftheRatman,distressed,trappedbythereturnofhissymptoms, that lead him toconsult FreudinVienna, wherethe Ratman was participating in importantmilitaryexercisesas anarmyreserveofficial.HeaskedFreudforadvice withregardtoaveryboringstoryofadebtheowedtothemailofficewherehehad sentapairofglasses,astorythathelosestrackof.Ifwefollowhim,literally,rightto
5
hisdoubts,wefindinthescenariocreatedbyhissymptom,ascenariothatconcerns fourpersons,theveryeventsthatledtothemarriageof whichthesubjectwasthe fruit, trait bytrait, transposed into a vast set of mannerisms, without the subject suspectinganything. Interviewer:Whatstories? Dr.Lacan:Afraudulentdebtofhisfather,amilitaryman,grew.Thefatherlosthis militaryrankduetohavingcommittedacrime;therewasaloanthatallowedhimto payhisdebt,andtheunclearaspectoftherestitutionofthemoneytothefriendwho cametohisaid,andfinallyabetrayedloveduetoamarriagethatgavehimstatus. During his childhood, the Ratman had heard these stories, some light-hearted, otherscovert.Whatisstrikingisthefactthatwhatreturnsfromtherepressedisnot a particular event or trauma; it is the dramatic constellation that ruled over his birth, his prehistory. He is descended from a legendary past. This prehistory reappears viathe symptomsthatrepresent thatpre-history in an unrecognizable form,thatweaveitintomyth,representedbythesubjectwithoutawareness.Since it is transposed like a language or a writing, maybe transposed into another language,withothersigns;itisrewrittenwithoutthemodificationoftheliaisons; likeafigureingeometryistransformedfromaspheretoaplane,whichdoesnot necessarilymeanthatanyfigurecantransformitselfintoanyotherfigure. Interviewer:So,whenthisstoryisupdated,whatcomesnext? Dr.Lacan:Listenwell...Ihavenotsaidthatthecureofaneurosisisaccomplished withthis.YouknowverywellthatinthecureoftheRatmanthereissomethingelse thatIcannottalkabouthere.Ifaprehistorysufficedfortheoriginofconsciousness, everyonewould bea neurotic. Itis linked tothe way the subject assumes things, accepts them or represses them. And why do certain people repress certain things?Anyway,takethetimetoreadtheRatmanusingthiskeythattraverses it, partbypart;thetranspositionintoanotherfigurativelanguage,totallyunperceived bythesubject,ofsomethingthatcanonlybeunderstoodasadiscourse. TOKNOWMOREANDBETTER Interviewer:Itcouldbethatrepressedtruthisarticulated,asyousay,inadiscourse withravagingeffects.Butinthecaseofsomeonewhocomestoyou,itisnotbecause he searches for the truth. He is someone who suffers horribly, and wants to be relievedfromhispain.IfIremembercorrectlythestoryoftheRatman,therewas alsoafantasyofrats. Dr.Lacan:Inotherwords,whileyouworryabouttruth,there'samanwhosuffers. Inanycase,beforeusinganinstrument,it'simportanttoknowwhatitis,howitis manufactured! Psychoanalysis is a terribly efficient instrument, and because it is moreandmoreaprestigiousinstrument,weruntheriskofusingitwithapurpose forwhichitwasnotmadefor,andinthiswaywemaydegradeit.
6
Therefore it is necessary to depart from the essential: what is it, this technique, what'sitspurpose,whatareitseffects,theeffectsthatithasbyitssimpleandpure application? Well!Thephenomenapropertopsychoanalysisareoftheorderoflanguage.Thatis, thespokenrecognitionofthemajorelementsofthesubject'shistory,ahistorythat hasbeencut,interrupted,thathasfallenontotheundersideofdiscourse.Inrelation totheeffectsthatwedefineasbelongingtoanalysis,theanalyticaleffects,aswesay --mechanical or electrical effects --the analytical effects are of the nature of the return of the repressed discourse.I can assure you that atthe very moment you haveputthesubjectonthecouchandyouhaveexplainedtohimtheanalyticalrule asbriefly aspossible, the subject isalreadyintroduced into the dimension ofthe searchforhistruth.Yes,justfromthefactofhavingtospeak,ashemustinfrontof another, the silence of another - a silence which is neither approving nor disapproving,butratherattentive-hefeelsitasanexpectation,andthisexpectation isthatofthetruth. And also, he feels driven by the prejudice that we had mentioned before:that of believingthatthisother,theexpert,theanalyst,knowssomethingabouthimthathe himselfisunawareof;thepresenceofthetruthisfortified,itisthereinanimplicit state. Theillpersonsuffersbutherealizesthatthepathtotakeinordertogobeyond,to ameliorate his suffering, is of the order of the truth: to know more and to know better. Interviewer: Then, man is a being of language? This would be the new representationofmanthatweowetoFreud;manissomeonewhospeaks? Dr. Lacan: Is language the essence of man? This is question which is not of disinteresttome,andIdonotdetestthatpeoplewhoareinterestedinwhatIsay are, in fact, interested in this, but it is an interest of a different order, and as I sometimessay,it'sthesideevent. Idon'taskmyself"whospeaks?";Itrytoposethequestioninadifferentway,ina morepreciselyformulatedway.Iask"Fromwheredoesitspeak?"Inotherwords,if Ihavetriedtoelaboratesomething,itisnotametaphysicaltheorybutatheoryof intersubjectivity.SinceFreud,thecenterofmanisnotwherewethoughtitwas;one hastogoonfromthere. Interviewer:Ifwhatcountsisto speak,tofind one'sowntruth throughwordsand confession,wouldnotanalysisbecomeasubstituteforreligiousconfession? Dr.Lacan:Iamnotauthorizedtotalktoyouaboutreligiousmatters,butImustsay that confession is a sacrament which is not there to satisfy a certain need for confiding...Theresponse,evenifconsoling,encouraging,evenifdirective,ofapriest doesnotpretendtorenderconfessionefficient.
7
Interviewer: From the point of view of dogma, you are certainly right. However, confessionisrelated,atleastforatimewhichdoesnotcovertheentireChristian era,towhatiscalledthedirectionofconscience.Wouldthisnotberelatedtothe fieldofpsychoanalysis?Thatis,tomakesomeoneconfesshisactionsandintentions, toguideaspiritwhosearchesforhistruth? Dr. Lacan: The direction of conscience has been judged in different manners by spiritualindividualsthemselves.Wehaveevenseenincertaincases,thatthiscanbe asourceofavarietyofabusivepractices. Inotherterms,itisuptothemembersofreligiousorderstodeterminetheplace and significance they give to conscience.But it seems to me that no director of consciencewouldbealarmedbyatechniquewhoseobjectiveistorevealthetruth. I'veseenhowworthymembersofreligiouscommunitieshavetakenastandinvery delicate affairs, where something that we call family honor was at stake. I have alwaysseenthemdecidethattokeeptruthhiddenhasravagingconsequences.And, all directors of conscience will tell you that the bane of their existences are obsessionalandoverlyscrupulouspersons;theydon'treallyknowhowtodealwith them:themoretheytrytocalmthemdown,theworseitgets;themoretheytryto explain and give them reasons, the more people come to them with absurd questions. Yet,analyticaltruthis not asmysterious,oras secret,soasto not allowus tosee thatpeoplewithatalentfordirectingconsciencesseetruthrisespontaneously.I’ve known among members of religious orders people who had understood that a penitent who complained about her needs for impurity, needed to be taken to anotherlevel:didshebehavejustlywithherchildrenandhermaid?Andthrough thisbrutalreminder,theyobtainedincrediblysurprisingeffects.Inmyopinion,the directorsofconsciencecannotfindfaultwithpsychoanalysis;theycanevenfindin itsomeusefulideas. DISTURBINGREVERSAL Interviewer:Perhaps,butispsychoanalysiswellperceived?Inthereligiousdomain itwouldbeconsideredratheradevil'sscience. Dr. Lacan: I think times have changed. Undoubtedly, after Freud invented psychoanalysis, itwas consideredfor a long time asa subversive and scandalous science.Itwasnotaboutbelievinginitornot.Peoplewereviolentlyopposedtoit with the excuse that analyzed persons would be at the mercy of all their raging desires, would do whatever. As of today, recognized as a science or not, psychoanalysis has entered our habits, and positions have been reversed: when someone does not behave normally, when he is considered as scandalous in his socialcircle,wespeakofsendinghimtoapsychoanalyst!Allthisdoesnotlieinthe orderofwhatiscalledwiththetootechnicalterm"resistancetopsychoanalysis", butrather"massobjection".
8
The fear to lose one's originality, of being reduced to a common level, is also frequent.Onehastosaythatwiththenotionof"adaptation"adoctrineofnaturehas beenproducedtoengenderconfusionandfromthereonanxiety. It has beenwritten that psychoanalysis has as its objective the adaptation of the subject, not precisely to his external environment, his life or his real needs; this means the ratification of an analysis would be to become the perfect father, the modelhusband,theidealcitizen,insum,someonewhohasnothinglefttodiscuss. All this is completely false. Just as false as the first prejudice that conceives psychoanalysisasameanstototalliberation. Interviewer: Don't you thinkthat that whichpeople fear most, that which makes themopposepsychoanalysisevenbeforetheyconsideritascienceornot,isthefact thattheyrisklosingapartofthemselves,ofbeingmodified? Dr. Lacan: This worry is totally legitimate as it appears. To say that there is no change inthe personality after a psychoanalysis wouldbe a joke.Itisdifficult to claimatthesametimethatwecanobtainresultsthroughpsychoanalysisandthat wemaynotobtainthem,thatistosay,thatpersonalitycanremainunchanged.In anycase,thenotionofpersonalityneedstobeclarified,orevenre-interpreted. SETTLING(REINSTALLATION)OFTHESUBJECT Interviewer: Basically, the difference between psychoanalysis and various psychologicaltechniques isthatpsychoanalysisisnot contented with onlyguiding, orinterveningblindly,psychoanalysiscures... Dr.Lacan:Itcuresthatwhichiscurable.Itwillnotcuredaltonismoridiocy,evenif intheenddaltonismandidiocyhavesomethingtodowiththepsyche.Doyouknow Freud'sformula,"therewhereitwas,Imustbe"?Thesubjectmustbeabletosettle inthisplace,thisplace wherehewas nolonger,replacedbythisanonymousword thatwecallthe"it". Interviewer:IntheFreudianperspective,isthereaninterestinaimingatcuringthe large number of people who are not ill? In other words, is there an interest in psychoanalyzingeveryone? Dr. Lacan: To possess an unconscious is not a privilege of neurotics. There are people who are manifestly not overwhelmed by an excessive weight of parasitic suffering,whoarenotblockedbythepresenceofanothersubject-butwhowould not lose anything if they knew more about him. Since to be analyzed is nothing differentthanknowingone'sownhistory. Interviewer:Isthistrueinthecaseofcreators? Dr.Lacan:Itisaninterestingquestiontoknowifthereisaninterestforthemtorun withortoveilthisspeechthatattacksthemfromtheoutside(it'sthesamethingas thatwhichblocksthesubjectinneurosisandincreativeinspiration).
9
Isthereaninterestinrunningonthepathofpsychoanalysistowardsthetruthofthe subject's history, or to give away, like Goethe, to a great way which is nothing differentthananenormouspsychoanalysis?BecauseinGoethethisisevident:his workisentirelytherevelationoftheothersubject'sspeech.Hepushedthethingas farasageniuscandoit.Wouldhehavewrittensomethingdifferentifhehadbeen analyzed? In my opinion, his work would have been another, but I don't thinkit wouldhavebeenlost. Interviewer: And for those men who are not creators but who have enormous responsibilities,whodealwithpower,doyouthinkthatpsychoanalysisshouldbe obligatory? Dr.Lacan:Infact,weshouldnotdoubtthatifamanisthePresidentofthecouncil,it isbecausehewasanalyzedatanormalage,thismeansyoung,butsometimesyouth isverylonglasting. SIGNSOFALARM Interviewer: Watch out! What could one object to Mr. Guy Mollet if he had been analyzed? If he could have the right to immunization when his contradictors do not? Dr. Lacan: I wouldn't take a stand on whether Mr. Guy Mollet would make the politics he makes if he were analyzed! I don't want to be heard saying that a psychoanalysis applied universally would be the source of the resolution of all antinomies;thatifweanalyzeallhumanbeings,therewillnotbeanymorewars,no more class conflicts; formally, I say the opposite. All that wecouldexpect is that humandramasmightbelessconfusing. Do you see the error in what you were saying a while ago: wanting to use an instrumentwithout knowing how itis made? Amongthe activities that are being developedallover theworldunderthenameofpsychoanalysis,thereisa growing tendency to cover, to fail to recognize, to mask the first order in which Freud broughthisspark. TheeffortofthegreatmajorityofthepsychoanalyticschoolshasbeenwhatIcallan attemptatreduction:toputinone'spocketthemostdisturbingaspectofFreud's theory.Yearafteryear,wewitnesstheaccentuationofthisdegradation,reachingat times,likeintheUnitedStates,formulationswhichareintotalcontradictionwith theFreudianinspiration. Itisnotbecausepsychoanalysisishighlycontestedthatanalystsshouldmaketheir observationsmore acceptable,covering them withmultiple colors,andborrowing analogiesfromneighboringscientificdomains. Interviewer:Thisisverydiscouragingifwethinkintermsofpotentialanalysands?
10
Dr.Lacan:Ifmywordsdisturbyou,somuchthebetter.Fromthepointofviewofthe public,mywishistoemitasignofalarm,sothattherewillbe,inascientificfield,a verypreciserequirementconcerningthetrainingofanalysts. ATRAINEDANALYST Interviewer:Isn'titalreadyaverylongandserioustraining? Dr.Lacan:Thepsychoanalyticteaching,asitistoday--medicalstudiesandthena psychoanalysis, a training analysis with a qualified analyst-- is lacking something essential,withoutwhichIdoubtonecouldconsideroneselfawelltrainedanalyst: thestudyoflinguisticandhistoricdisciplines,historyofreligion,etc. Freud, soas toclarifyhisthoughton training, revives the old term,which Ienjoy mentioning,of"universitasliterarum".Medicalstudiesareevidentlyinsufficientto understandwhatpsychoanalysissays,thatistosay,forexample,todifferentiateina discourse the meaning of symbols, the presenceofmyths, or simply tograspthe meaningof whatthe patientsays,justlikewe graspthemeaning ofa text.At the minimum,forthetimebeing,aseriousstudyofthetextsoftheFreudiandoctrineis renderedpossiblebythesafehaventhatisgiventhembyProfessorJeanDelayof thefacultyoftheClinicofMentalIllnessandEncephalitis. Interviewer:Doyouthinkthatthere'sariskoflosingpsychoanalysis,asinventedby Freud,inthehandsofincompetentpeople? Dr. Lacan: At present, psychoanalysis is turning more and more to a confusing mythology.Wecancitecertainsigns:erasureoftheOedipuscomplex,accentuation ofpre-oedipal mechanisms,of frustration,substitution ofthe term anxietybyfear. Butthisdoesn'tmeanthatFreudianism,thefirstFreudianglow,isnotdevelopingall over.Wefindveryclearmanifestationsofitinallsortsofhumansciences. I'mthinkinginparticularofwhatmyfriendClaudeLevi-Strausstoldmerecentlyof the tribute paid to the Oedipus complex by ethnographers, by who the Oedipus complexisseenasaprofoundmythicalcreationborninourepoch.Itissomething verystrikingandsurprisingthatSigmundFreud,amanalone,managedtobringout acertainnumberofeffectsthathadneverbeenisolatedbefore,introducingthem intoacoordinatednetwork,inventingatthesametimeascienceanda fieldforits application.But,inrelationtothisgreatworkofFreud,whichtraversesthecentury likea strokeoffire,ourworkislaggingbehind.Isayitwithallmyconviction.And wewill not moveaheaduntil wehaveenoughwelltrained people todoall thata scientificortechnicaltaskrequires:afterthestrokeofgenius,anarmyofworkersto harvesttheresults.
11
