Bruce Lee: The Lost Interview Script. The Pierre Berton Show
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Pierre Berton: well how can you play in mandarin movies if you don't even speak mandarin?
Bruce Lee:
well first of all, I speak only Cantonese.
Pierre Berton: yeah.
Bruce Lee:
so, I mean, there is quite a difference as pronunciation and thins like that is concerned.
Pierre Berton: so some!ody else's voice is used riht?
Bruce Lee:
definitely, definitely""
Pierre Berton: so you #ust make the words$$doesn't that sound strane when you o to the mo vies, especially in %on &on, your home town, and you see yourself with some!ody else's voice?
Bruce Lee:
well not really, you see, !ecause most of the mandarin pictures here are du!!ed anyway.
Pierre Berton: they're du!!ed anyway?
Bruce Lee:
anyway. anyway. I mean in this reard, they shoot without sound. so it doesn't make any difference.
Pierre Berton: your lips never quite make the riht words, do they?
Bruce Lee:
yeah, well that's where the difficulty lies, you see. I mean in order to....the Cantonese have a
different way of sayin thins....I mean different from the mandarin. so I have to find, like, somethin similar to that in order to keep a kind of a feelin oin !ehind that in my films.( somethin, you know, matchin the mandarin deal. does it sound complicated?
Pierre Berton: #ust like in the silent picture days. the old silent days. I ather that in the movies made here the dialoue is pretty stilted anyway.
Bruce Lee:
yeah, I aree with you. I man, see, to me, a motion picture is motion. I mean, you've ot to
keep the dialoue down to the minimum.
Pierre Berton: did you look at mainly mandarin movies !efore you started playin in your first one?
Bruce Lee:
yes.
Pierre Berton: what did you think of them?
Bruce Lee:
quality wise, I mean, I would have to admit that it's not quite up to the standard. however, it
is rowin and it is ettin hiher and hiher and oin toward that standard that I would term quality.
Pierre Berton: they say the secret of your success in that movie, the !i !oss, that was such a success here and rocketed you to stardom in )sia, was that you did your own fihtin.
Bruce Lee:
uh$huh.
Pierre Berton: as an e*pert in the various martial arts in china, what did you think of the fihtin that you saw in the movies that you studied !efore you !ecame a star?
Bruce Lee:
well, I mean, definitely in the !einnin, I had no intention whatsoever, that what I was
practicin, and what I'm still practicin now would lead to this, to !ein with. !ut martial art has had a very, very deep meanin as far as my life is concerned !ecause, as an actor, as a martial artist, as a human !ein, all these I have learned from martial art.
Pierre Berton: may!e for our audience who doesn't know what it means, you miht !e a!le to e*plain what e*actly you mean !y martial art?
Bruce Lee:
riht. martial art includes all the com!ative arts like karate$$
Pierre Berton: #udo.
Bruce Lee:
$$or karate, #udoarees(, Chinese +un$fu, or Chinese !o*in, whatever you call it. all
those, you see, like, )ikido, &orean karate, and on and on and on. !ut it's a com!ative form of fihtin. I mean some of them !ecame sport, !ut some of them art still not. I mean some of them use, for intense, kickin to the roin, #a!!in finers to the eyes, thins like that.
Pierre Berton: no wonder you're successful in it" the Chinese movies are full of this kind of action anyway$$they needed a uy like you"they !oth lauh(
Bruce Lee:
violence, man"
Pierre Berton: so you didn't have to use a dou!le when you moved into the motion picture role here.
Bruce Lee:
no.
Pierre Berton: you did it all yourself?
Bruce Lee:
riht.
Pierre Berton: can you !reak five or si* pieces of wood with your hand or foot?
Bruce Lee:
I'd pro!a!ly !reak my hand and foot"
they !oth lauh(
Pierre Berton: tell me a little !it....you set up a school in %ollywood didn't you?
Bruce Lee:
yes.
Pierre Berton: for people like ames arner, -teve c/ueen and the others.
Bruce Lee:
yes.
Pierre Berton: why would they want to learn Chinese martial art? !ecause of a movie role?
Bruce Lee:
not really. most of them you see, to me at least, the way that I teach it, all types of
knowlede ultimately man self$knowlede. is, therefore, these people are comin in and askin me to teach them, not so much how to defend themselves, or how to do some!ody in. rather, they want to learn to e*press themselves throuh some movement, !e it aner, !e it determination or whatever. so, in other words, what I'm sayin therefore, is that they're payin me to show them, in com!ative form, the art of e*pressin the human !ody.
Pierre Berton: which is actin, in a sense, isn't it?
Bruce Lee:
well......
Pierre Berton: or would !e a useful tool for an actor....
Bruce Lee:
it miht sound too philosophical, !ut it's unactin actin or actin unactin....if you know$$
Pierre Berton: you've lost me"
Bruce Lee:
I have huh? so what I'm sayin, actually, you see, it's a com!ination of !oth. I mean here is
natural instinct and here i s control. you are to com!ine the two in harmony. not$$if you have one to the e*treme, you'll !e very unscientific. if you have another to the e*treme, you !ecome, all of a sudden, a
mechanical man$$no loner a human !ein. so it is a successful com!ination of !oth, so therefore, it's not pure naturalness, or unnaturalness. the i deal is unnatural naturalness, or natural unnaturalness.
Pierre Berton: yin0yan, eh?
Bruce Lee:
riht man, that's it.
Pierre Berton: one of your students, ames Co!urn , played in a movie called our man flint, in which he used karate. was that what he learned from you?
Bruce Lee:
he started trainin with me after the film. not...
Pierre Berton: so he learned after he played in our man flint.
Bruce Lee:
riht. riht. you see, actually, I do not teach, you know, karate, !ecause I do not !elieve in
styles anymore. I mean I do not !elieve that there is such thin as, like, a Chinese way of fihtin or a apanese way of fihtin$$or whatever way of fihtin, !ecause unless a human !ein has three arms and four les, there can !e no different form of fihtin. !ut, !asically, we only have two hands and two feet. so styles tend to, not only separate man$!ecause they have their own doctrines and the doctrine !ecame the ospel truth that you cannot chane" !ut, if you do not have styles, if you #ust say, 1here I am as a human !ein, how can I e*press myself totally and completely?1$$now that way, you won't create a style !ecause style is a crystalli2ation. that way is a process of continuin rowth.
Pierre Berton: you talk a!out Chinese !o*in....how does i t defer, from, say, our kind of !o*in?western(
Bruce Lee:
well, first we use the foot.
Pierre Berton: uh$huh, that's a start.
Bruce Lee:
and then we use the el!ow
Pierre Berton: do you use the thum! too?
Bruce Lee:
you name it man, we use it"
Pierre Berton: you use it all?"
Bruce Lee:
you have to, you see, !ecause that is the e*pression of the human !ody. I mean, everythin,
not #ust the hand" when you are talkin a!out com!at, well, if it is a sport$$well now your talkin a!out somethin else, with reulations, and rules$$!ut if you're talkin a!out fihtin$$
Pierre Berton: no rules.....
Bruce Lee:
$$with no rules, well then, !a!y, you'd !etter train every part of your !ody" and when you do
punch$$now I'm leanin forward a little !it hopin not to hurt any camera anle$$I mean you've ot to put the whole hip into it, and snap it"lee punches twice, very quickly(and et all your enery in there and make this into a weapon.
Pierre Berton: I don't want to tanle with you on any dark niht, I'll tell you that riht now" you came at me pretty fast there" what is the difference !etween Chinese !o*in and what we see these old men doin at eiht o'clock every mornin on the rooftops and he parks called 1shadow!o*in,1 which they're always doin?
Bruce Lee:
well, actually, you see, that is part of Chinese !o*in. there are as many schools, different
schools...
Pierre Berton: every!ody here seems to !e oin like this moves in a tai chi movement( all the time.
Bruce Lee:
well, that's ood. I mean, I'm very lad, I'm very lad to see that !ecause at least some!ody
is carin for their own !odies, riht?
Pierre Berton: yeah.
Bruce Lee:
I mean that's a ood sin. well it's kind o f a slow form of e*ercise which is called tai chi
chuan$$I'm speakin mandarin #ust now$$in Cantonese, 1&ai di kune1, and it's more of an e*ercise for the elderly then the youn.
Pierre Berton: ive me a demonstration3 show me, can you do a little !it of it?
Bruce Lee:
!eins a seated demonstration of tai chi hand movements...( I mean, have$wise, it's very
slow and you push it out !ut all the time you are keepin the continuity oin3 !endin, stretchin, everythin. you #ust keep it movin.
Pierre Berton: it looks like a !allet dancer there...
Bruce Lee:
it is$$I mean to them the idea is 1runnin water never rows stale.1 so you've ot to #ust
1keep on flowin.1
Pierre Berton: of all your students, famous, ames +arner, -teve c/ueen, 4ee arvin, ames Co!urn, 5oman Polanski, which was the !est? who adapted !est to this oriental form of e*ercise and defense?
Bruce Lee:
well, that depends...as a fihter, -teve$$-teve c/ueen$$now, he is ood in that department
!ecause, that son of a un has ot the touhness in him....
Pierre Berton: I see it on the screen....
Bruce Lee:
I mean, he would say, 1all riht !a!y, here I am, man,1 you know, and he'll do it" now ames
Co!urn is peace$lovin man....
Pierre Berton: I met him.
Bruce Lee:
riht? I mean, you've met him....
Pierre Berton: yeah.
Bruce Lee:
I mean he's really, really nice, and super mellow, and all that...
Pierre Berton: yeah, he is"
Bruce Lee:
you know what I mean? now he appreciates the philosophical part of it. therefore, is
understandin of it is deeper then -teve's. so it's really hard to say, you see what I'm sayin now?
Pierre Berton: I see....
Bruce Lee:
I mean it's different, dependin on what you see in it...
Pierre Berton: it's interestin, we don't in our world, and haven't since the days of the +reeks who did, com!ined philosophy and art with sport. !ut quite clearly the oriental attitude is that the three are facets of the same thin.
Bruce Lee:
man, listen to me, ok? to me, ultimately, martial art means honestly e*pressin yourself. now
it is very difficult to do. I mean it is easy for me to put on a show and !e cocky and !e flooded with a cocky feelin and then feel, then, like pretty cool and all that. or I can make all kinds of phony thins, you see what I mean? and !e !linded !y it. o r I can show you some really fancy movement$!ut, to e*press oneself honestly, not lyin to oneself$$and to e*press myself honestly$that, my friend is very hard to do. and you have to train. you have to keep your refle*es so that when you want it$$it's there" when you want to move, you are movin and when you move you are determined to move. not takin one inch, not anythin less than that" if I want to punch, I'm oin to do it man, and I'm oin to do it" so that is the type of thin you ave to train yourself into it3 to !ecome one with it. you think$$snaps his finers($$it is.
Pierre Berton: this is very un$western, this attitude. I've !een takin to Bruce lee, mainly a!out the Chinese martial arts which include thins like Chinese !o*in, karate and #udo, which is what he tauht when he was in %ollywood after he left the university of 6ashinton, where he studied, of all thins, philosophy, if you can !elieve that. !ut he did !ut that, perhaps you understand why the two o toether from the first half of this proram. and you can perhaps understand how he ot into films, he knew a lot of actors !ut I'm told that you ot the #o! on the reen hornet, where you played &ato the chauffeur mainly !ecause you were the only Chinese$lookin uy who could pronounce the name of the leadin character, !ritt reid"
Bruce Lee:
I meant that as a #oke of course" and it's a heck of name, man" I mean every time I said it at
that time I was super$conscious" I mean, really now, that's another interestin thin, huh? lets say if you learn to speak Chinese... Pierre Berton: yeah? Bruce Lee:
It's not difficult to learn and speak the words. the hard thin, the difficult thin, is !ehind what
is the meanin: what !rouht on the e*pression and feelins !ehind those words. 4ike, then I first arrived in the united states and I looked at a Caucasian, and I really would not know whether he was puttin me on or is he really anry? !ecause we have different ways of reactin to it $$ those are the difficult thins, you see?
Pierre Berton: of course. it's almost as if you came upon a strane race where a smile didn't mean what it does to us. in fact, a smile doesn't always mean the same, does it?
Bruce Lee:
of course, not.
Pierre Berton: yeah, I #ust thouht of that. tell me a!out the !i !reak when you played in lonstreet...
Bruce Lee:
ahh, that's it.
Pierre Berton: I must tell our audience that Bruce lee had a !it part, or a supportin role in the lonstreet series and this had an enormous effect on the audience. what was it?
Bruce Lee:
well, you see, the title of that particular episode of lonstreet is called 1the way of the
interceptin fist1. now I think the successful inredient in it was !ecause I was !ein Bruce lee.
Pierre Berton: yourself.
Bruce Lee:
myself, riht. and did that part, #ust e*pressed myself, like I say, 1honestly e*pressed myself,
at that time. and I, !ecause of that, !rouht, you know, favora!le mentionin in, like, the new 7ork times, which says, like, 1a chinaman who, incidentally, came off quite convincinly enouh to earn himself a television series and so on and so on and so forth.1
Pierre Berton: can you remem!er the key lines !y -tirlin -illiphant? the key lines?
Bruce Lee:
he's one of my students, you know that?
Pierre Berton: was he too?
Bruce Lee:
yes...
Pierre Berton: every!ody's your student" !ut you read, there were some key lines there that e*pressed your philosophy. I don't know if you remem!er them or not....
Bruce Lee:
oh I remem!er them, I said....
Pierre Berton: let's here...
Bruce Lee:
this is what it is, ok?
Pierre Berton: you're talkin to lonstreet played !y ames 8ranciscus...
Bruce Lee:
I said, 1empty your mind, !e formless, shapeless, like water. now you put water into a cup, it
!ecomes the cup. you put water into a !ottle, it !ecomes the !ottle. you put it in a teapot, it !ecomes the teapot. now water can flow, or it can crash" !e water, my friend.1$$like that, you see?
Pierre Berton: yeah, I see, I et the idea. I et the power !ehind it...
Bruce Lee:
uh$huh....
Pierre Berton: so, now, two thins have happened3 first there's a pretty ood chance that you'll et a 9 series in the states called 19he 6arrior1, isn't it? where you use what$$the martial arts in a western settin?
Bruce Lee:
well that was the oriinal idea. now paramount, you know I did lonstreet for paramount, and
paramount wants me to !e in a television series. on the other hand, 6arner !rothers wants me to !e in another one. !ut !oth of them, I think, they want me to !e in a moderni2ed type of a thin and they think that the western idea is out" whereas I want....
Pierre Berton: you want to do the western"
Bruce Lee:
I want to do the western !ecause, you see, I mean, or else can you #ustify all of this punchin
and kickin and violence e*cept in the period of the west? I mean, nowadays, I mean you don't o around
on the street, kickin and punchin people....pretends to reach into his #acket for a un( !ecause if you do....pulls out his imainary un and pulls the trier( pow" that's it. I mean, I don't care how 1ood1 you are.
Pierre Berton: yeah, a un, !ut this is true also of the Chinese dramas, which are mainly costume dramas. they're all full of !lood and ore over here"
Bruce Lee:
oh you mean here?
Pierre Berton: yeah.
Bruce Lee:
well, unfortunately, that's often the case. you see, I hope that the picture I am in would either
e*plain why the violence was done$$whether riht or wron, or what not$$!ut, unfortunately, pictures, most of them here, are done mainly #ust for the sake of violence. you know what I mean? like, you know, uys fihtin for ;< minutes straiht, ettin sta!!ed =< times" acts like he is sta!!in himself and knocks his microphone off his shirt(
Pierre Berton: well I'm fascinated, here, let me ive you your microphone !ack...
Bruce Lee:
I am a martial artist....
Pierre Berton: I'm fascinated that you came !ack to %on &on on the vere of success in %ollywood$$and full of it$$and suddenly, on the strenth of one picture, you !ecome a superstar. every!ody knows you. you have to chane your phone num!er. you et mo!!ed in the streets. now what are you oin to do? are you oin to !e a!le to live in !oth worlds? a re you oin to !e a superstar here or one in the states$$or !oth?
Bruce Lee:
well, let me say this. first of all, the word superstar really turns me off$$and I'll tell you why.
the word 1star1 man, it's an illusion. it's somethin what the pu!lic calls you. you should look upon oneself as an actor, man. I mean you would !e very pleased if some!ody said punches his fist into his open hand( 1man, you are e a super actor"1 it is much !etter than, you know, superstar. therefore, i...
Pierre Berton: yes, !ut you've ot to admit that you are a superstar. you're not oin to....you're not oin to....if you're oin to ive me the truth"
Bruce Lee:
I am now....I am honestly sayin this, okay?
yes, I have !een very successful, okay?
Pierre Berton: yeah....
Bruce Lee:
!ut I think the word 1star1 is....I mean I do not look upon myself as a star. I really don't. I
mean !elieve me, man, when I say it. I mean I'm not sayin it !ecause....
Pierre Berton: what are you oin to do? let's et !ack to the question.
Bruce Lee:
lauhs(ok.
Pierre Berton: are you oin to stay in %on &on and !e famous, or are you oin to o to the united states and !e famous, or are you oin to try to eat your cake and have it too?
Bruce Lee:
I am oin to do !oth !ecause, you see, I have already made up my mind that, in the united
states, I think somethin a!out the oriental, I mean the true oriental, should !e shown.
Pierre Berton: %ollywood sure as heck hasn't"
Bruce Lee:
you !etter !elieve it man. I mean it's always that pitail, !ouncin around, 1chopchop,1 you
know? with the eyes slanted and all that. and I think that's very, very out of date.
Pierre Berton: is it true that the first #o! you had was !ein cast as Charlie Chan's 1num!er one son?1
Bruce Lee:
yeah, 1num!er one son.1 they !oth lauh(
Pierre Berton: they never made the movie?
Bruce Lee:
no, they were oin to make it into a new Chinese ames !ond type of a thin. now that, you
know,1the old man Chan is dead, Charlie is dead, and his son is carryin on.1
Pierre Berton: oh I see. !ut they didn't do that.
Bruce Lee:
no, Batman came alon you see. and then everythin started to o into that kind of a thin.
Pierre Berton: like the reen hornet?
Bruce Lee:
yeah.
Pierre Berton: which you were in...
Bruce Lee:
!y the way, I did a really terri!le #o! in that, I have to say.
Pierre Berton: really? you didn't like yourself in that?
Bruce Lee:
oh, no.
Pierre Berton: I didn't see it. let me ask you, however, a!out the pro!lems that you face as a Chinese hero in an )merican series. have people come up in the industry and said, 1well we don't know how the audience are oin to take a non$)merican?1
Bruce Lee:
well, such a question has !een raised. in fact, it is !ein discussed and that is pro!a!ly why
the warrior is not oin to !e on.
Pierre Berton: I see.
Bruce Lee:
you see? !ecause,m unfortunately, such a thin does e*ist in this world, you see. like, I don't
know, in a certain part of the country, riht? where they think that, !usiness wise, it's a risk. and I don't !lame them$$I don't !lame them.I mean, in the same way, it's like in %on &on, if a foreiner came and !ecame a star, if I were the man with the money, I pro!a!ly would have my own worry of whether or not the acceptance would !e there. !ut that's all riht !ecause, if you honestly e*press yourself, it doesn't matter, see? !ecause you're oin to do it"
Pierre Berton: how '!out the other side of the coin? is it possi!le that you, I mean you're fairly hip, and fairly )mericani2ed, are you too western for our o riental audiences do you think?
Bruce Lee:
I$$oh man"$$like how....I have !een critici2ed for that"
Pierre Berton: you have, eh?
Bruce Lee:
oh, definitely. let me say this: when I do the Chinese film I'll try my !est not to !e
as.....)merican as, you know, I have !een ad#usted to for the last > years in the states. !ut when I o !ack to the states, it seems to !e the other way around, you know what I mean?
Pierre Berton: you're too e*otic, eh?
Bruce Lee:
yeah, man. I mean they're tryin to et me to do too many thins that are really for the sake
of !ein e*otic. you understand what I'm tryin to say?
Pierre Berton: oh sure.
Bruce Lee:
so, it's really, I mean....
Pierre Berton: when you live in !oth worlds, it !rins its pro!lems as well as its advantaes, and you've ot them !oth. let me ask you whether the chane in attitude on the part of the @i*on administration
towards china has helped your chances of starrin in an )merican 9 series?
Bruce Lee:
lauhs( well, first of all, this happened !efore that. !ut I don think that thins of Chinese will
!e quite interestin for the ne*t few years$$I mean not that I'm politically inclinin toward anythin, you know, !ut...
Pierre Berton: I understand that, !ut I was #ust wonderin....
Bruce Lee:
!ut I mean once the openin of china happens, you know, I mean that it will !rin more
understandin" more thins that are, hey, like different, you know? and may!e in the contrast of comparison some new thin miht row. so, therefore, I mean it's a very rich period to !e in. I mean like, if I were !orn, let's say A< years ao and if I thouht in my mind and said, 1!oy, I'm oin to star in a television series in )merica,1 well...that miht !e a vaue dream. !ut I think, riht now, it may !e, man.
Pierre Berton: do you still think of yourself as Chinese or do you ever think of yourself as a north )merican?
Bruce Lee:
you know what I want to think of myself? as a human !ein. !ecause, I mean I don't wan to
sound like ask Confucius, sayyyyyy$$#okin( !ut under the sky, under the heaven, man, there is !ut one family. it #ust so happens that people are different.
Pierre Berton: ok, we've ot to o...thank you Bruce lee for comin here, and thank you for watchin...
Bruce Lee:
thank you, Pierre Berton, thank you.
End of interview
