Excerpted from from A VOICE IN THE FOREST, copyright copyright 2003 Harvest Shadows Publications. All rights reserved. Further reproduction without permission prohibited.
Note: The complete test of this previously unpublished 1974 interview with Alex Sanders is included in the e xpanded edition of A VOICE IN THE FOREST. The interviewer, Loriel, was a life-l ong friend to Alex, and a memb er of his London coven.
LORIEL: How would you describe your position within the occult hierarchies, not only in this country, but in the world? ALEX: I can only say from the point of view of witchcraft witchcraft and ceremonial magick that I’m I’m probably one of the only real practitioners in existence, and I base this on this reason – on this fact – that the Golden Dawn is supposed to be the leading occult order in this century, and when people like Francis King have wanted to illustrate their books with Golden Dawn trap-pings, photographs of Golden Dawn circles and temples, they ask me to set them u p, even though he’s supposed to be in contact with various groups of the Order. LORIEL: They still exist, do they? ALEX: They’re They’re still in existence existence and supposed to be in touch with lots of things – not one one of them is capable of setting up the Golden Dawn rituals or temple. I’m the only one so capable, to have it photographed, set it up. LORIEL: When I was reading that book yesterday by John Symonds, he said that Crowley had gone with one of his women, I forget which, to the Far East, and he went to see Alan Bennett, who was by then a bhikku (Buddhist monk), and he opened the door and he saw, to his amazement, that Bennett was hovering about four feet off the floor — ALEX: I don’t believe it – that’s just Crowley. Crowley. LORIEL: LORIEL: But Symonds does say that — ALEX: I don’t believe it. He (Crowley) (Crowley) did a send up. He (Alan Bennett) is now buried in Golders Green (N. London suburb) or somewhere like that, in London . . . LORIEL: But Symonds did say that he’d chosen the higher life of the spirit, meaning the Buddhist meditations, rather than the play-acting, almost, of the Golden Dawn. I mean, do you think that’s what it had become? ALEX: I think the Golden Dawn Dawn had too much Masonry Masonry mixed up in what what it was doing, although it did have some good stuff. I find a lot of it incredibly childish, though. A lot of its people had high academic backgrounds backgrounds and lots of money or do better — my education had practically finished when I was 13 and a half . . . Although I couldn’t speak languages, I could penetrate the depths of a ritual, and portray it, I feel, in a much more honest way, and a much more dramatic way. That’s why I get criticised, because the drama of what I do is very sensational. What people don’t realize is the spirit that’s
coming through, they only recognise the physical impact of it. This is why I’ve instilled fear into a lot of people with public appearances LORIEL: I’m going to come back to this, actually, right at the end. ALEX: (continued from tape) ... But I get decried for that kind of thing. LORIEL: When Crowley was initiated into the Golden Dawn, he was quite disappointed, wasn’t he? They took him aside with great ceremony and gave him a list of Hebrew letters. ALEX: Yes, well I think he’d only just packed it into a few words, and he was making fun. Making fun in an annoying sort of way, because if anyone said to me as far as ceremonial magick – put me into an occult order – and said this is our secret, and it’s based on the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet – and the letters of the alphabet are symbols, and the symbols are numbers, and the numbers are the primitive hieroglyphics, and upon this is based the whole of the cosmic universe . ... You know, he could have given a bit more detail than that – then said “now we come to the forces behind the principles, now we come to the principles themselves, now we come to the elements, now we come to the emanations of the elements, now we come to the beginnings of creation.” He was quite right when he said that’s all they gave to him – that’s all they did, and at the end of everything, if I teach anybody whatever occult system, Western, Eastern or even ancient Egyptian, all I can do is relate it to the Tree of Life, which is the finest composite glyph in the whole of the world. LORIEL: I was really coming to the (Golden Dawn’s) stages of occult development, Crowley’s development progressed through very definite stages, didn’t it? From novice ... (NOTE:I was wanting here to get to Alex’s own development, which was in GD terms most unorthodox, but the discussion got side-tracked as follows:) ALEX: Yes, but those grades – don’t be led astray by the names of the grades either – they’re very Masonic, the degrees of squares are very Masonic, and they’re only a sliding scale for that particular Order. You know, in the Wicca we have exactly the same thing, except that it’s scaled to three. Now that three can be fitted onto the Tree of Life. The first degree is Hod, Netzach, including Yesod, to Malkuth. The second degree includes Geburah, Tiphareth, Yesod, Hod, Netzach and Malkuth. And then the third degree includes the whole supernal, and it lifts man to Godhead and brings Godhead down to man. It’s like Jacob and the angels going up and down the ladder .... LORIEL: What I was going to ask, really, was when one of the adepts of the Golden Dawn had reached Adeptus Exemptus, which was the last stage of the second order, they used to symbolically “cross the Abyss...” ALEX: Yes.
LORIEL: . . . which was this tremendous killing of the ‘ego,’as far as I understand it – ALEX: Yes, and they became more egotistical afterwards. More concerned with what ‘I’ am going to do. They became all powerful and there was only ‘I’ in existence and nobody else. LORIEL: Those last three grades of Magister Templi, Magus and Ipsissimus ... now as far as I’ve always understood it and I’m probably quite wrong ... but someone who had reached the grade of Ipsissiumus was right at the top of the magical tree, as far as he could go without being merged into the Light – the emanations ... now when you say that the three grades of witchcraft are comparable to that, do you mean to say that someone who is a third grade witch is comparable to ... (NOTE: My point was going to be that I did not believe that a third grade witch could be comparable to Ipsissimus.) ALEX: Yes, is Adeptus. LORIEL: ...comparable in stature to ... (NOTE: Here we were clearly at cross purposes.) ALEX: Yes, I had to have a title given to me, granted to me, whether I felt I was capable of receiving it or not — the title literally of the Grand Master of All the Witches ... was the greatest compliment to my work that I’d done, but they chose me for that degree. They saw the emanation, I didn’t. I still don’t, actually. And I always hate the fact I’ve been stuck with it ... And yet my horoscope – working out of my horoscope – was done anonymously (??), and the two people who did it still didn’t know, and still don’t know to this day, whose hand or whose horoscope they did. And they said this man has the powers of a king, and must be a ruler of some kind. So what was given to me was either destined or decreed for me...
