WHAT DIES IS ONLY THE BODY
~*~ HIS HOLINESS XVI GYALWA KARMAPA ~*~
An interview with His Eminence Situ Rinpoche held on Saturday, November 7th, 1981 at 10:15 PM, 48 hours after the clinical death of His Holiness The 16th Gyalwa Karmapa in Zion, Illinois. Presenting Presenti ng questions on behalf of Dharma Students were Sherab - Barry Bryant and Jerome Allan Landau, Esquire.
Q. In discussing the passing of his holiness, holine ss, the XVIth Gyalwa. Gyalwa. Karmapa, we request that you, Situ Rinpoche, comment about the death of ordinary beings and the passing away or death of a very great or an extraordinary being, such as His Holiness..., your comments on this Situ Rinpoche. A.Concerning opinions about THE DEATH, the Oriental and Occidental have different understandings, yet they are the same. But the explanation about The Death through the Dharma is not only a cultural understanding, or only a philosophical proof or a scientific proof, it is what The Death really is. The death of any ordinary person, Eastern or Western, or any sentient being, is still death. We are having this conversation because of the death or the passing away of His Holiness. This can be called call ed a different way of passing. Actually, DEATH means changing this body. Changing this body means the beginning or starting of (life in) the next body. What dies is only the body. Mind shall never die. Mind cannot die. The death of an ordinary being bei ng is death without the Realization of the Ultimate Truth, simply the Truth, as it is, by itself. itse lf. That is, as a result of one�s Karma. Karma means anything which is the experience of future that is a result of the present. Anything which is the experience of the present, is a result of the past. That is Karma. That means the cause of everything. Nothing comes out of nothing. Everything is i s the result re sult of something. That That is Karma. Kar ma. An ordinary being�s death is without freedom, without knowing, without choice; they die. And, according to their past creation, they will be born again. Yet such a death as the passing away of His Holiness, the Karmapa, is that kind of event which is very different different from ordinary death. This way of dying is for all, not just for some of us. To many many of us, He explained e xplained for the benefit be nefit of his disciples (Eastern (Easter n and Western) For example, when asked if he needed a new robe,
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He responded, * I don�t need any more robes, this is the last...* And ten years ago, he told some of his disciples, * I will die when I am 58 years old,~ (1981). To a very close disciple, His Holiness said, *I will come as a little boy, take care of that.* Recently He said, *Once I have to die and then everything will be all right.* He has also said that, *I will breathe out (my last breath) in an Occidental country, and, then, I will breathe in a new fresh breath.* He told us all these kinds of things. Yet he let us continue (for his illness) all kinds of treatments, because of the fulfillment of everyone. He also accepted everything. Now we realize this was not for us to feel sorry about him, but to fulfill everyone. At the present, it is not just a loss. Of course, we lost Him and His body, but we never lose Him. At the present time, and now, this is the third day of His death. The present state of His body is the sign of the present state of His mind. He is presently in contemplation or state of awareness; more than just a wisdom of Mahamudra or The Ultimate Truth. Another way to say it is, Dharmakaya. For this reason, there is heat on His heart, his skin and flesh and everything is just like that of a living person. It is because of this that we are waiting for him to complete that contemplation. Then his body will show signs of death; there will be no heat in His heart, etc. That is the present state of the outer body sign(s) and inner mind awareness of His Holiness, and a brief explanation about the death of ordinary people and (that of) such a great master as His Holiness. His Holiness died knowing that His incarnation, the XVIIth Karmapa, will come without any doubt. This comes from his great activity of real awareness.
Q. During these last few days, many of the students of His Holiness have been experiencing different things; some profound peace, some agitation. One persons feels as though she has holes all over her body, and many are experiencing other different sensations. Can you explain or comment on how the passing of His Holiness affects all of us?
A. The passing away of His Holiness is experienced through many different levels; outer level, inner level, and the real awareness level. On the outer level, it is very clear that there is nothing on the road which is permanent; it proves it very clearly. And then, more than this, it gives us a real understanding of how precious the human life is. How valuable this present life is. If we don�t use this valuable life, then how great a disaster we are doing to ourselves.. Even a great being like His Holiness has to pass, because of His body. Even He knows; but we don�t have any idea. I don�t know if I am going to die tomorrow, if I am going to live ten years, or if I�m going to die in five minutes. I don�t know, very honestly. Therefore, this (The Death) is a reminder to us that if we do not use this precious time, impermance, death... can come at any time. Another thing is the expectation of His future incarnation. Another *glorious morning* which will
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dawn with us. This is also a kind of great expectation. There are millions of different aspects of the profound understanding of death. Each of us will approach Death according to which level we are at.
Q. For a long time we have been reciting the long life prayers for His Holiness, which we interpret as meaning not only the long life of His Holiness, but also the long life of His Lamas and the Teaching. Now we are practicing the Guru Yoga and praying for the reincarnation of His Holiness as soon as possible. Can you talk to us about the Lineage; His Holiness being the primary Lineage holder and the embodiment of the Teaching. Through our practice, we strive to be at one with the essence of the Teacher, who is the essence of the Teaching. A. Yes, about the long life prayer, there are many for His Holiness, Karmapa; for example, the Long life prayer written by the 11th Situ Rinpoche, His spiritual master. I have changed this into a prayer requesting His Holiness to come back in a new incarnation with The Great Purpose. Other long life prayers should be changed, asking Him to return (reincarnate), but it is best that the person who wrote the prayer be the one to change the prayer. If one thinks �Now that His Holiness has passed away, I can simply change the words along life� to �return� this will not work. It is better that the change be made by the person who has profound awareness. It is very clear that if the person who wrote the long life prayer is alive, that person should make the appropriate change. For example, the long life prayer written for His Holiness by His Holiness Dudjom Rinpoche, should now be changed by His Holiness Dudjom Rinpoche, requesting His Holiness Karmapa to return. Concerning The Guru Yoga, it is exactly the same. My feeling is that it can be more beneficial to do the Guru Yoga of the XVIth Karmapa now, because it is totally pure and it is being done with devotion and feeling. Before His Holiness� death, there was devotion, but not as strong and pure as it is flow. I think it can be more, but it depends.
Q. Could you talk to us about the significance of His Holiness passing in North America. A. Yes: I cannot say exactly what it is, but I am sure it is of great significance. According to my personal understanding, and my personal experience of His Holiness� life, His death has purposefully taken place in America, an Occidental country. He was born in Tibet, an Oriental country, and I think this is the great significance. The Teaching of the Buddha is The Dharma. The meaning of The Dharma is the *AS IT IS*ness of the everything. It is not just a path, not just a belief, it is the *AS IT IS*. The Teaching is to expand; His passing in North America is to expand the understanding of The Dharma, for the sake of all beings. This understanding by all beings is always needed, but I think even more in this century and in the present situation. I think this can be of great significance for all Occidental countries to develop the profound Dharma understanding. Another reason for His passing in North America is that the whole world is either Occidental or Oriental. His birth took place in the Orient and His death has taken place in the Occident. This means His activity is complete for the whole universe. Another reason for His dying in North America, and this is my very personal thought, is because He died of such a disease as cancer. Until now, cancer, which is incurable, has been the worst disease in the whole world. Historically, other great masters have died of cancer.
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I think, now, from today, there will be a method to cure cancer. I think so. This is my belief.
Q. Do you have any more to say about that? A. I think I will wait.
Q. His Holiness passing in a Western hospital where Western technology was used, machines and so forth, could you comment on this. There has been a question among many in the West concerning the use of machines.
A. *Disturb Him.* (the machines)
Q. I�m talking in general for human beings, are the machines good? It is a question in our society: Are the machines good to prolong life, to make life longer, or not? It is a question, and now one of the very great Lamas of the world has experienced these machines, and Western technology and medicine certainly have good, things (to offer).
A. Yes, I am sure, everything, whatever, is existence; just existence. Machine or natural, everything, they have existence. They can have both, they can have the truth. I am sure the machine can not prolong a life if the being does not have the cause and condition to have longer life. This is very clear. Because of this, for the treatment to use a machine, doesn�t mean that anything is wrong with the machine. Fire, making of fire, is the greatest science in the whole of man�s history. I see people go to the moon, people go to Mars, go to Venus... people didn�t go just by themselves. The machine is quite developed, but I don�t see any of them greater than fire. Thus, I don� t think there is anything wrong with using the machines. Everything has a better effect...and a worse effect. ..that is very natural. But when we say The Truth, the truth doesn�t just mean truth which is opposite of untruth; The Truth we speak of in the Teaching of the Dharma, this is the truth which is the truth of the truth, and the truth of the untruth; both, that is the truth.
Q. The most important part of our being on the path of the Dharma is actually to do the practice. We are part of the Kagyu, The Practice Lineage; which started with Tilopa and passed to Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa and through to the Karmapas and other venerable Lamas. With the passing of His Holiness, the XVIth Karmapa, we in the West, for the first time are part of the history of the Lineage transition. In your country of Tibet, this has happened numerous times. Please tell us how we can incorporate this experience into our practice.
A. I think the result will be exactly the same as what has occured in Tibet over the centuries. There is no difference between West and East... the same experience, the same effect, the same effect. There will not be anything which is of unusual effect. It is the same; the lineage will continue from one to another; the way the lineage has continued from the beginning until now, is the way it will continue.
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Q. We have received many inquiries from various students asking about the *Letter.* A. His Holiness told us all about everything, except the letter. Historically, the Letter is not received by asking. The Letter is somewhere, with his seal, his handwriting, and his signature, clearly. We never worry about it.
Q. Could you explain what the letter is. A. A period of time after the death of the XVth Karmapa, one of His disciples presented the *Letter* in His handwriting, with his seal (Tibet doesn�t have signature, but handwriting with the seal). This disciple received the envelope - a Tibetan kind of envelope from His Holiness, who instructed him not to open it until such and such a time. He kept it and opened it at the right time, which was three months after His passing, and read the contents. The Letter explained everything.
Q. With reference to the XVIth Karmapa�s birth, could you explain what was in the Letter? A. The place, the name of the father and mother, and the year sign (astrological) of the birth of the child - that much.
Q. And did this happen a number of months after the XVthKarmapa died? A. Not necessarily; it can be many different ways, there is no fixed way. It can happen through many different ways.
Q. Did the Lamas then wait after they had read the Letter, until His Holiness was reincarnated, and then go to Him? A. Yes, that is the way, according to whatever He wrote. We read it carefully; we see everything and then try to find out. Then, finally when we have found the child, we do many tests. For example, we take ten malas (rosaries); one belongs to Him, the others do not. These we present to the little child. The child will take the one which belongs to him in his previous life. Then ten people might be brought to him. One will be his former servant, the others not. The child will immediately go to his servant. These are examples of the tests.
Q. When is the proper time for His Holiness, as a child, to go with the Lamas to the Monastery? A. As soon as He is found.
Q. Does He receive empowerments from the Lamas who will then be His teachers? What is the path that He then follows?
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A. He will do everything as He did in His past life. This means He will go through all the studies, all the ceremonies, all the empowerments - everything - gradually. First as a child, then study how to read, how to write, then study philosophy - everything as he did in His past life.
Q. Is there a particular time or age when His Holiness will begin to give the empowerment of the Vajra Crown? A. There is not really a particular age. As soon as it is, how do you say, convenient, suitable.
Q. Situ Rinpoche, earlier you described this,.the third day since His Holiness passes. Could you tell us what will happen for the next forty days when He will be in the intermediary stage? A. I think forty days has nothing to do with that kind of Bardo state. As soon as He awakens from His present state, there can be a few days between His (how do you say) entry into the womb of the mother or there will be no time, or it can be after forty-nine days or maybe after one year. It depends - He may take birth again after ten months, one year, two years or He may not be reborn again. But He will be reborn when it is time* [* Editors note: The vow of the bodhisattva is to continue taking rebirth at the appropriate time to benefit all beings]
Q. This state that His Holiness is in right now** - this is a state of meditation - will go on for one more day. Is that correct? [** Editors note: His Holiness was declared clinically dead two days prior to this interview] A. It depends. We are not sure.
Q. Will this state, this state of Mahamudra that His Holiness is presently in continue for a period of time? A. It depends. Sometimes it is only for 12 hours, sometimes for 24 hours. Sometimes more than this, three days, a week, but no more than a week, not more than a week.
Q. What state does His Holiness enter after this Mahamudra state comes to an end? A. It is kind of a Sambogakaya stage. At present He is in kind of a Dharmakaya state.
Q. This Dharmakaya state, as you have explained is the Mahamudra? A. Yes.
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Q. When does He go into the Sambogakaya state? A. When He goes into it, we cannot say. It is very much a question of terminology. It is not only the term. The meaning is like a continual movement from the Dharmakaya to the Sambogakaya and then Nirmanakaya. They are all part of His activity. Because of this, the appearance would be the Sambogakaya or Nirmanakaya, but He is always in the Dharmakaya state. At the present, it is kind of physical; the effect is physical. He is in the Dharmakaya state. For us,on the relative level, He lived in His body for 58 years. Now He is passing away from His body, after the 58th year. Within this body, His mind is �into the straight of Dharmakaya.� At Death, this meaning becomes awareness. As soon as he wakes up from that,then it is kind of the appearance of Sambogakaya, or Nirmanakaya. But The Dharmakaya is all the time; when He is alive, or just as He is now, and after, when He will be reborn. Ultimately, the nature of His mind is in the state of Dharmakaya, of course. But it is kind of a relative level. By that I mean, all the signs, everything, are a kind of fact. . . appearance on the relative level. A hospital doctor who became very close and devoted to His Holiness with great enthusiasm and understanding, has made it possible for His Holiness to remain in the hospital, undisturbed, until His Holiness has completed this period of meditation. In keeping with the activity of His Holiness, it is necessary to be able to leave His body undisturbed. The hospital realizes that we are Dharma people; otherwise they would not allow a dead body to remain for such a long period of time. In order for the doctor to allow His Holiness to remain in the hospital, we had to offer him proof of His Holiness� state of being. Due to these unusual circumstances, before bringing the doctor into His Holiness� room, I covered the doctor�s mouth and nose, washed his hands and made a special kind of purification for the doctor. I took the doctor to His Holiness, and he examined His Holiness by gently pulling His skin and touching His heart. The doctor was amazed. He said he never saw anything like that before. He said *When a person dies, you pull the skin and it should stay stretched, His Holiness� skin reacted just as would the skin of a normal, live body.* The doctor also felt heat from His Holiness� heart, just like a live person. The doctor cried for maybe 20 minutes. Other than the attending Lamas, this doctor is the only person who touched Him. If the doctor had not been convinced, which he was, we would not have been able to keep His Holiness�s body there.
Q. How will you know when His Holiness is ready to leave this particular state, and go to the next; will you know this transition has occured? A. Everything becomes different. You pull the skin - it will stay as a dead person, and the heat will go. He will just be cold.
Q. Is there someone with His Holiness all the time? A. I am actually often there.
Q. Is He laying down? A. Yes, He is laying down, because of all the tubes and treatments. If He had died in the monastery, without all this treatment, He would have died sitting upright.
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Then it is very clear. We would not have had to touch Him. After He left the post-clinical- death state, His head would fall over and later everything would react like a dead body.
Q. Are the tubes still in Him? A. No, but He died with the tubes in Him. The doctors gave Him morphine and put Him on a pump because of pneumonia, and used a tube to drain fluid from His lungs. Evidently everything became worse -the blood pressure and everything, and then they stopped the machine and He just passed away. At this time His Holiness entered this post-clinical-death meditation state of Dharmakaya~tate, which we earlier described.
Q. Will His Holiness be moved before He leaves His present state? A. No, He is never moved. We don�t make any sounds in the room; we don�t even offer incense. Once He has finished His present state, we will offer Him a bath.
Q. Once His Holiness has come out of this state, will you then go to the airport? A. Not really. First, we will offer a bath. Then with one of the other Lamas, maybe Bardor Tulku Rinpoche or Jigmela, I will take Him to a funeral home. While His Holiness is in this present state, which can last for 3 days or for one week, His body will never show any sign of rotting - nothing. But after that, then it becomes a dead body and it will be rotting. For that reason we put medication in the body.
Q. Is that Western medication, in the funeral home? A. Yes, Western medication. In Tibet, we can leave meat for one year, like beef, we can eat, its never rotten, never, never; but here, especially in India, you cannot leave meat for even 2 days. For that reason we use the medication.
Q. At the funeral home, you will use the embalming fluid? A. Medication...and then we will dress Him.
In His robes? A. Yes, in His robes and then put him in the coffin.
Q. And then in the airplane, he will be in the coffin? A. Of course.
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Q. And then you will go to New York? A. Yes.
Q. And the coffin will stay on the plane or taken to a private room? A. No. it will be moved from plane to plane. We tried to arrange for this. Because of the requests of the people of New York, Europe, and London, we tried to arrange for a special reception room for blessings, but it is impossible because of the time and the hugh cargo (coffin), which is kind of a big trunk. Like in London, there is only one half hour. It would take one hour to move the coffin to a reception room. One half hour would not be enough time.
Q. Then when you arrive in New Delhi, will you change planes again? A. From New Delhi to Bagdogra, near Rumtek. The Indian Goverment arranged a plane for us to go to Sikkim as soon as possible.
Q. Once you have arrived in Sikkim back in Rumtek, His Holiness will be taken out of the casket and placed in the Gompa? A. Yes, we will do proper arrangements.
Q. Will He be put on His throne? A. We will make special arrangements, a new throne and a whole mandala.
Q. The students and followers from around the world, who come to Rumtek, will they actually physically see His Holiness? A. Not necessarily. You can see His body, but not very clearly. He is dressed up.
Q. Will His Holiness be sitting in meditation position? A. Yes.
Q. Do you tie Him to a board? A. Yes, we put special.......We cover over His body with cloth. We place the right Letter (syllable) of the mandala(s) all over His body, and we put on robes and a crown (not the Vajra crown, but the crown of the Dhyani-Buddhas). Those coming for blessings are not able to see His skin, but they see the whole thing.
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Q. Rinpoche, when do you expect His Holiness will leave His meditative state? A. We expected after 12 hours; He didn�t come out. We expected after 24 hours; He didn�t come out. Then we expected after 36 hours; He didn�t come out. And now I�m going for. 48 hours. I expect He will come out during this, with the sign of last night and today (perspiration on His brow). I think He will come out tonight.
Q. Does he come out of it slowly? A. There are some symptoms that will come. Some kind of sweat will come; just sweat, just really alive sweat.
Q. I�d like to go back and discuss what will happen in Rumtek. His Holiness will sit in this meditation position... A. With a great arrangement of offerings.
Q. How long will He stay there? A. It depends. We have to discuss this over there. Maybe He will stay for 49 days; maybe less.
Q. During that time, every day the monks will be doing Puja? A. All day and all night; twenty-four hours a day.
Q. At the end of that stage, what do you do with the body? A. It depends. Actually, historically and throughout the spiritual culture, they used to cremate or put Him in a tomb, a stupa, made out of solid gold. They can be 20 feet or 30 feet high. Inside the stupa, the body is properly arranged according to the mandala. My personal opinion, I don�t like the idea; for this century, I will cremate Him. If cremated, then, the ashes can be taken to different centers all over the world as Blessing and the disciples can make stupas. Therefore,there will then be relics. This will be done in Rumtek. But we all have to talk, it will be done according to the wishes of all the Rinpoches and other disciples.
Q. That certainly is a wonderful idea. A. That is my way of thinking, in this present situation.
Q. Will any of the bones be taken from the body, such as the thigh bones for ritual horns? A. No, no, that is for the ordinary people�s bones.
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Q. I ask these questions out of ignorance. A. I know, that is okay: but it is different with His Holiness. I will definitely cremate.
Q. A period of time will pass before His Holiness, the XVIIth Karmapa fully manifests his powers and assumes his position. What will occur during this period; who will administrate? A. We are all disciples of His Holiness. Historically and traditionally there are many ways this can occur. My personal opinion is that all the disciples will do their best, and not only try to follow the historical and traditional ways. This is the way I understand it, because all the disciples are responsible. Yet there must be some one who will take the overall responsibility.
Q. Taking the responsibility for making the final decisions? A. Yes. Who it will be I am not sure, but I expect that we will all do our best.
Q. We Western disciples of His Holiness have understood that the four jewels in The Vajra Crown represent Shamar Rinpoche, yourself, Situ Rinpoche, Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche and Gyaltsab Rinpoche. That you four embody all the empowerments of His Holiness, receiving the empowerments from Him and then transferring them back to Him. A. Yes, I understand what you mean. At the present I am one of his disciples, also one of the four. He really took care of us; but there are many other Tulkus, Lamas, monks and lay disciples. There are many, many. But it does not make very much sense with the Crown. This Crown is very old. It does not necessarily signify the four of us. I do not think that this is the right explanation. We are four disciples of His Holiness, arid of course historically we have great connection, but that is not the purpose of the Crown: I do not think so.
Q. I understand what you are saying, symbolically I agree with you, but as a matter of fact, in practice...of the lineage... A. At the present we are four disciples. He always said four, four, four...You must have heard Him in this way. Initially the best kind of explanation. In this way it is an explanation, but it is not really a reasonable explanation of the Crown�s original meaning.
Q. How long will you be in Rumtek? A. For two months.
Q. We trust thereafter Shamar Rinpoche, yourself, Jamgon Kontrul Rinpoche and Gyaltsab Rinpoche will each be travelling throughout the world teaching at various centers.
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A. Yes, of course. My world tour started only seven months back, and this, my first tour, will finish in the end of 1984. My schedule in Europe was almost finished, but these past 2 or 3 weeks I have had to cancel because of this situation with His Holiness. My schedule is now to return to India on the 13th of November. I next travel to South-East Asia where I will spend 7 months. In February of 1983 I begin my tour of America, and and after that I go to Europe. Then I return to India and also to those countries that I had to cancel at this time; this is very important.
Q. We hope to have the new monastery in Woodstock completed and awaiting your visit; and also awaiting the visit of His Holiness the XVIIth Gyalwa Karmapa. His Holiness taught us many lessons and hopefully we have shown Him that we in the West are very anxious to receive the Teachings and also to do whatever we can to help. While you are with the other Lamas in Rumtek, please remember our desire and offer to be of assistance in any ways possible. A. I think everything will be exactly the same, and some person will be the coordinator.
Q. Please think of us not only as students, but also remember that we have certain abilities and skills which we offer to benefit the Dharma. A. Yes, All of us have to do much effort to fulfill the wish of His H oliness to bring limitless benefit to all sentient beings. In fact, we will each have to do even more.
Sherab Barry Bryant, a student of His Holiness since 1973, resides in New York City. He is an artist, real estate developer and President of Karma Construction Company, and is the founder of The Samaya Foundation. In 1980, His Holiness appointed Mr. Bryant to the Board of Directors of Karma Triyana Dhamachakra and as its coordinator of public relations. Jerome Allan Landau, a student of His Holiness since 1976, resides in New York City, where he maintains his law firm. In 1976 His Holiness appointed Mr. Landau to serve as his leqal counsel and as the attorney and adviser to Karma Triyana Dharmachakra, In 1980 His Holiness appointed him to the board of Directors of Karma Triyana Dharmachakra.
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