Response Dispensational View of Jesus' Atonement Brother, I cannot debate dispensationalism fully here now- sorry. I do soundly reject in the strongest way & my reasons have nothing to do with eschatology. But we do see here that one's view of salvation & covenant of God effects our eschatology. I will just be able to address a few things here this morning. Sorry. (1) LS " the pre-Israelite patriarchs, the Israelites, and the New Testament Church are assumed to be but one unbroken succession"- How does scripture (NT) say that the OT saints were saved? (2) "whereas the informed, unlimited redemptionists, recognizes the dispensational features of God’s dealing with men"- This is a little humorous and bad debating - Notice he is setting a bias and is almost ad hominem. Saying that those who reject "dispensationalism" are uninformed. (3) " which is the Body of Christ"- Where will the OT saints be in eternity? Will they be on a lower lever & segregated from the NT saint? (4) In so many places in the NT we find writing that shows a continuation of progressive revelation. Consider Heb. 1:1-2 "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world." And then Paul goes on to show that Jesus was the "perfection" (completion) of all those OT typologies. (5) LS : It should be recognized that Israel is an elect nation into which each of her
succeeding generations entered by physical birth, and that there is no basis in the fact that Israel’s national election for comparison with the Church with is composed of elect individuals, both Jew and Gentiles, each one predestined, called, justified, and glorified (Rom. 8:30), and commissioned to proclaim a world-wide gospel, which responsibility was wholly unknown in previous ages. It is true that a door was opened for proselytes to enter Jewry; but whatever may have been the facts, nothing is said of their being fore-ordained to do so, or that they exercised saving faith, or that they were regenerated as men are now regenerated, or that a gospel was ever preached to them" (a) We are talking about 2 different things here. This is the question: Does all OT Jews got to heaven? Did Nadab & Abihu? They were Jews- yes even priests? They were "the covenant
people"? Korah? All those slain at the foot of Mt. Sinai? They were of the "covenant nation" but are they in heaven or hell? (b) "no basis in the fact that Israel’s national election for comparison with the Church with is composed of elect individuals"- Yes there is one very important basis that yields comparisonand LS says it himself- ELECTION! (c) Are there "elect" individuals with the "elect" nation? See above concerning Nadub, Abihu, Korah, etc., etc. What does the NT say about "individual" election among the Jews? John 1:11-13 "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive [h]
Him.But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - Blood (inheritance as Jew would not save them- not to mention human effort -flesh- of human decision will). (d) Who is Israel? Romans 9:6-12 "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s [d]descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR [f]DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as [g]descendants…. Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.” (e) How many times do we see the word "remnant" when speaking of the Jews? (ex. 2 Kings 19-21, etc.) (6) LS "…Rom. 9:4-13…anticipates no more than the ultimate blessing of Israel as a nation and
their national preservation unto the end"- Romans 9 - I mentioned earlier- show individual election & reprobation in Jacob & Esau [I wish I had time to get into this but don't. Paul's says he wish he was accursed for his Jewish brothers - concerned that they are no "saved." And back to the idea of remnant as not all of Israel is the covenant saved people Romans 9:27 " Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED." (7) "It is not until a Deliverer comes out of Zion that all will be saved (Rom 11:27)"- Paul has
already told us who "Israel" is- the children of the promise not of the flesh. Romans 2:28-29 "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God."
True "Israel" are those who had the same faith Abraham had Hebrews 11 Galatians 3:6-9 "Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer." Gal. 3:29 "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise. The OT & NT saint were both saved by faith in Christ. Quickly in Hebrews 11: v.1 "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the [conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval." v. 8-12 "By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed [i]by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. By faith even Sarah herself received [j]ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead [k]at that, as many descendants AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE." Abraham believed God (had faith) and his descendents are the children of faith. LS said they did not have the "gospel" but Paul says they "saw" it: v.13 " All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth" How did they "see" it? Through the typologies (Paul goes on "Mosesbasket"/"Abraham sacrifice of Isaac/Isaac blessed Jacob/Joseph moved my bones/etc., etc.). v. 27 (Moses) " By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen."
We are the completion of the covenant that God began with those who were saved by faith in the OT. This is what Paul says at the close of this chapter v.39-40 "And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect. I don't want to get into the Pre-trib view and LS interpretation of Acts 15- it is off topic for us. (8) " Therefore, the issues relative to limited or unlimited redemption must be confined to
this present age with its divine purpose in the out calling of the Church, or hopeless confusion must result – such, indeed, as does prevail to a large extent at this present time. Problems relative to God’s ways with people of other ages are important in their place, but are not germane to this discussion.” (1) But we see throught OT & NT a remnant (even LS says so)- so this is contradictory. And we have numerous typology of limited atonement throughout the OT. Examples: (a) Brass Serpent (only those who looked on it were saved) (b) Passover (only those who applied the blood were spared) (c) Ark (only those inside were saved) (2) There is no "confusion" of seeing God unite all redeemed from all the ages into one body (which is found throughout Paul). And pictured in OT stories like about Rahab the prostitute. (3) " Problems relative to God’s ways with people of other ages are important in their place, but are not germane to this discussion.”- I would say there are a lot of problems. To say (as some) that God had plan "a" to give His son to the Jews but they rejected so He came up with plan "b" borders on blasphemy. But (as LS) to say God had 7 different plans for 7 different people in 7 different ages is beyond comprehension. What sort of God is this? Certainly this is not the immutable, omniscient, omnipotent God of scripture. This is a god who is reacting, adjusting, responding to man- weak, poor, ignorant little god. (9) " presupostional apologetics, that being Covenant or Dispensational Theology"- this is
double talk as LS is doing the very same thing- forcing his presupposition on texts. (10) " Covenant theologians see only one people of God from Adam to this present age,
therefore, they must believe in a limited atonement." The "free will" person also limits the atonement. The Calvinist limits the intent an extent the "free will" limits its power.
(11) " the people who are already in Hell are there because they did not respond to God’s revealed revelation then (i.e. Noah who was a preacher of righteousness II Peter 2:5)."- This solves nothing as we have already seen that the OT saints were saved by faith in Christology (Heb. 11). And not ever person in the world during the time of Noah heard the message of Noah. And this really contradicts the dispen. position- as according to them the "gospel message" was unknown & unneeded only obedience to the covenant in place at that time was required. But what of the sins of all the Ammorites, Hitites, Jebusites, Canaanites- not all of them ever heard of YHWH yet God says destroy each one of them- often telling them not to leave one of them alive. Is there not a "limited" election (to nation of Israel) in OT? (b) Nowhere in scripture do we find that natural revelation is sufficient to save only sufficient to leave humanity without excuse (Rom. 1 & 3). (12) " The gospel message is for the people of this dispensation or age, and therefore they
believe in an unlimited atonement." ok, let's assume this is true. STILL have people all over the world who will go to hell without hearing the name Jesus. I live in SE Asia. I can take a 3 hour flight in almost any direction and show people who have never heard of Jesus or the Gospel. I can got to tribe Bukid or Higa-anon (sp?) people 1 hour from my house & some of them have never heard the Gospel. So this again, places a "limit" on the extent of the Gospel. Brings s back to Jesus "died" for people who will never hear His name even in this "age." Sorry, I am out of time- apologies for the fast way I have had to deal with this- God bless.
