Firmicus & Dorotheus the Third Day of the Moon

The Third Day of the Moon Firmicus Maternus & Dorotheus of Sidon Liber Tertius: Ch. XIV v 10 Complied by Ineke Firmicus Maternus - Commentary and kindly typed up by Caroline Allen Dorotheus of Sidon - Commentary and kindly typed up by Dorothy Kovach P1 -- Firmicus Maternus P 2 -- Dorotheus of Sidon P5 -- More on why the 3 rd Day P6 -- What sort of Chart P7 -- Using Technique P14 -- More Exciting Experimentation with this technique

CarO ~~ I must admit I immediately twiddled my Moon 30* as per his instructions! For those of you who may be wondering what the heck we are talking about, there is a curious ancient technique mentioned in connection with the Moon. I shall print it below:

Firmicus Maternus Caroline Allen [email protected] P 15 "In all charts you must first observe the course of the Moon; not only on the first day on which the native begins the first steps of life, but with care the third day. Notice what planet the Moon attaches herself to and with what aspect; toward whom and from whom she is moving. For on the third day the new-born infant absorbs his first nourishment. Thus, on the third day one must observe whether the Moon is diminished or full of light, and to what extent benefic and malefic planets are in aspect. For the third day, like the first, determines everything and in the same way*. If this information is carefully collected we will never be confused or disturbed in explaining the fates of men. If anything seems to have been left out in this explanation we shall discuss it in our fourth book.

(*NOTE: Firmicus is counting in Roman fashion; the third day after birth is our `two days after   birth'. The third day of the Moon is found found in a number of authors, including including Vettius Valens, who clarifies the meaning: It is actually the point exactly 30* ahead of the radical Moon (Anthology, Bk 1 Ch. 14). The two points in square to the Moon are also used: see Bk 8 Ch. II. The general fortune of the native is evaluated by considering the planets aspecting the points or  having rulership there.) Ends. CarO -- I have not had any children, but I thought that they were put straight to the breast as soon as they were born? Obviously this wasn't the case in 4th Century Rome or indeed in the 2nd century Alexandria of Vettius Valens!! silva [email protected] Children are put straight to the breast, but it is only Colostrum that is there - a woman's "Milk" does not usually come down, - be able to be suckled, until the third day after   birth........Therefore I would imagine they are saying that if something something interfered with that Milk   being produced, there would be no nourishment for the child - unless it was put to another  woman's breast, (referred to as a "wet nurse") who was lactating, it would die.

From the Internet description of Colostrum: >Your breasts produce colostrum beginning during pregnancy and continuing through the early days of breastfeeding. This special milk is yellow to orange in color and thick and sticky. It is

low in fat, and high in carbohydrates, protein, and antibodies to help keep your baby healthy. Colostrum is extremely easy to digest, and is therefore the perfect first food for your baby. It is low in volume (measurable in teaspoons rather than ounces), but high in concentrated nutrition for the newborn. Colostrum has a laxative effect on the baby, helping him pass his early stools, which aids in the excretion of excess bilirubin and helps prevent jaundice. When your baby is breastfed early and often, your breasts will begin producing mature milk  around the third or fourth day after birth. Your milk will then increase in volume< More below on this. Dorothy J. Kovach [email protected] I remembered Dorotheus (a contemporary of Firmicus) also concentrated heavily on the third day!!! I had done a chart for this, at least 10 years ago, when I first read this chapter, but not having Caro to explain things for me, I did it for the wrong day!!! (3 modern days) instead of 3 Roman days! Thanks for pointing out that it is 30 degrees from the Moon degrees.

In any event, Dorotheus was very keen on this topic and spends a great deal of time on it. I started typing it up, but realize now, it is quite long, and so I shall do it in 3 parts.

Dorotheus of Sidon Here is part one of Dorotheus of Sidon, on calculating the condition of the child's upbringing via the 3rd day after his or her birth. Kindly typed up by Dorothy J. Kovach [email protected] Carmen Astrologicum David Pingree Translator  "Book 1 Chapter 12 page '172' (the book starts on page 161, so it is actually page 11). "A Chapter. "Consideration concerning the upbringing of the native, his condition, and his livelihood." "It is necessary also to look at the sign which the Moon enters on the third day from the birth of  the native as you will know this from the place of [of the Moon] and the lord of [its] exaltation and which [planet] is associated with it and from its lord and from [the planet ]aspecting it. It indicates the native because, if benefics aspect this sign, it indicates the first thing the goodness of [his ] upbringing and [his] good fortune. "If it is evil and malefics aspect it, it indicates his misery. Look also at the lord of the house of  the Moon on the third day and mark it off, but if you find it is in a good place shining in its light or benefics aspecting it, then the native is middling in condition and livelihood, he is neither happy nor destitute. If it is different, then this is misery. " If you find the dodecatoremorion of the Moon with Malefics or they aspect it, then this is an indication of misfortune for the native. If you find the Moon Void of all the planets [and] none of them aspects it, and none is in the ascendant, or aspecting the ascendent, then this native is void of good in livelihood, possesses pain and hardship in the pursuit of what he needs. "If you find the Moon increasing and Mars aspecting it from opposition or quartile or [Mars] is with it, or [if] it is decreasing and Saturn is aspecting it, then there is no good for him in his livelihood.

"If the Moon is increasing in the direction of the north, he attains good at the end of his life, if  it is cutting from the direction of the south to the direction of the North and is ascending, then he attains good at the beginning of his life, and at its end. "Know that the Moon is best of all if it is increasing, rising in the sphere of the heaven toward the north.* "This is a symbol of prosperity and manly virtue for the native. "Look at the 10th place from the Moon; If you find a benefic in it, it indicates splendour and good for the native, but if a malefic is there, a diminution of this and injury. "If the Moon is injured and Saturn is in the 10th from it, it indicates misery and misfortune. If  the malefic is in other than the house and its place is not on this side, this is an indication of  great harm, but if a benefic is in the 10th house from the Moon in its own place, then this native attains wealth and gains in right and honesty. "If you wish to consider the parents of the native..." [To Be Continued] * When Dorotheus says north, he means the 4th house. When he says rising from the north, means the 3rd house, because if we think of the primary motion of the planets (clockwise, or  hourly fashion). The planets following the Sun, will rise in the east and reach maximum height at the MC and then begin to set, when they get to the 7th, they cross below the horizon. Once  planets in natural direction move past the IC they begin to rise. . )

The Father "Carmen Astrologicum The upbringing of the native”

"If you wish to consider the parents of the native, look for his father from the Sun and the Lord of the Triplicity because from these planets are known the lineage of his father and his livelihood (respectively). “If you find the lord of the triplicity whether benefic or malefic, in good place and the Sun also strong in its place, then this is an indicator of wealth and praise for his father. “If the Sun is in terms of the Benefics, then it is better, and it indicates with this that the native will inherit this from his father but if you find with the Lord of the Triplicity a malefic, it indicates a decrease in the property of the father and injuries and calamity. “If you find the Sun and the Lord of its triplicity in bad places, then this indicates that his father is not noble and poverty and necessity have overtaken him. “If you find the Sun in a good place, and the lord of its triplicity cadent, then this indicates that his father is noble, but he will not keep his property and his honor because the Sun's indication thus. "If you find with this, the Sun in terms of the malefics, say that his father no longer has splendor because this is an indication of service for him.

"If with this the malefics aspect the Sun, you will find illness, purification in his father. "If with this you find the Sun in a bad place and the lord of its triplicity in a good place, then say that the father of this native increases the good, and they are elevated afterwards over those whom they meet of equal position. "If you find the first lord of the triplicity of the Sun in a strong place and the second is in a bad  place, then his father at the beginning of his birth attains goodness of condition, but this does not persist until the end, and if it is the opposite, then reverse it.... "...If you find the Sun, and the lord of its triplicity in a bad place, that of its dejection (fallen), in other than its sign, then it indicates death, in a terrible place for the father. "If with this the malefics aspect it from quartile or opposition, or are with it, all the property of  the father and his mother will be squandered." -Dorotheus on the upbringing of the native part 2... (to be continued.....) [On judging the father, from the state of the Moon three days (3 Roman days, or 30 degrees ahead of the natal degree of the Moon].

The Mother and then some! "Carmen Astrologicum The upbringing of the native”

"Look concerning the matter of the mother from the Moon, and in lineage, from its place and its term and its right side and its left side and from its place in the South concerning its position relative to the ascending node and the descending node because if you find it descending toward the south or towards an eclipse or in its dejection or in the terms of malefics, then all of  this is bad for the mother, then especially if malefics aspect it. "If you find the Moon in the term[s] of the benefics descending towards the south or in a constellation with what I told you of its malefic or its dejection, then his mother is noble, but ignominy and distain and humiliation have struck her. "If you find the Moon in a cardine under the earth, then a chronic illness will strike his mother  or his mother will be harmed in her reputation. And especially if the Moon is in the Cardine of  the west or in the cardine under the earth, in the term of the malefics and the Lord of its house is cadent, then the livelihood of the mother is slavery. "If you find the Moon in a cardine and it is in quartile of Saturn or Mars or in opposition to these two or conjoining with them, then his mother will die a terrible death.... "If the nativity is in the daytime, and the Moon and the lords of its triplicity are in a good place, then this is something with respect to his mother and her end, and similarly in a nocturnal nativity. "If you find the Sun and the Lord of the triplicity of the Sun in a Cadent sign in a bad position, then judge for the native and his father affliction and misery and that sometimes his father will desire his expulsion and his ousting from his houses and his nursing will not reach weaning at

the whim of his father until the time is cut off, because in a diurnal nativity the Sun and the lords of its triplicity indicate the father, and the Moon and the lords of the triplicity indicate the matters of the native and the mother. "If you find the Moon and the Lords of the triplicity in a nocturnal nativity in a bad place, then it indicates misfortune in the condition of the mother and the native, and so on. Say in a diurnal nativity, that the Sun and the lords of the triplicity indicate the matter of his father and his end, and so the Moon in a diurnal nativity indicates the matter of the mother. "If you find the Sun and the Moon and the lords of its triplicity in a bad place, then judge for  these two together what is mightier than he has strength for of misery and little livelihood, and with this that the native will not be brought up, but be harmed by his parents, but if you find one of the benefics in a cardine, this misery is withheld from him until a rotation of that planet in which is in his cardine has passed. "If you find the Sun shining in a good place, and the aspects of the malefics while benefics aspect, this indicates the father's doubling in what there is in him of property and wealth, but it indicates also the diminution of the property of the native. "If you find the Moon thus, say the same about the matter of his mother. It is worse than this if  the Lord of the cardine the fourth, is joined because it is the indicator of the matter of the  parents. "If you find the Sun in a cadent and the malefics aspect, it indicates slavery of his father, and if  the Moon is thus, it indicates the slavery of the Mother and their poverty and their need for  nourishment day by day. If you find the lord of the ascendant cadent like this, then the native is not brought up out of misery and expulsion because he is a slave or a pauper or  in need of nourishment. " [End]

More Discussion More on why the 3 rd Day bunnies34me [email protected] Quoting from Firmicus Maternus' Liber Tertius: Ch. XIV v 10 " For on the third day the new-born infant absorbs his first nourishment. "

So it's about ABSORBING nourishment. Before the body can absorb nourishment, which happens in the intestines, not in the mouth, the meconium must be excreted. Colostrum acts as a laxative (among its many beneficial properties) and helps newborn babies to excrete meconium so they can absorb nutrition. What is meconium? "Meconium (muh-CO-nee-um) is the thick, sticky, tarry appearing fetal stool that is passed in the several days after birth (and sometimes before birth). It is the digested residue of  swallowed amniotic fluid, which contains foetal skin and hair cells in abundance. Passage of  meconium is facilitated by the ingestion of mother's colostrum." Even if a baby isn't breastfed, it's important to clear out the meconium somehow so the infant can absorb its nutrition. Even today, the third day remains the standard deadline for the stools to change from meconium to regular excreta.

Caro, Lisa and Dorothy, thanks for bringing this up. The third day criterion makes a whole  bunch of sense. In the same way that a baby's first breath is a natalization, so also its first absorbed nourishment. In my case, it's a big improvement for my Moon over its natal circumstances :-)

What sort of Chart bunnies34me [email protected] I wonder about the 30 degrees rule; the Moon's daily motion does vary. And on the third day, at the same time as birth, 48 hours have passed. Would it not be more exact to look at the degree and sign at 48 hours after birth? Might it have been because of the use of whole signs that they simply look 30 degrees ahead of the natal Moon? Caroline Allen [email protected] I haven't got that particular book by Vettius Valens, and therefore am relying on David McCann's notes.

But I would have thought it had more to do with the daily motion of the Moon. 15* is about her  top speed isn't it? (The Moon only covers 14* 50' 36'' of longitude at her maximum daily motion in February, but she belts along a good 15* 10 at her fastest in March.) And so to my mind whoever discovered this 'Third Day' stuff just calculated the maximum daily motion of  the Moon. Even dawdling along at 11* 48' 31'' (her slowest speed this month) she still hits that 30* spot in the next sign on the `third day after birth' although several hours later. > I am mightily confused about how to apply this technique.< I don't think there is anything too complicated about it. All we are doing is nudging the Moon 30 degrees along the Zodiac into the next sign and seeing what her condition and aspects are once there. Run off a chart for `now' (07:48 am GMT 17th February 2007 - this present moment in time here) and note that the waning combust Moon is at 23* Aquarius applying to the Sun at 28* Aquarius. Use this as an example chart. Then taking note that both Firmicus and Dorotheus tell us to observe where the Moon is on the 3rd day after birth, and noting also that Roman fashion means counting today Saturday the  birthday as the `first day of birth' and the next day tomorrow Sunday as the second day of birth, note that Monday would be the 3rd day n'est ce pas? And so if we then cast a chart for 07:48am on Monday 19th February where do we find the Moon? You got it! 23* Pisces!! Exactly 30 degrees further forward in the Zodiac :0)) This is because the Moon travels anything from around 11 degrees to 15 degrees a day, and she is nipping along pretty smartish right now. If the Moon was slow, she would only be at about 15 degrees Pisces this time on Monday, but she would eventually arrive at 23* degrees Pisces during the course of the `third day after birth' when the child first took nourishment. Vettius Valens insists that we stick to this point exactly 30* ahead of the radical Moon , and I should imagine that it is because we must have the 3rd day Moon in the Zodiacal Sign following the one she was in at birth. (If the Moon was in an early degree, say 2* Aquarius, and slow in motion, then she would still be in Aquarius 48 hours later at around only 25* Aquarius, which would throw the whole technique skew-wiff). So we need to have the Moon

in the same degree as the birth Moon, but one Zodiacal sign ahead. I am as wise as you are as to how to interpret this chart. But Dorotheus tells us to look at her  dispositors and the planets aspecting her and judge whether they are in a good condition or not. As you can see by our example chart, the birth Moon is combust on the 17th Feb and disposited by Saturn in detriment who opposes the Moon herself. Ugh :-( !! Whereas on the 3rd day the Moon is disposited by benevolent Jupiter strong in his own domicile, exalting the very highly dignified Venus who she will shortly conjoin, and she is also in the triplicity of Mars, and applying to sextile Mars in his exaltation no less!! A brilliant Moon to my mind and so much better than the `Birth Moon' wouldn't you think? So despite the difficulties of the natal chart, any child born at this moment in time would have a splendid `fortune' according to this technique. Or at least, that is a quick `off the cuff' way I would read this. Dorothy J. Kovach [email protected] I was wondering why this was myself. As I said before, I had not known about Vettius Valens and the 30 degrees of the Moon until you mentioned it, and calculated it wrong. I think the new way fits much better.

I learned something, too. I did not consider that the first day is the day of birth, the second, etc. Just like we walk through charts. I was wondering, like the ASC is symbolic of the moment of Sunrise, might this 3rd day chart  be symbolic of the first visibility of the Moon? "The strength of the Moon increases beginning from the night she becomes visible. And if she has conjoined the Sun in Aries, she will become visible in Taurus so the whole sign is her  exaltation." Ibin Ezra (translated by Meira Epstein edited by Robert Hand Track, Project Hindsight)

Using Technique Dorothy I thought it would be intriguing to look at some verified charts to see if there is anything to it.

Here is a person with a verified birth time where the baby was abandoned by both father and then later by his mother. Louis Armstrong's father, William abandoned the family when Louis was still an infant, and within a few years, his mother, Mayabelle also left Louis' and his younger sister, Beatrice's upbringing to the care of his grandmother, Josephine Armstrong. Lois Rodden gives: A Louis Armstrong – natal 04 Aug 1901 10.00 P.M. (6) 90.04 WEST 29.58 NORTH 18H 51M 46S Regiomontanus A Sunday night ASC 18 Aries Moon 13 Aries 25 minutes Moon is moving at 14 degrees and 10 minutes, per day. According to the PBS documentary, the moment that young Louis was born, a fight was raging outside his mothers home, and a man was stabbed to death. This moment is clearly marked by the hot Aries rising, the emotional Moon, also in the very hot, sign Aries, right on the ASC in partile opposition to her ruler of violence, Mars on the 7th!!! I love astrology!! :-)

Ah, but we were not interested in seeing that, but what we want to see whether this 30 degree, 3rd day thing reflects Louis Armstrong's upbringing. Dorotheus says, "If you wish to consider the parents of the native, look for his father  from the Sun and the Lord of the Triplicity " Okay ,so we now move Louis Armstrong's natal chart, to make his natal Moon move forward some 30 degrees (to 13 Taurus 25) . Louis Armstrong - 3rd day chart (Moon 30 degrees from its natal position) 07 Aug 1901 12.53 A.M. (6) 90.04 WEST 29.58 NORTH 21H 53M 07S Regiomontanus ASC 13 Gemini 27 minutes Louis 'Satchmo' Armstrong's Sun is now at 14 Leo 03 Minutes, and placed in the 3rd house. Since Louis was born at night, Jupiter will be his triplicity ruler. Jupiter is in the sign of its fall, Capricorn, and is very close to the 8th house of death. Dorotheus: “because from these planets are known the lineage of his father and his livelihood (respectively) " DK: So we have the father's lineage, quite good, with the Sun in Leo but Dorotheus also said: Dorotheus:"If you find the lord of the triplicity whether benefic or malefic, in good place and the Sun also strong in its place, then this is an indicator of wealth and praise for his father.” DK -- Well, even though Satchmo's might have come from a respectable family (dignified Sun in Leo) The triplicity ruler, Jupiter is both horribly defected, being both fallen and so close to the 8th. He may have had great ancestors, but in the 8th, we see he may not have been much of  a bread winner, or even dead. Dorotheus: If the Sun is in terms of the Benefics, then it is better, and it indicates with this that the native will inherit this from his father” DK -- Louis Armstrong's Sun is in the triplicity of Venus. But we must remember  that Venus in Louis' chart is at 10 Virgo, so this is both a fallen and detrimented Venus, so this may not bring the father much, even though it is a benefic and in an angular chart. . Dorotheus: "If you find the Sun and the Lord of its triplicty in bad places, then this indicates that his father is not noble and poverty and necessity have overtaken him.” DK - Here we have the Sun in the cadent and troublesome 3rd house (a house of the accidental debilitation of the Sun according to the Hindus), and we have Jupiter in the 8th house, another  malefic placement. So far, so good. So we have the father's lineage, quite good, with the Sun in Leo, but with Jupiter fallen and so close to the 8th, we see he might have had great ancestors,  but he may be heavily in debt, or not be able to make much money, with this Jupiter. Dorotheus: "If with this the malefics aspect the Sun, you will find illness, purification in his father.

DK - We see on the third day that the Sun receives the partile sextile from Mars. This does not  bode well for the Father. Dorotheus "...If you find the Sun, and the lord of its triplicity in a bad place, that of its dejection (fallen), in other than its sign, then it indicates death, in a terrible place for the father" DK -- And we see that the lord of the triplicity of the Sun is fallen, and we can expect that something dreadful has happened to the father. One way or the other, so far, I think this is working. Dorotheus: "If with this the malefics aspect it from quartile or opposition, or are with it, all the  property of the father and his mother will be squandered." DK -- though not in quartile or opposition, the Lord of the triplicity, Jupiter is conjoined to Saturn in the 8th house... Even though Dorotheus does not mention this association, I do  believe we can safely say that that this holds true for Louis Armstrong. To be continued.... sites consulted: http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/ArmstrongLouis.htm wikopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Armstrong Caroline Allen [email protected] Brilliant idea!!! Yes – but to tell the truth, I am not too sure I am `sold' on this 3rd day Moon chart to show the general fortune of the native! (see below)

Dorothy >According to the PBS documentary, the moment that young Louis was born, a fight was raging outside his mothers home, and a man was stabbed to death. This moment is clearly marked by the hot Aries rising, the emotional Moon, also in the very hot, sign Aries, right on the ASC in partile opposition to her ruler of violence, Mars on the 7th!!! I love astrology!! :-)< Oh Blimey yes! And just to make matters worse Mars is in his detriment! :-( I also see that the antiscion of the Sun Lord 4 is on the radical SN – not very auspicious regarding the home-life and father's parental care n'est ce pas? :-( Dorothy - 3rd day chart - Louis 'Satchmo' Armstrong's Sun is now at 14 Leo 03 Minutes, and  placed in the 3rd house. Since Louis was born at night, Jupiter will be his triplicity ruler. Jupiter is in the sign of its fall, Capricorn, and is very close to the 8th house of death. Big Snip> Thank you for a truly impressive demonstration of the Sun in the 3rd day Moon Chart Dorothy! Yes, thank you very much indeed! I have printed both charts out and have been following you avidly :0) If I could just add the 3rd day Moon is conjunct the SN in Satchmo's 3rd day chart separating from a trine to Saturn Lord 10 and applying by square to the Sun Lord 4. Wouldn't this too be seen as indicative of `loss' or `lack' surrounding the early home life? Firmicus Maternus is dreadfully pessimistic about this aspect and says in Liber Quartus: Ch. IX: 6: Enormous ill fortune and great catastrophes are indicated by the Moon moving away

from Saturn toward the Sun. The natives will be lunatics, madmen, epileptics, or suffer  from dropsy or elephantiasis. These evils are persistent and continue to the last day of life." Ends Hmmmmmmmmm, I am not too sure about this! Dorotheus tells us that this 3rd Day Moon is supposed to evaluate the `general fortune, condition and livelihood' of the native by scrutinizing the planets that disposit the Moon and the planets that aspect her on the 3rd day. So where do we find Satchmo's brilliant career in this 3rd day chart? I'm blowed if I can see `Satchmo Superstar' here can you? Whereas at least in his natal chart he did have a very dignified Lord 10 on the MC. I must admit, I am not quite sold on this idea yet! But thank you for a superb example and delineation Dorothy!! Angie [email protected] Thank you for a truly impressive delineation of Satchmo's chart(s). Not to take anything away from this, I would like to clarify the 3rd day Moon as opposed to looking at the father from the Sun and it's Lord, as these are two separate things.

My understanding of using the 3rd day Moon was purely using the natal chart and moving the Moon 30 degrees and seeing what aspects were shown with the Moon in this position. Using my own chart, the Moon is fairly harmless in the natal chart, but moving it along 30 degrees it then opposes both Mars and Saturn! To look at the Father from the Sun and it's Lord, my understanding is that this is considered from the natal chart, with the Moon in it's natal position. I can see nothing in Dorotheus saying about calculating a completely new chart for the 3rd day, only to 'move' the Moon 30 degs. However I may be wrong and have missed an important sentence in Dorotheus. As I said, I do not wish to take anything away from Dorothy's brilliant interpretation, but am only trying to clarify this for my own benefit. Dorothy J. Kovach [email protected] >To tell the truth, I am not too sure I am `sold' on this 3rd day Moon chart to show the general fortune of the native! <

I do not know, either. That is why I decided to test it. However, I was only working to see if  Satchmo was abandoned according to Dorotheus. I had not at all examined his livelihood. Also, we should try to understand the reasoning behind the words. Why would the Sun on the 3rd day be so important? I may be wrong, but I suspect that we are a lot more free than folks were back in the 3rd century A.D. In other words, if your dad was rich, you might inherit, have land live the good life. If dad didn't have money, and you didn't inherit, you and all your family could be sold into slavery and separated. The upbringing, was everything, because without it, you could not leave your class, as folks can in this day and age, but like I say, I don't know. I am just at the very beginning of testing it out. One chart does not make a study.

> Oh Blimey yes! And just to make matters worse Mars is in his detriment! :-( I also see that the antiscion of the Sun Lord 4 is on the radical SN – not very auspicious regarding the homelife and father's parental care n'est ce pas? :-(< I believe I have heard that it was a bordello, and that the fight was taking place downstairs. Another example, like Code 4's of two events perfectly described in the same chart. I remember Michael Lutin saying something to the effect of, " our natal chart is nothing more than transits our mother had. " > If I could just add the 3rd day Moon is conjunct the SN in Satchmo's 3rd day chart separating from a trine to Saturn Lord 10 and applying by square to the Sun Lord 4. Wouldn't this too be seen as indicative of `loss' or `lack' surrounding the early home life?< Agreed. Thank you so much for pointing this out!! Indeed it would. However, I only got as far  as delineating Satchmo's father, via the Sun for his lineage and the Lord of the Sun's triplicity for his livelihood. I had not gotten to his mother, yet, which would be suggested by the Moon's condition, nor his own livelihood, so stay tuned. Ah yes, I see, the Moon going from Saturn (coldness) to being burned in the flames of the Sun, does not say much for Louis' mother's livelihood, nor his nurturing. >Dorotheus tells us that this 3rd Day Moon is supposed to evaluate the `general fortune, condition and livelihood' of the native by scrutinizing the planets that disposit the Moon and the planets that aspect her on the 3rd day. So where do we find Satchmo's brilliant career in this 3rd day chart?< Again, I was only concentrating on the 'upbringing of the native, with regards to the father' as shown by the Sun for lineage, and the lord of the Sun's triplicity for livelihood. as per, Dorotheus suggestion. I did not yet get to either the condition of his mother, nor his own livelihood yet. > I'm blowed if I can see `Satchmo Superstar' here can you? Whereas at least in his natal chart he did have a very dignified Lord 10 on the MC. I must admit, I am not quite sold on this idea yet!<<< Quickly, because I am being dragged away, if we look at the 30 degree chart, we have MC at 26 degrees of Aquarius, with ruler of the MC, in its own sign of Capricorn. There is also the  part of Fortune in the 10th house. Ruler of the 10th house is in a separating trine from the Moon and a partile trine from Venus in the 4th house of ancestors (his grandmother, Josephine,  perhaps?). However, I shall try to concentrate on it solely from Dorotheus'  point of view when I get back. Again, please, please take everything I say on Dorotheus with a grain of salt. I am only testing this, not selling. If it doesn't work, we throw it out and move on. I just get tired of reading things without testing them to see if they work or not. Dorothy J. Kovach [email protected] Dorothy to Angie What a great point you have made. You very well may be right. I am perfectly open to it. We learn one quarter from our books,

1/4 from our teachers 1/4 from our fellow students and 1/4 over time. I tend to not just move the Moon 30 degrees ahead; because what the ancients were doing all over the place was watching omens. Nothing in the chart is in isolation, to my way of thinking, and so my logic is to move the entire chart. This way, in some cases, like for instance, a night  birth becomes a diurnal 30 day chart. I thought it would show more ramifications of the native. I come from a Vedic background where one is always looking at a variety of charts, and looking at the chart from a variety of prisms (as I was trying to explain to Tom by placing the Sun on the ASC in George W. chart some Sundays back), and when we do so, the entire chart changes, not just one item. To my way of thinking, nothing is isolation. Everything is moving in the universe, and so why would we just move one item. However, this is where it is too bad we only have a book, and not Dorotheus to explain for us. So much is left out of books. Thank you for another perspective. You may be right!! Again, I am only learning, not selling. Caroline Allen [email protected] (Dorothy) . . . Also, we should try to understand the reasoning behind the words. Why would the Sun on the 3rd day be so important?<

I don't think it is. But you were doing such a terrific job, and as the 3rd day Sun is only 2 degrees ahead of the natal Moon I didn't want to interrupt you :0) You gave us a wonderful `early nurturing' assessment from the natal (and third day) Sun alone. But as Angie points out, the `3rd Day Moon' is all about the Moon. According to my understanding of Firmicus, Dorotheus and Vettius Valens, it is the Moon on the 3rd day that is the only relevant factor here, Dorotheus tells us to look at the position of the Moon on the third day, to note not only her dispositor, but also the lord of her exaltation, and the lord of her exaltation's dispositor; then to see what planets aspect the Moon on this third day, and finally to look where the dodecatemorioan of the Moon is. All those planets that affect the Moon are taken into consideration, but not the rest of the chart. The `3rd day of  the Moon' puts the Moon's motion in the early days of birth under a microscope as it were. The Sun is as you say related to the Father, and comes in verse 15 after asking `If you wish to consider the parents of the native' etc. (Dorothy) Quickly, because I am being dragged away, if we look at the 30 degree chart, we have MC at 26 degrees of Aquarius, with ruler of the MC, in its own sign of Capricorn. < Yes, but you will agree that the natal chart says it so much more succinctly don't you think? MC at 11* 54 Capricorn with Lord 10 partile conjunct the 10th cusp. (Dorothy) Again, please, please take everything I say on Dorotheus with a grain of salt. I am only testing this, not selling. If it doesn't work, we throw it out and move on. I just get tired of  reading things without testing them to see if they work or not.< Me too! And you have done a brilliant job of demonstrating Satchel Mouth's dreadfully

afflicted Sun despite the fact he is dignified in Leo!! As I said before, you are an inspiration to us all :0) But as the natal chart says this just as well as his `3rd day Moon' chart, I can quite see why this technique has not survived :0) Dorothy J. Kovach [email protected] Ah, Mercury is getting me again. I need to clarify, something very important. I have no disagreement whatsoever that the natal chart is THE essential chart. I was not ever implying otherwise. The subchart will augment the natal chart. It will never overcome, nor obliterate. That is, I did not ever mean to imply whatsoever that the 30 day chart might be stronger than the natal. If that was the impression I gave, I truly and heartily apologize.

If anything is not good in the natal chart, it cannot be good in any sub chart. I know you are  probably scratching your head on that one, but in Vedic (and probably in Hellenistic, because all the names for the sub charts or varga charts, are Greek in origin) one uses multiple 'varga' or  sub charts, we judge the strength that the planet acquires in the sub chart, however, if the planet that is weak in the natal chart, and strong in the sub chart, the benefits of that strength is greatly diminished because it is not found in the natal chart. My approach to the 3 day chart was not to negate anything in the natal chart, but to augment it. If a planet is for instance, strong in the natal chart, and malefic in the sub chart, we defer to the natal chart. The natal chart is always the essential chart. I never meant it to be otherwise. Just a clarification. To Arthyr  Ah, but you and I are naughty ones, who have also studied a bit of Vedic, so I can see why we would think nothing of directing the entire chart. I am so glad you tested it on 20 charts. I have gone through about 5 this way, looking mostly for specific things, like, when Dorotheus says the father is rich, or disappeared, etc. , and it seemed to work for me, too! I really had thought we were on to something!!! I was really surprised, when Angie said that only the Moon is directed. It seems so un- Vedic. The reason I say this, is because Vedic is probably closer to Hellenistic than it is to even Lilly style. Since the names of the sub charts or varga charts of the Indians are of Greek root, I assumed that we would just shift the entire chart forward. Of course, I am sure that Angie and Caro are right, so even if it seems work in practice.... Angie [email protected] If I explain how I am reading Dorotheus perhaps I can make my point of view clearer.

Dorotheus, Pingree Translation Page 171, Chapter 12 verses 1-14. Consideration concerning the upbringing of the native, his condition, and his livelihood. It is necessary also to look at the sign which the Moon enters on the third day from the birth of  the native as you will know this from the place [of the Moon] and the lord of [its] exaltation and which [planet] is associated with it and from its lord and from [the planet] aspecting it. It indicates the native because, if benefics aspect this sign it indicates first thing the goodness of  [his] upbringing and [his] good fortune. If it is evil and malefics aspect it, it indicates his misery. Look also at the lord of the house of the Moon on the third day, and mark it off, but if  you find it in a good place shining in its light or benefics aspecting, then the native is middling in condition and livelihood, and he is in this neither happy nor destitute. If it is different, then this is misery. If you find the dodecatemorion of the Moon with malefics

or they aspect it, then this is an indication of misfortune for the native. If you find the Moon void of all the planets, [and] none of them aspects it, and none is in the ascendant/or aspecting the ascendant, then this native is void of good in livelihood, possesses pain and hardship in the  pursuit of what he needs. If you find the Moon increasing and Mars aspecting it from opposition or quartile or [Mars] is with it, or [if] it [the Moon] is decreasing and Saturn is aspecting it, then there is no good for  him in [his] livelihood. If the Moon is increasing in the direction of North, he attains good at the end of his life, and if it is cutting from the direction of the South to the direction of the  North and is ascending, then he attains good at the beginning of his life and at its end. Know that the Moon is best of all if it is increasing, rising in the sphere of heaven toward the North. This is an indication of prosperity and manly virtue for the native. Look at the tenth place from the Moon; if you find a benefic in it, it indicates splendour and good for the native, but if a malefic is there, a diminution of this and injury. If the Moon is injured and Saturn is in the tenth from it, it indicates misery and misfortune. If the malefic is in other than its house and its place is not on this side, this is an indication of great harm, but if a  benefic is in the tenth from this Moon in it's own place, then this native attains wealth and gains in right and honesty. [End quote] So this considered his general upbringing, his condition and his livelihood using the 3rd day Moon. He has then finished telling us of the 3rd day Moon and reverts back to the natal chart and carries on with the next paragraph begins "If you wish to consider the parents of the native" I don't have the chart details handy, and I'm all typed out, but try it out with Judy Garland's chart. Judy Garland 10 June 1933 6.00 CST -6.00 Grand Rapids, MN Asc 10 degs 54 Cancer. Chart data from Solar Fire Deluxe. Caroline Allen [email protected] In the meantime I found this very interesting article by Professor Mark Riley which surveys Valens' life and works and quotes bits from his `Anthologiae' – I will give the link below. In it he reveals Valens' didn't mention his contemporary Ptolemy at all, and neither does he cite the work of Dorotheus, Manilius or Eudoxos from a century earlier. But he DID cite Hipparchus, Apollonius, Soudines and Kidenas, Critodemus and the fabled Nechepso and Petosiris all  predating Dorotheus.

More Exciting Experimentation with this technique Arthyr [email protected] What we discovered:

The Moon was advanced into the next sign by same degree to give an indication on the first day of the baby's nourishment and to delineate our birth charts from that perspective. Dorothy and I worked on this off-list. What we discovered was a different form of delineating the chart based on the new Ascendant three days later. More on that later.

Vettius Valens (pronounced Vettius Valens) "The Anthology Book I" (Hindsight) states that the third day Moon had more to offer than just the single delineation. As Dorothy Suggested, there were additional addendums, viz ~ a 7th and a 40 day follow-up! With Valens, we are to move the Moon forward to the next sign and keep the identical degree of longitude. So, a person born with a 15 degrees Aries Moon would have a 15 degree Taurus Moon (easy so far, right?) . What Valens then proposes is we are to also move the Moon to its square position (7days) to 15 degrees Cancer, and yet another 40 days. To save a lot of time and trouble, that would equate to 160 degrees from the original 15 Aries or 25 degrees in the sign of Virgo.  Now, with this 3rd, 7th and 40th day formula, we want to discern the type of life an individual will lead, be it a life of benefit, mediocrity or one filled with diversions and frustrations. With the Moon placed in each house suggested, we look for any planets therein. As with our  example, the 3rd day moon might have a beneficial planet (Sun, Venus or Jupiter) in Taurus lending a beneficial result. Again the 7th day placement may have a beneficial planet in Cancer  adding unto the benefits and another beneficial planet with the 40th day sign, Virgo. Here would say a VERY beneficial life without too much frustration as one worked toward their  goals. Likewise, if all malefics were present in the 3rd, 7th and 40th day, we would declare a life of  frustration and discourse. A mixture of beneficial and malefic planets (in any manner) would declare a mediocre life with ups and downs. Here's a quote from Hindsight on Valens by Schmidt and Hand: " The Anthology Book I" pp38-B "Generally, then, fortunate and unfortunate and mediocre births are indicated by the 3rd and 7th and 40th days. For, if these places are contemplated by benefics in places where dealings can be conducted, and are not contemplated by malefics, you reveal fortunate and very great  births. If two of these places are regarded by benefics and the other by a malefic, you reveal mediocre births. And if the three places are regarded by malefics alone, with the benefics in aversion to them, you reveal unfortunate births. If they should be mixed, call them mediocre." Ends quote. Thanks to you Dorothy for setting the fire under me :-) As for recasting a chart to create a new delineation, and although I haven't come across any such indication to do so by our masters of ancient lore, I would suggest that the free thinking student, in the interest of exploration, do just that. . . cast a new chart for the different days regarding the different signs the Moon has influenced in the above exercise. Purists, will squeal with discontent but as I said, in the interest of exploration, I think you will find a buried treasure awaiting you! Many of these ancient manuscripts are just notes. And, as students, we all have taken notes in classes to remind us of the information we were gathering. As such, these notes were not fully descriptive of the dispensation of the knowledge your  instructor was delivering at the time but reminders to jog your memory.

So with that. . . we can look at the masters and see if they indeed gave us their "Cliff Notes" or  an entire book by which we may not stray. Dorothy J. Kovach [email protected] Arthyr, Many, many thanks for your cogent summation of the 3 day Moon.

I believe it was Caro who pointed out that Valens also said that we should look to a 7 day and a 40 day Moon. However, I want to make it clear that this is controversial work, and some  believe that we only look to the aspects of the Moon. However, it makes me puzzled why if  when for instance, when Valens wanted to examine the part of fortune, for the general well  being of the native, he would not just examine the aspects to the part of fortune, but he would also create a new chart by placing the part of fortune at the ASC and working from there. When Valens wanted to examine say the father, he would place the Sun at the ASC and create a brand new chart with the Sun as the ASC, as I tried to point out to Tom about a month ago. It was perfectly common for the ancient Hellenists to place that planet or astrological idiom on the asc and generate a brand new chart and read it from the prism of that planet as the horoscope (horoskopos in Greek means ASC or rising as you know, but for others). Arthyr wrote: >What Valens then proposes is we are to also move the Moon to its square  position (7days) to 15 degrees Cancer, and yet another 40 days. To save a lot of time and trouble, that would equate to 160 degrees from the original 15 Aries or 25 degrees in the sign of Virgo.< >Now, with this 3rd, 7th and 40th day formula, we want to discern the type of life an individual will lead, be it a life of benefit, mediocrity or one filled with diversions and frustrations. < Well, put, Arthyr, thank you. This is the crux of the matter. I cannot wait until Caro gets her  copy of Valens so we can see how Valens used this. Thanks to the input of Silva about the milk  coming down, why one would look for a 3 day Moon, but I wonder why a 7. Is this middle age? And what about the 40 degree Moon. Is this the end of life. It really gives me a great deal of food for thought. Thank you for explaining it to others. Arthyr: >With the Moon placed in each house suggested, we look for any planets therein. As with our example, the 3rd day moon might have a beneficial planet (Sun, Venus or Jupiter ) in Taurus lending a beneficial result. Again the 7th day placement may have a beneficial planet in Cancer adding unto the benefits and another beneficial planet with the 40th day sign, Virgo. Here would say a VERY beneficial life without too much frustration as one worked toward their goals.< Again, friends this research is at its most initial stages. This is the crux of the matter. I need to explain to the folks who think that we should be only examining the Moon, and not the rest of the chart. This may be true, but on the other hand, I have 2 ancient documents one, called, the yavanajataka, which is said to be the oldest extent astrology book in print, it has several chapters on the varga or sub charts of the Indians, yet there is not one word harmonic charts, nor how to calculate them. Arthyr >Purists, will squeal with discontent but as I said, in the interest of exploration, I think 

you will find a buried treasure awaiting you ! Many of these ancient manuscripts are just notes. And, as students, we all have taken notes in classes to remind us of the information we were gathering. As such, these notes were not fully descriptive of the dispensation of the knowledge your instructor was delivering at the time but reminders to jog your memory.< You said it far better than I could. I do believe there is something here worth exploring. As Sue Ward said at Fulda, we need to remember that ancient astrology was primarily an oral Art. Not only that it was an occult subject that was only meant for initiates. Arthyr: >So with that. . . we can look at the masters and see if they indeed gave us their "Cliff   Notes" or an entire book by which we may not stray.< Up until Alberuni, the textbooks written on astrology were exactly what Arthyr says, nothing more than 'cliff notes' . Bottom line, not everything in an arcane art is ever going to be fully spelled out in books. It was not meant to be. You were supposed to be immersed into the subject fully by a teacher. I do believe that we may have stumbled upon a nugget of solid gold. I also accept that we may  be well off our rockers. Take a look, see what you think. Caroline Allen [email protected] > I believe it was Caro who pointed out that Valens also said that we should look to a 7 day and a 40 day Moon. However, I want to make it clear that this is controversial work, and some  believe that we only look to the aspects of the Moon.. . .<

Yes, Dorotheus, Vettius Valens himself and Firmicus Maternus for three! They all state that we only look at the aspects to the Moon in the "3rd Day Moon Chart". Dorotheus : Carmen Astrologicum: Bk 1; ch. 12; verses 1 – 5 . Vettius Valens: Anthology. Bk 1; Ch. 14 and Bk 8 Ch. II Firmicus Maternus: Matheseos Libri VIII: Lber Tertius: Ch. XIV v: 10 & Liber Quartus: Ch 1: v7 All of the above cite the Moon as the primary factor and only note the other planets with respect to how they are related to the 3rd , 7th & 11th day Moon ( either by dispositorship or  aspect). The radical Moon and the 3rd day Moon have the same meaning but the 7th and 11th day Moons show the whole substance of life. David McCann says in his notes in Ascella version of The Mathesis that although "The third day of the Moon is actually the point exactly 30* ahead of the radical Moon, the two points in square to the Moon are also used. The general fortune of the native is evaluated by considering the planets aspecting these points or having rulership there. And Valens discusses the Moon's  phases and its astrologically significant positions on the third, seventh, and fortieth days after   birth (Anthology Bk 1: ch. 13 – 15) In that brilliant `Survey of Vettius Valens' that I gave you all the link to in my post number  30359, Professor Mark Riley says on page 28 that chapters 13, 14 & 15 in Book 1 of Valen's `Anthologiae' are devoted to: "the Moon's phases and its astrologically significant positions on the third, seventh, and fortieth days after the birth." And so I am really looking forward to receiving my copy, to see exactly what it is that Valens does say. His `Anthologiae' is not

 just a collection of notes: it is the longest text surviving from astrological literature of antiquity and is unparalleled in its detailed description of the astrological techniques in use during the first and second centuries of our millennium. Behiye Kayran [email protected] The 3rd, 7th and 40th days are fascinating. In Turkey, where I live, it is part of the traditional rituals of, not only birth, but also of death.

The 40th day is very important in the life of a newborn child. It is the landmark for "yes, he/she'll be all right", a day for celebration. It denotes relief and thanksgiving. I assume, in earlier times, the hopefully healthy children were established by that time. The expression is something like "getting safely out of the forties.." In relation to death, there is a traditional ritual of offering prayers on behalf of the dead. This happens on the 3rd, 7th and 40th days after burial. The 40th day is important and is a social occasion. It sort of marks the end of the mourning period. Also, it is not only a Muslim tradition; I find that the Armenian community holds memorial service in the church on the 40th day. I expect other communities have similar practices. I am very interested to find that the 3, 7 and 40 was significant in the ancient East Mediterranean, where the Hellenistic astrologers came from: Dorotheus of Sidon - the modern Tyre in Lebanon ; Vettius Valens from Antioch - modern Antakya in Turkey ; Cladius Ptolemy - Alexandria in Egypt ; and our dear Firmicus from Sicily, just on the border of East Mediterranean. I understand, except for Firmicus, they lived and practiced in Alexandria. Very interesting to find that, different religions or not, we are observing here the same thousands of years old traditions. Caroline Allen [email protected] Remembering that the natal position is day one, and that we start to count the next 15* along the Zodiac as day two, we get the 40th day Moon 225* from its natal place don't we? So the Moon presently at 16* 40 Virgo (at 6:38am England) would be at 1* 40 Taurus on the 40th day, and therefore only `beholding' the Moon by a platic trine wouldn't it? It wouldn't be until the 41st day that the Moon would actually perfect a partile trine to the radical Moon. Odd that!

It is so long since I studied Numerology that I have forgotten what 40 means – isn't it `completion' or something similar? But as you say Behiye, 40 seems to be a very sensitive number in all the great religions, what with the Israelites wandering for 40 years, and Jesus fasting for 40 days etc. Ruhama Veltfort [email protected] I learned that 40 is the number of gestation -- as the baby is in the womb for 40 weeks before it is born. The Israelites wandered for 40 years in the desert before they were "reborn" in Canaan. Jesus was 40 days in the wilderness.

40 days is the traditional length of time for a Sufi retreat. Often when there is a common motif in these three "Beni Israel" religious traditions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) the motif comes from earlier Near Eastern traditions. While I don't remember anything specific about the number 40, this theme of earlier Near Eastern ideas

carried into the monotheistic religions is explored in a book called "Desert Wisdom" by Neil Douglas-Klotz. [email protected] [email protected] I mentioned in my initial post to simply look at the following sign, the square and finally the sixth house. According to Valens, each house, 2nd from the Moon, the square position and the 6th house (approx 160 degrees) should have all benefics for an "estimable life," all malefic's would determine a life of hardship and any mixture would produce a mediocre life.

There was no mention of the rulership of these houses, Valens mentions just planetary residency within the houses mentioned. Behiye's mention of the 40th day as a signal for  "passing the ritual of living" for that period of time may have no other implications than that. One possible evaluation may be any planet in the 40th day 6th house may give the astrologer  an idea as to what may endanger the newborn child's life at that time, therefore allowing the new parents a chance to acquire a preventative prescription to save the child. Well thank you for those wonderful offlist posts. . . :-) I bought some special turpentine to remove the tar. . . removing the feathers was easy after I untied the bag from the inside while under the water. Okay, let's not do charts about the 3rd, 7th and 11th, and 40th day. Dispositor ship is a welcomed artefact and needs to be better explained by our informed and esteemed members steeped in the traditional style. Caroline Allen [email protected] >I bought some special turpentine to remove the tar. . . removing the feathers was easy after I untied the bag from the inside while under the water.<

Waaaah poor Arthyr! I am sorry I was so beastly to you, but in the Pingree translation at least, Valens says BK 8, Chapter II "The general fortune of the native is evaluated by considering the  planets aspecting the points (3rd,7th,11th, 40th day Moon and squares to it) or having rulership there." As does Dorotheus, who not only includes the dispositor, but also wants to rope in the exaltation ruler as well! > Okay, let's not do charts about the 3rd, 7th and 11th, and 40th day.<  No, let's do them. But let's use the dispositors :0) [email protected] [email protected] >but in the Pingree translation at least, Valens says BK 8, Chapter II "The general fortune of  the native is evaluated by considering the planets aspecting the points (3rd,7th,11th, 40th day Moon and squares to it) or having rulership there." As does Dorotheus, who not only includes the dispositor, but also wants to rope in the exaltation ruler as well!<

Well, I was reading Valens and didn't see either Pingree or Dorotheus in his book. . . but that's water under the tunnel unless somebody turns on the lights and looks for some flotsam to point at :-)

I'm wondering when Dorotheus wrote any additional information if he needed a stick to his head? Or was he simply accepted as one of the village's missing children. Apparently NO one went beyond the earlier writings or dared to mention something any differently that a Babylonian or Egyptian wrote. As a Mattaho'fak, I found a translation on some cuneiform tablet many years ago that the scribe answered a king's request to explain himself. . . his reply? "But sire, we've always done it that way." Caroline Allen [email protected] > Well, I was reading Valens and didn't see either Pingree or Dorotheus in his book. . . but that's water under the tunnel unless somebody turns on the lights and looks for some flotsam to  point at :I'm wondering when Dorotheus wrote any additional information if he needed a stick to his head? Or was he simply accepted as one of the village's missing children<

I don't understand what you mean. Dorotheus was writing around 45- 65 AD, a century before Valens who wasn't born until 120 AD. But both of them based their astrology on that of  Critodemus, Nechepso and Petosiris. And I know that you have copies of Nechepso and Petosiris' work, so are you saying that Dorotheus and Firmicus and Valens stuck in an extra bit about the dispositors? (`Erm, maybe they were those `free thinkers' you were referring to LOL :0))) hee hee! > Apparently NO one went beyond the earlier writings or dared to mention something any differently that a Babylonian or Egyptian wrote. As a Mattaho'fak, I found a translation on some cuneiform tablet many years ago that the scribe answered a king's request to explain himself. . . his reply? "But sire, we've always done it that way."< Point taken :0) Not well, but taken nevertheless >~~ CarO ~~ No, let's do them. But let's use the dispositors :0) > Nope (eyes upward, pursed lips)< I disagree. All we would be doing is looking to the new place of the Moon, discover her  dispositor, and see what aspects she makes!! What is `too much" about that?