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The Demystification Demystification of Dzogchen Thodgal (Togal), Part 3 by L. Ron Gardner on December 23, 2014 Longchen Rabjam (1308-1363) (1308-1363) is generally considered the foremost Tibetan Dzogchen guru/scholar guru/scholar in history. I’ve read a number of translations of his books, and I have not found a single one wherein he describes Thodgal (Togal) as does the poster Eliot (see his comments to my articles “Dzogchen Thodgal (Togal): (Togal): Namakhai Norbu’s Norbu’s POV Versus Versus Mine” at ElectricalSpirituality.com, ElectricalSpirituality.com, and “The Demystification of Dzogchen Thodgal (Togal), (Togal), Part 2” here at IntegralSpiritualMeditation.com.) IntegralSpiritualMeditation.com.) The fact is, Rabjam describes Thodgal Thodgal (Togal) and the Four Visions Visions in essentially the same way that I do. I have no interest in the spurious, reductive brand of Thodgal (Togal) championed championed by Eliot and current Dzogchen teachers such as Jackson Peterson (author of “The Natural Natural Bliss Bliss of Being”). Genuine Thodgal/Togal Thodgal/Togal has nothing to do with visions that one gets while gazing at the sun or meditating in dark caves or rooms. I’m not sure what Tibetan guru invented this nonsense (no doubt to “privatize”/”secretize” “privatize”/”secretize” the practice), but it wouldn’t surprise me if it was Jigme Lingpa (1729-1798). According to Eliot, “As for Longchenpa [Longchen Rabjam], Rabjam], he did indeed speak of Togal, Tigles, Vajra Vajra chains and so forth. However these have been excised from the publicly available texts with which you are familiar in order not to confuse the average uninformed and uninitiated reader.” More nonsense, I say. Doubtless a story concocted to cover up the fact that Rabjam never taught this brand of visionary Togal Togal (which has nothing to with real Togal, which is about the realization of the Dharmata, which is the same Reality as Hindu Sat-Chit-Ananda. In his text “A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission, Rabjam Rabj am describes Togal as ”resting ”restin g in the continuum of the radiance of Awareness.” There is nothing in this book regarding visionary phenonena, phenonena, which are utterly superfluous to the true Vision of Reality, Reality, the Dharmata. If you click on the link below, you will be taken to a few Google Book pages from the tome “The Practice of Dzogchen: Longchen Rabjam’s Rabjam’s Writings on the Great Perfection.” If you read the sections entitled “The Attainment of Four Visions and Ten Stages” and “Attainment of Thregchod and Thogdal,” you can compare what Rabjam says with what Eliot says. You You will also also see that Rabjam describes Thregchod and Thogdal similarly to the way that I do. https://books.google.com.mx/boo https://books.goo gle.com.mx/books?id=09rIBQAA ks?id=09rIBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT49 QBAJ&pg=PT491&lpg=PT491& 1&lpg=PT491&dq=longchen dq=longchen+rabjam+on+4 +rabjam+on+4+visions+of+tho +visions+of+thodgal&source=b dgal&source=bl&ots=1oS6l&ots=1oS6 jWrvq&sig=88hG7xWzp2RRdPGER jWrvq&sig=88hG7xW zp2RRdPGERNB2GEiJ428&h NB2GEiJ428&hl=en&sa=X&ei=93 l=en&sa=X&ei=93KXVKTuB5 KXVKTuB5bcoASzroGIDQ&r bcoASzroGIDQ&redir_esc=y#v= edir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=lo onepage&q=longchen%20 ngchen%20rabjam%20on rabjam%20on%204%20 %204%20vi vi Another point regarding these pages: In the paragraph introducing the section “Attainment of Thregchod and Thogdal,” the practice of Dzogchen is described as “the union of ultimate sphere and intriscic awareness.” In other words, so-called “nondualistic” Dzogchen can be described in dualistic yogic terms – and is Divine Yoga Yoga (or Communion) in drag. Gautama Buddha never mentioned mentioned a Rainbow Body, and his body did not dematerialize. From Eliot’s Eliot’s perspective, he did not attain Enlightenment. This means that the very foundation of Buddhism is faulty – and if the foundation is bad, then the whole religion built on that foundation is bad. But, thankfully, thankfully, one particular teaching in Tibet offers us “Rainbow Salvation” via a specific, secret Togal technique… But wait a minute, I have just reviewed Taoist Taoist master Mantak Chia’s text “Cosmic Fusion” at Amazon.com (see my one-star review), and posted the review at electricalspirituality.com. electricalspirituality.com. Chia informs us that thousands of Taoist masters (but, of course, no Buddhist masters) also attained Light or Rainbow bodies, and, in broad daylight, dematerialized. But the bad news, according to Chia, is is that it takes from 80 to a few hundred years to get a Rainbow Body (must be the “slow boat to China method”) Maybe somebody, somebody, such as Eliot, can introduce them to to his brand of Tibetan Togal, to speed up the process. Eliot has recommended a few (overpriced) books (by obscure authors) for me that supposedly elaborate the brand of Thodgal (Togal) he is into. I will not spend $30 or more for such books. But if anyone wants me to read and review these books, I will gladly do so if someone sends them to me (in which case I will mail them back after I read and review them).
{ 17 comments… read them below or add one } one }
Viennabuddha December 25, 2014 at 9:12 am Dear Ron, OM Teacher, please give us a clear statement, if you – in principle – ridicule the possibility of attaining an Immortal Body (transmutation of matter into light) or if you think that it is possible, but the published descritions are unfunded and faulty. Thank you and Namaste! VB Reply
jason king August 19, 2015 at 4:11 am You would think that someone as “fluid” in Dharma as you would be able to identify the occurrence of a simple metaphor. Reply
lrongardner December 25, 2014 at 9:47 am Viennabuddha, Viennabuddha, I’m skeptical about the possibility of physical dematerialization. And I have little regard for the little I’ve read (since little is available) of the “secret” Togal teachings that putatively p utatively facilitate the transmutation of the gross physical body into pure Light. Reply
efn April 5, 2015 at 5:23 am “which make it clear that true, original Togal is the same practice as channeling the Holy Spirit, the Divine Power-continuum” You claimed in the last post that this is what you demonstrated, but totally failed to do so. All promise no delivery, nor anything coming close to such. ” I’ve read a number of translations of his books” Longchenpa wrote and compiled over 250 works, and only about a dozen are available in English, so what you are saying here means nothing. You are not in a position to say what Longchenpa didn’t teach, especially since you clearly are unable to read Tibetan. Your posts come off as increasingly arrogant and snarky, from someone who isn’t seriously involved in scholarship nor a serious practitioner of dharma of any sort. “From Eliot’s perspective, he did not attain Enlightenment. ” That doesn’t logically follow and shows a clear misapprehension of the claims surrounding how the bodies are claimed to work and be perceived, including the total transference body. You don’t know what happened to the Buddha, like no one else does, since the earliest Pali Canon manuscripts comes in the 18th century, with only a few texts in the 15th century and 2 pages of scraps from Nepal in the 9th. “This means that the very foundation of Buddhism is faulty – and if the foundation is bad, then the whole religion built on that foundation is bad. ” This is a genetic and composition fallacy. If you apply this same level of disregard for logic in your pursuit of soteriological, doctrinal, or historical matters, then it is not shocking why your posts contain so much uninteresting drivel, asserted with no rational justification, evidence, and amounting to nothing but blind faith. article score: -1/10 literally detracting value from human existence in the manner of wasting everyone’s time Reply
lrongardner April 5, 2015 at 8:22 am efn, I’ve read all the big names in Dzogchen, and I’m clear on my understanding of this practice. If you think you know of a teaching that can “educate” me on the subject, then send it to me , and I will post my review of it here and at Amazon. Reply
efn April 9, 2015 at 9:18 am “That can “educate” me on the subject” Sure, since you lack a basic scholarly understanding, start with: “Poetic thought, the intelligent Universe, and the mystery of self: The Tantric synthesis of rDzogs Chen in fourteenth century Tibet” -David Francis Germano then: “L´Essence Perlée du Secret: Recherches philologique et historiques sur l´origine de la Grande Perfection dans la tradition rNying ma pa” by Jean-Luc Achard then: “The Funerary Transformation of the Great Perfection (Rdzogs chen)” -David Germano Or you can just put in the hard work the rest of us have that want a comprehensive and honest understanding of the subject and learn Tibetan as well as receiving the critical oral instructions on the relevant matters. Anything else is sloppy and uncritical topical research, and doesn’t provide any authority on the matter. Reply
efn April 9, 2015 at 9:11 am “I’ve read all the big names in Dzogchen, and I’m clear on my understanding of this practice.” I’ve addressed most of your comment in the part 2 section, however let me just iterate here that reading some English books on thogal isn’t going to give an understanding of the practice at all. There are not direct instructions available at all, the texts and oral instructions are all still “whispered” and maintained secret, Thogal and Yangthik cannot be currently learned in English. If you know where to look, you can learn a decent deal in Tibetan, as less than 10% of Tibetan texts are even available in English, but you don’t speak or read Tibetan. If you could provide a list of the names of all the big names of Dzogchen, that would be great, because my guess is it is laughably small considering you are stuck with vague English texts. We are still in the very early stages of Dzogchen in English, and it is a bright future in that there is still plenty of work to be done and be made available, but you have demonstrate virtually no understanding of the matters in question, not only the kayas and how they are treated in Dzogchen and Tantra, but the techniques of Thogal or Trecko. You can rationalize your blind leading the blind approach all you want, but you are demonstrating nothing but arrogance by pretending you have a clue about these practices. Anyone with any knowledge of the kayas would show a lot more humility and self-honesty about the limits of their own knowledge, and your demonstration of the direct polar of this is extremely telling. Take care. Reply
lrongardner April 9, 2015 at 3:44 pm
EFN, let me make myself clear: Dzogchen is NOT unique. It’s simply the practice of Be-ing Consciousness-Spirit (or Dharmakaya-Sambhogakaya). DharmakayaSambhogakaya = Siva-Shakti. One can dispense with make-shift terms such Trikaya and Treckho/Togal, and describe Dzogchen, as Primordial Mind, as effortless BEING, which is what Longchen Rabjam and Huang Po do. It takes no effort to BE, hence all spirituality is reducible to irreducible, effortless BEING, which is Nirvana (from the viewpoint of the yogi). Rabjam emphasizes effortlessness, and so do Zen and Advaita Vedanta teachings. Dzogchen is just different dressing for the same salad. But effortless, in and of itself, does not work as a sadhana –and my Electrical Spiritual Paradigm explains why not. Moreover, I contend that one cannot grok the EnLight-enment project without utilizing a Trinitarian framework (such as the Trikaya), and both a “Yang” consciousness practice (such as Treckho), and a Yin conductivity one (such as Togal). The Germano books you listed aren’t available at Amazon (and I don’t read French). If you send me copies I’ll read and review them. I don’t rationalize anything. Moreover, I say I’m the foremost Dzogchen exegete. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Reply
efn April 16, 2015 at 10:12 pm You are one of the most arrogant individuals I have come across. You clearly have a vested interest in selling your bullshit books and are unable to critically evaluate the material being discussed. You once again, have failed to provide any insight, any evidence, any rational. Instead, in all the articles and comments you have made, all you have is rhetoric and faith-based (read: without evidence/blind) assertions. You have no interest or knowledge of how these terms were actually used in the past and instead of honestly looking into it, you are concerned with spreading disinformation (likely to foster your booksales). ” It’s simply the practice of Be-ing Consciousness-Spirit” Prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. “One can dispense with make-shift terms such Trikaya and Treckho/Togal” Yes if you are willing to dispense with critical accuracy. As you are intent on tossing out everything that doesn’t fit into your narrow, and rather distorted newage spiritual crapbox. It is called cherry-picking. ” as effortless BEING, which is what Longchen Rabjam” Klongchenpa taught mahayoga and tantra in general, he taught thodgal, hell, the earliest instance of thodgal being mentioned is from 2 pages recovered in the 8th century.He didn’t teach effortless non-action, instead he taught non-involvement in the 9 actions of the sense-doors. “To reject practice by saying, ‘it is conceptual!’ is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided.” – Longchenpa Plus, I pointed you to a text by Longchenpa which refutes what you are saying, and you clearly didn’t read it. “It takes no effort to BE” But effortless being can also just take one to the all-basis, hell, even the consciousness of the all-basis, rather than the Base or Rigpa. So your stratagem for liberation leads nowhere. The all-basis is such an obstacle that Dzogchen considers it “like cutting off one’s head”, as while abiding in it one’s progress is stagnate towards nirvana. Yet it entails an effortless total relaxation, and your new-age babble fails to distinguish between any of these critical states. “both a “Yang” consciousness practice (such as Treckho), and a Yin conductivity one (such as Togal).” You have demonstrated time and time again that you have no idea what Thodgal even is. “The Germano books you listed aren’t available at Amazon” But you didn’t take the 10 seconds to google them? To realize they are not books but academic works publishes openly on the internet? This is indicative of the type of sloppy scholarship you demonstrated. “If you send me copies I’ll read and review them. ” Who cares about your reviews? You are coming from a biased perspective intent on spreading new-age babble and profiting on your own ignorance by selling your books. Why would anyone take your reviews seriously? It is like taking seriously the reviews of dental hygienist on Penrose’s work on spin theory, it would just be laughably pointless. A complete waste of time. “Moreover, I say I’m the foremost Dzogchen exegete. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.” Well you are delusional enough that you smoking hard drugs would be a reasonably apt explanation for your grandiose delusions. Reply
lrongardner April 11, 2015 at 7:59 pm Note: I found an online PDF of Professor David Germano’s writings on Buddhism (“Study of the Alaya-Vijnana”), and below is a pertinent excerpt (Contemplative Functions: the Gnostic Transformation). What do I think of Dr. Germano’s writings on Togal (Thodrgal) and Treckho (Khregschod)? Pure academic bullshit! He not only can’t write clearly and simply, he doesn’t understand what Togal and Treckho are about. I stand by what I’ve written and reject his descriptions of the practices. Contemplative Functions: the Gnostic Transformation These models of the unconscious dimensions of being as well as bifurcated models of creation and agency are clearly manifest in the Seminal Heart’s contemplative traditions . The contemplative focus on the foundational consciousness is chiefly on its eradication through traditional practices of “calming ” ( famatha) and insight (vipafyana) . These function to deconstruct the foundational consciousness ’s sedimented patterns, while also opening up a clearing for the divine ground’s efflugence to emerge in the field of reflexive awareness . Similar practices include meditations on the sounds of the elements (wind, water, etc .) through cultivating calming based upon the sound of natural elements, as well as the
“differentiation of sa sara and nirvaja ” (‘khor ‘das ru shan) practice in which people act crazily in an isolated valley until pure fatigue exhausts ordinary constructions of experience . This culminates in the breakthrough (khregschod) contemplative praxis, which essentially is a form-free relaxed presence of mind immersed with in the depth unconscious of the ground. However, the most distinctive contemplative practices are those focusing on a deeply somatic experience of creative imaginal processes termed “direct transcendence ” (thodrgal) . This core practice involves cultivating a spontaneous flow of images understood to be the effulgent flow of luminosity from the heart’s universal ground through the eyes into exterior space . As this ordinarily unconscious process becomes reflexively self-aware, an alternative form of organization and patterning comes to the fore . Hence a dual tracked contemplative model is explicitly geared toward first eradicating the shallower layers of unconscious processes, and second bringing deeper processes into reflexive awareness . Reply
efn April 16, 2015 at 10:22 pm Your excerpt shows nothing but an academic who provides a lot more detail and research into what he discusses then the new-age babble you think seriously retorts it. You didn’t actually address anything, just more blind, faith-based rhetoric. “Pure academic bullshit! ” What I recommended to you was to read his Phd thesis, which is over a thousand pages of research done over many years full time. It examines actual evidence at length, how the terms were actually used, and what texts and historical records we have to demonstrate such. His work is considered extremely rigorous and highly refined, he is considered one of the foremost scholars on the matter, by Buddhists and buddhologists alike. A sign of narcissism is someone with no expertise, who demonstrates a poor understanding, still thinking they are superior to actual experts while simultaneously failing to rigorously demonstrate such. You’re no scholar, no trained yogi, no expert, you’re just a guy who read a few books and is trying to make money (or, in lessor of the two possibilities, actually are suffering from grandiose delusions, to the extend that your uncritical and sloppy rhetoric seems to demonstrate). So, you claim to know for sure what thodgal is. Could you be wrong? You claim to be certain and “clear in your understanding”, whatever that means, so if you are so certain, demonstrate to us, WITH EVIDENCE, so that we all can become so certain. The EVIDENCE alone should be so compelling that we all reach the same level of certainty as you do, including the academic experts. I sincerely want to have the clearest picture of this and I would like Buddhists and the relevant academics do so too. Please provide rigorous evidence that so compels us all, for all of our sakes, so that we may become so cocksure as you. Thus far you have just made blind assertions, provided no rational evidence or otherwise, merely unjustified assertions, so now, to finish up your several articles of rhetoric, is the time to “put up or shut up” and let the evidence speak for itself. If you are unable to do this, then how in the world can you claim to be certain beyond all reasonable doubt about your own conclusions on the matter? How could you then avoid the possibility of being wrong? Again, I beg of you, no more rhetoric, just provide all the evidence you have gone over that leads to you complete certainty on this matter, beyond all reasonable doubt. Thanks for your time, and I await this treasure trove of you actually demonstrating the truth of your claims (WITH CLEAR EVIDENCE). Reply
gnbmoreira May 14, 2016 at 4:31 am Hi EFN, I find your comments really really interesting. Do you teach about these matters? Reply
lrongardner April 17, 2015 at 5:45 pm EFN, I don’t have the time or interest to read Germano’s 1000-page PhD dissertation (and given your low opinion of me, I have no idea why you’d be in interested in my opinion of it). If he writes a Dzogchen book that’s available for a reasonable price (or someone sends me a copy), I’ll read and review it. I’m simply unimpressed with what he wrote above; it’s what a clueless pointy-headed professor would write. “Cultivating a spontaneous flow of images” has nothing to do with real contemplation, real togal. Real contemplation, real togal, is imageless, because it’s about the Clear-Light continuum or flow. When you can find Rabjam and Padmasambhava describing togal the way Germano has, let me know. Reply
Dharma July 31, 2015 at 2:03 pm Here are some Amazon available books that describe precisely what “Thogal” practice and how the practices are performed: Heart Drops of the Dharmakaya by Shardza Rinpoche Awareness by Karma Chagme translated by Alan Wallace Wonders of the Natural Mind by Tenzin Wangyal They accord with all Dzogchen masters from both Bon and Nyingma. The early 11th century Dzogchen Tantras of the Nying Thig cycle also explain Thogal identical to Namkhai Norbu and Lonchenpa. Lonchenpa explains the sun gazing methods of Thogal also in his Nying Thig commentaries. Also Jigma Lingpa’s Yeshe Lama describes Thogal identically to the early 17 Nying Thig tantras. There is no channeling of Spirit or any higher energy in Thogal practice. Thogal works with activating inner lamps or “dronma” using secondary light sources such as the sun, moon, candle lights etc. that cause spherical light appearances before one’s eyes that evolve into intricate Buddha mandalas and inner awareness ( rigpa) to maximize resulting in a total transformation of the physical body into its essential elements of Light.
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lrongardner July 31, 2015 at 2:45 pm I’ve reviewed, at Amazon, “Heart Drops of the Dharmakaya” (see my one-star review of this crummy text) and “Wonders of the Natural Mind” (see my three-star review).The Nying Thig and Jigma Lingpa are a joke regarding Togal (see my three star Amazon review of “Approaching the Great Perfection: Simultaneous and Gradual Methods in the Longchen Nyingtig”). Anybody who believes that Lingpa is the reincarnation of Rabjam or got Longchen Nyingtik from him is smoking some strong stuff. I’ll say it again: Togal (“Leap-Over, the “Direct Approach,” or “Spontaneous Presence”) is simply direct, immediate connectedness to the ‘Other Side,’ the Sambhogakaya, the Blessing/Blissing Clear-Light Energy Dimension of the Dharmakaya, and then conducting this Light-Energy continuum, or Divine Power, which is the same “Body” as the Christian Holy Spirit and Hindu Iccha/Ananda/Anugraha Shakti, which is received as Shaktipat. The Dzogchen “masters” are all confused in various ways, including Longchenpa. But I cannot devote my life to in-depth deconstructions of every Dharma out there. I will eventually write books on Buddhism and Dzogchen — and people will be free to respond to the Buddhadharma I promote. Reply
Dharma August 1, 2015 at 12:20 pm It’s clear you have no idea of what you are talking about. The entire Dzogchen and Nyingma lineage present Dzogchen Thogal teaching instructions in complete accordance with how Norbu and all the current masters describe. You are the only human on Earth who states otherwise… not because of wisdom or scholarly knowledge but because of pure stupidity regarding the topic. Just give it up and go back to your new age crap.., Reply
lrongardner August 1, 2015 at 6:57 pm Dharma, anybody who truly understands what Conscious Spirit-ual life is about will laugh at the Togal practices pushed by Dzogchen. They involve remedial subject-object entanglement, and focus on phenomenal experiences and the spiritual search. What’s amazing is that when I read Longchenpa, he repeatedly emphasizes effortlessness and non-seeking, and correlates this with Treckho, but then in a single, isolated statement, he says Togal involves effort. He doesn’t elaborate, because that would make him look like a fool. True Togal is, as Longchenpa states, “resting in the continuum of the radiance of awareness.” That is exactly what Shaktipat, conducting the Spirit-current, is about. I repeatedly read the terms “Grace Waves” and “Gift Waves” in Tibetan Buddhism. This Grace, or Blessing/Blissing Clear-Light Energy, is Divine Power, Ananda/Iccha/Anugraha Shakti. Clear-Light Energy cannot be seen, only felt. The Rainbow Body is the secondary, “prismatic” effect resulting from the Clear-Light intersecting and divinizing the incarnational body. Reply Leave a Comment Name * E-mail * Website
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