The Astronomical Basis of the Catur Yuga - AIA

The As Astronomical Ba Basis of of th the Ca Catur Yu Yuga Sys Systtem

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The Astronomical Basis of the Catur Yuga System Wednesday, 20 July 2011 - Ishwardas, AK Kaul, Sreenadh OG User Rating: Poor Tweet

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[Participants: Ishwardas, AK Kaul, Sreenadh OG]

[Editor: Some of the responses in the below thread is from a mail forwarded from HinduCalendar Group to AIA, remaining part is the discussion that happened in AIA itself.] Ishwardas: Ishwardas:

--- In [email protected] [email protected] , , "Ishwardas" "I shwardas" ishwardas.prakash173@ wrote: Further to my message #2119 #2119 of July 6, 2007, "Kali Yuga and the the

Sumerian Connection": Connection":

THE ASTRONOMICAL BASIS OF THE CATUR YUGA SYSTEM

It has has beco become me cust custom omary ary in "prog "progre ress ssiv ive" e" acade academi micc and poli politi tical cal circl circles es to look look upon upon a consid considerab erable le portio portion n of Hindu Hindu tradit tradition ion as "inven "inventio tion". n". The well-k well-know nown n and, and, we may add, add, long-established Catur Yuga system is one of the prominent targets of the aforementioned trend (along with caste, idol-worship and polytheism). In order to counter such anti-traditional tendencies, it is my intention to demonstrate that, far from being mere "invention" the traditional Yugas (Ages) as units of time are in fact mathematically connected with the astronomical phenomenon known as "the precession of the equinoxes". In doing so, I no more than repeat what has already been pointed out by the late Professor Joseph Campbell (1962) and others. By way of introduction, the following may be said in respect of the historical background of the Yugas. It is generally accepted that a cultural continuum once existed which spanned the entire area between the Tigris and the Indus. It is therefore to be expected that Ancient India and Sumer had certain cultural elements in common. Timekeeping and the calendar could have been part of this common heritage. Acharya Abhinavagupt Abhinavaguptaa in his Tantraloka antraloka describes a method method of calculating calculating the passage of time which may be part of a very ancient tradition belonging to a cultural substratum shared by both Ancient India and Sumer. On the evidence of the Tantraloka itself, this tradition is sexagesimal (base sixty) and hence essentially e ssentially identical to that of Ancient Sumer. [We may keep in mind, as a standard of reference, that one complete breath - or act of respiration consisting of one inhalation and one exhalation - has the duration of ten nimeshas (or "moments") and that one nimesha (or moment) equals 0.4 seconds. Hence one breath (or ten moments) equals 4 seconds, 6 breaths (or 60 moments) equals 24 seconds, sec onds, etc.] As per the Tantraloka: Tantraloka:

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6 breaths = 1 cashaka (= 24 sec.) 60 cashakas = 1 ghatika (= 24 min.) 60 ghatikas = 1 day and night (= 24 hrs.) 60 days = 1 season (= 2 months) 60 seasons = 10 years 360 seasons = 60 years 360 years = 1 Year Year of the Gods 360 srishtis (creations) (creations) and samharas (dissolutions) (dissolutions) of Brahma = 1 Day of Rudra, etc. (Tantraloka, (Tantraloka, Ahnika VI). 1 Firstly, the above are perfectly logical divisions of time to which no one can reasonably object. For example, if some divide the day into 24 hrs. and further into 1440 min., we may equally divide it into 60 ghatikas and divide it further into 3600 cashakas, etc. 2 Secondly, even on the hypothetical hy pothetical assumption that the above tradition was originally Sumerian, we cannot logically reject it on that ground. For, as already stated, it may have formed part of an ancient Hindu tradition, transmitted orally from guru to shishya for centuries before Acharya Abhinavagupta's own time. Indeed, the Acharya did not regard himself as the initiator of this tradition but as the recorder of what was already ancient. This is why he concludes the chapters on time with the following statement: "This is the true nature of time as confirmed by our own experi experience ence,, by tradit tradition ion,, by the gurus gurus and by script scripture ure." ." In conseq consequen uence, ce, irresp irrespect ective ive of its ultimate origins, this may have formed part of Hindu tradition for long enough for it to qualify as Hindu for all practical purposes. 3 Thirdly, we cannot object to sexagesimal counting in principle since it is universally used in seconds, minutes, arc degrees, etc., and we ourselves are using ghatikas of which there admittedly are 60 in a day and night. 4 Fourthly, 60 represent the very basis of our own Catur Yuga Yuga system: 60 x 2 x 60 x 60 = 432000 (Kali Yuga) 60 x 4 x 60 x 60 = 864000 (Dvapara Yuga) 60 x 6 x 60 x 60 = 1296000 (Treta Yuga) 60 x 8 x 60 x 60 = 1728000 (Krita or Satya Yuga) 60 x 20 x 60 x 60 = 4320000 (Catur Yuga). 5 Fifthly, two important, universally accepted facts must be considered in this context, namely, that: that: (a) there are 360 arc degrees in a circle and (b) (b) there is an equinoctial equinoctial precessi precession on of 60 degrees in 4320 years and of 360 degrees (i.e., a complete cycle) in 25920 years. This brings our attention to the crux of the matter. For, as becomes apparent, there is a relation between the above factors of the equinoctial precession and the Catur Yuga Yuga system. i. 60 x 72 = 4320:

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4320 x 100 = 432000 (Kali Yuga) 4320 x 200 = 864000 (Dvapara Yuga) 4320 x 300 = 1296000 (Treta Yuga) 4320 x 400 = 1728000 (Krita or Satya Yuga)

4320 x 1000 = 4320000 (Catur Yuga)

That is, a precessional lag of 60 degrees, 72 years y ears per degree, multiplied by 100 equals the number of years in Kali Yuga; Yuga; multiplied by 200 equals the number of y ears in Dvapara Yuga), Yuga), etc.

ii. 360 x 72 = 25920: 25920 : 60 x 1000 = 432000 (Kali Yuga) Yuga) 25920 : 30 x 1000 = 864000 (Dvapara Yuga) Yuga) 25920 : 20 x 1000 = 1296000 (Treta Yuga) Yuga) 25920 : 15 x 1000 = 1728000 (Krita or Satya Saty a Yuga) Yuga)

25920 : 60 x 10000 = 4320000 (Catur Yuga)

iii. 4320 and 25920 themselves may be brought into relation to each other as follows: 4320 x 60 : 10 = 25920 25920 : 60 60 x 10 = 4320

What has been demonstrated is that the sexagesimal number system enables us to establish a relatively simple mathematical relation between 60 and the precession of the equinoxes as well as between these and the Hindu Catur Yuga system. It follows that the Catur Yuga system is related to astronomical factors. This relation need not be a Sumerian discovery. It may well be Indian. Either way, it is a fact. If we divide time into ghatikas, muhurtas, hours, days and centuries, then we can equally well measure measure greater greater spans spans of time time in Yugas, ugas, Catur Catur Yugas ugas and Kalpas. Kalpas. And since, since, as has been demonstrated, the Yugas Yugas are mathematically connected with astronomical observations, neither the Yugas nor the associated Kali Samvat calendar may be rejected as spurious. Since Yugas Yugas must necessarily have a beginning and an end, e nd, we are entitled e ntitled to define the beginning

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of the current Kali Yuga, for example, as being mean sunrise at Ujjaini on the 18th of February, 3102 BC, in the Gregorian calendar. Exact Exactly ly why this this particu particular lar mom moment ent was chosen chosen must remain remain the subject subject of som somee future future investigation by historians, astronomers and religious scholars. It may or may not be historically connected with Lord Krishna's departure from this world. Suffice it to say for now that it is part of our Hindu tradition. This of itself is good enough reason to continue to observe it. IP (Ishwardas Prakash) AK Kaul:

--- In [email protected] [email protected] , , "A " Avtar Krishen Kaul"
Further to my previous message, In your message # 2123 of July 9, 2007 you are asking: "Besides, can you just name any purana or any other work, for that matter, which refers to Kali

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Era?" I find the above somewhat puzzling. Perhaps you could elucidate as to the exact meaning thereof. Kali Yuga, is of course, mentioned in numerous Sastras: Manu Smriti, Ch. 1, 85; Mahabharata, Adi Parvan, Ch. 2; Vishnu Purana, V, Ch. 38; etc. Incidentally, the Shiva Purana, Rudra Samhita, Srishti Khanda, Ch. 10, 21-24, has the following passage: "21600 breaths constitute the period of one day and night. 6 breaths constitute one Pala; 60 Palas constitute one Ghati. 60 ghatis constitute one day and night" etc. The above is of course the same teaching as that found in the Tantraloka. As stated before, the Yugas may not occur in the Rig Veda – nor do they have to – but they certainly certainly are frequently frequently mentioned mentioned in the Puranas Puranas and other other Sastras. Sastras. Even on the hypothesis hypothesis that these are "interpolations" the question must be asked as to who might have been the author of so many "interpolations" and what might have been his motives. In any event, the Yugas remain part of the Hindu Dharma as we know it and I can see no reason why a Hindu calendar should ignore them. AK Kaul:

The references in the shastras are to "Kaliyuga" and other yugas and not to the starting date of Kali era, that also an astronomical one! The starting date of Kali Era arrived at by Aryabhata is through back calculation of an imaginary planetary setup as given in the Surya Siddhanta of Maya the mlechha! In other words, the first and last "astronomical" reference to the start of Kali Era is in the Surya Siddhanta and not in any of our sastra! If the so called Kali Era had been prevailing prior to the SS, The Vedanga Jyotisha or the Pitamaha Siddhanta etc. etc. would certainly have referred to it. The first available indigenous astronomical work viz. the VJ has, on the other hand, referred to a five year yuga and so has the Mahabharata! It appears Maya the mlechha had stayed in India for quite sometime and after having understood the the ethos ethos of the the Hind Hindus us here, here, he want wanted ed them them to be astro astro-b -buf uffs fs in whic which h he succe succeed eded ed marvelo marvelousl usly! y! As a "proof "proof"" of his "tapasya" "tapasya" havin having g been been "reward "rewarded" ed" by Surya Surya Bhagwan Bhagwan,, he concocted the fundamental arguments of planets and arbitrarily fixed an imaginary date when they were zero! This is evident from the fact that the mean longitudes are zero for Ujjain Mean Midnight! In other words, it was still Dwaparayuga for areas like Assam, Orissa, Bengal etc. but had already started in areas like Delhi, HP, UP etc. etc. Obviously, we have become so addicted to the SS of Maya the mlechha, we just do not see as to what a fool he was making of us! What made the matters worse is that Phalit jyotishis like Varahamihira lapped it up like ducks taking to water since they wanted to show that the predictive gimmicks they were using had "divine sanction"! They found refuge in the SS since it was "revealed" by Surya Bhagwan. Similarly, no wonder, wonder, that "Muladhara Ayanamshawallas" find the Surya Siddhanta a divine work even today! They must be really "extraordinary astronomers". Sreenadh:

The word 'Mlechha' originated from the place name 'Meluhha' which is nothing but Harappa.

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Mlechha means Harappan! Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meluhha By the way, you are mistaken about Mihira; didn’t you notice that he was using Sayana system? You should have. :) Ishwardas Ishwardas Prakash:

1 Unfortunately, your reply does not appear to address the important points which I raised in my message #2127 of July 13, 2007, in reply to your objections. Moreover, what is the astronomical basis for the assertion that the Vedas were written in Kali Yuga? Are we to take the western view that the Vedas were composed a few thousand years ago or the Hindu view according to which the Vedas Vedas are eternal? The The fact fact is that that,, in Hind Hindu u trad tradit itio ion, n, the the Vedas edas are a mani manifes festa tati tion on of Pran Pranav avaa whic which h is Shabdabrahman. As such they are eternal. Thus there can be no question of the Vedas being written at a particular time. We must be careful not to confuse "written" in the sense of (a) "recorded in written form" with "written" in the sense of (b) "composed". "c omposed". That the Vedas Vedas must have been written down in sense (a) at some point in time is obvious. In sense (b), on the other hand, they were never composed but perceived through their spiritual faculties by the Rishis and transmitted to mankind in the same way as, for example, a distant star which is as old as the universe and normally invisible to the naked eye might be seen by an astronomer by means of a telescope and its existence subsequently communicated by him to others. 2 Regarding the beginning of Kali Yuga I would like to draw your attention to the fact that it is traditionally linked with certain planetary alignments as well as with Sri Krishna's departure from this world. On what basis are we to reject either the said planetary alignments or Sri Krishna's departure? Until the above issue has been scholarly resolved, we may concentrate on the larger picture which is the measurement of time in Yugas Yugas – to which you y ou are objecting. Please see my reply to your objections in message #2127 of July 13, 2007, to which I would like to add the following f ollowing observations. As far as I am aware there seems to be a rising interest among physicists and cosmologists in the theory of recurring or cyclical universes (see Ashtekar, Bojowald and others) – which, I may add, is consistent with the conservation of energy and other accepted scientific facts regarding the physical world. Suppose in 10, 20 or 60 years from now this theory gains wide scientific acceptance. Who will then be the laughing stock of whom? The fact is that there is more to Hindu Dharma than astronomy. Therefore, we must be careful not to seek to reduce Hindu spiritual teachings to astronomical observations or make them conform to non- Hindu beliefs about the universe.

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You are asserting that references to the Catur Yuga system in the Puranas and other Sastras are later "interpolations". Firstly, it is difficult to see how such interpolations would have been inserted in the Manu Smriti and other Sastras which predate Ary abhata. Secondly, even on the hypothesis that these references are actual interpolations, they could not have been the work of one man. If these interpolations found their way into our Sastras this could only have happened if they were accepted by the religious scholars of the time. And if they accepted them, what reason do we have to reject them? The teachings concerning the Catur Yugas are certainly not contrary to Hindu Dharma. The doubt as to why the Catur Yuga system is found in the Puranas but not in the Vedas is understandable. However, However, I would like to suggest a very simple answer. answer. As per the Manu Smriti, I, 23, and other Sastras, the Vedas are for the performance of yajnas. The Rig Veda, Veda, in particular, is for Brahmins B rahmins who specialize in yajnas. y ajnas. It is not meant for the uninitiated masses. This is why, as per the Manu Smriti (IV, 99, etc.) the Vedas were not considered suitable for Sudras Sudras – who were uninit uninitiat iated. ed. Indeed, Indeed, even even today today,, it is diffic difficult ult for outsid outsiders ers to fully fully understand the Vedas without specialist guidance. Apart from the fact that the Yugas would naturally have been known to Brahmins, no special mention of the same was required in the Vedas for the purpose of yajnas. Hence it ought to be obvious that there was no need for the Vedas to mention Yugas. In contrast, the Puranas had a totally different function. They were meant for the instruction and enlighten enlightenment ment of the masses hence they contain many details details and narratives narratives for that specific specific purpose which are not given in the Vedas. Vedas. And this includes the Yugas. Yugas. Thus it is self-evident that the Puranas in no way contradict the Vedas Vedas but complement them. Nor must we forget the fact that the Puranas are called "Puranas" precisely because they are ancient. To return to the sexagesimal system given in the Tantraloka and the Shiva Purana. It is beyond dispute that a sexagesimal system sy stem of timekeeping is in agreement with the Vedas Vedas where mention me ntion is made of six seasons (of sixty days each) and a year of 360 days (literally, 720 "sons" or day and nights: Rig Veda, I, 164, 11, etc.). This sexagesimal system is also found in the Arthashastra (2.20.29- 34, 36) where a Nalika is given as the basic unit of time. A Nalika is there defined (2.20.25) as "the time it takes for one adhaka (1.87kg or liters) of water to flow out of a pot through a hole of the same diameter as that of a wire wire 4 angulas long made out of 4 mashas of gold. This would be a hole approximately 0.6mm diameter (23 or 24 gauge wire). Kangle [The Kautiliya Arthashastra, 1966] gives the definition `Two nalikas make a muhurta'" (The Arthashastra, translated by L. L . N. Rangarajan, 1987, p.772). Evidently, Evidently, a Nalika is identical to a Ghatika as defined in the Surya- Siddhanta, Ch. XIII, v. 23, viz. as the 60th part of a day and night. What is essential to bear in mind is that: (a) both units of time, that is, the Nalika and the Ghatika, amount to the 60th part of a day and night, and as this is the basic unit of time, it follows that we are dealing with a sexagesimal system of timekeeping; and (b) as the Arthashastra is no later than 150 CE, the above system predates Aryabhata. Further on the evidence of the Arthashastra (20.20.37, 38) it is evident that Indian astronomers were aware of solstices and equinoxes which indicate that they must have been aware of the precession of the equinoxes too.

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It follows that knowledge of the precessional lag combined with a sexagesimal number-system could easily have resulted in the concept of Catur Yuga or Maha Yuga of 4320000 years. For, 4320000 is nothing but 4320 (the number of years required by the precessional lag to gain 60 degrees) multiplied by 1000 – a very simple mathematical calculation of which I am confident our Hindu ancestors must have been capable. I am equally confident that you y ou will admit this much. In consequence, the concept of Catur Yuga or Maha Yuga need not have been borrowed from the Babylonians or introduced by Aryabhata. Moreover, it is as valid a unit of time as the millennium which is nothing but one year (the time required by the sun's apparent motion in relation to the earth to complete its journey and return to the starting point) multiplied by 1000. Here is an interesting piece of information of which you may already be aware. The 7th century Syrian bishop Severus Sebokt, though a "mleccha" and a Christian, was an educated man – as many bishops were. He was familiar familiar with Greek, Babylonian and Indian science. Irritated Irritated by the belief that Greek learning was superior to that of other civilizations, he wrote a short a rticle in 662 CE for the purpose of refuting this belief. The following is an excerpt from the manuscript published by F. Nau in "Notes d'astronomie indienne". JA 10/16: pp. 209ff. Paris, 1910, quoted in Georges Ifrah, The Universal History of Numbers, Volume Volume II, p. 719: "`The Hindus who are not even Syrians, have made subtle discoveries in the field of astronomy which are even more ingenious than those of the Greeks and the Babylonians; [….] their skillful methods of calculation and their computing belies description'". In other words, while medieval "mlecchas" held Hindu science in high regard, thirteen centuries on, we ourselves seem to have nothing better to do than dismiss our own tradition as "inventions borrowed from the Greeks". My only only concern concern is that, that, should should this "progress "progressiv ive" e" trend trend be allowe allowed d to come come to its its natura naturall conclusion, we shall soon discard our Hindu traditions altogether and celebrate Yugadi at Winter Solstice – or Christmas Eve. Sreenadh:

Nalika, Khatika are the same. same. In south India the same is known as 'Nazhika' now as well. well. i.e. Nalika = Nazhika = Khatika = 1/60 th of a day. The sexagesimal subdivision of the same is, Vinazhika = Vikhatika = 1/60 th of Khatika/Nazhika/Nalika The instrument for measuring Nalika/Nazhika is known as Nazhika vatta (circular hourglass like instru instrumen mentt for measur measuring ing Nazhi Nazhika) ka) in south south India. India. Exact Exactly ly the same same which which is describ described ed by Vishnugupta in Arthasastra. P.S: Vishnugupta, Vishnugupta, Kautilya and Canakya Canaky a are different individuals; Vishnugupta Vishnugupta wrote Arthasastra. Kautilya and Canakya are scholars of Arthasastra and Neetisastra who lived prior to Vishnugupta and wrote texts on the same as evident from Arthasastra itself. Ishwardas Ishwardas Prakash:

The argument argumentss advanc advanced ed in favor favor of a reform reformed ed Hindu Hindu calenda calendarr are fairly fairly convi convinci ncing. ng. The arguments for the abolishment of the Catur Yuga Yuga system are not.

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For example, the fact that the term "Yuga" referred to a period of five years does not amount to proof that the Catur Yuga system was a late introduction. To begin with, the primary meaning of "Yuga" is "yoke", "team", "group". It refers to a plurality of things and is not intrinsically connected with the number five. Which is precisely why it came to mean age or period of many years (see Atharva Veda, etc.). In the Gita (4:8), Sri Krishna says, "sambhavaami yuge yuge" (I take birth in Age after Age). Obviously, "Yuga" here cannot be reasonably interpreted as "five years". On the contrary, it is evident that it refers to a large span of time and indicates that belief in Yugas in the sense of recurring Ages was already prevalent in India long before Aryabhatta. Indeed, the Buddhists also believe in Yugas but ascribe to them different names (Kalpas) and numbers of years. Similarly, the Jains have not four but twelve ages (six of decline and six of progress). It is clear, therefore, that they did not borrow their system from Aryabhatta. If Jains and Buddhists did not borrow their ages from Ary abhatta, why should we suspect the Hindus of doing it? A more plausible explanation is that the concept of Yugas or Kalpas formed part of established Indian culture which took different different forms in different different traditions traditions and different different historical historical periods. periods. Aryabhatta himself may have calculated the beginning of Kali Yuga, Yuga, length of Maha Yuga, Yuga, etc., in consonance with established Hindu tradition. In fact, you yourself are implicitly admitting this in your statement that "Maya the mleccha, after having understood the ethos of the Hindus". In other words, Maya had knowledge of Hindu traditions. Nor can we escape the fact that 4320000 represents the number of years covered by a precessional lag of 60 degrees, that is 4320, multiplied by 1000. In summation, the following may be stated: 1.

There is insufficient scientific evidence in support of the view that the belief in recurrent or cyclical universes is contrary to fact.

2.

The Catur Yuga system of timekeeping is as scientifically sound as the conventional method. In addition, it is spiritually meaningful.

3.

There is no logical or scientific reason why we should not calculate Kali Yuga as commencing 5109 years ago. Are the western ages of CE (AD) and BCE (BC) any more scientific? Considering that Christ probably never existed, e xisted, I think not.

It follows from the above facts that there are insufficient grounds to reject either the Catur Yuga system or the Kali Samvat calendar. Last but not least, I wish to thank Sri Sreenadh ji for the valuable contribution regarding the "Nalika" and "Mleccha". These are valid points which must be taken into consideration. The Indian tradition of "Nalika/Nazhika/Ghatika" in conjunction with six seasons of 60 days each, 360360-day day year, year, etc. etc. as foun found d in the the Rig Rig Veda eda demon demonst strat rates es the the exis existe tenc ncee of sexa sexage gesi sima mall timekeeping long before Greek/Babylonian influence. This tradition is in harmony with both the 360 degrees of the equinoctial precession and the Catur Yuga Yuga system. Regarding the Arthashastra, irrespective of the author's or commentator's name, the translator L. N. Rangarajan opines, on the the internal evidence of the text itself, that it is is "not later than 150 150 A. D."

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which clearly places it before the time of Aryabhatta. As pointed out by the late Prof. Joseph Campbell (1962), the "Mlecchas" were probably the Ancient Meluhhans with which Ancient Mesopotamia traded ivory, wood and copper as far back as 2350 BC. Thus mutual cultural exchange between India and Mesopotamia (which also had a sexagesimal number-system) seems to be demonstrated. It explains the many similarities scholars have noted between the two cultures and excludes the need of Babylonian influence on India via the Greeks. Indeed, if we consider that Ancient India included Pakistan and Afghanistan, it is clear that the two cultures, India and Sumer, were practically next-door neighbors. Perhaps the two cultures developed a system of timekeeping jointly after which the Sumerians emphasized sexagesimal calculation with some decimal elements whereas India emphasized decimal calculation with some sexagesimal elements, in particular, in timekeeping. Sreenadh:

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The mention of Yuga related number 4320000000 is present in the Vedas itself.

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"Nalika/Nazhika/Ghatika". It does not end there - the standard word used to indicate the same even in current day Sanskrit is 'Nadika' and the 1/60th subdivision subdivision is termed 'Vinadika'. 'Vinadika'.

Rememb Remember er the Rigved Rigvedic ic sloka sloka which which could could be read 'Agnim 'Agnimeele eele purohi purohitam tam'' or 'Agnim 'Agnimeede eede purohitam'. 'la-da yorabheda' (la and da are the same and is interchangable) is the vyakarana suggestion concerning the same. Thus Nalika is nothing but today's Nadika, 1/60 th of the day. It is erroneous even to compare this word loaded with tradition with the new born child of Hindi language 'Ghatika'. :) Yes, those who are viewing things superfluously like Koul ji, and want to be satisfied with that may take 'Ghatika/Khatika' and discard the 'Nalika/Nadika' as of now value possibly his view is blurred, with pre-conceived notions.

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Asuras lived at the other side of Sarasvati (Ghakkar-Hakkra) river. Sea lord Varuna was their major lord, and they worshiped Mitra, Siva, Azhura Medha (Ahur Mazda) etc as well. They used the word Deva to denote bad (devilish) people; and used the term 'Rakshasa' against them as well (as proved by archeological evidences). Adharva and Avesta could be part of their Vedas. This is the Agama (the one which came) culture which came to the Kashmir valley and settled there for long (as evident from Harappan site), and practiced Yoga and Tantra. This tradition gave importance to Yoga Yoga than Yaga; Yaga; and covered a very vast region of earth including Babylonia, Assyria, and Harappa, Cambodia etc for long - branching into various traditions and groups. Thus this culture covered Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Greece and many more countries in this region as per current map.

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Suras lived at this side of Sarasvati river, and their land is known as Brahmavarta. Indra was their major lord, and they worshiped Mitra, Vishnu etc as well. They used the word Asura to denote bad people; and used the term 'Rakshasa' against them as well. Trayi veda (Rig, Yajur, Sama) was their Vedas. This is the Nigama (the one which flowed out) culture which flowed out from the Sarasvati region to the Ganges planes; especially to Nepal/Bihar. Khalibengan archeological site belongs to this culture, and they practiced Yaga. Yaga. Unlike asuras, this tradition usuall usually y avoide avoided d sea travel travel,, but succeed succeeded ed in preservi preserving ng their their sacred sacred texts texts,, langua language ge and knowledge through the Vedic literature.

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Both the above cultures are very Indian in nature. Apart from them the Contributions of Buddha religion originated around BC 1800 and the Jain religion which has the same antiquity

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as Vedas edas (Ris (Risha habh bhaa deva deva is ment mentio ione ned d in Vedas edas)) shou should ld be valu valued ed;; alon along g with with the the contributions of many other streams including Dravidians of south India. Quote Indeed, if we consider that Ancient India included Pakistan and Afghanistan, it is clear that the two cultures, India and Sumer, were practically next-door neighbors. Perhaps the two cultur cultures es develo developed ped a system system of timeke timekeepi eping ng jointl jointly y after after which which the Sumeria Sumerians ns emph emphas asiz ized ed sexa sexages gesim imal al calcu calcula lati tion on with with some some deci decima mall eleme element ntss wher whereas eas India India emphas emphasiz ized ed decima decimall calcul calculati ation on with with som somee sexages sexagesim imal al elemen elements, ts, in parti particul cular ar,, in timekeeping. Unquote I would better like to say Suras (Indians) and Asuras (Pakistan, Afghanistan, Babylonia, Assyria etc) shared many common c ommon elements of culture and great rivalry; even though they where next door neighbors neighbors to each other; but one never destroyed destroyed the other, but rather rather merged into into one another later in India at least. But sadly the major Asura cultural streams failed to preserve their ancient texts and history, even though the Tantra and Yoga Yoga got preserved preser ved and handed over to us even to the current generation. The sexagesimal system, predictive astrology, signs such as Mesha, Surya siddhanta etc are all contributions contributions of this culture. culture. Even texts like like Parasurama Kalpasutra, Sulba sutra etc could be the contribution of this culture as well. Only the Egyptian culture could have more antiquity than these cultures. Note that the living tribes and people gains a mythical nature after much time only; only ; the same happened with Suras and Asuras by the time compilation of Vedas, Vedas, Mahabharata etc; indicating that much time flowed below the bridge prior to that itself. :) P.S: Kaul ji, please note that there is nothing in the texts that are attributed to Yavana Astrologers (Spujidhwaja, Meenaraja etc) that indicates a Greek origin. Gujarat is Zourashtra; the land to which the people of Zourashtrar came; and the gods worshiped by Meenaraja in his text is Siva as the protector or Yamala!! – Is it not clear that it is Agama/Tantric culture with Afghanic/AncientIranian Iranian/Ha /Harap rappan pan roots roots?? The same same goes true true for Sphuji Sphujidhw dhwaja aja who too too reflect reflectss the vedic vedic knowledge. Just based on the name, and the word `Yavana' please don't misinterpret them as Greeks; the word `yavana' has a long history and as per Sukraneeti the word means `Non-vedic theist/gnostic people'; i.e. people who don't value the Vedas (Trayi veda – Rig, Yajur, Sama) but who believe in god. Any individual who fits into this definition is Yavana. Yavana. Yes, Yes, normally `Yavana' `Yavana' is a Mlechha (foreigner; Harappan; Individual living outside India, beyond the Sarasvati river). The names Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja could be Zourashtrian names written in Sanskrit. Ishwardas Ishwardas Prakash:

It is imperative to understand that we cannot blame everything on Aryabhatta, nor can we re-invent Hindu tradition on the basis of what we believe our ancestors to have borrowed from him, in particular, in the absence of conclusive evidence. As pointed out by G. Ifrah I frah in his Universal History of Numbers, Volume Volume II, p. 1000, "from what is known today, it is impossible to establish whether there is any link between Aryabhatta's yugas and the cosmic periods of the Mediterranean world" or "whether it was a spontaneous idea, or drawn from a revival of the reat Year 432,000 years long of the Babylonian astronomer Berossus, or even inspired by a wholly verbal, strictly arithmetical speculation." In other words, from a scholarly viewpoint, the evidence is insufficient to conclusively attribute the Hindu Yugas to either Aryabhatta or the Babylonians. On strict logic, if the Sumerians discovered the precession of the equinoxes and the associated Great Year, so could have their

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Indian neighbors. What is the evidence that Hindu Yugas are derived from Aryabhatta’s theories? Aryabhatta does equate 1 Maha Yuga with 4320000 years which is the same as the traditional Hindu Maha Yuga (= Catur Yuga). However, as we shall presently see, this does not constitute proof for the purpose of the present discussion. For, we know from historical evidence that the Babylonians had a Great Year of 432000 years already at the time of the priest and astronomer Berossus (4th-3rd century BC). Thus the figure 432000 was not of Aryabhatta's own creation. Indeed, 4320 is the number of years required by the precessional lag to cover 60 degrees. As Professors H. V. Hilprecht (1906) and J. Campbell (1962) pointed out, the Sumerians had probab probably ly recogni recognized zed the equino equinocti ctial al precess precessio ion n "as early early as the third third or perhap perhapss even fourth fourth millennium B. C." Historical evidence also shows that Ancient Sumer and Ancient India maintained trade links with each other in the third millennium BC. Apart from the geographical proximity to each other, especially among neighbors like Sumer and India, trade links usually involve diplomatic and cultural links. Thus it cannot be claimed that Sumer and India were culturally, scientifically and technologically completely isolated from each other. On the contrary, if the Sumerians had knowledge of the precession of the equinoxes in the fourth or third millennium BC as Hilprecht and Campbell suggested, then by the time of Aryabhatta Indians had had over two millennia time to either learn about the precession of the equinoxes and related Great Year Year of 432000 years y ears from their Sumerian neighbors or discover it for themselves! On the evidence of astronomic monuments found in Europe (Goseck, Germany) and elsewhere, we know that prehistoric man had accurate knowledge of solstices and equinoxes as long ago as 5000 5000 BC. Knowle Knowledge dge of equino equinoxe xess logica logically lly resulte resulted d in knowle knowledge dge of the precess precession ion of the equinoxes. And knowledge of the precession of the equinoxes e quinoxes logically resulted in the figure 4320 which is the number of years required by the precessional lag to reach 60 degrees. Thus 4320 naturally became a unit of time which when multiplied by 100, resulted in 432000, that is the Babylonian Great Year and, when multiplied by 1000, resulted in 4320000, that is the Hindu Maha Yuga. It is of course legitimate to raise the question as to what was so special about 60 degrees. The answer is that 60 was a special number due to the fact that, for millennia, time had been measured in two- month spans of 60 days. One of the reasons for this was that a lunar day is shorter than the standard day by 1/30th causing a loss of one day every two months. To make up for this loss, one day would have been added every two months months to the total total number number of days counted. counted. This This resulted resulted in the establish establishment ment of a two-month period (= 60 days) as a unit of time – hence also the Hindu year of 6 seasons of 60 days each. As G. Ifrah has shown, the sexagesimal number-system is also linked with the non-literate form of finger-counting whereby the right thumb is used to count the phalanxes of the four remaining fingers of that hand. Discounting the thumb, there are four fingers of three phalanxes each, giving a total total of twelve phalanxes phalanxes representi representing ng twelve units of whatever whatever it is that we are counting. counting. The left hand is then used to count twelve units for each of the five fingers resulting in the sum of sixty (12 x 5 = 60). 60 is also important due to the fact that 60 months equals 5 years (of 12 months each): 5 x 12 = 60. Thus 60 naturally lent itself to both integer-counting and timekeeping. Now, Now, sexagesimal counting counting combined with knowledge knowledge of the equinoctial equinoctial

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prece precess ssio ion n natu natura rall lly y resu result lted ed in a time time unit unit of 4320 4320 years years.. It is an accep accepte ted d fact fact that that the the precessional lag is 1 degree in 72 years. Thus 72 x 60 = 4320. As already observed, observed, 4320 when multiplied multiplied by 100 results results in 432000 years (1 Babylonian Babylonian Great Year = 1 Hindu Kali Yuga) and when multiplied by 1000 results in 4320000 years (1 Hindu Maha Yuga or Catur Yuga). Indeed, even without knowledge of the equinoctial precession, the figure 4320 may be arrived at as follows. It is common knowledge that the Sumerians divided their year into 72 five-day weeks (to which which they they added added five five days at the end of the year). year). If we now multip multiply ly 72 By the basic numeral 60, we obtain 4320, that is the number of weeks comprised in a span of 60 years. y ears. More specifically, the question which must be asked is whether there is any simple and obvious way in which 4320 may be arrived at on the basis of numbers pertaining to Hindu tradition as given, for example, in the Vedas. If the answer is in the affirmative, then there will be no need to attribute it to Aryabhatta, Babylonians or any other extraneous source. The fact is that, in the Rig Veda, Mandala 1, 164:11-12, we find the number 720 which evidently stands for 360 days and 360 nights of a year, as well as "six-spoked car" which refers to the six seasons. Multiplying six seasons by 720 we obtain 4320: 6 x 720 = 4320. The same may also be obtained by multiplying 360 (days of the year) by 12 (months, etc.): 360 x 12 = 4320. We We know that the the Catur Yuga Yuga is said to last 12000years of the Gods. If we multiply 12000 by 360 we obtain 4320000 years. Thus the number 4320000 may be obtained through very simple arithmetical calculations in more than one way. In any case, these calculations are very easy to understand if we remember to apply the sexagesimal number-system. It is therefore unreasonable to claim that Indians who had created the Indus and Saraswati Civilization millennia millennia ago would have been incapable of making the same discoveries as their Sumerian Sumer ian neighbors and had to wait for Maya, Aryabhatta and the Greeks to enlighten them! Considering that India has a long tradition of knowledge transmitted orally from guru to shishya, I am personally inclined to the view that – as suggested by G. Ifrah – Aryabhatta himself must have been influenced by certain ce rtain strands of such oral tradition. The presence of such a tradition in India is suggested by two facts: 1. The term "Yuga" "Yuga" is found f ound in Hindu Sastras predating Aryabhatta; Ary abhatta; 2. The Hindu Yugas Yugas are not the same as those of Aryabhatta; Arya bhatta; for while the Hindu Yugas amount to 432000, 864000, 1296000 and 1728000 respectively, Aryabhatta's are all equal in length, namely, 1080000 years, hence the Hindu Yugas must have originated elsewhere. It is an established fact that one of the principal differences between Sumerian and Indian civilizations was that while the former recorded everything in writing, the latter relied on oral communication. The very nature of oral tradition explains the apparent absence of the Yugas in written texts.

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However, as remarked earlier, a tradition revolving re volving on Yugas Yugas as long periods of time is already found in the Atharva Veda Veda and the Gita. The Atharva Veda Veda says: "A hundred years, ten thousand years, year s, two, three, four Ages (Yugas) (Yugas) do we allot to you" y ou" (VIII.2.21). (VIII .2.21). If we combine this with what we know about sexagesimal counting and timekeeping it becomes apparent a pparent that the Catur Yuga system must have formed part of Hindu tradition from the very ver y beginning. I have thus demonstrated that: (a) far from being irrational invention, the Maha Yuga or Catur Yuga is natural, logical, scientific, and based on accurate astronomical observation; and (b) it was not invented by Aryabhatta. What remains to be established is why Kali Yuga is said to have begun on the traditional date of 18 February 3102 BC. Should a valid explication for this date be established, there would be no more reason to object to it than there is for objecting to the western A.D.-B.C. (or C.E.-B.C.E.) eras. Sreenadh:

Aryabhata was a Jain as is clear from the mention of Jain style system of 'Yuga that is Apasarpini' in Aryabhateeya. His yuga is of the proportion 1:1:1:1 and is a deviation from the 4:3:2:1 style of the Indian system. Many tried hard to ascribe the knowledge of Aryabhata (Note arya bhatta; but only bhata) to brahmins - even by misinterpreting his words. The circumference of earth provided by any astronomer would be based on the measurements made at his native place; and this clear logic can give the BT latitude of any astronomer who provided the circumference of earth. Bye this logic Aryabhata lived in Kerala 10 deg 55 min. I would say that in a way Kaul ji's retort against Aryabhata is good - because we should know that it base based d on the the Aryab Aryabha hata ta's 's yuga yuga sys syste tem m and and refer referen ence ce to bhara bharata ta that that peop people le deri derive ve the the Mahabharata war year to be 3102 BC! �

Bharata (a king's name; Brother of Bahubali) is misinterpreted to Maha bhaarata war! If this lone reference is gone - the year BC 3102 ascribed to Mahabharta war becomes baseless!!

So I would suggest that Kaul ji should keep up his fight against ag ainst Aryabhatta; Yuga Yuga and what not! :) As an outcome of course new facts will come up. With the Devanagari script that came up and become popular just around AD 200 - 400; and a made up books and history these brahmins had made mess of indian history already! Ofcourse this mess would be cleared at least to an extend and the real contri contribut bution ionss of many many inclu includi ding ng Harapp Harappans ans;; Jains; Jains; Buddhi Buddhist sts; s; Zouras Zourashtr htrian ians; s; Babylonians etc will come up. Suresh Balaraman:

The word Mleccha: my understanding of the the word is just, just, that people people outside outside of Bharath, nothing nothing derogatory about it-simply termed foreigners!! AK Kaul: The word "mlechha" is found in the very first indigenous work of mundane astrology viz. Brihat Samhita by the very first indigenous astrologer viz. Varahamihira of 5th century AD. He has said,

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and I quote – "yavanah hi mlechha, teshu samyak shastram idam sthitam rishivat te-api pujyante, kim punar veda-vid dvijah" "Yavanas are mlechhas and this 'science' (of predictive astrology) is well ingrained in them. As such, even they, (in spite of being mlechhas) are treated as Rishis". Everybody knows that by Yavanas he meant the Greeks since he has referred to several of them like Maya, Manitha etc. and at several places, he has just said "Yavanah OOchuh", i.e. "This is what the yavanas say". The author of the Surya Siddhanta, viz. Maya has referred to himself as "Asura". The literal meaning of that word is "some one whose nature is contrary to that of suras i.e. he is an anti-god"! This asura word is sometimes said to mean rakshasas also. That That is why why I call call the the Surya Surya Sidd Siddha hant ntaa a work work of Maya the the mlech mlechha ha,, sinc sincee that that is what Varahamihira has called the Yavanas. It also means that the very first work of planetary astronomy of India had been compiled by an Asura! We would have discarded that work several centuries back, but he hoodwinked us by saying that the knowledge of planetary science had been revealed to him by sun-god as he had pleased Him by Tapasya! The Greeks themselves made a lot of progress in astronomy and corrected their fundamental arguments etc. with the passage of time. But by taking a subterfuge of pleasing Sun-god by Tapasya, we were left with an astronomical work which is a disaster in every sense of the word, since neither are the fundamental arguments of planets, nor the basic tenets nor even the observed positi positions ons correct correct in any manner manner whatso whatsoeve everr. This This can be checked checked by anybody anybody by "Mahes "Mahesh" h" program. On the other hand, we have been saddled with an imaginary Kaliyuga by the same siddhanta since as per the SS, the mean longitudes of all the planets were zero at the start of Kaliyuga, which is actually an astronomical impossibility! impossibility! Being under the hypnosis hy pnosis of "Tapasya", "Tapasya", we have never questioned its accuracy either, though there is absolutely no reference to such a date of Kaliyuga in any Purana or Itihiasa etc., leave alone the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha! We do not even realize that by claiming that Kaliyuga started in 3102 BC, the Vedanga Jyotisha must have been a later Kaliyuga work then! Similarly, all the siddhantas like Pitamaha etc. are also Kaliyugi works then! It is not, therefore, surprising at all that Varahamihira has called the Surya Siddhanta by such a "mlechha" the most accurate siddhanta! It must have been a cipher among blinds! That statement of Varahamihira Varahamihira will give y ou some idea as a s to how accurate a ccurate his predictions could be! No wonder, Varahamihira Varahamihira is the role model of today's astrologers! Sreenadh:

The first step itself is wrong. :) "yavanah hi mlechha, teshu samyak shastram idam sthitam rishivat te-api pujyante, kim punar veda-vid dvijah" These are not the words of Mihira but a Garga, and this is quoted by Brihat Samhita, Adbhuta Sagara etc. As per the available quote Garga about seasons available in Adbhuta Sagara the period of Garga should be around BC 1400. Also note that Garga was a Jain Sage, and in some of his quotes he mentions Buddha, pushing the dates of origin of Jain and Buddha religion back to the very Vedic period itself. :)

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Don't mind Brihat samhita - the word 'Mlechha' finds its mention in many other texts including Sukra Neeti (An Asura text) which is mentioned in Mahabharata itself. The number of slokas in Sukra neeti is also given in Mahabharata with matches with the today available Sukra Neeti indicating that it is an uncorrupted text! If even texts like Sukra Neeti, Arthasastra, Boudhayana sulba sutra, Adharva vedeeya Jyotisham, Vedas Vedas etc mention - Mlechha, Yavana, Week days, Signs such as Mesha, Yuga Yuga system etc; how are you going to safe guard your funny belief in the "origin of the word Mlechha" AFTER Mihira?! Dear Kaul ji, I don't have anything against your researches, and appreciate your efforts - but wonder how some of your y our groundless beliefs in ideas such as �

Origin of Yuga Yuga after Aryabhata

�

Origin of the word 'Mlechha' after Mihira

�

Nakshatra divisions the boundaries of which continuously get modified (This is against Vedic Vedic knowledge!)

* The meaning of the word 'Yavana' 'Yavana' is Greek etc Only an individual who fail to see se e the depths can argue that the sexagesimal division system (such as 1/60 division of day etc) was not present prior to Aryabhata etc. But I hope, in the light of the lesson provided by the revealing history of the word Ghatika (the new born Hindi baby) and its forefather `Nalika/Nadika/Nazhika'; You will see the possible better understanding an in-depth meaning and vastness of the subjects under discussion; in a better way. Quote No reference to such a date of Kaliyuga in any Purana or Itihiasa etc., leave alone the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha! Unquote How can you be so absurd in arguments! - Kali Yuga Yuga is mentioned even in Vatmiki Vatmiki Ramayana and Mahabharata; as well as in most of the Puranas! Ofcourse Yuga is a mathematical concept rather than a reality. Without associating it with the precession, how you are going to understand it, I wonder! You cannot discard the existence of this mathematical concept in ancient time - due to the availability of evidence; but still they don't represent human years either – I agree. -0-

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The Astronomical Basis of the Catur Yuga - AIA

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