Interview with the King. Grand Master General Shiva X Conducted by Brother Giuseppe & Sister Tikky Zappia Alpha and Omega Lodge Lodge Ordo Templi Orientis South Australia Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
1. It being a given that O.T.O. is a Fraternal, globally unified Body; what do you feel to be the distinguishing and or principal features that differentiate the Grand Lodge of Australia from the other Grand Lodges? This perhaps in regards to the way we go about achieving the aims of the O.T.O., or just in general. Well - to be brief about it as I could keep talking for a week on this one - I think AUGL has explicitly affirmed the close alliance with the A.’.A.’. and made A.’.A.’. both visible and accessible to our members. This has brought with it, it’s own Blessings - unique doctrinal insights that we teach down here. And this alliance extends to practical support. This year as you may know we are bringing out Daniel Gunther, a senior instructor of A.’.A.’., for a spiritual retreat - most attendees being OTO; this will be Daniel’s second visit here; and next year Grand Lodge is actively answering the call to assist the Outer College with the resources to establish a Temple here in Australia. This gets to our core mission of making Initiation into Thelema accessible and operational in Australia, and our Asia-Pacific region. Besides this, if you go to our website http://www.otoaustralia.org.au/#!essays--articles/c1wim I have an article there called Aurora Australis which shows in one section how I received insights unique to Australia about how we should constitute the Grand Lodge. I tend to summarise this as the five fold plan of Lodge, Chapter, Church, Senate & Syllabus wherever we organise ourselves. These correspond to the five powers of the sphinx and the fivefold plan of Liber OZ. There’s a stack of other things I should say, but really can’t in a public forum - we have nuances and differences in the way we organise internal OTO dynamics such as authorisations and whatnot. We’re also the only Grand Lodge duly authorised by the Frater Superior and the Areopagus Areopagus to have national Guilds Guilds - and our art guild guild has been been a massive, massive, global global success, see see http://www.collective777.com!
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Finally I should mention we have a specific focus on the Church and to develop this into a public facing service with recognised (legal) denominational status. In particular, we are trying to focus on vocationally driven Clergy and establishing public Temples, like you have in Adelaide for example, with all the responsibilities, management and opportunities that go with it: see http:// www.egcadelaide.com/#!about-us/cjg9 I’ll leave it there for now.
2. Do you foresee the Modus of Scientific Illuminism that is extant throughout the System of the O.T.O., along with its Philosophy and Theurgy, ever making its way into mainstream Academia, or perhaps even taught in Universities as a (specialist) branch of Metaphysics or Science per se? If this is to happen in an Australian context, it is so far away as to be an extremely speculative subject to spend too much time thinking about. Hell, you can’t even study Jung here in higher education - at least substantively or in a doctoral or research sense. And we don’t really have the broad diversity you see in, say, US Graduate programs, where you can get many metaphysical programs on offer. More importantly, while there may be some broad similarities, I think the pedagogy of Scientific Illuminism and that of the Academy are inherently distinct, despite some overlaps in institutions such as Academia Ordo Templi Orientis. I’m more focussed on being involved in this Academy & learning from the esteemed academics in it, and seeing our Philosophy and Theurgy robustly taught in the Hermetic Science College of the OTO (for the way things are going it’s only a matter of time before we launch the College) than in pondering any greater foray into mainstream Academia. I’d also like to see us really interrogate analytical psychology (and related fields) to create a new means of studying and articulating our Philosophy and Theurgy - that is something I’ve started doing, and of course you have people like Daniel Gunther out there, whose ‘aeonic psychology’ (a term I coined for his teachings) is I think an extremely important intellectual contribution to what you’re describing as the ‘Modus of Scientific Illuminism.’ In a very unique OTO sense, I’m also very keen to see us study the works of Alfred Adler. I think that Adler will be to OTO, what Jung can be to A.’.A.’. I was totally blown away by my friend Toby Churton’s book The Beast in Berlin - I’d never appreciated before just how deep Crowley was into - and liked as a person to hang with - Adler. And I think there’s a lot we can learn and embed into our scholarship from Adler’s Gemeinschaftsgefühl - social feeling. Now seeing you’ve mentioned metaphysics, I hope you won’t mind me quoting you some Adler think of the OTO during this: "Social feeling means above all a struggle for a communal form that must be thought of as eternally applicable... when humanity has attained its goal of perfection... an ideal society amongst all mankind, the ultimate fulfilment of evolution...I see no reason to be afraid of metaphysics; it has had a great influence on human life and development. We are not blessed
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with the possession of absolute truth; on that account we are compelled to form theories for ourselves about our future, about the results of our actions, etc. Our idea of social feeling as the final form of humanity - of an imagined state in which all the problems of life are solved and all our relations to the external world rightly adjusted - is a regulative ideal, a goal that gives our direction. This goal of perfection must bear within it the goal of an ideal community, because all that we value in life, all that endures and continues to endure, is eternally the product of this social feeling.” Okay - I’m getting carried away. Next question!
3. What is your vision for the future in regards to the establishment of the “Centre for Duplexed Studies”, and what exactly does that mean? The name I’m envisioning is actually the Centre for Studies in Duplexity. I’m going to quote directly from a talk I am preparing to deliver in Italy in a few weeks time - Duplexity is an archetype, just keep that in mind: “I define its function in the New Aeon as the passionate union of opposites. In particular, we apply this function to the two Orders, OTO and A.’.A.’.. Duplex comes from ‘duo’ two and ‘plicare’ to wind, to coil, to fold up together. So Duplexity is a perspective that sees the Orders as working together in close alliance. We hold that there is an archetypal truth behind this, which when encountered leads to new perspectives about that close alliance. These perspectives collectively become a unique logical dimension or universe of discourse - a way some of us approach Initiation in the Aeon of the Child. The term Duplexity was coined by my friend, brother and comrade in arms Dathan Biberstein of the US OTO. Dathan wrote a seminal essay a few years ago that inspired Daniel Gunther and myself to lecture together on Duplexity in Tokyo in 2011, since which time research into the subject has gone global…Dathan coined the term Duplexity from Crowley’s encounter with the archetype in 1915 - so post the Paris Working and during the process of reconstituting the Order. This encounter occurred as a result of working the Ceremony of the Equinox. This Ceremony is a sexual Opus of the A.’.A.’. to obtain the Word of the Masters for the Equinox...In the 1915 working Crowley recorded…”Duplex was placed in my mind with a clarity and certitude that I have never previously known...It is a word of mystic marriage of A.’.A.’. and OTO.: That’s another way you could define Duplexity - the mystic marriage of A.’.A.’. and OTO.” That’s enough of the quote. Keep in mind that talk on Duplexity clocks in at 20,000 words! So the above is at best a slight overview. But in the language of Duplexity as a discipline or doctrine, Daniel Gunther and I refer to this as the Grand Experiment of the Secret Chiefs Daniel coined that. The notion of running two Systems for the Aeon simultaneously. The Centre, once we set that up, will really be a body for the global dissemination of research and knowledge exchange in this specialist subject - so a research network if you like for the aspirants of OTO and A.’.A.’. exploring this Experiment. I envision things like holding
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conferences and publishing proceedings, journals, that kind of thing, while developing the Scientific Illuminist pedagogy and methodologies best fitted to this universe of discourse.
4. Do you feel that O.T.O. Australia will see the fulfilment and certain establishment of Baphomet’s Liber CI and Liber CXCIV in our lifetime? Of course - we’re already on that trajectory. I’d be cautious about locking us in to 100 year old Constitutional documents though! The challenge is to get to the body of the garment beneath the text and adapt with the times where you need to. You also need to locate these documents within their proper context - where Baphomet was at with the OTO at that particular time, which usually means what Grade was he in A.’.A.’. at that time. His perspectives on the OTO develop over time according to his particular spiritual outlook and historical context. In other words, it’s not as simple as just implementing what a constitutional paper says. It needs to be thought through on multiple levels.
5. What was the initial spark of inspiration if you will, that led to your collaborating and Lecturing with Brother J.Daniel Gunther? Well, the spark was actually Daniel himself! He just said to me one day on his first Australian visit that we should go and “light a fire in the East together.” So, with our close Brother Hiroyukisan and the good brethren of Japan, we organised some joint lectures in the East. In Tokyo to be precise. And we lit a fire! It was during that process that the whole Duplexity thing came down and we both lectured about that from the distinct perspectives of the OTO and the A.’.A.’. !!!
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And men began to light fires upon the earth. (Liber 27)
6. With the Period of Speech (to phrase it one way) that we have witnessed issuing from the Mouth of the A.’.A.’., and largely due to your own personal efforts, do you feel that we are close to healing the rift and repairing the damage that was done (likely due to the clash of the Titans i.e. Motta and McMurtry) to the relationship between A.’.A.’. and O.T.O.? Thus bringing it back in to line with 666’s original design? I think we’re getting there, slowly, but my work benefits from how blessed I am to stand on the shoulders of my elders, giants who in different ways have been working on this a lot longer than me - people like Daniel, Hymenaeus Beta, Jim Wasserman plus these days there are a LOT more, as you probably know even just from within Australia. To call a spade a spade though while you have leaders, even national leaders at times, subscribing to the fallacy of supposed
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A.’.A.’. ‘lineages’ or ‘variants’, or where the pretenders and their groups are culturally enmeshed into local or even national OTO operations, things are going to be sensitive and problematic. You pointed out to me that old quote from Jim a few weeks ago, remember? Let me read it back to you now:
“ I think the greatest failure of O.T.O. has been our unwillingness to publicly criticize the modern fallacy of A.’.A.’. “lineages.” I appreciate the thinking behind this – allowing people maximum freedom to make choices, including bad choices. But I believe we have a doctrinal obligation to point out pretenders, misguided spiritual interpretations, and erroneous behaviour.” I’m with Jim on that one, frankly. 7. What do you think is the biggest challenge that O.T.O. Australia is going to have to face in the next decade? That is a hard one to pinpoint - every aspect of the Work is a big challenge! Basically we just need to keep Going - developing the fivefold plan of Lodge, Chapter, Senate, Church and Syllabus in our operational Centres - keep the constitutional, ecclesiastical, legal, publishing and educational apparatus developing; establish profess-houses; retain our members; develop our resources, finances, and numbers, as well as membership capacity; keep having fun; enjoy sustainability, quality and inherited succession of leadership; have a professional marketing outreach and visibility in our communities and over our media; keep up and promote the arts as well as scholarly rigour in our studies; have a tight, close but diverse membership where the bonds of the OTO are truly upheld; develop the Triads; preserve the Secret of the Sovereign Sanctuary and make provision for its research and archive. We’re also now at a level of organisational maturation here that some of our elder members are hitting middle or old age, retirement, or illness, so we also have to be mindful, organisationally, of developing the fraternal networks and support resources to help out how we can. We’re a small organisation in a country that comparatively speaking has a small population - Thelema is in many respects a challenge in itself here, let alone a Thelemic initiating and membership organisation. At the Executive level of OTO - so this is my work with Robert and Adam - we talk of (the symbolic) ‘500 man march’ - that the challenge for us will be getting our first 500 members. But once there we say we’ll be able to feed the 5000 - that’s our metaphor for 5000 members. I guess the 500 is a challenge for the next decade.
8. How far away do you feel the Gnostic Catholic Church is from securing denominational status and being legally recognized as a religious entity in this country? And what are some sure steps that we can take in this direction? I can’t really say how far away we are - we need to have a constructive and ongoing dialogue with the Government, and I think it may take some time to a) get across who we are and what we do, but also b) develop our own facilities to meet their established indicia and criteria. You see, religion is treated strangely in Australia - this is due to section 116 of our Constitution which I want to quote to you:
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“The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.” So, when we were litigating a few years ago and an argument was put forward that Thelema was an unlawful religion the Judge threw it out immediately. And the taxation office recognises us as a non-profit religious institution. However, recognised denominational status is handled by a separate limb of government. These things take time - it’s about fostering a mutual understanding and dialogue. And we have to take the high road and be realistic. What we can do now is establish our public Temples - as I’ve authorised this year, as you would know in Adelaide and in Fremantle. Your readers can look at the websites: http://www.egcfremantle.com/ http://www.egcadelaide.com/ The Temples need vocationally driven Clergy - as we have in Adelaide and Fremantle - who can reach out to Congregations spanning all ages, a broad and diverse Church, of OTO members and others, with Clergy who are able to meaningfully engage with their congregation. To truly function as Priests and Priestesses within communities - to be there for their community. This is entirely distinct to treating the Mass or the Church as an insular OTO local body event. And it’s an entirely different class of Clergy I am talking about here. Where we are operational I want to build Churches and family friendly ecclesiastical communities. I see enormous potential here we need to grow into it, but this field of Our Lord is fertile and just waiting for us to cultivate over time. We also need a quality episcopate and we’re doing what we can to up the education across the Board. So, I lean heavily on Bishop Tau Amrit who is coordinating EGC operations and managing our online EGC eLearning portal. And every second year we now have an EGC Retreat really just for the Clergy of EGC, recognised or novitiate. These plans will develop over time but work in tandem with the recognised denomination work. 9. If you had to narrow down your years of experience to form one concise piece of advice that you could offer to our younger Brethren as they trudge through what can be a quite trying Man of Earth, what would it be? Actively participate in the OTO experience. Study our System - well, in our prescribed official editions of our literature and rituals, rather than from online forums or pirated editions of our literature or our Secrets. Meditate on the Holy Books of Thelema. Observe our Oaths. Walk humbly. Walk humbly. Walk humbly. And stick around. There’s a comment by Crowley in The Law is For All , from memory, which has always really resonated with me in relation to OTO: if we’re not enjoying our Work it is evidence we are doing it wrong. Enjoy yourselves.
10. We find many students, as they approach the Sacred Mysteries of Self, getting caught in the web that finds them screaming out for the “True Will” to hit them like a bolt of lightning or to miraculously appear before them upon a neon flashing sign as an answer to all their lifelong queries. What words of wisdom could you offer these aspirants that perhaps become enmeshed in the complex that can evolve from the pursuit of their True Will?
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If I am understanding your question correctly, I would advise attentiveness. Attentiveness to the One Word in particular. We have spoken about this before and I actually quote a letter I wrote to you in another one of my Italian talks - this one on alchemy. If you don’t mind, I want to remind you of that email - it is quoted in this part of the talk: (This commences with a discussion of LXV:5:5) “The Path of Initiation involves the transformation of the Nephesh from a state of idle wandering - to be both blind to and blinded by the Unconscious elements - to a fixed condition of attentiveness to the One Word, the allseeing Spirit emerging out of the elemental Unconscious, the darkness of the earth the yielding to the Eye of Hoor, the fiery star which at the beginning is unknown yet manifests as true Aspiration for the selfless ones who would but enflame themselves in prayer. About the time that I first drafted the original transcript of this talk, a very good friend of mine asked me about attentiveness to the One Word. We were exploring how this might be compared to discovery of the Stone of the Philosophers, and how that has been treated in the literature. If you keep in mind that I’m writing informally to a close Brother and trying to do so minus the technical detail the subject can tend to get bogged down in, I am going to resist the temptation to edit or expound and just quote exactly what I wrote. “My personal take on these things is that your Word, that one unique teaching you bring to the world, grows with the person constantly - you Understand it more and more and it develops with the person, and manifests in the work you must achieve in incarnation, which may in turn express what you have been doing for incarnations. It is a representation of Going. It is to Go. If it is True and not just a static insight - no matter how insightful - it automatically expresses itself in EVERYTHING: every facet of life, thought, deed and action. It is immortal and ever seeks to reveal more of its nature to you. It is outside of you yet wedded to you. You were meant for each other. And yet, the Word is but the image of an image that is Bliss. Every event in life is in someway a result or a lesson in it, as is every mistake. Like an Unconscious mantra forever running in the back of your head, all phenomena you experience is automatically interpreted and revealing of this Word. Your life is then singularly changed once you Understand what is going on. The Voice of Silence speaks and everything is a dealing of God with the soul. This is incommunicable, intimate, but unmistakable - it is certainty not faith. And then our tasks, obligations and ordeals merely refine the rapture.” In the language of alchemy, this is the condition of fixing the volatile to discover the secret lapis. We call this perspective and Way, Centroversion - to turn towards the centre - a combination of introversion and extroversion, yet having a character all its own - that’s the secret lapis - an independent condition. Just like the New Aeon, it distills the essence of inherited Aeons and establishes a unique, individual perspective that surpasses that inheritance - the True Will of one’s inmost True Nature. The various magical attainments and ordeals that we speak of in Thelema are all a part of that ongoing process of spiritual transformation.”
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11. Where have you come from? A brief back ground prior to joining the OTO and what lead you to this Path? How many incarnations do you want to go back? Just kidding. Let’s keep this simple - Late 70s/early 80s punk rock, political activism, reading counter-culturalists, Carl Jung, and a latent religiousity I’ve had all my life, plus my passionate, lifelong belief in the Brotherhood of Man, and in human dignity and freedom - all led me to the Order. I still distinctly remember reading Liber OZ for the first time. I had never felt so at peace and at home in what had been up until then the life of an angry young man. And I never looked back.
12. Could you sum up the experience of working on Magick Without Tears? Magick with Tears! It has been an initiation - seriously! But I am so grateful and blessed to have found a friend, collaborator and co-editor in Clint Warren, from South Africa. The man is a genius and I do not say that lightly. I am what you could call a magical editor. I have no formal training. So, working on a book like this I basically assume the godform - I have to get into Aleister’s head at the time of writing. I need to think how he is thinking and see the work with his eyes. The problem though, is Aleister’s headspace at this time was pressed, stressed, desperate, driven, illumined, frantic, panicked and worried. Let’s just say the project has thrown me and taken me to the heights and depths of all types of emotions and insights and mental states. He really gives us the full system in this book. Ultimately the experience has been one of sincere humility at the pleasure and obligation to work on this; plus guilt and regret at how long it has been taking me, if I can be honest about it - my life went to chaos as soon as I agreed to the job! Also, my extreme gratitude to Hymenaeus Beta for trusting me with such an important work in our Canon. I feel deeply obligated to humanity to do a good job. No existing edition does it credit in my view.
13. Your own personal closing words to our audience . Thanks very much for having me. Well if I could paraphrase a greater man than I will ever be: Life and Liberty are threatened everywhere. We need a watchword and a banner for the battle. We need a principle on which to reconstruct. And so: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. If you want freedom You must fight for it. If you want to fight You must organize. If you want to organize
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- join the O.T.O. Love is the law, love under will. ______________________________________________________ Conducted 2014 by Brother Giuseppe & Sister Tikky Zappia, Alpha and Omega Lodge Ordo Templi Orientis South Australia. All content remains the property of Ordo Templi Orientis and may not be reproduced without express permission of the author/s.
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